Urban Report

Coming Out Ministries

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Yvonne Lewis (Host), Walt Heyer, Michael Carducci

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Series Code: UBR

Program Code: UBR000178A


00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:05 may be too candid for younger children.
00:10 Stay tuned to meet two men who are delivered from
00:14 gender identity confusion.
00:16 My name is Yvonne Lewis
00:18 and you're watching Urban Report.
00:43 Hello and welcome to Urban Report.
00:45 My guests today are Mike Carducci from
00:47 'Coming Out' Ministries
00:49 and Walt Heyer, Lecturer and Author.
00:51 I had a chance to talk with them
00:53 when they came here to be on our Dare to Dream Program
00:56 Pure Choices,
00:57 you won't believe the powerful way
01:00 God has worked in their lives. Take a look.
01:05 What a joy it is for me to be on the Set of Pure Choices
01:10 interviewing and talking to two amazing men of God.
01:17 Mike Carducci of 'Coming Out' Ministries
01:21 and Walt Heyer... Walt Heyer is a Lecturer
01:25 and Author and both of you have amazing experiences
01:29 and I asked Mike... who was here
01:33 with the rest of 'Coming Out' Ministries
01:35 to do this series...
01:36 they came to do this whole series on Pure Choices,
01:41 and when I heard Walt's testimony,
01:44 I knew that you had to hear this.
01:46 So, I got Mike to come join me
01:49 and Mike, I want you to just... kind of just... you know,
01:52 ask any questions that you might have
01:54 from Walt as we have Walt here,
01:55 and I knew that we only had Walt for
01:57 a little bit of time so we grabbed you up
02:00 and you to do this and so thank you so much
02:02 both of you for being with us.
02:04 Walt: Yeah, my pleasure.
02:05 So, let's get in... Walt, your story to me
02:09 it's just so profound because what I see in Media
02:14 is this thrust... this push to accept the whole transgender
02:22 movement, not only to accept it
02:24 but to promote it and so I'd like for our Viewers
02:29 to hear about your journey and then
02:31 we're just going to kind of ask you questions as we go along.
02:33 Walt: Sure.
02:34 Tell us about your journey, how did this whole thing start?
02:38 Yeah, that's great,
02:39 I'm so happy to be able to do this because
02:42 people do need to get a better understanding
02:44 of how this all gets started, in my case,
02:46 I was four-years old and whether it was my idea
02:50 or my grandmother's, I don't know
02:52 but she started crossdressing me
02:54 and she really enjoyed crossdressing me
02:58 but we did it in secret,
02:59 it was "grandma's secret" with me
03:01 and over a period of time, she began to increase this
03:07 to the point... she was a Seamstress
03:08 so she made this purple, chiffon evening dress,
03:12 this long, flowing evening dress
03:14 that she just took a lot of pride in
03:15 now keep in mind, I'm four-years old
03:18 and so, here she is... dressing me up
03:20 and she's fawning over me, she's making a big fuss over me
03:24 about being a girl and obviously, to me,
03:27 she liked me much better as a girl than she did as a boy
03:31 which... I always say plants a seed in my mind that
03:35 "Gee, there must be something wrong with me
03:37 if she's liking me better as a girl than as a boy... "
03:40 that becomes a conflict within myself
03:42 about who I am and...
03:45 so this went on for a couple of years...
03:47 every time she had the opportunity to babysit me
03:50 which was almost every weekend.
03:52 Yvonne: Were you an only child?
03:53 No, I had a brother and my brother got to go
03:56 to my other grandma's house.
03:58 Neither one of them wanted us both
03:59 so I got this grandma,
04:01 so I got this grandma...
04:03 I always teasingly say,
04:05 "Well, he got the good grandma
04:06 and I'm not sure I got the good one" but...
04:07 so this grandma...
04:09 it was in the LA area and it was behind a junkyard
04:13 in a small house and grandpa was a tow truck driver
04:17 and he was gone most of the time so when he was gone,
04:20 this is what grandma and I were doing.
04:22 And so, eventually, after a couple of years,
04:27 I really started kind of enjoying
04:30 the love and the affirmation and the encouragement
04:33 that I was getting... because she seemed to be very happy.
04:35 So it was making me happy that she was happy.
04:38 Now, do you know if she ever did this to anybody else?
04:42 To my knowledge, no.
04:44 Was she your maternal or paternal?
04:46 It was my mother's mother.
04:47 Okay, so she was dressing your mom up
04:50 in just regular "girl" clothes but there were no other siblings
04:54 that you had that she was doing this with, just you?
04:57 No, just me... yeah, and like I said,
04:59 she seemed to enjoy it a great deal
05:02 which made me enjoy it and so eventually, I decided,
05:07 "Gee, I want to wear this dress when I get home
05:09 but I'd have to... " I knew because it was a secret
05:11 I'd have to do it in secret
05:13 but I took the dress and put it in a brown bag
05:15 one time when dad was coming to pick me up
05:18 and take me back home, I got it home
05:20 and I stuffed it in the bottom drawer of my dresser
05:23 and a few days later, my mother found the dress
05:26 well then... there was a big explosion in the house,
05:29 "What are you doing with the dress?"
05:31 "How did this come about?"
05:32 So there was this big explanation
05:34 and when they found out
05:35 that grandma had been crossdressing me
05:37 for two-and-a-half years,
05:39 it was a tough place to live for a while
05:41 I mean... because they were in conflict,
05:44 I couldn't go to grandma's anymore
05:46 then I felt like it was my fault,
05:47 that I had done something wrong
05:49 so I was bad...
05:50 and then Dad, who was a police officer,
05:53 auxiliary police officer at that time
05:56 decided that the way to "man" me up
05:59 was to use some heavy discipline like hardwood floor planks
06:03 and things like that to discipline me
06:06 probably today it would be considered very harsh
06:10 and so, that was... I really believed though
06:13 within him, he was struggling with trying to...
06:17 he didn't know what to do, like most parents don't.
06:20 I mean, what do you do?
06:21 Here you have this situation
06:23 and it's a dynamic... in the family,
06:25 it's very difficult, you get a wife,
06:28 it's her mother, you get, you know, in-law...
06:30 the whole thing is just a whole wicked dynamic.
06:33 And my brother is kind of sitting back
06:35 watching this whole thing
06:36 and not knowing what to do himself.
06:37 How did your brother relate to you during this time
06:41 as all of this attention was on you,
06:43 how your brother react?
06:45 He kind of dove into silence and got into reading books
06:49 he just kind of disconnected and he became an avid reader
06:54 and he just read all the time book after book after book
06:59 and he was a year-and-a- half older than I was
07:02 and so that was his way of dealing with it,
07:06 he was kind of a... I would say,
07:07 "a strong, quiet intellect" in the family.
07:10 Hmmm... hmmm...
07:12 Can I bring up a thought,
07:13 one of the things that we have in common
07:15 is that we had very aggressive, masculine fathers
07:18 and because of my rejection of that masculinity
07:22 is why I ended up going towards my mother.
07:24 Do you think that your father's over-masculine influence
07:28 had some reaction as well?
07:31 Because he became abusive and overbearing,
07:34 is it possible that along with the crossdressing
07:37 with your grandmother, that had an influence as well?
07:40 Well, sure, I think anytime you get
07:43 any kind of heavy discipline like that... it's going to bound
07:46 it's bound to have some negative influence on you
07:49 that... you know... all of a sudden,
07:50 you're now bad with grandma
07:52 and bad with dad, I mean,
07:53 the things you're just not...
07:54 it's hard to know what to do
07:56 when you're six- or seven-years old.
07:58 How do you work through all these ailments?
08:00 So yeah, I think, definitely the discipline played a part in it.
08:04 Well, my thought would be that if your father was loving
08:08 and nurturing, then,
08:10 because you already had this identification
08:12 with the feminine side, imagine how that could have
08:15 drawn you into a masculine identity
08:17 if you had a father that was understanding
08:19 and receptive and nurturing.
08:21 Well, you know, it's funny, my dad was actually
08:24 kind of two-sided that way because part of him
08:26 wanted... he wanted to be with me
08:29 because I think he wanted to have that influence
08:31 so he spent time with me but I think he was always troubled
08:35 by what he knew grandma was doing
08:37 and I could almost see the pain in him...
08:39 in his own way, trying to deal with me.
08:42 He bought me a little shovel one time...
08:44 a little red-handled shovel and I'd go out in the yard
08:47 and start to dig along... beside him,
08:49 that was kind of... one of the things he did
08:51 but he would have these periods where he was fine
08:54 and loving and caring
08:56 but he'd have times where it just... he was so frustrated
09:00 that... then his discipline just got out of hand, yeah.
09:04 I wanted to ask you about your grandma for a minute
09:08 because it's really interesting to me,
09:10 how young children get victimized and groomed
09:14 and it seems as though your grandma was...
09:18 she told you, "This is a secret"
09:20 and that's what "groomers" do, is it not?
09:23 Right.
09:24 They make sure that the children who are the victims
09:27 don't tell a soul, "Do not tell... "
09:30 Did she threaten you or was it a joyful little secret
09:34 like... our playful little secret?
09:36 Yeah, it was a playful... that's the way I'd describe it,
09:37 a playful secret but isn't it interesting
09:40 that, you know, a secret is always kind of...
09:43 I didn't know at the age of four or five...
09:44 but there's always an indication there's something wrong.
09:47 Hmmm...
09:48 Right, a secret means somebody's doing something wrong.
09:50 Hmmm...
09:52 And what troubles me today
09:54 is the same thing that I know today from
09:57 looking back at my life is that
09:58 when you crossdress a young boy... as a girl,
10:02 you're actually emotionally and psychologically
10:06 committing abuse on that child.
10:07 Unpack that... unpack that for us...
10:11 Anytime you are beginning to dis-assemble
10:15 by virtue of crossdressing and disassemble their identity,
10:20 what's happening?
10:21 You're impacting who they think they are
10:24 and it becomes very confusing,
10:25 it's no wonder they end up with "gender dysphoria. "
10:27 So, when you crossdress them, you're saying...
10:31 many things... you're signaled without the words.
10:34 One, there's something wrong with you...
10:36 one, you're better as a girl... one, I like you better as a girl
10:39 I prefer you... all these different things
10:42 are messages that... they don't have to speak
10:44 but you're saying them by the fact
10:46 that you're actually putting him in a dress
10:49 and then talking to them as though they're a young girl
10:52 and presenting them that way.
10:54 So, what do you say to that parent that says,
10:57 "Little Johnny likes dresses,
11:00 little Johnny wants to comb hair and play with hair
11:04 and do all of this
11:05 so I'm just letting little Johnny be who he is.
11:08 Well, you know, that is a troubling issue
11:10 for parents, no doubt,
11:12 if I were raising a child,
11:14 I think all kids are curious about their gender.
11:18 I also think it's a parent's responsibility
11:21 to teach them about who they are
11:23 and I don't think it's healthy if a kid asks a question
11:28 about girly things,
11:30 I think they still need to encourage them
11:32 and influence them in the same way
11:35 they were trained to do as a female...
11:37 they encourage him as a male,
11:38 take him out and buy him boy's clothes
11:40 and encourage them as a boy,
11:42 encourage them in ways that are not going to
11:44 offend their ideas
11:47 or suggestions that they might like a "girl" thing.
11:50 Find the creative way of getting them engaged
11:54 in doing "boy" things.
11:55 I think you can do that very easily
11:58 if you just sit back and not think,
12:01 "Oh, I have a transgender kid"
12:03 because that's what happens with the parents today
12:05 is... there's sort of this automatic idea
12:08 because a kid says,
12:10 "I like this dress or I like that. "
12:11 "Oh, I've got a transgender kid"
12:13 it's almost... like we're manufacturing
12:15 transgender kids today
12:17 faster than anything I've ever seen.
12:21 So, what I find interesting is that I think
12:23 the Scriptures really support that kind of idea
12:26 because... when it talks about how
12:28 men should not wear women's clothing
12:29 and women should not wear men's clothing
12:31 every time that I was playing "dress up"
12:34 every time that my aunt would tease my hair
12:36 and fix it to look like a girl, it was confirming
12:39 this gender dysphoria for me
12:41 because God said in Genesis, "I made the male and female"
12:45 and one of the things that He had to tell me even recently
12:48 is that, "No, I didn't make a mistake... I made you a male"
12:51 and even in Psalm 139 it talks about how
12:55 I knit together your very inward parts, you know
12:58 the intimate parts of you, He knew who I was
13:02 and who I was... supposed to be
13:03 so every time that you are dressed up in that dress,
13:06 every time that I was dressing up in my mother's clothes,
13:09 I was affirming my dissatisfaction
13:11 for the sex that I was born with.
13:13 And so, not only do you find that...
13:15 that the Scriptures, I think, support that,
13:17 but now there was something else
13:19 that you were bringing out about behavior... versus identity
13:23 which to me was shocking.
13:24 Yeah, I think it's so interesting,
13:26 I've come to the conclusion after all these years
13:28 that a transgender is a "behavior"
13:32 it's not an "identity. "
13:33 See... that... this... this is as eye-opening a concept
13:40 to me as the whole idea
13:43 of LGBT being a civil rights issue.
13:47 Because once you frame it a certain way,
13:50 and once you frame it a certain way,
13:53 then there are certain suppositions that follow
13:57 and so, what you're saying is that
14:00 this is not a "gender" issue so much
14:03 as a "behavior... " a set of behaviors...
14:06 Walt: That's right.
14:07 Yvonne: Unpack that some more for us.
14:09 Yeah, well, any time... we look at the word "behavior"
14:11 and if you look at the LGBT like... you're talking about,
14:14 you have "a behavior," their whole thing collapses
14:18 because they're basing everything
14:19 on the fact that they are "born that way,"
14:21 that it's genetic
14:22 and what I'm saying is it's not genetic,
14:24 I haven't seen any evidence of it... that it's genetic
14:28 the only thing I've seen is that
14:30 we have pain in a child's life,
14:32 we have events where they're being crossdressed
14:34 which I think, crossdressing in of itself...
14:36 is abuse.
14:38 Hmmm...
14:39 And so, when you look at... some parent will tell me,
14:42 "Well, he's never had any trauma or anything in his life"
14:45 I said, "Were you crossdressing him?"
14:46 That's trauma, it's abusive
14:49 and today, we've come to this place where
14:53 we're accepting the idea of dressing boys as girls
14:57 and thinking that they're surviving this whole ideology
15:01 and they're not... and the best example of that
15:04 was a show that I saw in Network TV
15:07 where the young boy... the mother's being interviewed
15:09 and it's a long show where they're showing the kid
15:12 going to school and he'd been going to school
15:14 as a girl for some... three or four years
15:16 and in this one particular shot
15:19 the interviewer is talking to the mother,
15:21 the mother has the boy sitting at the dining table
15:24 and mom's combing the hair and she's talking about how
15:26 they're getting hormone blockers
15:29 and they're doing all these different things
15:31 and she's like... what reflected on me was
15:33 the fact that she was acting much like my grandmother did
15:36 so I really connected with this
15:38 and so she's combing the child's hair
15:40 and the interviewer is interviewing mom
15:43 and in this one amazing moment, the child turns his head back
15:48 and looks at mom and said,
15:50 "Would you love me if I was a boy?"
15:53 Wow!
15:56 so the child is actually saying,
16:00 "I sense that you want this for me. "
16:03 Exactly, exactly and then it began this process
16:09 with the camera rolling
16:11 where mom kind of stepped back, was a little shocked
16:13 and the boy says,
16:15 "Well, I'm not sure that I want to be a girl"
16:17 and mom says,
16:19 "Well, I've never heard this before"
16:20 but I think what's happening in this particular scene was
16:24 that mom was sort of pushing this agenda so hard
16:28 and she was wearing it almost like a badge of honor
16:31 that she has a transgender kid and she's on television
16:34 showing what she's doing
16:35 not realizing or not having anyone there
16:39 to suggest that this may be abusive and not healthy...
16:42 psychologically... for this kid,
16:44 and then the kid turns around and said,
16:46 "Would you love me if I was a boy?"
16:48 I mean... I wept... and I just couldn't believe
16:53 that mom was so forceful in this in pushing...
16:57 obviously pushing...
16:59 because they show... during the show
17:00 taking the boy to get hormone blockers...
17:03 it looked like it was her agenda and not the boy's.
17:06 That's what it sounds like
17:08 so, tell us some more about what happened with you.
17:10 How did you... from the time you were four,
17:13 how did you then deal with life?
17:18 After that seed had been planted what did you do?
17:21 Yeah, once that seed was planted...
17:23 and then... the two-and-a-half years expired
17:26 and I couldn't go to grandma's anymore,
17:29 I remember, sometime after that time
17:31 when I couldn't go to grandma's,
17:34 I woke up in the morning just weeping... crying...
17:38 I'm only seven years old and I'm crying
17:40 and everybody is upset, "Why are you crying?"
17:43 And I couldn't even explain why I was crying
17:46 but something was deeply broken within me
17:50 and I believe today as I look back,
17:52 my identity had been broken, I couldn't figure out who I was
17:56 and in the midst of this struggle...
17:59 I literally cried from morning until night,
18:03 here I was... seven years old...
18:04 my parents got fed up with me and left the house
18:08 and just said, "You stay here,
18:09 we don't even want to deal with you anymore. "
18:11 They didn't want to deal with the pain that I was feeling
18:14 and I couldn't explain where the pain was coming from
18:17 and I think when we see transgender children today
18:21 who identify in this behavior,
18:24 is that they can't explain where the pain is coming from,
18:27 they don't have the whole equipment,
18:29 tools and psychological ability to know the consequences
18:33 of what's going to happen down the road.
18:35 So, we're really doing a great disservice to young people
18:40 to suggest that they're a different gender
18:42 and then encouraging them to change genders because
18:45 we don't know the consequences.
18:47 Now they have school curriculums that are actually
18:50 trying to introduce this to Kindergarten-age kids
18:53 where... I have a client that actually
18:56 has a Day Care in a small town in Tennessee
18:58 and if she wants Government funding,
19:01 she has to allow the girls to dress up as boys
19:04 and the boys to dress up as girls.
19:05 And we're talking about zero to five-year-old children
19:08 if she wants Government funding.
19:10 Oh my! Mike, your experience
19:13 was kind of similar in that... you wanted to be a girl,
19:18 tell us a little bit about that.
19:20 Well, for me, it was Gender Dysphoria
19:22 but it was brought on basically because of the
19:24 defensive detachment that I had with my father,
19:26 it didn't come from my grandmother,
19:28 it was... the fact that... when I was at that age
19:31 where I was transitioning to my gender...
19:33 it was my father... and he... either wasn't available
19:36 because he was in the Navy,
19:37 so he'd be gone for three to six months at a time,
19:39 so, for a little boy between the ages of one and three,
19:42 that's almost half my life but then when my father was home
19:45 he was this hot-headed abusive Italian,
19:47 he was loud, he was angry
19:50 and so, at that time when I was transitioning,
19:52 he was frightening to me and very... it was undesirable,
19:57 his masculinity, so, in my defense,
19:59 even before I was conscious, I had detached from my father
20:01 and so the only example left was my mother
20:04 they talk about how every little child's identity
20:06 is like wet cement,
20:08 they don't know that they're male or female
20:10 and so, at this time when my cement was wet,
20:12 I returned back to my mother, she was soft,
20:15 I wanted to walk like her, talk like her,
20:17 and so my cement became hardened in the feminine,
20:20 and so I didn't know how to fix it, I was just a little boy,
20:23 but I thought that... I knew that something was wrong
20:25 the other kids were calling me names
20:28 and I knew that I was different than them
20:30 even though I wasn't sexualized
20:32 but for me, that's where it began.
20:34 You know, what I'm hearing
20:35 is... and what I've heard from the rest of your team
20:38 in 'Coming Out' Ministries as well,
20:40 is this brokenness, that there's some kind of trauma
20:46 that takes place early... in early childhood,
20:50 that causes this brokenness,
20:54 and where modern society has gotten off balance
20:59 is they don't use Jesus as the answer
21:01 everything else is the answer,
21:03 let Johnny dress up like Susie,
21:05 let Susie be Johnny, let... and... and...
21:09 the real deal is, well, you brought this up...
21:13 is... behavior versus gender identity.
21:17 Address the behavior.
21:19 That's exactly right and
21:21 today we're trying to take a behavior
21:25 and transform a behavior into an identity
21:28 and as a result of that,
21:30 what people don't seem to be able to pull together
21:34 like I can, at least I can see...
21:37 because I attempted suicide and...
21:39 Yvonne: At what age?
21:40 I was probably in my early forties,
21:43 I'd been struggling all this time
21:46 and 39... 40... somewhere in that...
21:49 I don't remember the exact time but I tried to commit suicide
21:52 and what we have with this population is
21:56 they attempt suicide at a rate above 40 percent
22:00 and the young people age group...
22:03 this was a study out of the State of Washington
22:06 and they said the age group between ten and twenty four
22:10 attempt suicide at the rate of around fifty percent.
22:14 So, I would ask anybody who has the ability to think
22:18 and reason a little bit that this... introducing...
22:22 this behavior to children is doing such damage
22:25 that they actually want to attempt suicide
22:28 at some point during this transition period
22:30 whether it's early or later in life
22:32 because it's so destructive to them,
22:35 we've taken away their core identity
22:37 and told them they're not who they are.
22:39 Hmmm...
22:40 So when that happened to you and you... before the forties...
22:44 let's talk about the teenage years a bit.
22:46 When you were a teenager,
22:48 with whom were you identifying at that point?
22:51 Were you more... acting more feminine or
22:54 were you acting masculine,
22:56 where was your head at that time?
22:58 Well, I was two sided... within... inside me...
23:02 I had the "girl in the purple dress"
23:04 and I gave her the name: Crystal West.
23:07 So she stayed inside and I presented myself
23:10 as Walt... outside... and in going to school
23:14 I had girlfriends, I ran track,
23:16 I played in football, I played basketball,
23:18 I did all the things, but inside me... was Crystal.
23:23 Yvonne: Were you attracted to boys?
23:25 Walt: No...
23:26 You were never attracted... you were never homosexual?
23:29 No, I never had any homosexual ideas or anything,
23:33 I was strictly heterosexual
23:35 with this "girl" living inside me that wanted to come out
23:39 but I knew back then the dangers
23:42 and not knowing myself what it was all about,
23:46 I had to deal with this solely on my own.
23:49 I mean, it's a long time ago that I was dealing with this
23:52 this is in the '50s...
23:54 so, I was something
23:57 fairly fresh and new if I would have "come out" that time.
24:00 Yvonne: You're looking good Brother.
24:02 Walt: Oh yeah, you know, thank you,
24:04 I've had a lot of work...
24:06 You know what I think is interesting though
24:09 is... just because someone has transgender ideation
24:13 doesn't mean that they're gay
24:15 and I think that a lot of times,
24:16 we put people in that compartment that
24:18 "Oh, if you're transgender, then you're gay"
24:20 but Walt, weren't you sharing with me
24:22 that... there's actually more transgender
24:24 that are still heterosexual rather than homosexual.
24:27 You know, it's true,
24:28 the vast majority of transgenders
24:31 are heterosexual, they're not homosexual,
24:33 they don't want to be homosexual
24:35 I mean, some of them will be drag queens
24:37 but they don't really want to have the full regiment
24:40 of surgery and change your identity in that way,
24:43 they like to play with it,
24:44 they like to play the female role
24:46 but they don't want to become a female.
24:48 Yeah, let's talk about the surgery for a minute
24:51 because you actually underwent the surgery,
24:54 what was going on in your head
24:56 just prior to the surgery?
24:59 Yeah, well I... you know... this whole "pain thing"
25:02 that started when I was a young child,
25:04 I had carried on...
25:05 by this time when I was considering surgery,
25:07 I was forty-years old,
25:09 I had gone and struggled with this for my entire life
25:13 trying to deal with the pain
25:15 and the confusion about my gender,
25:17 who was I, the abuses,
25:19 and so, I went in to the psychologist
25:23 who actually wrote the
25:24 "WPATH Standards of Care" for the treatment of transgenders
25:28 because... I was well enough off
25:30 to be able to afford somebody like that
25:32 and I went in and I said,
25:33 "What do I need to do to get rid of this
25:35 whole 'identity thing' that I have been struggling with?"
25:38 He said, "Well... " he said, "You are gender dysphoric,
25:41 you need hormone therapy and you need surgery. "
25:44 And that was in 1981 and still...
25:48 I knew it was true but it pained me to think
25:53 that that's what I had to do to get right with myself.
25:56 So I waited two more years and I went back to him
25:59 and asked him again,
26:01 I said, "Really? I've been still struggling. "
26:03 By this time I was... I'd still been married now...
26:06 I'd been married almost 17 years by this time.
26:08 Yvonne: I was going to ask you about what was going on
26:10 in your personal life.
26:11 Yeah, I had a good job and I had a marriage
26:13 that was starting to falter
26:15 because I was struggling so deeply with the issues
26:18 that just had not been addressed properly when I was younger.
26:22 Did she know? Did your wife know?
26:23 Yeah, she knew I was struggling, it was painful for her
26:26 and painful for me to continue to try to hide it
26:30 and still be an income earner with a good job,
26:35 I was an Executive with a large automobile company
26:37 and so, when he... I went the second time
26:41 and he said, "Yeah, this is what you need to do"
26:43 I realized that at that point I thought and was convinced
26:47 that the surgery would get rid of all that pain
26:49 that started when I was a young kid
26:51 and that was the only way to do it,
26:54 I saw no alternatives at that time
26:57 that were going to take away that childhood pain
27:00 and all this difficulty... I'd had now for 40 years in my life,
27:04 so, I got divorced and opted for the surgery
27:08 and underwent the surgery in 1983
27:11 and after the surgery there was this
27:15 very euphoric kind of exciting, "I finally made it" thing...
27:19 and it did feel like there was this great relief
27:23 and the weight of the world had been lifted off
27:26 I had finally arrived where I had been wanting to be
27:29 and... and... it was, "good"
27:31 and there I was, now I was Laura Jensen
27:37 with a whole new identity
27:38 and I went and got my birth record changed,
27:41 I got all my records changed
27:42 but when I notified the Automobile Company,
27:46 I was terminated so I didn't have an income
27:50 and eventually I ended up homeless and living in a Park
27:55 as a transgender female.
27:57 My! so, you made the decision to have the surgery
28:02 which... in and of itself... is huge...
28:05 because that... that's just huge... right, so...
28:09 Walt: It's huge...
28:10 Yvonne: It's huge, I mean, it's life changing... literally,
28:14 so, you decided to have the surgery,
28:17 you have it, you then have to deal with
28:21 "life as a woman,"
28:22 you have to deal with being fired from your job,
28:28 the humiliation and shame attached to that
28:31 and then you end up losing everything.
28:34 Your home, your status, and really your identity
28:38 because now you're living in a new reality.
28:42 Walt: Yeah, it's true.
28:44 How did that... how did that work?
28:46 Before I ask you that, I want to go back for a minute,
28:49 to your married life because
28:53 so many questions arise like, you know,
28:56 in somebody like me who has no clue
28:59 about the whole lifestyle
29:01 and what goes on... and the pain
29:03 and the angst along with it,
29:05 how did you and your wife relate to each other
29:09 during that time,
29:11 during that time when you were battling with this pain
29:15 of "Am I a woman inside?"
29:18 Or "I want Laura Jensen to come out, but she can't come out"
29:22 how did you and your wife relate to each other?
29:24 We had a very normal sex life, relationship...
29:29 it was our life... really... everybody looked at us...
29:32 it looked like the perfect little family,
29:34 you know, good income, nice cars, nice house,
29:37 all that stuff was there, it was in place,
29:39 the picture was good,
29:41 the pain was in here that people didn't know about
29:45 and I was getting better and better about covering it up
29:48 until I started using more and more alcohol
29:50 and then... that's when the wheels started coming off
29:54 with the marriage and my emotions, my struggles
29:57 and the more alcohol I used, the more difficult things became
30:01 so, once alcohol was introduced into this thing,
30:05 literally, that's when things began to collapse.
30:08 Hmmm... so you had, in general,
30:12 a... what seemed to be... a normal, healthy relationship
30:17 until the alcohol was introduced and then...
30:21 again... I often talk about... on Dare to Dream...
30:25 and in Urban Report, I often talk about
30:27 God's plan... and Satan's plan...
30:29 and Satan's plan is to take you down,
30:32 by whatever means necessary, just take you down,
30:36 and of course, God's plan
30:37 is to elevate you to the best that you can be
30:41 and so Satan introduces the alcohol and that...
30:45 on top of all the pain that you already have
30:48 just ends you up more broken, now without your family
30:54 because now you're... and homeless.
30:55 Walt: Right... yeah.
30:57 How did you recover from that?
31:00 How did you go from, you know, Park Bench,
31:03 to back being financially solvent?
31:06 Well, that was interesting because at the time that
31:09 I was living in the Park, I was...
31:11 my friends know about this, I had this rabbit fur coat
31:15 that I was wearing that I'd gotten from a second-hand store
31:18 and I was sleeping...
31:19 and if you can imagine sleeping on the wet grass...
31:22 in a rabbit fur coat in a Park...
31:24 Yvonne: Were you attracting squirrels and rabbits?
31:28 Yeah, yeah, I probably was.
31:29 Yeah, I mean, you know people...
31:34 they stay their distance because I was sort of...
31:37 here I was... looking somewhat like a female
31:40 but I was early in the transition,
31:43 I was obviously not very healthy,
31:46 I wasn't clean and I remember
31:48 I was struggling with this alcohol
31:50 and I remembered somebody a few years prior to that
31:53 that was at the automobile company
31:55 had said, "If you ever need help
31:57 with your alcoholism, give me a call. "
31:58 So I got up from the Park and I went to this little restaurant
32:02 and people started scattering as I came in the front door
32:07 of the restaurant, here comes this,
32:09 "whatever this is in the rabbit fur coat"
32:10 and I started asking for money so that I could...
32:14 because then... that was that long ago,
32:16 that you could use coins to make a phone call
32:18 and I looked her name up, I got the coins actually,
32:21 one of the waitresses gave me some of her tip money
32:24 and I called Marilyn and I said,
32:26 "Marilyn, I'm ready for a meeting"
32:27 And she said, "Where are you?"
32:29 And I told her where I was, and... so she had a friend
32:32 that was the guy who went to AAA meetings
32:36 and he came and picked me up and he took one look at me
32:39 and he brought me to his house but he put me in the garage
32:43 he left me in the garage, so, he had a couple of couches
32:49 that he moved out in the garage and a couple of chairs
32:51 and... I mean... I was not real appealing
32:54 and I went to my first AAA meeting with him
32:57 and at that time, you know,
32:59 people hug at AAA meetings if you've every been to one,
33:03 well, no one hugged me. Yvonne: Oh, bless your heart.
33:06 Walt: So...
33:07 Were you feeling rejection at that point?
33:09 What were you feeling?
33:10 Well, I was feeling great
33:12 because I had a couch to sleep on...
33:13 it's a lot better than that the grass in the Park
33:16 so I felt like I'd gone up now, you know...
33:19 I was feeling good and so, that started...
33:22 sort of the journey through this process
33:25 that took many, many years after that.
33:28 Wow! Mike when you went through...
33:31 you never did the whole... like gender transformation thing
33:35 or anything but when you were at your lowest
33:40 what was it that brought you back up?
33:44 What was it that made you decide that this is not for me?
33:47 Well, it's interesting, there's no formula for why
33:50 someone is transgender nor the cure for that
33:53 the transgenderism was the worst for me, at puberty,
33:57 when I was 13-years old, I was in 8th Grade,
33:59 we lived in Detroit, Michigan, and they had a swimming pool,
34:02 built-in swimming pool, guys had it one week
34:05 girls had it the next week, here I am...
34:07 I'm a late bloomer and I started school when I was five
34:10 so, you know, everyone else is older than me
34:12 and much more developed,
34:13 and the school policy was that the boys swam naked
34:17 and so, here we are, standing on the side of the pool
34:20 doing jumping jacks, pairing up for sit ups
34:23 and so, when I'm surrounded by
34:25 more feeling of inadequacy as a male
34:27 and then the fact that you know,
34:29 I'm in a different school, still being called names,
34:32 still being put down,
34:33 that was the height of my transgender feelings,
34:36 I grew my hair out to my shoulders,
34:38 I remember fantasizing about being a female
34:41 and I think that for me the worst was
34:43 when I was confronted with how inadequate I was,
34:46 that it didn't measure up, that that's when it was the strongest
34:48 what was remarkable is that it wasn't any grand event
34:53 that actually took the transgender feelings away
34:55 but when I was 20-years old,
34:57 when I came out in the Gay culture,
34:58 because I couldn't find answers in the church,
35:01 I remember that... I realized that masculinity
35:04 in Gay culture was much more valuable than femininity
35:07 and so if I just butchered up a little more
35:09 and start working out at the gym,
35:10 then I found that I started to get what I was looking for
35:14 which was male affirmation and so as I got male affirmation,
35:17 then, I was finally comfortable with who I was physically
35:21 and my gender and my parts...
35:24 actually made sense and I found peace with that.
35:28 It's amazing isn't it how the whole journey,
35:32 it's just like, you know, you have this phase
35:35 and then this phase... and then this phase
35:38 and all along God is leading you
35:41 toward Him, He is wooing you,
35:43 the Holy Spirit is wooing you but you don't even realize it
35:46 how, Walt, did you find Jesus Christ?
35:50 Well, you know, I started... I went to church
35:54 while I was at the Recovery House
35:57 and I was going to meetings at that time,
36:00 I really needed to go to church and I went to a church
36:04 and I remember sitting down with the pastor
36:07 before I went into church and told him about my life
36:10 because I had gone to a church some time before that
36:13 and the pastor had told me,
36:15 "We don't want your kind in our church"
36:16 which was painful but yet it was interesting when I asked him,
36:21 "Well, what kind do you want?" you know, we're all broken...
36:26 it's just that my brokenness is very visible,
36:29 most everybody else's brokenness is quite hidden.
36:32 Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... it's true.
36:35 As long as you keep it hidden, it's okay.
36:38 Right... right...
36:40 But don't put it out there on Front Street
36:42 so, what he said really struck me
36:46 and he kind of leaned back in his big leather chair
36:48 and he said, "No," he said,
36:50 "I'm not going to try to change you,"
36:51 he said, "My job is to love you
36:53 it's God's job to change you. "
36:55 And that just sunk in and even though it took years
36:59 after that, I never forgot what he said to me that day
37:04 because I knew that that moment,
37:06 that God was on a journey to change me
37:09 I just didn't know how it was going to come about,
37:11 I knew that my body had been altered badly,
37:15 and that I'd gone through a lot of things in my life
37:18 but I knew that the Lord Jesus Christ
37:23 had the power to redeem and restore my life
37:26 and I was getting prepared for that
37:28 and so, I stayed at that church and they actually encouraged me
37:34 to write a prayer letter so that the group of people
37:36 could actually... kind of look at what was going on in my life
37:40 as I wrote it and some of the early prayer letters were
37:43 very crude and very difficult
37:46 because I was struggling so deeply
37:48 and I started writing those prayer letters on a weekly basis
37:53 and then they became a monthly prayer letter
37:56 and I could see how in those prayer letters
37:59 that my life was beginning to transform as I wrote them
38:02 people... I had these people praying for me
38:05 and so, I eventually was working through my 12-Step Program
38:12 and I was meeting with the Counselor, a PhD Counselor
38:15 and we were praying one day and we got in this prayer time
38:21 and I wasn't much of a praying person,
38:23 I just... I had a hard time just praying in silence
38:27 it was tough for me but that day
38:29 I felt really moved to listen and let him pray
38:33 and he was praying and during that prayer,
38:36 with my eyes closed... I could see the Lord Jesus Christ
38:42 coming to me, I could see His face,
38:46 I could see His robe,
38:47 I could see His arms reaching out to me
38:49 and at that moment, I saw myself as a little baby
38:53 wrapped in cloth and He picked me up
38:55 and held me in His arms and He said,
38:57 "You will be safe with me forever"
39:00 and He eventually disappeared then...
39:03 and I knew at that moment that He'd come
39:06 to redeem and restore my life
39:09 and I knew that I was going to be fine
39:11 and from that moment on
39:13 my life completely was transformed by that
39:16 and interesting enough
39:18 I still write a prayer letter to the same people
39:21 the ones that are still there now, every month,
39:24 they still get to hear the journey
39:26 and that's over 30 years of prayer letters.
39:29 Wow!
39:30 You know, something that I picked up on that?
39:32 This is the second time I've heard that, but you said,
39:35 "You'll be safe with me forever"
39:37 and here we think we're talking about a gender issue when
39:40 was the issue really for you... Walt,
39:43 "I never felt safe"
39:45 didn't feel safe with the grandmother,
39:46 didn't feel safe with your father,
39:48 didn't even feel safe with yourself,
39:50 I don't know... is there something to that?
39:53 Sure could be...
39:54 "You are safe with me now. "
39:56 Yvonne: Yeah, yeah, yeah...
39:57 I just felt that He had picked up the child of Walt...
40:00 and pulled him back in and redeemed him
40:02 and restored me and I can go on to live my life
40:04 like I do today... serving Jesus Christ
40:07 and speaking about His transformation
40:10 and His power in my life.
40:11 Yvonne: Yes, as Walt... Walt: as Walt...
40:13 Yvonne: no more Laura... Walt: No more Laura...
40:15 Praise God, so from that moment on,
40:17 that was the end of Laura?
40:19 Was that the end?
40:20 It began... it wasn't like that, snaps finger...
40:23 it wasn't like flipping a switch off,
40:25 but you could see the incremental changes
40:27 as I went through the process
40:29 and began to stop "behaving" like Laura.
40:35 Hmmm... hmmm...
40:36 I had become the man that God had created me to be.
40:38 So there was a process to become Laura,
40:41 there was a process of deconstructing a behavior
40:45 of being transgender and once that behavior is over,
40:49 that's when you realize... you really have everything.
40:53 You really have got it and you're really living the life...
40:57 I mean, today, I'm sober 30 years,
40:59 I'm married almost 19 years
41:02 you talk about redemption and restoration
41:04 He gave it to me that day when He picked me up.
41:07 Yvonne: Amen, yes, yes, how beautiful
41:09 and that's what He came to do.
41:11 To give us life and life more abundantly.
41:15 That's what He promises and you two...
41:18 are both... examples of that
41:20 because as I talked to you all
41:23 and as I've talked to Mike over the years
41:25 and the 'Coming Out' Ministries' Team
41:28 whom I love... like... I just feel like God is...
41:31 He's in the restoration business
41:33 that's what He does with all of us
41:35 we all have our issues no one needs to look at you
41:39 or you or anybody, or me...
41:41 or anybody else and say, "Well, you're this or you're that"
41:44 No... yeah, I'm this or that...
41:46 and you're this or that... we all have issues
41:49 that's why we're all sinners in need of a Savior
41:52 and that's why Jesus Christ came
41:53 so He has restored you, He's given you a whole new life
41:59 with a whole new identity, you are now... Walt...
42:02 without looking back at "Laura. "
42:06 So, how do people in the LGBT Community
42:12 look at you... because you are the exact opposite
42:16 of what they're promoting and I want to talk a bit about
42:19 that whole "promotion thing" because I think
42:22 what's happening in Society now is that
42:25 this Movement is being promoted as something that should be...
42:31 should be exalted, should be glorified
42:34 and we're not supposed to call it sin
42:37 because in so doing... we're not politically correct,
42:40 we're not... so... let's talk a bit about
42:42 promoting this agenda.
42:44 Well, yeah, they've done an outstanding job
42:46 of selling the Nation... in fact, almost the entire world
42:50 that a "behavior" is an "identity" and as such
42:55 they've gone and passed laws to protect this behavior
42:59 and they've allowed people to go into restrooms
43:01 and we're seeing all this...
43:03 which is so damaging to the individual themselves
43:07 as well as the Nation, so, they've done a great job
43:11 of confusing us about who we are
43:14 and now, it wasn't too long ago they came out with
43:16 50-some different genders...
43:18 Yvonne: Wait... what?
43:21 Yes, they came out and said, Facebook came out...
43:23 because the LGBT came out
43:25 with this whole gender spectrum
43:27 of some 46 to 50 different genders
43:30 so what they're trying to do is
43:32 completely... the real agenda... is to eradicate gender
43:37 once they eradicate gender, then they can eradicate marriage
43:42 because... no longer... gender, no man... no woman...
43:45 they're trying to take men and women off the bathroom doors
43:49 and just have them all be the same,
43:52 so once you completely destroy gender,
43:56 you can destroy the family, you can destroy identity
43:59 and you have this horrible mess of people
44:05 not knowing who they are
44:07 and this... in my view...
44:09 is why we see so many of these young people
44:12 and older people who have transitioned now
44:15 attempting suicide at such high rates.
44:17 They don't know who they are, they don't know where to turn,
44:19 they have no foundation in which... to live their life.
44:24 In Jesus Christ, we know who we are,
44:28 it's says, "we're born a man... we're born woman...
44:30 we are to join in marriage as man and woman and be a family"
44:35 you know, when you break that apart,
44:37 you've got pieces scattered all over the place like we do today.
44:40 Hmmm... hmmm... hmmmm... hmmm...
44:42 I think it fits, again, with the times that we're living in,
44:44 it talks about how... in the Garden of Eden
44:47 before sin even entered the world,
44:49 that marriage was one of the institutions
44:51 that was established by God in a perfect world
44:53 and now, all of a sudden, it's...
44:55 marriage is under attack too... not only is it sexual identity,
44:59 maybe the cloaking issue but really
45:02 the undermining issue is the fact that the enemy,
45:04 Satan is out to destroy marriage...
45:06 one of the institutions that God had ordained in Eden.
45:10 At creation... the two institutions
45:12 that He... that God ordained
45:14 they're under attack... marriage and Sabbath.
45:17 And that's a very interesting phenomenon to me
45:19 that Satan wants to destroy the things
45:23 that God has established, that's his whole deal.
45:27 You're right, we shouldn't forget the foundation
45:30 of marriage, is it not... gender?
45:33 And, wait... wait Walt,
45:35 the foundation of marriage
45:38 was the complete expression of who God was.
45:41 Remember it wasn't until after He created Eve
45:43 that He stood back and He said,
45:45 "This is the express image of who I am"
45:47 the relationship between one man and one woman.
45:51 Wow, yeah... that's very, very deep.
45:56 So, you... you...
45:59 without necessarily naming the Networks...
46:01 but you've been invited to different Networks,
46:04 tell us about how that played out.
46:06 Mike: The Limo ride...
46:08 Yvonne: Yeah, tell us about the Limo ride.
46:10 Well, I've been invited to be on many TV shows
46:13 and... they... they... all they know is
46:16 I'm a transgender, apparently,
46:17 and they get me in the Limo, they schedule me to be on...
46:20 they get me in the Limo... I'm headed down to the Station
46:23 and then they find out that I'm not somebody
46:26 who's an LGBT Advocate... that I'm not...
46:29 I don't believe this behavior should be an identity
46:32 and so, I'll get a call... one time I was
46:35 could see the Station where I was supposed go
46:38 to be on at 6:00 in the morning,
46:39 I got up at 4:00... got a Limo ride at 5:00
46:41 and I was there before 6:00,
46:43 the Producer called me and said, "No, no, no, you can't...
46:46 you have to tell them to turn the car around
46:48 and go back home and take you back home. "
46:49 That's happened... many times...
46:51 so, they want to make sure they keep things squeaky clean
46:58 on television and they don't want people like me...
47:01 coming out and suggesting that a "behavior" now
47:05 has become an "identity" and that if it's a behavior,
47:09 which I believe it is from my own experience
47:11 and from the thousands of people that I get...
47:14 that have come to my website for the last ten years...
47:16 And what is your website?
47:18 It's called: sexchangeregret. com
47:21 and: atransgendersfaith. com
47:25 Yvonne: You have two?
47:26 I have two, yeah.
47:28 Yvonne: Say it again, and we'll have it up on the screen.
47:30 Yeah, so, sexchangeregret. com
47:32 and: atransgendersfaith. com
47:34 and so... people come to these websites
47:37 and they find things that they've never heard
47:40 because they don't allow me on television to talk about it.
47:42 Right, so, it's new information and it's...
47:46 What I have found is like... last year,
47:49 the website: sexchangeregret. com
47:51 got over 350,000 visits
47:53 and last year I was seen on media around the world
47:58 by over 300 million people
48:00 so, I'm able to get the message out
48:03 in every place outside of the U.S.
48:06 But the US does not want your message
48:09 to be promoted... because it goes against the agenda.
48:14 It's not politically correct to speak the way I speak
48:18 because I look at the letters of regret
48:21 that I get from people whose lives, just like mine,
48:25 have been totally damaged by the surgery,
48:27 totally damaged by a behavior
48:29 that someone told him was an identity... and it wasn't,
48:33 and they write me and say, "Now, what do I do?
48:35 I'm ten or fifteen years down the road
48:37 and I don't know how to come back, and... "
48:40 Yvonne: Are these people who've had the surgery?
48:43 Yes, yes, I get them frequently and I get people
48:47 who are near the edge, or have gone through it
48:50 or want help, I get those letters every day.
48:53 And so, when you get a pastor that comes to you and says,
49:00 "How do I deal with this in my church?
49:03 Like... what... what do you say,
49:05 how do you love the transgendered person
49:10 without reinforcing the behavior?"
49:12 Yeah, that's a great question, you know,
49:14 one of the things that's so important,
49:16 from what we've talked about today,
49:18 is we know... that the people who are acting out
49:21 in this transgender behavior, are hurting...
49:24 they've been injured, they've been damaged,
49:26 they've had something go wrong in their life,
49:29 and as such, if we're going to help them,
49:32 we need to sit down and listen to them,
49:34 we don't need to sort of support or encourage their behavior,
49:40 what we do need to do is find out
49:43 why they came to this conclusion
49:45 that they were a different gender, what happened?
49:47 I want to sit down with the people,
49:48 like I have done... I have sat across and said,
49:50 "What happened?" "When did this start?"
49:53 "When did you first get this feeling?"
49:55 "What type of relationship do you have with your father?"
49:58 "What type of relationship do you have with your mother?"
50:00 And, were they in a Foster home that was abusive?
50:04 Were they abused by a neighbor? What... did something...
50:07 Because, I have found 100 percent of the time,
50:10 my wife and I laugh about this now,
50:11 when they write me and say, "Well, the home life was fine"
50:14 and then I ask, five or ten good questions
50:17 and they write back... and you see...
50:18 that it was a total disaster. Yvonne: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
50:21 So, we do have... if we're going to be helping
50:25 people in a church, we have to sit down with them
50:28 and get to know what's causing them to hurt
50:32 and many of them, we know
50:33 62.7 percent of them
50:36 according to studies, are suffering from
50:38 Axis 1: psychological and psychiatric...
50:40 called "Comorbid disorders. "
50:42 Gender Dysphoria, by itself,
50:44 is the way they diagnose the condition
50:48 but under Gender Dysphoria,
50:49 is a comorbid disorder like, Dissociation
50:52 or Bi-Polar disorders or Schizophrenia
50:56 or Separation Anxiety, all these different disorders
51:00 that are never diagnosed by the attending physicians
51:03 who work with transgenders, they just overlook it
51:07 and offer them hormones
51:08 and send them on the road to having surgery
51:11 when in fact they're suffering from psychological
51:14 and psychiatric issues
51:16 if properly treated...
51:18 would alleviate the desire to change genders.
51:20 Mike: Exactly.
51:21 That's so... that is so deep,
51:25 so the label of Gender Dysphoria is really like the Band-Aid
51:31 that's covering the real issue, the real disorders
51:36 that you mentioned.
51:38 What I identified... is the yellow flag signaling caution,
51:42 there's something wrong. Yvonne: Hmmm...
51:43 And... because that is not...
51:46 we shouldn't be embracing Gender Dysphoria
51:49 because... it is nothing but a behavior
51:52 to tell us that something is hurting them
51:54 and they don't want to be who they are
51:56 so they're now attempting
51:59 to become someone who they can never really be.
52:01 Wow! that is incredible, you want to say something, Mike?
52:05 Well, just... well imagine
52:07 what that would have been for me if all of a sudden...
52:09 now they have laws to protect kids
52:11 that are transgender to have that sex change
52:13 so if I was 20-years old and then realized
52:16 that I was okay as a male,
52:18 only now, I've mutilated my body to resemble a female,
52:21 imagine how much more complicated
52:23 my issues would have been.
52:24 Absolutely, I mean, it's... it's just kind of incredible
52:28 that... that... what we're doing as a Society,
52:33 is to really make... make it all worse
52:36 instead of addressing the underlying issues
52:39 we're addressing... there's a manifest issue
52:42 and a latent issue
52:44 and we're addressing the manifest
52:45 without really dealing with the latent issue.
52:48 We're dealing with the symptom and not the problem.
52:49 Yvonne: Right.
52:51 And that is only a symptom
52:52 and I've had people write me a letter
52:55 and... an e-mail...
52:56 and I would have left church one time and got home,
52:59 looked at my e-mail and here's a letter from a guy
53:01 which says, "Please write me as soon as possible,
53:04 I'm going down to the store
53:05 to buy a gun and blow my brains out. "
53:07 Three years post surgery,
53:09 he was the same age I was when he had surgery,
53:13 he was a pilot making 200,000 dollars a year,
53:16 and he went through the surgery
53:18 now he is without a job, he's struggling
53:22 and wants to commit suicide.
53:24 I worked with him over 250 e-mails,
53:27 phone calls, and encouraging him...
53:30 he's alive today, he's back in being a pilot
53:33 and he's back being a man.
53:34 Mike: Amen. Yvonne: Praise the Lord.
53:37 What a blessing... what a blessing it is
53:39 to have you working with those...
53:42 you've been through the experience
53:44 the whole experience including the surgery
53:48 and you're helping people
53:51 who've been there, what a blessing!
53:53 Mike, I need to get your website information
53:56 before we close too
53:57 so that people know how to contact you
53:59 in 'Coming Out' Ministries.
54:00 Sure, it's: comingoutministries. org
54:04 That's it, comingoutministries. org
54:09 we have 30 seconds,
54:11 can you just give a closing thought, Walt,
54:14 to somebody who is going through that situation,
54:18 just 30 seconds.
54:20 Just understand that the people are hurting
54:23 and that are struggling with this
54:25 and try to find out what it is that caused them
54:28 to have such pain that they don't want to be
54:31 who they are and now they're attempting
54:33 to become someone who they can never be
54:35 because it's categorically impossible
54:38 to surgically, biologically, change someone
54:41 from one gender to the other, it's not possible.
54:44 They are still... if they were born male...
54:48 they're still male... correct?
54:50 Thank you so much for being with us... both of you,
54:53 thank you Mike, thank you Walt,
54:55 thank you so much for sharing this information with us
54:59 and thank you so much for joining us.
55:01 This has been an amazing blessing, God bless you.
55:04 Walt: Thank you. Mike: Thank you very much.
55:06 Wooooo, was that powerful or what?
55:11 God transforms
55:13 and we can be grateful for His Holy Spirit
55:15 who gives us new and true identities in Christ.
55:19 At Dare to Dream,
55:20 we appreciate your prayers and support
55:23 and we welcome your love gifts
55:25 so please ask the Holy Spirit how much you should give
55:29 and then send your tax-deductible love gifts to:
55:35 Dare to Dream, PO Box 220, West Frankfort, IL 62896
55:40 and the phone number, if you choose to call us
55:43 is 618-627-4651
55:47 that's 618-627-4651
55:52 or go to our website at: D2DNetwork. tv
55:57 D2DNetwork. tv
56:00 we're also on Facebook
56:02 we want you to "Like" us on Facebook
56:04 and if you have ideas for programs,
56:08 send us ideas or if you have a testimony
56:11 about how Dare to Dream has impacted your life,
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56:18 or your iPad or something,
56:19 saying how Dare to Dream has impacted your life.
56:22 It's really important to us
56:24 that the programs that we are producing here
56:27 are a blessing to you.
56:29 We pray that your hearts are being turned to the Lord
56:32 because that's why we're doing this.
56:34 That's the whole purpose behind it
56:37 because we want to share Jesus with the world.
56:40 Well, thanks for joining us,
56:42 join us next time because you know what?
56:45 It just wouldn't be the same without you.


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Revised 2016-05-26