Urban Report

Saving Marriage

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Yvonne Lewis (Host), Dr. Trevor and Edith Fraser

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Series Code: UBR

Program Code: UBR000116A


00:01 Does your marriage need a tune-up?
00:02 Well, hang in there... my guests have some scriptural
00:06 insights to share with you...
00:07 My name is Yvonne Lewis and you're watching
00:10 Urban Report...
00:34 Hello and welcome to Urban Report...
00:36 My guests today are Drs. Trevor and Edith Fraser...
00:40 Co-founders and Co-directors of Christian Family Life Seminars
00:44 they are marriage counselors and authors of
00:48 "Saving Marriage by Applying Biblical Wisdom"
00:51 Welcome to Urban Report Drs. Fraser...
00:54 Thank you so much... Thank you...
00:56 Yeah.. So glad to be here...
00:58 Oh, it's so great to have you here...
01:00 you know... your book,
01:02 "Saving Marriage by Applying Biblical Wisdom"
01:07 is just... it has such profound information
01:11 in it... and I'm so thankful that you've written this book...
01:14 because we really need it... tell us what...
01:18 what prompted you to write this book?
01:20 Well we thought it was... should be a labor of love...
01:24 and it was from the background that when we first started
01:28 our pastorate in New York City in an urban environment
01:32 we realized that people were really having problems
01:36 with the rat race that often accompanies a situation like
01:42 any urban city... and we really felt that
01:45 people were just passing each other in the night... really...
01:48 Hmmm... really struggling to maintain
01:51 and manage... and it was natural for families
01:54 to feel that they have to do that... in order to survive...
01:56 in an urban environment...
01:58 And one of the things that happened also for us is
02:01 someone came to us and they said,
02:03 "Well, you have the perfect marriage"
02:05 we have been... now married for 45 years...
02:07 but it wasn't that many years then
02:10 and we laughed because, what is a perfect marriage?
02:15 so, we thought we would look at some Biblical examples...
02:20 of people who were
02:21 after God's own heart...
02:24 and see if they had "perfect marriages"
02:27 and we found, in the Bible,
02:28 They were not so perfect...
02:29 no perfect marriages... we didn't find any...
02:32 Well, because there are no perfect people, right?
02:34 Absolutely... absolutely...
02:36 And it's a work in progress... a marriage...
02:41 Yes... absolutely...
02:42 So, we felt... how do we help people see... that...
02:47 that because we all are
02:50 created as we are... we were created perfect
02:53 in the beginning... the first couple... however,
02:55 subsequently, sin... created the problem
02:58 and we now need to learn how to resolve
03:01 and to work with each other...
03:03 so... how do we work with each other as sinful creatures?
03:07 and I think we need the tools
03:11 to be able to work with each other...
03:13 because... people are different and, you know,
03:17 in the beginning... and you address this in the book
03:21 you talk about the four stages...
03:23 marriages have stages and seasons...
03:25 and you talk about those four,
03:27 of togetherness, reality, accommodation and transformation
03:31 and I thought, "Wow! that is so interesting because... "
03:35 tell us... I want you to explain that...
03:37 elaborate on those four stages for us...
03:40 and why or what happens in those four stages...
03:44 Well, the couple we used to talk about the stages
03:49 of marriage was Adam and Eve...
03:50 and when couples start off together...
03:54 they do everything together... they can't imagine being apart
03:58 but then, you know, when we do these workshops...
04:01 and we talk to people, they say, "and then reality sets in... "
04:04 and they have to go out and get a job...
04:06 and people begin to differentiate...
04:08 they begin to be focused on their jobs or their careers...
04:13 or children come in... and so they're focused on that
04:16 and so, those kinds of things impact marriages...
04:19 for example... research has shown
04:21 that marital happiness goes down at the birth of a child...
04:26 so you leave from that "togetherness stage"
04:28 to a stage where you are differentiating
04:30 and then you have to really work
04:32 on learning to accommodate each other
04:35 and recognize those differences and once you do that...
04:38 then you can really have a marriage that's transformed...
04:42 but it's not just automatic... in other words...
04:45 it's not like in the movies where people kiss
04:48 and they live happily ever after...
04:50 that's not for real...
04:51 But we really talk about reality setting in
04:54 in such a way... that bills have to be paid...
04:56 Hmmm... you have to live... some place,
04:59 you have to eat... those are some of those things
05:01 that you have to do... and those often require a lot of
05:07 work... negotiation... there may be...
05:12 as I was sharing with my class yesterday...
05:15 that there may be issues where sometimes we look at
05:17 you know, where we used to think...
05:20 we look at role changes...
05:22 we look at roles now changed...
05:24 where it may be... the woman that's bringing in
05:27 the larger salary... and how do you negotiate that
05:32 in a Society where we thought the men should bring home
05:36 that salary... or the "bacon" as we say...
05:39 but what we realize is that those things change...
05:42 so now we have to make these adjustments
05:44 and we do need to make those adjustments
05:45 in the urban context
05:47 because sometimes it changes drastically...
05:49 Absolutely... let's talk about that for a few minutes
05:53 if you would, what happens when the roles are kind of reversed
05:59 and the woman makes more money
06:01 than the man... or the husband...
06:03 the wife makes more than the husband...
06:05 how do they keep things going where he maintains
06:10 his sense of self-esteem... and she remains to...
06:15 and she remains somewhat submissive...
06:17 I know people are going to send me
06:18 e- mails or whatever about that...
06:20 but, I mean, where he continues to feel as though
06:24 he is the "Man"
06:26 of the house...
06:27 Well... number one...
06:28 suppose the woman is an Executive...
06:32 that's her job... which is why she's making lots of money...
06:35 Right... she's not the Executive at home
06:38 Oh come on now... she should be clear
06:42 on her function and role at home... and so,
06:46 the Bible, in Ephesians 5... which is where you were quoting
06:50 it talks about wives submitting but the verse before that...
06:54 we love to quote that one... Trevor and I do...
06:56 because it says that we should be
06:57 equally submissive to each other...
06:59 Mutually submissive... Yes...
07:00 so, when you get home... you can't order everyone around
07:06 including your spouse...
07:07 just because you're the Executive at work...
07:10 and that would be true for the man also... to be honest...
07:15 I mean, sometimes, men who are in the Military
07:17 or who are policemen... who are accustomed to, you know,
07:20 giving orders... they come home and they give everyone orders
07:24 and the home is a separate entity from your work...
07:27 and it's almost like when you come to that door
07:30 you need to shed some of those pieces...
07:33 so that you can work out a
07:35 collaborative relationship in the home...
07:38 and I think that's one of the ways it's done...
07:42 women come home and they realize...
07:45 "We work together at home... "
07:47 "We are all in this together"
07:48 and I think by the same token, a man has to realize
07:51 that in this new reality... that we have to then know
07:54 how to work with each other,
07:55 we need to know how to... as a matter-of-fact...
07:58 when I share with my students the fellows in the classroom,
08:01 and by-the-way... the relationship in college
08:04 classrooms is something like 60 to 40...
08:07 60 percent women... female and 40 percent male...
08:09 and the young man said to me,
08:11 "Well, I don't mind her working and making the larger salary...
08:16 I think we can work it out... "
08:17 and I'm thinking... "This is a new generation...
08:20 they're working out of different realities here... "
08:23 I think in the past... that would have been a struggle
08:25 for the man to make that shift,
08:27 I think they're making that kind of shift because
08:30 they now realize that this is more of a partnership
08:33 than anything else...
08:35 I think that's a great point... about the new reality...
08:39 because I do notice that there is a shift in
08:41 the idea of roles and that kind of thing...
08:44 I mean... a lot of times...
08:46 men are more involved in raising the baby,
08:50 nurturing the babies and all that...
08:51 and that's kind of a shift...
08:53 which is a welcome shift, I think...
08:55 but I think that's a really good point...
08:57 and I should mention that you are both...
09:00 you're both professors... at schools
09:02 and so you are... not only authors and lecturers
09:06 but you're also... professors...
09:08 at Oakwood and Alabama A and M correct?
09:11 Well, I actually recently retired so I'm actually
09:15 at home... and it's wonderful
09:16 so I do teach one course at Oakwood
09:19 and I'm no longer at A and M... but I was...
09:20 that's what's on the book... you're absolutely correct...
09:23 Yes, yes, yes, yes, and that is so good...
09:25 so you guys... kind of stay plugged in
09:28 to what's going on with our young people and
09:31 relationships... how else, have you noticed that
09:35 relationships have changed... over the years...
09:38 Well, you know, an interesting thing has happened...
09:41 we get a number of young couples who come to us
09:45 for Pre-engagement Counseling...
09:47 because we do a number of things,
09:49 we do Pre-marriage Counseling, we do counseling,
09:51 we do workshops with the seminars
09:53 but they will come to us and they'll say...
09:55 "Well, we're not sure we want to get engaged...
09:59 so before we get engaged we want pre-engagement...
10:02 and that is the new phenomenon...
10:03 That is new because they introduced it to us...
10:05 they requested it...
10:07 Ah, and so what's in that... what's involved with that?
10:09 We're taking them through a process of looking at
10:14 different roles... looking at their uniqueness...
10:18 looking at... and I say... their cultural background
10:22 and I say that... because I recognize that almost
10:26 all of us... come from a different cultural background...
10:29 So are you finding that in this, kind of, new reality...
10:32 that we're in now... young couples are more open
10:37 to receiving counseling... than in previous years
10:42 or is it about the same?
10:43 I think they realize
10:45 that it is necessary because of the complexity of the Society
10:51 they do not take it for granted
10:54 that they can maneuver
10:56 through this life... and so they actually approach us
10:59 and say, you know, "I want to know how I can
11:02 I can have some pre-engagement counseling...
11:04 and when we first started it... we had to then create
11:08 "Well, what would be different
11:10 from an engaged couple... planning... "
11:13 and we had to think about... and we have about 3 sessions
11:16 that we look at... and there are some of the things
11:18 that we look at... for example,
11:21 we want them to look at their uniqueness... who they are...
11:25 Another thing that we think is really important is
11:28 what are some of their core values...
11:30 so our premise is... you know... people say this all the time
11:33 that opposites attract... and we agree with that...
11:36 but you can't be opposite in core values...
11:39 Hmmm... that is such a good point...
11:43 that's where you're similar...
11:44 and so we get to list their core values...
11:47 and then see them together... and think about
11:49 what would be a "mission statement"
11:51 that would reflect this couple's life...
11:54 and so, those are the kinds of things that we do...
11:56 in pre-engagement... because we want them to know
12:00 "Are we really compatible?" "Is this really going to work?"
12:04 and what is interesting, Yvonne, when you've had people
12:07 who came with all intentions of moving to the next stage...
12:11 Correct... and after looking at their
12:14 differences... in terms of their core values...
12:17 and after thinking about it,
12:18 because we want them to process this
12:20 we want them to think about it,
12:21 they have changed their minds... Correct...
12:23 and we've had all those who've gone... the other direction
12:25 and say, "Well, I think, I want...
12:27 I see now... where I want to go...
12:29 in terms of the relationship. "
12:30 You know, that... to me, identifying your core values...
12:35 that is key... that is a critical piece
12:37 because if your values aren't... if you're not on the same page,
12:42 with your core values... that relationship is doomed...
12:46 Yes... You see, what we think is...
12:48 is... okay... "I'm rich... you're poor... "
12:52 that matters... "Class"
12:54 or we may think... immigration status versus
12:58 not being an immigrant which is "ethnicity"
13:01 or "race" all these factors are important
13:04 and they do have some impact,
13:06 but if you have core values that are similar...
13:10 if you believe that "family" is important...
13:13 if you believe that "working hard" is important...
13:16 or "working" period... yeah...
13:18 "honesty" is important... if you have a code of ethics
13:23 that you operate from... and they're similar...
13:27 then you're fine... we're working with...
13:29 we're just about completed pre-marital counseling
13:32 with a couple... who he's Haitian
13:35 Hmmm... hmmm... and I think she's Dominican...
13:41 Dominican... yeah... yeah... in fact... that's one of their
13:44 challenges... when they get with each other's family
13:47 that one's family speaks French and the other one... Spanish...
13:51 so... you... but you know what?
13:53 their core values... Hmmm... hmmm...
13:55 were on point...
13:56 and so, that's what people don't realize...
14:00 that's what's really important
14:01 and that's what we do... in Pre-engagement...
14:03 We worked with another family another couple...
14:06 that's... he's Hispanic... and she is Indian-American...
14:10 she has an American... Native American
14:14 I'm talking about Native American
14:15 and they had some different, different views about things
14:20 but they had come to hold
14:22 a certain core value
14:24 that they recognized as important...
14:26 for their family...
14:27 like certain things that they don't think should be done
14:32 at home... they are now... and really, they were not
14:36 they were of a different spiritual persuasion...
14:39 and they have come to bring those two...
14:43 values together... and they've talked about it...
14:46 even in our counseling sessions, I thought that's been phenomenal
14:50 we have watched them grow...
14:52 in that direction... Correct... correct... yeah...
14:54 so, that's a powerful thing that has happened...
14:57 Absolutely, absolutely... so, what kinds of issues
15:00 do couples come to you with... what are some of the
15:04 most common issues that they come with... for counseling?
15:08 Well, as you might expect... "communication"
15:14 Hmmm... hmmm... couples either have
15:17 patterns of communication that are ineffective...
15:23 or patterns of communication that could be volatile
15:28 I mean, they argue all the time,
15:29 and so, what we have to really look at is...
15:34 where do they learn these patterns and then figure out
15:38 what works and what doesn't work...
15:40 so I would think "communication" is also an issue...
15:41 Well, you also have the issue of
15:43 knowing how people have communicated
15:45 in their own home... males, for example,
15:49 sometimes will find are non-communicative
15:52 they don't communicate much period...
15:55 and then you have women who communicate...
15:59 and you can do it reverse as well...
16:02 you can see that case as well... but they are not communicating
16:06 so, their spouse or their pre...
16:09 the person that they are dealing with
16:11 in terms of planning on marrying they're trying to get
16:15 from them... certain ideas... just knowing how they think...
16:20 how they developed and what has happened...
16:23 so, they're struggling with... "How to work this out...
16:26 and how do we communicate with each other... "
16:28 and this is literally... you're talking about...
16:30 as if it's communication... there is no communication...
16:34 that's nothing that's going between them...
16:35 and so, they have to negotiate that...
16:37 they have to work that out...
16:38 And a lot of couples have no concept
16:40 of how to have a disagreement... Hmmm... hmmm...
16:44 either they don't... they say, "Oh, we never argue"
16:48 well, that may not be a plus...
16:51 they're not dealing with anything...
16:53 That's right... what are some of the
16:56 tools or strategies that you would recommend
17:00 in terms of conflict resolution,
17:02 "we're just at each other all the time... "
17:06 arguing and arguing... how would you unravel that
17:10 how would you unpack that with the couple
17:12 and show them... how to... which strategies...
17:15 what tools would they use to resolve conflict...
17:18 You know, we almost always recommend to them
17:22 "the spiritual option"
17:23 we say, first of all, you need to pray for yourself...
17:26 Ah... start that process with prayer
17:30 and we're not saying, "Pray for her... or him"
17:34 but rather... pray for yourselves...
17:36 start out... ask God to give you the insight,
17:39 the direction... as you move along in this process,
17:43 we do have a sort of process that we switched on...
17:47 we say, first of all, let's find a mutually acceptable
17:52 place and time...
17:53 And that's so important...
17:55 people often try to have discussions
17:59 when it's not a good time... someone comes in the door...
18:02 and you've been simmering all this time
18:05 because they did... whatever...
18:06 and the minute they come in the door... after a hard day...
18:08 you hit him... you hit him with it...
18:10 that's not a good time...
18:13 So, timing is everything...
18:15 We were doing a Couples Retreat somewhere
18:19 and we said, "Give the person time...
18:24 don't say it when they first come into the door...
18:27 be willing to wait... " and one young lady
18:30 who was in the audience said,
18:31 "Well, how long do we have to wait?"
18:33 I said, "You know, I'm not sure"
18:34 she said, "Because if I have to wait more than 4 hours,
18:37 I'll just die... "
18:39 and, of course,
18:41 I did check with some medical people...
18:43 and you actually can wait longer than four hours...
18:46 She was right in the audience
18:47 so she did answer this at this point...
18:49 so timing is important a good place... I mean...
18:51 I don't think it's a good idea to have a major argument
18:55 In a grocery store...
18:57 in a public forum... and we use Esther with Xerxes
19:04 as an example of a woman who knew that timing and place
19:08 was important... think about it...
19:10 when she wanted to share something with him...
19:12 she invited him to dinner... she wined and dined him...
19:17 She already set the context and the stage...
19:19 Absolutely... and so, that's why we use
19:21 these Biblical couples... and so, you have to have
19:25 timing... you have to have the right place
19:27 and then... you need to share how it feels for you
19:31 too often we share... what we think the other person
19:36 has done wrong... when it's so much better
19:38 if you share... how it makes you feel...
19:41 That is such a good point because so often
19:44 when you're involved in discussing these things...
19:49 "well you did this and you did that...
19:51 and you, you, you... " but instead... if you say what's
19:55 "When this happened... it made me feel this way... "
19:58 then you can't really invalidate that as much as you...
20:02 you know... it doesn't set the other person
20:05 on the defensive so much... because it's your experience
20:08 of what happened... Absolutely...
20:10 that is such a good point...
20:11 We categorize it as "I" messages we put it in quotes
20:15 those are "I" messages that we start out...
20:17 And we talk about speaking the truth... but in love...
20:20 the Bible talks about that... and then we suggest that couples
20:25 avoid some things like...
20:28 avoid over-generalizations like...
20:30 "You never do this... " "You always do this... "
20:33 well, of course,
20:34 as I remind the groups when we are doing our workshops...
20:38 "You remember the 99 times they didn't do it...
20:41 they can remember the one time they did... "
20:45 Right... so, of course, they can get
20:47 defensive and say,
20:48 "Well, look, I did it... you didn't even appreciate it"
20:50 so, if you avoid... and we have even found that
20:54 in our marriage that when either one of us
20:57 used that "always" And we do argue...
20:59 And we do argue... Yvonne: No, never...
21:02 Edith: Absolutely... Trevor: You have to understand
21:05 when we need to talk about... we work differently...
21:08 you know... as much as we worked on the book together...
21:12 we found that there are different times when we work...
21:15 so, that's natural...
21:16 and I think people need to understand...
21:17 that there are some natural things that happen
21:20 and we need to work out some things...
21:21 you need to understand what the other person is like...
21:23 my wife likes to go to sleep early,
21:25 and I will stay up late...
21:28 we then work... I'll say, "She's a rooster
21:31 and I'm just an owl... " I'm an owl...
21:35 and so, we need to understand that about each other...
21:38 we need to then know how we then
21:40 should work around those points
21:42 those are some of the
21:43 conflict resolution things that we share...
21:45 I love that... and I love the idea...
21:47 what you're saying...
21:50 and what I think I hear you saying is that...
21:52 you accept the person as they are...
21:56 and you make your adaptations,
21:58 each of you makes an adaption
22:00 or an accommodation, if you will,
22:03 so that you can make it work... Hmmm... hmmm...
22:07 otherwise, you can...
22:10 one of the things that you mentioned in the book is how
22:12 people just grow apart, when they're not really
22:16 spiritually intimate...
22:18 let's talk about spiritual intimacy...
22:21 because I think... that's a real important point
22:24 not enough couples, I think, are really placing God
22:27 at the center of their relationship...
22:30 let's talk a bit about "spiritual intimacy"
22:32 Why is that important?
22:34 We start our first counseling session...
22:37 when we start with counseling... in terms of...
22:39 this is after we pass the pre-engagement...
22:42 we even introduce it in pre-engagement...
22:44 but we want to start off in our first discussion
22:47 is bringing God as the center, of the marriage...
22:51 starting... if you're thinking about a relationship...
22:54 then you need to bring God at the very beginning...
22:58 because God has given us some ideas and some concepts
23:02 about... when He first established Adam and Eve
23:06 one of the things that was critical to this relationship
23:09 was that He would come down and would be with them...
23:13 He was in their midst...
23:15 He expected... as a matter-of-fact
23:17 the time when Adam and Eve were running away from Him,
23:19 God was coming to speak with them
23:23 to spend the time... and so, it is in any relationship
23:27 this need for God to be a part of
23:30 the first order, the first cause you want to start with God...
23:34 so we believe that couples should have their own
23:37 worship... we often say that, you know,
23:39 you should have individual worship...
23:41 but you also should have couple worship...
23:44 and usually when I do that... I share the fact that
23:48 on our honeymoon night... my husband said to me
23:51 that there are two things he wanted us to establish...
23:55 as foundational concepts in our relationship...
23:59 and one was that we would have worship everyday...
24:03 and I can honestly say, he has been the
24:07 priest of our household... and he assures us
24:11 that we have worship... and, of course, I'll tell you
24:14 the other foundational piece...
24:16 and the other one was that we would not go to bed angry
24:19 and I always jokingly said, we did much better with the
24:23 first one than the second... That's true...
24:27 Well, that happens... how have you guys...
24:31 you've been married for 45 years what would you say,
24:35 and I love talking to couples that have been married
24:39 for a long time... and asking them,
24:41 "What do you think
24:42 is the secret to having a successful marriage?"
24:47 Well, I think that we initiated that
24:50 when we said that God is the center...
24:52 I think that having God be the primary personality
24:57 that we want to start and to maintain this relationship
25:00 and the personality that we go to when we need...
25:04 and all the time... well, we start with that...
25:07 I mean, when we start in the morning... we have...
25:09 we get up and we do have our
25:12 morning devotions at worship... at worship...
25:14 we're not talking about anything long,
25:17 but we start with prayer...
25:19 we start that way... and then...
25:21 I think people really don't realize
25:26 that a marriage is hard work...
25:29 Hmmm... hmmm... and you have to be committed
25:31 to the process 24/7 Hmmm...
25:34 and the other thing is that we have worked... assiduously
25:37 on our marriage... one thing that I do is
25:40 I'm always reading something... I'm reading a book now
25:42 called "The Second Half" it's talking about...
25:45 after you've been married for 25 years...
25:47 that second half... and so I'm reading that
25:50 so we're always working on it...
25:51 we go to "Couples Retreats" for our marriage
25:54 at least once in a year, sometimes more...
25:57 we do have "Date Nights" where we spend time together
26:03 so, a marriage is something
26:05 that you never get to the point where you say,
26:07 "Ah, we're happily married... we don't need anything... "
26:10 no, we still have to work on our marriage
26:12 we say that it is a "work in progress"
26:14 and it gets better as you make the investment...
26:18 And if we have periods when we are too busy
26:22 that we don't talk to each other...
26:24 and I find that we get testy and there's more dissension
26:28 in the relationship... because we need that
26:31 "together time" so, we've got to carve time out
26:34 for this to work... no relationship besides
26:38 that relationship... which is "relationship with God"
26:40 is more important than this relationship...
26:42 That's right... that's right... that is beautiful...
26:45 Hold your book up for us so our audience can see
26:49 this book... this book is excellent...
26:51 How can they get it?
26:52 "Saving Marriage by Applying Biblical Wisdom"
26:54 There are a number of ways they can get it...
26:56 it's on Amazon... and I believe...
27:01 we do our workshops... and when we do our workshops,
27:06 we actually bring them and sell them...
27:09 they can contact us, we have copies...
27:12 so all of these are options... That's great...
27:15 Thank you so much for being with us...
27:17 Your book, "Saving Marriage by Applying Biblical Wisdom"
27:21 is a wonderful book... and I hope that our Viewers
27:24 will buy it... give it as a gift to a couple
27:27 that you know... it is a blessing...
27:28 thank you so much Drs. Fraser...
27:31 You're welcome... We appreciate this...
27:32 God bless you... thank you... Blessings to you...
27:34 Well, your marriage may be in trouble...
27:38 so be sure to seek God's wisdom in His Word...
27:41 Try to apply some of the strategies that you heard today
27:45 to your situation... and be of good courage...
27:48 God's got your back...
27:49 Well, that's the end of our Program for today...
27:53 Thank you so much for tuning in...
27:55 and join us next time... because you know what?
27:58 It just wouldn't be the same without you...


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Revised 2015-07-14