Women's Ordination: Equal but Different

Subordinate but Equal

Program transcript

Programs by Request

Participants: Pr. Stephen Bohr


Series Code: WOE

Program Code: WOE000001

00:15 Let's pray, father in heaven,
00:18 we come before Your thrown today
00:21 to ask as we have done before
00:24 for the presence of your Holy Spirit
00:26 through the ministry of Your angels
00:28 as we open Your holy word.
00:30 Help us to have open minds and hearts to receive Your word.
00:34 Remove from us any preconceived ideas that we might have
00:38 that we might be able to hear Your voice and Your voice only.
00:42 And we thank you for the privilege of prayer
00:44 and for hearing us for we ask it in Jesus' name, amen.
00:52 The title of our study today is
00:55 "Subordinate but Equal, the divine model."
00:59 And I would like to begin by formulating two questions
01:03 that will set the stage for what we are going to discuss.
01:07 Question number one is this.
01:09 Is it possible for two persons to be ontologically equal
01:15 that as equal as beings
01:18 to have the same abilities and capacities
01:22 and yet to fulfill different roles in ministry?
01:26 Once again, very important question.
01:29 Is it possible for two persons to be equal as beings
01:34 and yet to have the same abilities and capacities
01:38 and have different roles in ministry?
01:41 The second question that I would like to ask is this.
01:45 Is it possible for two people to be ontologically equal,
01:49 that means equal as beings
01:52 and yet functionally have one be in subjection to the other?
01:58 In other words, is it possible for two beings to be equal
02:01 and yet have one of those beings be subject to the other?
02:07 Now, there are two women that have written a book,
02:11 the name of the book is "All we're Meant to Be,
02:15 a Biblical Approach to Women's Liberation,"
02:18 page 110, where the two authors state
02:22 that it is absolutely impossible for two individuals to be equal
02:28 and yet have one be subordinate to another.
02:32 I would like to read a quotation from this book on page 110
02:36 where they state the following.
02:39 Many Christians thus speak of a wives
02:43 being equal to herhusband in personhood,
02:47 but subordinate in function.
02:51 However, this is just playing word games
02:55 and is a contradiction in terms.
02:58 Equality and subordination are contradictions.
03:04 In other words, what they are saying
03:05 is that it's impossible to have two beings that are equal
03:09 and yet have one be subordinate to the other.
03:13 Now in recent years some Bible scholars
03:16 among them some Seventh-day Adventist
03:19 have attempted to prove that in God's original plan,
03:23 there was never the idea of submission of Eve
03:27 to the headship of Adam but rather God intended
03:32 that they be absolutely equal not only in status
03:36 but also in their roles and in their functions.
03:41 What these scholars are saying is that only after the fall,
03:45 did God say that the wife should subject herself to her husband,
03:50 but when Jesus died on the cross,
03:53 this subjection of the wife to the husband was removed
03:58 and once again it was returned to the original status.
04:03 In short what these scholars are saying is that
04:06 although Adam and Eve were created biologically different,
04:11 Adam was not given the headship role in marriage
04:15 until the period between the fall
04:18 and the cross of Christ.
04:20 In the view of these scholars, submission on the part of wives
04:25 is a less than ideal arrangement
04:28 which was removed at the cross
04:31 and now there is neither male nor female
04:34 in the sense that husbands and wives
04:37 not only are equal in status and in value,
04:40 but they also have identical roles.
04:44 Now in this presentation today,
04:46 I would like us to take a look at this issue
04:49 from a much broader perspective
04:52 than the relationship between husbands and wives.
04:55 I would like us to take a look at this issue
04:57 from a cosmic perspective.
05:00 And once again as we examine this cosmic perspective,
05:04 we are going to answer the two questions
05:06 that we began our study with.
05:08 And I review those two questions
05:09 because they are very, very important.
05:12 Question number one is this.
05:14 Is it possible for two persons to be equal
05:18 to be involved in ministry, to possess the same abilities
05:23 and yet to have different roles or functions?
05:26 The second question is.
05:28 Is it possible for two persons to be equal as beings
05:33 and yet have one be in submission
05:36 or in subjection to the other?
05:39 In our study today we are going to take a look
05:42 at the most intimate relationship
05:44 that exists in the universe,
05:46 the relationship between God the father and God the son.
05:51 And we are going to take this as a model of the relationship
05:54 that should exist between husbands and wives.
05:58 In our study we will see very clearly
06:02 that the equality of beings
06:06 as it relates to the Father and Son,
06:09 there is no doubt that they are absolutely equal
06:13 and yet we are going to find that
06:15 Jesus Christ has subjected Himself to His Father,
06:21 not only after sin but before sin came into the universe
06:26 and Jesus will subject Himself to the authority of His Father,
06:29 even when sin is finally eradicated from the universe.
06:34 In other words even though the Father and the Son are equal
06:38 they have different functions
06:41 and even in eternity past and in eternity future,
06:44 the Son has been subject to His Father
06:48 and will be subject to His Father for ever.
06:52 Now its agreed virtually by all theologians
06:56 in the Seventh-day Adventist Church as well as
06:58 outside the Seventh-day Adventist Church,
07:00 that God the Father and Jesus Christ
07:03 are ontologically equal,
07:05 that means that they are equal as beings.
07:08 They agree that Father and Son are eternal.
07:12 Each is omnipotent, omniscient,
07:15 omnipresent and morally perfect.
07:18 And they believe this because the Bible teaches it.
07:21 Notice John 1:1 where we find this idea clearly express
07:28 that the Father and the Son are equal, they are both God.
07:32 This very well known verse says,
07:34 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
07:39 and the Word was God." Not a God but God.
07:45 In other words the Father and the Son are equally God,
07:50 from eternity, eternity past and eternity future.
07:55 So John 1:1 clearly tells us that the Father and the Son
08:00 are both God, they are equal.
08:03 There is another text in the New Testament
08:05 and there are others, we are only going to take a look
08:07 at two of them that expresses clearly
08:10 the equality of the Father and the Son.
08:13 Philippians 2:5 and 6, Philippians 2:5 and 6
08:19 Here the Apostle Paul says this,
08:21 "Have this mind among yourselves,
08:24 which is yours in Christ Jesus,
08:27 who, though he was in the form of God,
08:31 speaking of Christ, though he was in the form of God,
08:34 did not count equality with God as a thing to be grasped."
08:40 Now, somebody might wonder about the expression form of God.
08:45 Really the word form that is used there
08:47 is the Greek word morphe and it refers not to--
08:52 an outward form it refers to the substance
08:56 or the stuff that God is made of.
08:59 In other words Jesus Christ
09:00 is made of the same stuff as God the Father.
09:04 And you will notice here that before Jesus became incarnate,
09:09 He was equal with God but He did not consider equality
09:13 with God as something to be grasped
09:15 and therefore He descended and took the position of a servant.
09:19 and Philippians 2:5, 6
09:23 make it very, very clear
09:25 that God the Father and the Son are equal,
09:29 they are both God eternal, omnipotent,
09:32 omniscient, omnipresent and morally perfect.
09:36 Now, Ellen White conforms this biblical testimony
09:40 in the book "God's Amazing Grace" page 42,
09:44 we find this interesting statement from Ellen White
09:47 about the equality of the Father and the Son.
09:50 She says this, "Since the divine law
09:53 is as sacred as God himself,
09:56 only one equal with God
10:00 could make atonement for its transgression."
10:03 Notice only one equal with God
10:06 could make atonement for the transgression of law.
10:09 In the devotional book, The Faith I Live By, page 46,
10:13 Ellen White states once again
10:16 the equality of the Father and the Son.
10:19 This is what she says,
10:21 "Jesus was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent."
10:28 One further statement,
10:29 The Faith I Live By, also page 46.
10:32 This is the most powerful statement she says,
10:35 Christ was God essentially, seen as substance
10:40 or as essence in his stuff if you please.
10:43 "Christ was God essentially and in the highest sense.
10:48 He was with God from all eternity,
10:51 God over all, blessed forevermore.
10:55 The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God,
10:58 existed from eternity, a distinct person,
11:03 yet one with the Father.
11:05 He was the surpassing glory of heaven.
11:08 He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences,
11:11 and the adoring homage of the angels
11:15 was received by him as His right.
11:19 In other words, the angels worshipped Jesus as God
11:22 because that was his right.
11:24 Jesus Christ and the Father are equal, they are both God.
11:31 Now let's talk a little bit about the relationship
11:34 between God the Father and God the Son.
11:37 I want to read John 1:1 once again
11:40 because there is a very important prepositions
11:42 that is used in this verse.
11:45 Once again it says, "In the beginning was the Word,
11:48 and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
11:53 Verse 2, "He was in the beginning with God."
11:57 Now, in Greek there are two main prepositions
12:01 that are translated with.
12:04 One is a preposition that is used to express
12:08 like I'm here in this same room with you,
12:11 that is not the preposition that is used here in John 1:1, 2.
12:16 The preposition that is used here is the word pros
12:21 which basically means with but moving towards.
12:26 In other words the preposition is really saying
12:29 that the God the Father and the Son were together
12:32 but they were in movement towards one another.
12:36 In other words, they had an intimate
12:37 and close relationship one with the other
12:41 even though they were two.
12:43 Now, in the book, The Faith I Live By, page 46,
12:47 Ellen White expresses the close fellowship
12:50 that existed between the Father and the Son.
12:53 Ellen White didn't know Greek but she is catching here
12:56 the nuance of what is being said in John 1:1, 2.
13:01 This is what she says,
13:02 "In speaking of His pre-existence,
13:05 Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages.
13:10 He assures us that there never was a time
13:15 when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God.
13:20 Notice what she says, there was never time
13:22 in which Jesus was not in closed fellowship with the eternal God.
13:28 In other words, throughout eternity
13:30 there has been this close intimate relationship
13:33 between the Father and the Son,
13:35 they have gravitated towards one another
13:38 as indicated by this preposition pros.
13:41 Now, in John 10:30, Jesus made a very interesting declaration
13:47 about His relationship with His Father.
13:49 This is a very short verse.
13:52 Here Jesus speaking to the Jews of His day said,
13:56 "I and My Father are one."
14:01 Now, do you know that, that is marriage terminology really.
14:05 You know, that in the Bible it says
14:07 that a man shall leave his father and his mother
14:09 and they are no longer two but they are what?
14:12 But they are one.
14:13 So in other words, marriage language is used
14:16 to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son,
14:19 I and My Father are one.
14:22 Ellen White, once again emphasizes
14:25 the importance of realizing this closed intimate fellowship
14:29 between the Father and the Son.
14:31 In the book Sons and Daughters of God, page 286,
14:35 Ellen White explains, "In mind, in purpose,
14:40 in character, they are one, but not in person.
14:46 In other words they are two person but they are one
14:49 in the senses that they are the same in mind,
14:52 in purpose and in character.
14:55 In the devotional book, The Upward Look, page 153,
14:59 Ellen White once again underlines
15:01 that there are two distinct individuals in fellowship.
15:04 This is what she says, "Christ is one with the Father,
15:08 but God and Christ are two distinct Personages."
15:14 And so you have this gravitation of the Father towards the Son.
15:18 The Bible describes their relationship
15:20 as two individuals being one.
15:24 In fact Jesus basically said that
15:27 He is the Father's other self.
15:30 Notice John 14: 8, 9
15:33 where Jesus is explaining
15:35 the relationship with His Father.
15:37 John 14:8, 9, ''Philip said to him,
15:41 "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
15:47 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long,
15:51 and yet you have not known me, Philip?
15:54 He who has seen Me has seen the Father,
15:58 so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
16:01 Could we say that Jesus Christ
16:03 is the Father second self? Absolutely.
16:06 In fact Ellen White has a mind boggling statement
16:09 that we find in the book that I May Know Him, page 38.
16:13 Listen to this statement.
16:14 She says what speech is to thought,
16:19 so is Christ to the invisible Father.
16:23 He is the manifestation of the Father,
16:26 and is called the Word of God."
16:28 What Ellen White is saying is that the Father thinks
16:31 and Jesus speaks what the Father is thinking.
16:35 That's how intimate and close the relationship is.
16:39 Jesus is the Father's other self
16:42 He is the expression of the Father's thought,
16:45 therefore Jesus says.
16:46 "He who has seen Me has seen My Father."
16:50 He is the Father's second self.
16:52 But you know that the Bible also says that
16:55 Jesus is the radiance of the Father's glory.
16:59 Notice what we find in Hebrews 1:3 Hebrews 1:3
17:05 and I'm reading from the New International Version.
17:07 It's a translation that comes through clearer.
17:11 It says here, "The Son is the radiance of God's glory
17:17 and the exact representation of his being,
17:21 sustaining all things by his powerful word."
17:24 In other words Jesus Christ is the radiance
17:28 or the shining of the Father's glory.
17:31 That's why Jesus always lives to bring glory to His Father.
17:35 When people see His glory,
17:37 they are seeing the glory of the Father.
17:40 Now, the Bible also tells us that the Father loves His Son.
17:45 Notice John 5:20.
17:47 I want you to remember all of these details
17:49 because we are going to come back to them
17:51 before we end out study today.
17:53 John 5:20, "For the Father loves the Son
18:00 and shows him all things that He Himself does,
18:04 and he will show Him greater works than these,
18:08 that you may marvel."
18:09 Now there are many other verses and scriptures
18:12 that clearly say that the Father loves His Son.
18:16 There is this intense relationship of love
18:19 between the Father and the Son.
18:21 Now, do you know that Jesus also said that
18:24 He knew His Father and His Father knew Him?
18:28 Now, you say, well, of course they knew each other
18:31 but we need to understand that in the Bible
18:33 the word no does not necessarily mean
18:36 that you know somebody in your brain like I know all of you.
18:40 The word know expresses
18:43 an intimate sexual relationship
18:46 between a man and a woman.
18:47 Now, the Father and the Son
18:48 don't have a sexual relationship,
18:50 the idea is the intimacy that they have
18:53 which is used by the word no.
18:56 where Jesus describes
19:00 this experience of His relationship
19:04 with His Father as a knowing relationship.
19:08 It says there in John 10:15,
19:10 "As the Father knows me, even so I know the Father,
19:16 and I lay down My life for the sheep."
19:19 So the word know is used to describe
19:22 this intimate relationship
19:24 between the Father and the Son.
19:27 Now the Bible also tells us
19:29 that the Father and the Son share all things equally
19:32 just like a husband and a wife should share in a marriage.
19:36 You see between the Father and the Son
19:37 there is no prenuptial agreement so to speak.
19:40 In other words all that belongs to the Father
19:43 belongs to Jesus just like in a marriage relationship.
19:47 Notice John 16:15, where Jesus expresses this.
19:52 He says, "All things that the Father has are Mine.
19:57 Therefore I said that He will take of mine
19:59 and declare it to you."
20:02 Now in eternity past, the Lord Jesus
20:05 and the Father decided that they wanted to have children.
20:09 Now we need to understand
20:10 that they decided to have children
20:11 not by procreation but by creation
20:14 and so the Bible tells us
20:16 that the Father created through the Son.
20:19 Just like the husband and wife have children by procreation,
20:23 the Father and the Son decide to have children by creation.
20:27 You see where does the Bible say that?
20:29 Well the Bible tells us in Genesis 1
20:33 that God made man in His image,
20:36 He created them male and female.
20:40 And so would you agree with me that the Father
20:43 and the Son are equal, yes or no? Absolutely.
20:46 Do they have this intimate close relationship
20:50 that is illustrated by the marriage relationship?
20:53 Absolutely.
20:54 But now I ask the question?
20:57 Was the Son subject to His Father
21:00 even before sin came into the universe
21:04 even though He was equal to His Father?
21:07 Let's notice several verses that explain
21:09 that the Son was subject to the Father
21:13 even though the Son was equal to the Father
21:15 before sin came into the universe.
21:18 Revelation 4:11 is the first verse
21:21 that I want to read, Revelation 4:11.
21:25 This is a hymn that is being sung
21:27 by the four living creatures and the 24 elders
21:30 and they are giving praise and honoring glory
21:33 to God the Father who is sitting on the throne.
21:36 And I want you to notice what it says there
21:38 in Revelation 4:11.
21:40 "You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory
21:45 and honor and power, for You created all things."
21:51 Now you say how could that be the Father,
21:52 didn't you say that Jesus was the creator?
21:54 Well, let's finish reading the verse.
21:56 It says, "For you created all things notice
21:59 and by your will they exist and were created."
22:04 In other words things were created by the Father's will,
22:08 but who was the one who actually performed the work
22:11 of implementing the Father's will?
22:14 It was Jesus Christ.
22:16 I want you to notice also 1 Corinthians 8:6.
22:20 This is speaking about before sin.
22:22 God the Father creates through His Son,
22:25 Jesus is the instrument through whom the Father creates.
22:29 1 Corinthians 8:6, here the Apostle Paul says,
22:33 "Yet for us there is one God,
22:35 the Father of whom are all things."
22:40 See, all things are of the Father,
22:42 but then he continues saying,
22:44 "And we for him, and one Lord Jesus Christ,
22:49 through whom are all things,
22:52 and through whom we live."
22:55 Did you understand what that verse is saying?
22:57 All things are from the Father through the Son?
23:01 In other words the Son implements
23:03 the will of the Father.
23:06 Notice Colossians 1:16 has the same idea again,
23:10 Colossians 1:16 it says speaking about Jesus,
23:14 "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven
23:19 and that are on earth, visible and invisible,
23:22 whether thrones or dominions
23:24 or principalities or powers.
23:26 All things were created through Him and for Him."
23:32 So creation is by the Father through the Son,
23:36 the son implements
23:38 the Father's will in others words.
23:41 Notice Hebrews 1:1, 2
23:44 once again speaking about creation,
23:46 before sin came into the universe.
23:50 It says there in Hebrews 1:1, 2,
23:53 "God, that's God the Father,
23:55 who at various times and in various ways
23:57 spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
24:01 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son."
24:05 See in these last days
24:06 the Father has spoken to us through the Son,
24:08 and now notice,
24:10 "Whom He has appointed heir of all things."
24:13 Who has appointed the Son to be the heir?
24:16 The Father has appointed Jesus to the heir of all things
24:20 and now notice, "Through whom also He made the worlds."
24:25 So through whom did God the Father made the world?
24:28 He made them through Jesus Christ?
24:33 I would like to ask you this question,
24:34 was Jesus already Michael,
24:36 the archangel before sin came into the universe?
24:40 Was Jesus the commander of the angelic host
24:43 before sin came into the universe.
24:45 He most certainly was.
24:48 And I want you to notice Revelation 12:7-9,
24:52 Revelation 12:7-9 makes this clear.
24:55 It says, "And war broke out in heaven,
24:58 Michael and his angels fought with the dragon,
25:01 and the dragon and his angels fought
25:04 but they did not prevail,
25:06 nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
25:09 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old,
25:12 called the Devil and Satan,
25:14 who deceives the whole world,
25:15 he was cast to the earth,
25:16 and his angels were cast out with him."
25:19 So Jesus was already the commander
25:21 of the heavenly host
25:23 before sin came into the universe.
25:26 In fact, we know that it was
25:28 because Lucifer did not want to keep his position,
25:33 he wanted a higher position that led to his sin.
25:37 He was not satisfied with the position
25:39 that God had given him.
25:40 He wanted to ascend to a higher position.
25:44 Now, Ellen White has some very interesting comments
25:48 about what took place when Lucifer felt these jealous,
25:52 envious feeling of Jesus Christ.
25:55 And when we read these statements,
25:57 we notice that Ellen White clearly indicates
25:59 that even before sin,
26:01 Jesus was subject to the Father
26:03 and received orders from His Father.
26:06 I want to read first of all from the book,
26:08 Lift Him Up, page 18.
26:11 Ellen White says this, "The Father then made known,
26:16 he is speaking to the angels when he gathered them together,
26:19 that it was ordained by Himself that Christ,
26:24 His Son, should be equal with Himself,
26:28 so that wherever was the presence of His Son,
26:31 it was His own presence.
26:33 The word of the Son was to be obeyed
26:36 as readily as the word of the Father."
26:39 Listen carefully to this now.
26:41 "His Son He had invested with authority
26:45 to command the heavenly host."
26:47 Who invested Jesus with the authority
26:49 to command the angels? The father did.
26:52 She continued saying,
26:53 "Especially was His Son to work in union with Himself
26:58 in the anticipated creation of the earth
27:00 and every living thing that should exist upon the earth.
27:04 His Son listen carefully,
27:06 His son would carry out His will and His purposes
27:11 but would do nothing of Himself alone.
27:14 The Father's will would be fulfilled in Him."
27:17 Was Jesus subject to His Father in eternity?
27:21 He most certainly was.
27:23 Now here is another statement.
27:24 This is a little bit longer
27:26 where Ellen White is talking about
27:28 when Lucifer felt this envious,
27:31 envious feelings within himself
27:33 and he was filled with jealousy,
27:35 God called all the angelic host together
27:37 to explain the position of Jesus.
27:39 Listen to what she says.
27:42 This is Patriarchs and Prophets, page 36.
27:45 "The King of the universe
27:47 summoned the heavenly hosts before Him,
27:50 that in their presence
27:52 He might set forth the true position of His Son
27:56 and show the relation
27:57 He sustained to all created beings.
28:00 The Son of God shared the Father's throne,
28:03 and the glory of the eternal,
28:05 self-existent One encircled both."
28:08 See they shared the throne, they were equal.
28:11 She continued saying,
28:14 "About the throne gathered the holy angels,
28:16 a vast, unnumbered throng
28:18 "ten thousand times ten thousand,
28:21 and thousands of thousands" the most exalted angels,
28:25 as ministers and subjects,
28:27 rejoicing in the light that fell upon them
28:30 from the presence of the Deity.
28:32 Before the assembled inhabitants of heaven
28:35 the King that's the Father declared that none
28:40 but Christ, the Only Begotten of God,
28:43 could fully enter into His purposes,
28:47 and to Him that is to Jesus
28:49 it was committed to execute
28:51 the mighty counsels of His will."
28:55 Whose councils did Jesus execute?
28:58 The councils of His Father.
29:01 She continues saying,
29:02 "The Son of God had wrought the Father's will
29:06 in the creation of all the hosts of heaven
29:08 and to Him, as well as to God,
29:11 their homage and allegiance were due.
29:14 Christ was still to exercise divine power,
29:17 in the creation of the earth and its inhabitants."
29:20 Now here comes the key point of the quotation,
29:23 "but in all this He would not seek power
29:27 or exaltation for Himself contrary to God's plan,
29:31 but would exalt the Father's glory
29:34 and execute His purposes of beneficence and love."
29:41 One more statement,
29:42 The Signs of the Times, October 24, 1906.
29:47 Ellen White says, "It is a mystery
29:49 that One equal listen carefully,
29:52 equal with the eternal Father should so abase Himself
29:57 as to suffer the cruel death of the cross to ransom man
30:02 and it is a mystery that God so loved the world
30:05 as to permit His Son to make this great sacrifice."
30:11 Interesting, did the Father have to permit
30:15 His Son to make the sacrifice?
30:17 Yes, was the son subject to do the Father's will
30:20 even in eternity? Absolutely.
30:24 So, is it possible for individuals to be equal
30:27 and yet have different functions
30:29 and have one be subordinate
30:31 or in subjection to the other? Absolutely.
30:34 In a perfect environment that is true.
30:38 Now, did Jesus also subject Himself
30:41 to His Father during His incarnation?
30:45 Was Jesus still equal to His Father
30:47 while He was still, while He was on this earth?
30:50 Absolutely.
30:52 Did Jesus carry on a very important ministry
30:55 while He was on this earth
30:57 as sacred and as important
31:00 as the ministry that the Father was executing
31:03 sitting on His throne in heaven?
31:04 Yes or no. Absolutely.
31:07 They were equal
31:08 and yet they had different functions
31:11 or different roles.
31:12 The father on His throne ruling the universe
31:15 and keeping things together
31:16 and Jesus Christ coming to live on this earth
31:20 and to die on the cross.
31:21 They both were involved in the ministry,
31:24 they both have the same abilities
31:26 and yet they had different roles in ministry.
31:30 Ellen White in the book Spirit of Prophecy,
31:32 volume 2, page 164 said this.
31:36 "Jesus claimed equal rights with God
31:41 in doing a work equally sacred
31:44 and of the same character
31:46 with that which engaged his Father in Heaven.
31:50 So while Jesus was on earth,
31:51 why did He claim equal rights with His Father?
31:55 Yes, He did.
31:56 Was He doing the work equally sacred?
31:59 Yes, He was.
32:00 Was He doing the identical work that the Father was doing? No.
32:05 They were fulfilling different functions or roles,
32:09 and yet they were equal,
32:12 Jesus in fact while He was on earth
32:15 always exalted His Father.
32:17 In fact Jesus in John 14:28
32:21 had something very interesting to say.
32:24 "You have heard me say to you,
32:26 'I am going away and coming back to you.'
32:29 If you loved me, you would be rejoice
32:30 because I said, 'I am going to my Father,
32:33 for My Father is greater than I." You see.
32:37 Uh, see the Father was greater than Jesus was.
32:40 Jesus was equal with His Father
32:43 but Jesus always placed others ahead,
32:47 others in first place.
32:49 Notice John 5:30, John 5:30,
32:54 Jesus lived to exalt his father
32:56 while He was incarnate
32:57 even though He was equal with His Father.
33:00 Jesus says there, "I can of Myself do nothing.
33:04 As I hear, I judge and my judgment is righteous
33:08 because I do not seek My own will,
33:10 but the will of the Father who sent Me."
33:13 Was Jesus still subject to His Father
33:15 during the entering of sin on earth
33:18 when He became incarnate.
33:20 Was He still equal with His Father?
33:22 Absolutely, but subordinate to His Father's will.
33:26 John 6:38, I could read many more statements,
33:29 I'll read one more from scripture
33:31 on this idea of Jesus fulfilling the will of His Father
33:34 during His incarnation.
33:36 John 6:38, Jesus is speaking
33:38 and He says, "For I have come down from heaven,
33:41 not to do My own will,
33:43 but the will of Him who sent Me".
33:47 In Desire of Ages, page 22 and 23,
33:51 Ellen White explains in this magnificent book
33:55 the greatest biography
33:56 I believe ever written of Christ outside the Bible.
34:00 Ellen White says, "He might have retained
34:02 the glory of heaven, and the homage of the angels.
34:06 But He chose to give back the scepter
34:09 into the Father's hands,
34:12 and to step down from the throne of the universe,
34:15 that He might bring light to the benighted,
34:18 and life to the perishing.
34:21 You see folks, Jesus did not grasp
34:24 equality with God as something to be hung on to.
34:28 Jesus did not demand His rights and His position,
34:33 Jesus came down.
34:35 Jesus came to minister, He did not claim rights.
34:38 The Bible says that He humbled Himself to minister.
34:42 This is described in Philippians 2:5-8
34:47 where the Apostle Paul says, "Let this mind be in you,
34:49 which was also in Christ Jesus,
34:52 who, being in the form of God,
34:54 we already discussed this, did not consider
34:57 equality with God as something to be grasped."
35:00 In other words, He didn't say,
35:02 I'm going to hang on to My equality to God
35:04 because I'm equal with Him.
35:05 No, He did not decide to hang on to His equality with God,
35:09 it says, "But made Himself of no reputation,
35:14 taking the form of a bondservant
35:16 and coming in the likeness of men.
35:19 And being found in appearance as a man,
35:22 He humbled himself and became obedient
35:25 to the point of death even the death of the cross."
35:28 You see, in the mind of Jesus things were not having
35:31 to do with rights and with position and with ascending
35:35 and being number one, no.
35:37 His idea was to descend to the lowest depths
35:41 in order to minister and to serve others.
35:45 You see the problem is we have our heads screwed on wrong.
35:49 We thinks that submission or subjection is a bad thing,
35:53 that the one who is subject is inferior
35:57 to the one he is subject to.
36:00 But Jesus thought that subjection is greatness,
36:04 implementing God's plan is true greatness.
36:08 In Signs of the Times, January 8, 1880,
36:11 Ellen White explains how Jesus became subject
36:15 to His Father's while He was on earth.
36:17 This is what she says, "Christ taught
36:20 that all true goodness and greatness of character,
36:25 all peace and joy in the soul, must come through perfect
36:30 and entire submission to his Father's will,
36:34 which is the highest law of duty."
36:36 Did you hear that statement.
36:38 All true goodness and greatness of character,
36:42 all peace and Joy in the soul must come through perfect
36:45 and entire submission to his Father's will,
36:48 Jesus taught that in His life.
36:50 She continues saying, "The lessons connected
36:52 with their commission, which they were to put
36:55 to a practical use, were given
36:57 to the disciples upon this occasion.
36:59 They were to carry the light of truth to the world.
37:03 In the book, The faith I live By, page 50,
37:06 she says speaking about the death of Christ.
37:08 "He who died for the sins of the world
37:11 was to remain in the tomb the allotted time.
37:15 He was in that stony prison house
37:17 as a prisoner of divine justice."
37:20 Listen carefully now, "He was responsible
37:23 to the Judge of the universe.
37:25 He was bearing the sins of the world,
37:28 and His Father only could release Him."
37:33 And you know when that angel came down from heaven and said,
37:36 oh thou Son of God, thy Father calls thee.
37:39 Jesus came out of the tomb with a life that was within Himself
37:44 but He came out when His Father gave him permission to come out,
37:48 according to the statement.
37:50 She says once again.
37:52 He was bearing the sins of the world,
37:54 and His Father only could release Him.
37:57 So was Jesus subject to His Father's will
38:00 during His ministry. Yes.
38:02 Was He subject to his Father's will in eternity past,
38:06 before sin came into the universe?
38:08 Absolutely. But how about after the ascension of Christ,
38:12 before sin is eradicated from the universe.
38:15 In other words between His ascension
38:17 and when sin comes to an end.
38:20 Is Jesus equal with the Father today?
38:23 Yes, He is. Does Jesus have the same abilities
38:26 and capacities that His Father has? Absolutely.
38:30 Are both the Father and the Son
38:32 involved in ministry? Yes, They are.
38:35 And so the issue is not equality or ability or ministry,
38:41 the issue has to do with roles or functions.
38:46 Are you with me or not?
38:47 Is it possible to have different roles or functions
38:50 and at the same time be equal? Absolutely.
38:53 Jesus is the best example of this.
38:55 You see folks, to be a subject is divine,
39:00 to want to ascend to a higher position then God
39:04 has established is demonic
39:06 because that is the spirit of Lucifer.
39:09 Is it just possible that this whole issue
39:12 of women's ordination has to do more with a desire
39:15 for position and for power?
39:18 Is it possible there is a reflection
39:20 of the experience of the Korah, whom God had called
39:25 to be a Levite but not a priest.
39:27 He said I could be a priest just as good as the Levites could be.
39:31 I have abilities like they have,
39:34 and I could perform the ministry the way that they do.
39:37 Let me ask you.
39:39 Could Korah had been a good priest do you think?
39:42 Could he had learned to be a good priest?
39:43 I think so. Do you think he would had the ability?
39:47 Absolutely. But where was the problem?
39:50 The problem is God had not called him
39:52 to that specific function.
39:55 Was he equal to Erin or was he inferior to Erin?
39:59 No, he was equal, but he had a different work,
40:02 he had a different function.
40:07 Now, let's read John 17:4.
40:09 This is speaking about after the ascension of Christ.
40:13 Actually Jesus is praying in the Garden of Gethsemane
40:16 and notice what he says in His prayer to His Father.
40:19 "And now, O Father, glorify Me."
40:24 Who is He asking to glorify Him?
40:26 His father, "O now, and now O father,
40:30 glorify Me together with yourself,
40:33 with the glory which I had with you before the world was."
40:37 He is asking the Father to glorify Him
40:39 and that happens upon His ascension.
40:43 I want you to notice also Acts 2:33.
40:47 You know, when Jesus poured out the Holy Spirit
40:49 upon the apostles on the day of Pentecost,
40:51 actually the Father gave Him the gift
40:54 and then He gave it to the disciples.
40:57 Notice what it says in Acts 2:33 speaking about Christ it says, "
41:01 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God,
41:04 and having received from the Father
41:06 the promise of the Holy Spirit."
41:08 Who did He receive the Holy Spirit from?
41:11 From the Father, having received from the Father,
41:14 the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out
41:16 this which you now see and hear."
41:19 The Father gave Him the promise of the spirit.
41:22 The Father glorified Him when He ascended to heaven.
41:26 I want you to notice 2 Corinthians 11:3.
41:30 This is a very important verse, that tells us that the Father
41:35 is the head of Christ.
41:37 Now notice what we find here,
41:39 "But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ,
41:45 the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."
41:52 So who is the head of Christ? God.
41:55 Does Jesus have a problem with that? No.
41:59 So let me ask you this.
42:01 Would it be a problem for man to realize
42:03 that Christ is his head? No.
42:06 Would it be a problem for woman to recognize
42:09 that man is her head? No.
42:11 If it's not a problem for man to recognize Christ
42:14 as his head and that Christ recognizes God as His head,
42:19 there shouldn't be any problem with woman recognizing
42:22 that the man is her head? Correct.
42:25 Now, I want you to notice, Mathew 28:18.
42:29 Once again here Jesus is speaking to His disciples
42:32 about the great commission
42:34 and there is a very important expression
42:36 that we many times don't focus on.
42:38 It says there, "And Jesus came and spoke to them,"
42:41 that is to His disciples saying, listen now carefully,
42:45 "All authority what does it say next,
42:50 has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."
42:55 Did Jesus now, He gained the victory,
42:57 He come to His Father, says, now I take my authority.
43:00 No. Even after His resurrection, authority is given to Him
43:06 in heaven and in earth.
43:07 Who gives it to Him? His Father.
43:10 Notice Philippians 2:9-11.
43:13 We read the previous verses where it says that Jesus
43:16 humbled Himself to the point of dying on the cross.
43:20 Now notice what happens after Jesus dies
43:22 and he ascends to heaven.
43:23 Philippians 2:9-11, it says,
43:26 "Therefore God also has highly exalted Him."
43:31 Who exalted Jesus after He came to this earth? God.
43:34 "Therefore God has highly exalted him and given Him
43:38 the name that is above every name."
43:41 Who gave Jesus the name?
43:42 The Father, "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
43:47 of those in heaven and of those on earth
43:50 and of those under the earth, and that every tongue
43:53 should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
43:56 to the glory of God the Father."
43:59 Even after Jesus ascends to heaven,
44:02 His father gives Him authority, His Father glorifies to Him,
44:07 His Father gives Him the name
44:10 and its all for the glory of God, the Father.
44:14 They are still equal that the Father,
44:17 a Son is subject to the will of the Father.
44:23 Now what did Jesus exemplify in His teaching?
44:27 Jesus as I mentioned before did not demand His rights.
44:32 He did not say just as equity and mercy requires
44:38 that I be installed in an equal position with my Father.
44:43 No, because the focus of Jesus was not on position.
44:46 The focus of Jesus was on ministry.
44:49 You see, Jesus taught the last shall be first,
44:53 and the first shall be last.
44:55 He taught he who exalts himself will be humbled
44:58 and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
45:01 The Bible tells us that Jesus emptied Himself
45:05 dying the death of the cross.
45:08 Is it just possible that they struggled for rights and mercy
45:12 and just as an equity in the women's ordination issue
45:16 is really a reflection of Lucifer's desire
45:20 to occupy a position for which God had not called him.
45:25 Now I would like to ask this question.
45:28 Is Jesus going to be subject to His Father
45:32 even after sin is eradicated from the universe?
45:36 Go with me to 1 Corinthians 15:24, 28.
45:42 1 Corinthians 15:24, 28. There is no doubt
45:47 that throughout eternity Jesus will be equal with His Father
45:51 but He will be subject to His Father.
45:54 So is subjection a bad thing?
45:56 Does it have anything to do with sin?
45:58 No, I'm not talking about the husband trampling
46:01 on the wife, I'm talking about legitimate authority,
46:04 legitimate relationship where the husband loves the wife
46:08 and the wife in response is subject to her husband.
46:11 Notice 1 Corinthians 15:24.
46:14 "Then comes the end, when he delivers
46:19 the kingdom to God the Father."
46:20 What is Jesus is going to do at the end?
46:22 "He is going to deliver the kingdom to God,
46:25 the Father, when he puts an end to all the rule
46:28 and all authority and power.
46:29 For he must reign till he has put
46:32 all his enemies under His feet.
46:34 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
46:37 For "He has put all things under his feet."'
46:40 Now God has put everything under the feet of Jesus,
46:43 but now listen carefully to what it continues saying.
46:45 "But when he says "all things are put under Him,
46:49 it is evident that He who put all things
46:52 under Him is excepted."
46:56 Are you understanding what Paul is saying?
46:58 All things are under the feet of Jesus
47:00 with the exception of whom? The Father.
47:06 Then in verse 28 it says, "Now when all things
47:09 are made subject to Him, that is to Jesus,
47:12 then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him
47:18 who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
47:23 Is the Son going to subject Himself
47:25 to His Father in eternity?
47:27 Absolutely, the Bible teaches that.
47:32 So in conclusion the Father and the Son are equal
47:37 but the Son is subordinate to His Father's authority.
47:42 Jesus does not demand equal rights but rather is willing
47:47 to fulfill the rule His father has established for Him.
47:51 It is easy for Jesus to be subject to His Fathers will
47:55 because He knows that His Father loves Him.
47:58 The relationship between the Father,
48:00 the Son and the Holy Spirit
48:02 is the model for human relationships.
48:06 Does Jesus complain because He had to die?
48:10 Does the Holy Spirit complain because he has to carry forward
48:14 the work of Jesus and receive orders from Jesus?
48:17 Of course not because their focus is not on position,
48:21 their focus is on ministry, they do not focus
48:24 on authority, position or power.
48:28 In other words the relationship between the Father and the Son
48:31 is the divine model of the relationship
48:34 that should exist between husbands and wives.
48:36 Let's pursue that in the few minutes
48:38 that we have left.
48:40 Where Adam and Eve created equal?
48:43 Yes, they were. The Bible uses the word man
48:47 to describe both of them, the word the generic word man.
48:50 Both were created in the image of God.
48:52 Both were given dominion over creation.
48:55 Both received the blessing of God.
48:58 Both of them were commanded to be fruitful and multiply.
49:01 Did Adam and Eve have an intimate and close relationship?
49:06 Was there a oneness between them? Yes.
49:09 Now we remember when we studied about the Father and the Son.
49:12 The Bible tells us that when Jesus created
49:15 Adam and Eve and married them, they were no longer
49:18 two but they were what?
49:20 But they were one like Jesus and the Fathers are one.
49:23 Was Eve Adam's second self, Notice Adventist Home, page 25,
49:29 Ellen White says, "A part of man,
49:32 bone of his bone, and flesh of his flesh,
49:35 she was his second self."
49:38 What was Eve? His second self, showing the close union
49:44 and the affectionate attachment
49:47 that should exist in this relation."
49:50 Do you remember that Jesus is the glory of the Father.
49:53 Do you the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:7,
49:57 he says the woman is the glory of man.
50:02 Now women might not like that but that's what the Bible says
50:05 that the woman is the glory of man.
50:07 Does the Bible command the husband to love the wife
50:11 like the Father loved Jesus?
50:13 Absolutely. Husbands love your wives as Christ
50:17 loved the church, but then the Apostle Paul
50:19 says in-that's Ephesians 5:25.
50:22 In verse 22 he says, "Wives be subject
50:25 on to your own husbands."
50:26 See you have that relationship.
50:28 Are the husband and the wife supposed
50:31 to share everything equally? Absolutely.
50:35 Are husband and wife to know each other intimately?
50:38 Absolutely. Genesis 4:1 and also 25 speak
50:45 of that intimate relationship between Adam and Eve
50:48 as being as knowing each other.
50:51 Ellen White says in Patriarchs and Prophets, page 46
50:54 "God Himself gave Adam a companion.
50:58 He provided "an help meet for him"
51:00 a helper corresponding to him one who was fitted
51:04 to be his companion, and who could be one
51:07 with him in love and sympathy.
51:09 Eve was created from a rib taken from the side of Adam,
51:13 signifying that she was not to control him as the head,
51:16 nor to be trampled under his feet as an inferior,
51:20 but to stand by his side as an equal,
51:23 to stand by his side as a what?
51:25 As an equal, to be loved and protected by him.
51:33 So that means that man and woman have
51:35 the very same roles and functions
51:38 as husband and wife?
51:40 True of false. False.
51:43 Can the man be the mother?
51:46 Can the woman be the father? Absolutely not.
51:50 You see God has made man and woman physiologically
51:55 and psychologically adopted to fulfill different roles
51:59 within the marriage relationship.
52:01 You see the man does not seize to be a father and the woman,
52:05 the mother as a result of the death of Jesus on the cross.
52:08 It's true that the Apostle Paul says in Galatians 3:28
52:12 that there is no longer male nor female
52:14 but all you have to do is look to know that's not talking about
52:17 the biological and psychological differences of men and women.
52:20 It's talking about equal status before God.
52:23 It's talking about, about equal in value before God.
52:26 It's speaking about the fact that men and women
52:29 have equal access to salvation but it's not saying
52:32 that they fulfill identical roles.
52:36 One scholar stated.
52:38 Man and woman, this is an Adventist scholar.
52:40 Man and woman are completely equal without any submission
52:46 or subordination of one to the other,
52:48 even though they were created with sexual differentiation.
52:53 Now, that's not biblical,
52:55 and it does not fit the divine model.
52:59 I want to read from Ephesians 5:22-24
53:04 where the Apostle Paul, this is after the cross,
53:07 many years after the cross.
53:09 Is it still God's plan that wives submit
53:11 to their husbands and husbands love their wives?
53:13 Absolutely. Here the Apostle Paul says,
53:15 "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
53:19 For the husband is the head of the wife
53:22 as also Christ is the head of the church,
53:25 and he is the Savior of the body.
53:27 Therefore, just as church is subject to Christ,
53:30 so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
53:34 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved
53:38 the church and gave Himself for her."
53:41 Ellen White concurs in the book
53:44 Counsels to the Church, pages 145 and 146.
53:47 She says, "The Lord has constituted
53:50 the husband the head of the wife to be her protector,
53:53 he is the house-band of the family,
53:56 binding the members together, even as Christ
54:00 is the head of the church
54:01 and the Savior of the mystical body."
54:04 And somebody might say okay, pastor you presented
54:06 enough evidence that truly in the marriage relationship,
54:10 they are equal but the wife should be subject to the husband
54:14 and the husband should love his wife.
54:16 But how do you know that translates into the church
54:20 where the man should be the head of the church
54:22 and woman should be subject to the authority of the man.
54:27 Allow me to read you just a couple of statements
54:29 from the Sprit of Prophecy as we close.
54:32 This statement is volume 5 of the Testimonies, page 618.
54:37 Ellen White says, notice the connection
54:38 between the headship of the man in the home
54:42 and the idea that the head in the church should also be male.
54:46 The family of the once that jested
54:49 for office should be considered,
54:52 so when somebody is elected for office,
54:55 should their family be considered?
54:56 Absolutely. "The family of the one suggested
54:59 for office should be considered.
55:00 Are they in subjection?"
55:02 Now notice. "Can the man rule his house,
55:08 his own house with honor?
55:10 What character have his children?
55:13 Will they do honor to the father's influence?
55:16 If he has no tact, wisdom, or power of godliness
55:20 at home in managing his own family,
55:23 it is safe to conclude that the same defects
55:27 will be carried into the church, and the same unsanctified
55:31 management will be seen there.
55:33 It will be far better to criticize the man before
55:37 he is put into office than afterward,
55:39 better to pray and counsel before taking the decisive step
55:43 than to labor to correct
55:44 the consequences of a wrong move."
55:47 Did you notice a number of times that the male,
55:50 a pronoun is used in this passage
55:52 and the word father is used?
55:55 The man has to be a good ruler in his house,
55:57 so that he can be a good ruler and elder in the church.
56:00 Final statement, "He who is engaged in the work
56:02 of the gospel ministry must be faithful in his family life.
56:06 It is as essential that as a father he should improve
56:11 the talents God has given him
56:13 for the purpose of making the home
56:15 a symbol of the heavenly family,
56:17 as that in the work of the ministry,
56:20 he should make use of his God
56:22 given powers to win souls for the church.
56:25 As the priest in the home, and as the ambassador of Christ
56:29 in the church, he should exemplify
56:32 in his life the character of Christ.
56:35 He must be faithful in watching for souls
56:37 as one that must give an account.
56:39 In his service there must be seen
56:42 no carelessness and inattentive work.
56:44 God will not serve with the sins of men who have not a clear
56:49 sense of the sacred responsibility involved
56:52 in accepting a position as pastor of a church.
56:55 He who fails to be a faithful, discerning shepherd in the home,
56:59 will surely fail of being a faithful shepherd
57:03 of the flock of God in the church.
57:07 Is that clear.
57:08 The same requisites for the home
57:10 apply as well to the church.


Revised 2013-10-06