Participants:
Series Code: TDY
Program Code: TDY200037A
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00:01 As you're well aware,
00:02 we're living in unprecedented times. 00:05 Join us now for today's special program. 00:12 I want to spend my life 00:18 Mending broken people 00:23 I want to spend my life 00:29 Removing pain 00:34 Lord, let my words 00:39 Heal a heart that hurts 00:44 I want to spend my life 00:50 Mending broken people 00:55 I want to spend my life 01:00 Mending broken people 01:15 Hello and welcome to 3ABN Today, 01:18 we have such an exciting program 01:20 for you today. 01:22 And I'm so glad that you've taken the time 01:24 to join us, to be with us here because you are our family, 01:28 and we have a special family member here. 01:32 I am so enamored 01:36 with the ministry 01:38 that our guest represents 01:41 and is a part of and is co-founder of. 01:44 We have Pastor Ron Woolsey with us 01:46 from Coming Out Ministries. 01:49 He is a retired pastor of the Marshall 01:52 and Clinton Arkansas Seventh-day Adventist churches, 01:56 and co-founder, speaker and director 02:00 and former board chairman of Coming Out Ministries. 02:03 Welcome to 3ABN Today. 02:05 Thank you. 02:07 It's a real treat to be with you 02:08 on the set again, Yvonne. 02:10 Oh, thank you. 02:11 Yeah, we always look forward to these special opportunities. 02:13 Oh, thank you. 02:15 We're so glad to have you because you, what you bring, 02:18 and what you represent is such a powerful message. 02:22 And so, we're going to get into that, 02:24 we're going to talk about your new book. 02:26 We're going to talk about Coming Out Ministries 02:28 and all that you guys are doing. 02:30 But first we have a selection from Pastor John Lomacang. 02:34 He is going to sing for us, "There Is A River." 02:58 Be still and know that He is God 03:07 Be still and know that He is holy 03:15 Be still oh restless soul of mine 03:20 Bow before the prince of peace 03:23 Let the noise and clamor cease 03:31 Be still and know that He is God 03:38 Be still and know that He is faithful 03:47 Consider all that He has done 03:51 Stand in awe and be amazed 03:55 And know that He will never change 04:01 Be still 04:10 Be still and know that He is God 04:17 Be still and know that He is God 04:25 Be still and know 04:31 That He is God 04:33 Be still 04:38 Be speechless 04:44 Be still and know that He is God 04:52 Be still and know He is our Father 05:00 Come rest your head upon His breast 05:05 Listen to the rhythm 05:08 Of His unfailing heart of love 05:13 Beating for His little ones 05:17 Calling each of us to come 05:25 Be still 05:34 Be still 05:55 How beautiful, be still and know that He is God. 05:59 Amen. 06:01 Well, again, we have Pastor Ron Woolsey with us 06:06 from Coming Out Ministries. 06:09 And for those who don't know, 06:11 you've been on 3ABN multiple times, 06:14 with not only with Coming Out Ministries 06:17 but also with your music. 06:19 You're a concert performer. Correct. 06:21 And what a blessing you are to the family of God. 06:26 So, we thank you 06:27 and we're really, really happy that you're with us today. 06:30 Tell us a bit about your journey 06:33 and your ministry? 06:35 Well, I am a pastor, 06:37 and, but I've not always been a pastor 06:40 as you know, 06:41 I've not always been a Christian. 06:43 I've been, while I came into Christianity 06:47 into the faith 29 years ago, 06:51 but prior to that I lived many years in the gay culture. 06:56 I was labeled even by pastors and Christian counselors 07:00 as someone who could not be changed, 07:03 the statement that just sticks in my head. 07:07 In fact, my first book, it uses that as a title, 07:11 That Kind Can Never Change. 07:12 I mean, it was pastors that said that about me. 07:15 I grew up in the church 07:17 where there were no resources for the gay issue. 07:23 There was no discussion. 07:25 There was no one I felt safe talking to. 07:27 I was molested, 07:29 sexually molested when I was four years old, 07:32 repeatedly molested when I was in grade school. 07:35 And these events derailed me at a very young age. 07:40 And I struggled with this all alone, 07:41 I was not able to tell anyone what happened to me 07:44 or about any of the incidents 07:46 because I felt guilty and ashamed. 07:49 As a victim, I felt guilty 07:51 and I think that's pretty common. 07:53 Yes. That victims feel guilty. 07:55 They feel responsible, 07:57 or they're made to feel responsible. 07:58 What did I do to bring this on? 08:00 Yes, I wasn't going to tell on myself 08:03 and I didn't know how to stop the abuse 08:06 and didn't know how to say no since I was programmed 08:09 and derailed at such an early age. 08:12 So, I grew up with this confusion. 08:16 And basically, 08:18 as I look back on it now, Yvonne, 08:20 I realized I was wrestling with a devil, 08:23 who is supernatural, all my young life, 08:27 and I was wrestling alone in my humanity. 08:30 And in my fallen humanity, 08:32 even though the devil is a fallen angel, 08:34 he's still supernatural. 08:35 And my humanity was no match 08:38 for his supernatural abilities in temptation 08:41 and then allurement and deception. 08:44 I eventually just gave up and went into the gay world. 08:47 You know, Pastor Ron, 08:49 that is such a profound statement, 08:52 because I think that that's where, 08:56 for any of us who've ever had any temptations, 08:58 which is everybody. 09:00 Correct. 09:01 Because temptation isn't, you know, can be sexual, 09:03 it can be any kind of temptation. 09:07 We are not, 09:08 the Bible tells us in Ephesians, 09:10 we're not wrestling against flesh and blood. 09:12 And so, when we try to combat 09:16 these things ourselves, we are powerless. 09:19 And that's, I think that's why so many times 09:23 people feel like I just can't fix it. 09:26 I can't change. Well, on your own, you can't. 09:30 Because you're not, it's not a, 09:33 it's not just a willpower thing, 09:36 it's a stronghold. 09:37 We try to make it willpower. 09:39 Yes, yes. 09:41 And I think that's where it's so difficult 09:43 for people to have a paradigm shift. 09:47 So, I think that's such a profound point. 09:50 I think, Yvonne, so often we think 09:51 if, if I could just get a grip on this, 09:54 then maybe God can accept me. 09:55 Yes. That's backwards. 09:57 Yes. 09:59 If I could get a grip on it, I don't need a savior. 10:01 Right? Yes. Yes. 10:03 So, I went through college, Yvonne, 10:06 and graduated with honors with a degree in theology, 10:11 and did not have a clue. 10:13 And at this time, 10:14 were you practicing the gay lifestyle? 10:17 No, but, but I was wrestling with this 10:19 all of my life in my mind. 10:21 I like to say that I came up 10:25 with a brilliant solution to my struggle. 10:28 And I thought, well, if I just get married, 10:29 it'll take care of everything. 10:31 Well, I don't think I need to tell you 10:34 that marriage is not the solution 10:35 to any problem. 10:37 Marriage can be the beginning of woes I say. 10:41 If you're not married to the right person 10:43 for the right reason as a blessing of God, 10:45 and with the right chemistry. 10:46 That's right. 10:48 And I didn't have the right chemistry. 10:49 I tried in my humanity to make things work. 10:55 I was a spiritual child, a spiritual teenager, 10:58 a spiritual young person. 11:00 I chose to graduate with a degree in theology 11:04 and then premed. 11:05 I wanted to be a medical missionary. 11:07 I spent time in the mission field, 11:09 a couple of years in Korea, South Korea and Thailand. 11:12 And I loved the Lord. 11:14 I loved mission work. 11:15 I loved the church. 11:17 But I didn't have answers. Yeah. 11:19 And even with my degree in theology, 11:21 I had a lot of knowledge. 11:22 But I didn't have the answers, 11:24 because that issue was never discussed. 11:28 It was not dealt with no resources. 11:32 And so, you know, 11:34 the devil thinks he's so clever. 11:37 If he can find one issue that will stump the Christian, 11:41 then he thinks that he's won. 11:43 And I really think on the LGBT issue, 11:46 the devil thinks he's found the issue, 11:49 because even Christians today 11:51 believe that God Himself can't change the homosexual 11:56 that God made them that way and God loves them that way, 12:00 God will save them that way. 12:02 And I say, well, save them from what? 12:05 But what are they to be saved from? 12:07 But anyway, I, during my college years. 12:11 And, I know that you, you know that God loves them. 12:16 Oh, sure. That way. 12:17 Right. 12:19 But He doesn't keep them that way. 12:20 Well, I wouldn't say God loves them that way. 12:23 He loves them in spite of that way. 12:25 Yes. 12:26 He loves them where they are, 12:28 but too much to leave them there. 12:30 Yes. Right. 12:31 He loves them 12:33 and wants to bring them to a better place in life. 12:37 And so, you know, I married in college, 12:40 and that was that did not solve my problem. 12:46 You know, I chose to have a Christian wife, 12:48 a Christian home, a Christian education 12:50 to make Christian babies 12:52 and to prepare for Christian service. 12:55 And when I realized 12:57 that that did not resolve my issues, 13:00 I was so overwhelmed and so disappointed 13:04 and so surprised. 13:05 I just gave up. 13:07 And then I went into the world. 13:08 I did not use my degree in theology, 13:11 I was given a call to ministry, 13:12 but I wouldn't accept it because I knew I wasn't worthy. 13:16 I didn't have my issues resolved. 13:19 It was not right for me to be in ministry, 13:21 when I myself had so many questions 13:24 and doubts and was in bondage to sin. 13:28 So, I fell into that life, went into the world of that. 13:30 And what a terrible tug of war? 13:33 It was terrible. 13:35 It had to be? Yeah. 13:36 I think what really embittered me against God 13:40 and the church was when Christian counselors, 13:43 pastors, psychiatrists said that guy can never change. 13:48 And then I thought, well, either God is impotent. 13:52 And I thought He was omnipotent. 13:54 Or God doesn't really love me enough. 13:56 And if, and a lot of people, you know, Yvonne, think, well, 13:59 God will change us when Jesus comes. 14:02 That's when everything will be taken care of. 14:05 And then I have to say, well, if God can change me 14:08 then, why not now? 14:10 Right. 14:11 And if He can, but doesn't, it's His fault. 14:14 It's His fault. 14:16 And many gay people blame God, 14:19 they don't really blame Him, they credit Him. 14:22 God made me this way. I was born this way. 14:24 Once gay, always gay, and all of those things. 14:28 And a lot of Christians are buying into that idea that, 14:34 that, you know, someone is gay, that's how they were born. 14:38 And we should just love them and accept that behavior 14:42 because they were born that way. 14:44 There's nothing they can do about it. 14:46 And it's becomes a civil rights issue. 14:48 Right. 14:50 And I talked about that in my second book, 14:51 that one called Strait Answers to the Gay Question. 14:54 Yes. 14:55 I talk about that very thing that 14:57 and you mentioned civil rights. 14:59 The born gay concept 15:03 was born in 1985 15:06 with the gay politicians and psychologists 15:10 and wanting civil rights, they wanted equal rights, 15:13 they wanted legal minority status, 15:16 which requires that you be born that way. 15:19 That's when they decided, aha, we have to convince society. 15:23 And if we talk about it long enough, rally enough, 15:26 frequently enough, use the media, 15:28 you know, blasted everywhere. 15:30 Eventually, you know, if you tell a lie long enough, 15:34 you'll believe it yourself. 15:35 True. Right? 15:36 And now, even the church, I shouldn't say entirely. 15:41 But many people in the church have bought into that, 15:45 whenever we have events at churches 15:47 and we have a question and answer period, 15:50 we always get the question. 15:53 Well, what about those who are just born that way? 15:56 And then we have to address that all over again. 15:58 So is that any science behind being born that way? 16:03 The science. Or is it pseudoscience? 16:04 The legitimate science shows 16:07 there is no gay gene that... 16:11 And one of the studies 16:13 and we won't spend a lot of time on this, 16:15 but one of the studies 16:16 that's been going on for decades 16:18 has been that of identical twins, 16:21 where if one identical twin is gay, 16:25 they have the same DNA pattern. 16:27 If this is something genetic, 16:29 then the other one should be gay. 16:31 And they have done research on this for many decades. 16:36 And the conclusion is that the concurrence 16:40 of both twins being gay is 7.7%. 16:45 That's very, very low. 16:48 So those studies alone 16:50 have pretty much debunked that theory. 16:52 And there are many more studies about that. 16:55 Johns Hopkins recently came out with studies 16:58 that really debunked the whole born gay theory. 17:01 I think this is important to discuss 17:03 because I think there's so many people 17:05 who because they're justifying, 17:09 not moving forward with the whole idea of victory, 17:13 or looking at it as sin, 17:15 because how can you change who you are? 17:19 And so that's the whole idea of being born this way, 17:24 is a very, it's, it kind of puts you in a box. 17:30 If you, because if you're born that way, 17:32 you can't change it. 17:34 And once that box is broken down, 17:37 now, when you realize, well, that's not legitimate, 17:42 then all of a sudden, to me, 17:45 you're on your way to redemption 17:46 when you realize I was not born this way. 17:49 And if God condemns it, then He has a remedy. 17:51 Right. 17:53 God's not going to condemn something 17:54 He can't take care of. 17:55 That's right. Right? 17:57 He doesn't condemn people that are born handicapped 17:59 or deformed or whatever. 18:02 But He condemns gay behavior and many other behaviors. 18:06 Right. 18:07 In my first book, I listed all of the abominations 18:10 in the Bible, 18:11 and was quite pleasantly surprised 18:14 that homosexuality is only one of many abominations 18:19 which means it's only one of many sins, 18:22 which means it's one of those sins 18:24 that Jesus came to save us from. 18:26 Right. 18:27 And the people are not the abomination. 18:29 No. The practice. 18:31 The practice. Yeah. 18:32 And I think that also has to be discussed 18:35 because sin is sin is sin. 18:37 And so many times we have these hierarchy of sins, 18:40 you know, hierarchies of sins, and this is worse than this 18:44 and this is worse than, sin is sin. 18:47 And yes, we, you know, I'm sure that if you kill her... 18:51 You know, which sin is worse. 18:53 It's yours. 18:56 Right? That's right. 18:58 Your sin is worse than mine. 18:59 That's why we're so prone 19:01 to pointing out someone else's sin 19:02 'cause it makes us feel better... 19:04 About ourselves. About our own addiction. 19:06 Absolutely. Absolutely. 19:07 You know, I came into the faith 29 years ago 19:10 studying my way out with the Bible, 19:14 and the Spirit of Prophecy, that was it. 19:16 No counseling, no therapy. 19:18 And in Coming Out Ministries, 19:20 we do not believe in conversion therapy, 19:23 we believe in conversion of the heart. 19:26 That's the answer. 19:28 And I found all of those answers in the Word of God 19:30 to where I could turn and walk away 19:32 and I'm really simplifying it. 19:35 It was a very difficult process. 19:37 But it was one that was doable, 19:39 because I was no longer doing it on my own. 19:42 Right. 19:43 I connected with divine omnipotent transforming power, 19:47 which is called grace. 19:50 And by becoming, 19:52 we become partakers of divine nature 19:55 through the exceeding great and precious promises of God. 19:58 And so, I really started collecting promises. 20:01 I have an article called the rainbow, 20:04 a rainbow of promises. 20:06 And you read through four and five pages 20:08 of this one verse, two verse promises 20:11 and oh, it's invigorating. 20:13 It's very strengthening. 20:15 That's so beautiful. 20:16 You know what you said earlier about God being omnipotent. 20:21 That is so important too, because if God can't fix it, 20:26 then He is not omnipotent. 20:28 Maybe call it impotent. 20:29 He would be an impotent God, if He can't fix it. 20:32 And He is omnipotent. So He can fix anything. 20:34 Christians who refer to God as omnipotent, need not say, 20:40 once gay, always gay. 20:42 That statement is a contradiction 20:45 to your faith. 20:47 If you believe in an omnipotent God, 20:50 then you cannot say once gay, always gay, 20:53 because that's putting it back on God. 20:55 And you know, I came back into the faith 29 years ago, 20:58 a year later, I was married. 21:01 You've met my wife, Claudia, we've been on the set together. 21:04 We have two children together, but five all together. 21:09 And the Lord is really blessed. 21:11 But it was 10 years ago, 21:12 you wanted to know about our ministry, 21:13 10 years ago, 21:15 someone that was acquainted with me and others 21:19 that were talking about this issue individually. 21:23 I was ministering and traveling in many places 21:25 around the world with my story and what have you, 21:28 but this one person said, You know, I know this one 21:32 and that one, I know several people. 21:34 Why don't we all get together 21:35 and see if we can work together. 21:37 So I was speaking at a concert, speaking at a camp meeting, 21:42 SoCal camp meeting in California, 21:44 and I was doing music there with my marimba. 21:47 And we all met at that camp meeting. 21:49 And by the end of the camp meeting, 21:51 Coming Out Ministries was formed. 21:53 That was 10 years ago. 21:55 So there were five of us 21:56 that had been working individually. 21:59 We had the same stories, similar stories. 22:02 We had the same solution. 22:05 We had the same theology. 22:07 And now we're in the same ministry. 22:09 So, and Michael Carducci and I, you know, 22:12 you know him very well. 22:13 Oh, I love Mike. 22:15 Are the two that are remaining as cofounders. 22:19 Your ministry, to me is when I first met you guys, 22:24 I was just so impressed by the fact 22:26 that A, you would stand against the tide, 22:29 because a popular culture 22:32 is coming up so hard against you. 22:36 And yet you would stand up and say, hey, there is victory. 22:41 And you don't, you don't treat it 22:43 as you know, you're not condemning. 22:46 You know, because you've been there. 22:47 You've been through the process, 22:49 which is another word that you used earlier today, 22:52 which is so important to know that this is a process. 22:55 Coming out is a process. 22:57 It's not necessarily instantaneous, 22:59 but it is a process that God brings you through 23:02 if you connect, 23:03 which is another thing that you said, 23:05 connect with Him through His omnipotence. 23:10 So, Coming Out Ministries is just if, 23:13 if you haven't heard of 23:15 or investigated Coming Out Ministries 23:18 or if you have a loved one who is in the gay culture, 23:22 who needs to know more about Coming Out, 23:26 please look at their website 23:28 and we're gonna have some address information 23:30 for you later. 23:32 But it is so important. 23:33 It is such a beautiful ministry and I love all you guys. 23:37 I mean, I just, I just think that God has selected you 23:42 for such a time as this. 23:43 So speaking of for such a time as this, 23:46 you have written a book, 23:48 tell us about Navigating the Storms. 23:52 Well, you know, experiences in life, 23:56 lend themselves to being object lessons. 24:01 And so, the book is based upon an experience in life, 24:05 but I probably should start 24:10 first by saying the need for this book. 24:14 We know that the whole world is becoming polarized. 24:18 Yes. It's polarized. 24:20 It's very polarized. Yeah. 24:22 Jesus said in Luke Chapter 17, 24:25 as it was in the days of Noah 24:27 and as it was in the days of Lot, 24:29 this is the way the world is going to be 24:30 just before the coming of Jesus. 24:32 And if you study what the world was like 24:35 in the days of Noah, and the days of Lot, Yvonne, 24:39 we're here, we are there. 24:42 And you look at the political world, 24:44 the polarization is just incredible. 24:48 One side cannot speak to the other. 24:50 I mean, it's like they are locked in. 24:54 And the conflict is just amazing. 24:58 The same way in the social world, 24:59 in the education community, in the media, 25:03 in the Christian world, 25:04 this polarization is taking place. 25:07 And Satan is really taking advantage of this. 25:12 He is using methods to try to get the church 25:16 to change its position about sin. 25:22 So, Satan wants the Christian world 25:25 to believe in salvation in sin. 25:28 But Jesus came to save His people 25:30 from their sins. 25:32 And I think one of the ways 25:34 He's really getting His point across 25:36 is through the LGBT issue. 25:39 Because it is a very prominent issue, 25:42 it's a very difficult issue. 25:45 People believe that once gay, always gay, 25:48 and so 25:50 there are many gay Christians. 25:54 I mean, that's the way they label themselves. 25:58 To me, that's an oxymoron 25:59 because gay comes before a Christian, 26:02 which means gay is more prominent. 26:05 I'm a Christian, except I'm gay. 26:08 It's not total surrender, it's not total submission. 26:12 And so, within the Christian world, 26:16 there are now major efforts 26:19 to get the church 26:21 to change its position on this issue. 26:24 But in essence in changing its position on the gay issue, 26:27 which is a sin issue, 26:29 then it's changing its position on the sin issue altogether. 26:33 And the church is divided. 26:36 We can say liberal, conservative, 26:37 whatever you want to call it, 26:39 but you have one, one ideology 26:43 that we must interpret Scripture 26:45 based upon today's culture. 26:48 Well, culture is ever changing. 26:50 And if we interpret Scripture based upon today's culture, 26:53 then what is our rule of faith in practice? 26:56 Culture. That's right. 26:58 But the Christian should really be evaluating today's culture 27:01 through the lens of Scripture, 27:03 you see how opposite these approaches are, 27:06 and they don't seem to be able to, 27:09 to relate or dialog its warfare. 27:13 We're in the great controversy between Christ and Satan. 27:17 So, with this issue, 27:20 there is quite an effort throughout the Christian world 27:23 to get the church to change its position. 27:27 They call it posture shift. 27:30 And my wife and I went to a seminar in Florida 27:33 a few months ago 27:35 with the author of this posture shift. 27:37 And I always want to say Jim Hinson, 27:39 but he's the muppet. 27:41 He's the muppet guy. 27:42 I think it's Bill Hinson, I think is the author 27:45 and really promoter of this and he is interfaced, 27:50 nondenominational or whatever. 27:52 But we went to this 27:54 and it was very interesting to see his approach 27:58 is to get the church to change its position 28:00 to be more accommodating. 28:03 But if we're biblical, we need to get the sinner 28:06 to go through a change of heart, 28:07 not the church to go through a change of position. 28:10 You see, it's an opposite approach. 28:13 Well, this sounds good 28:15 because it's all about love and acceptance 28:18 and dialogue and conversation. 28:21 And then I have to ask, 28:22 well, but what is the goal of all of this? 28:26 That's not the gospel. 28:29 It's a cheap gospel and cheap... 28:31 It's cheap grace. Yeah, cheap grace. 28:33 So, this is permeating all throughout Christianity, 28:38 including our own denomination. 28:40 And so, there was the need to counteract this 28:45 or to address it. 28:48 Literature is being sent out. 28:50 I mean, like broadcast, 28:52 I mean, it's going throughout all the denomination 28:57 that is promoting this idea of posture shift 29:01 and more embracing the gay agenda 29:03 and embracing the gay community 29:06 without showing them the need of their savior from sin. 29:11 So, I have been contacted by people 29:14 from every level of our denomination 29:17 when some of this literature was being distributed broadly. 29:21 And they were alarmed and they're saying, 29:24 what do you think about it 29:25 because it was addressing the gay issue 29:27 and our ministry addresses that, 29:30 they wanted us to critique it, 29:31 they wanted us to respond to it. 29:33 We've been on panel discussions, 29:36 discussing these issues. 29:38 And finally, it was suggested 29:40 that we come up with our own resource 29:43 that would be biblical. 29:45 And you notice on the top of the book, 29:49 I have the little caption here, guided by the Word of God. 29:52 Yes. 29:54 True science and research 29:56 and the voice of experience and reason. 30:00 That's one of my favorite texts, Yvonne, 30:02 is in Isaiah 1 where God says, 30:04 "Come now, let us reason together." 30:07 I love that because God is saying, 30:10 well, let's talk about it. 30:12 I'll listen to your point of view, 30:13 will you listen to mine? 30:15 Yeah. 30:16 I think He wants to be included in the discussion. 30:18 And I'm pretty sure 30:20 He'd like to have the last word. 30:21 You think? 30:23 And so, our material with Coming Out Ministries 30:27 is biblical. 30:28 It is scientific, 30:31 and it is based upon experience. 30:33 We've all been there. 30:35 And we love to reason with God. 30:38 And so that's the format. 30:41 And what I love, 30:42 one of the things I love about you guys 30:44 is that you have a relationship with God. 30:48 You've been through, you know, we've all had our journeys, 30:52 and you have been through this specific area 30:56 that gives you credibility. 30:59 It's not like, you know, I can't, 31:02 you can't, I can't talk about the white experience, 31:04 you can't talk about the black experience 31:06 because I'm black, you're white. 31:07 Well, I can talk about it. 31:09 Well, you know what I'm saying, 31:10 but from a place of having experienced it. 31:12 Right, right. 31:14 You know, we have that, 31:15 we have our own lens through which we look at life. 31:19 And so, what the other, the other people 31:25 that have written other literature, 31:27 they're trying to change the lens 31:30 so that you're looking at sin and calling it something else, 31:34 calling it, you know what it's not. 31:37 Sin is sin. 31:39 And so, what you guys do is say, hey, there is victory. 31:43 There is victory through the Word of God, 31:46 through you can debunk some of this stuff 31:49 through true science, not pseudoscience, 31:52 but true science and research 31:54 and the voice of experience and reason. 31:56 And I think that is just excellent. 31:58 And the way the book is set up is just I love it. 32:02 What made you use this metaphor of navigating the storm? 32:05 Okay, let me just say one thing before I go. 32:07 Yeah, yeah, sure. 32:09 Revelation 12:11, we overcome by the blood of the Lamb 32:12 and the word of our testimony. 32:14 No one can really legitimately argue with your experience. 32:18 But I have had people come to me and say, 32:21 "Well, if you're married and you have children, 32:23 you never were really gay in the first place." 32:26 I say, "So you think that I pretended to be gay 32:29 for all those years?" 32:32 Who's going to pretend 32:34 if you're going through that culture 32:36 and you're living that life 32:38 and have nothing to do with the same gender intimately 32:42 for all those years? 32:44 Isn't that a pretty good indication 32:45 that it was genuine? 32:48 But, the, navigating the storms, 32:52 I, when I was a young college student, 32:56 I got interested in flying and my high school roommate 33:01 who didn't even have a driver's license 33:03 to drive a car 33:04 went through and got his pilot's license 33:07 and then his instrument rating and then his instructors rating 33:10 and all of that. 33:11 And now we're in college. 33:13 And I thought, I want to learn to fly. 33:16 I was a little nervous 33:17 because I'm thinking if he can't drive a car, 33:19 can he really fly a plane? 33:21 Did you want to fly with him 33:23 because he couldn't drive a car? 33:24 But he was a good instructor. 33:27 And so, I took flying lessons from him and it came, 33:31 you know, I did my solo flight and survived. 33:35 And then it came time for me to do my solo cross country, 33:39 which was from Collegedale 33:41 near Chattanooga to Huntsville, Alabama, 33:43 to Nashville, Tennessee, and back to Collegedale. 33:46 The plane wouldn't crank that I was to fly, 33:49 he had to prop it, if you know what that means. 33:51 He had to spin the prop to start it. 33:54 And he said when you get to Huntsville, 33:55 they're going to change out the battery 33:57 and then then you'll be able to start it from then on. 34:00 And... 34:01 Were you flying solo? 34:02 I was flying solo. Oh. 34:04 And I'm thinking, do I really want to do this? 34:07 Well, I did and I got to Huntsville, 34:10 they changed out the battery 34:12 and I went to crank it and it wouldn't crank again. 34:14 It wasn't the battery. 34:16 They had to prop it in Huntsville. 34:18 Well, I'm on my solo flight, so I need to keep going. 34:21 So, they propped it and I took off 34:23 and between Huntsville and Nashville, 34:25 I got caught in a storm like this. 34:28 A lightning thunderstorm and I panicked 34:32 and there are no windshield wipers 34:33 on the windshield 34:34 and I couldn't see 34:36 but I, you know, I was flying visual. 34:39 And, but then I thought I've got, 34:43 I've got to get out of here. 34:44 And I looked around and I saw an area to the south. 34:48 That was, was light, an area of light 34:52 and I just turned my plane and flew to the light. 34:55 You can see object lessons in all of this. 34:56 I can. 34:57 So, I flew to the light and I got out of this storm. 35:01 Well, now I'm way off course. 35:03 But with a map in one hand and my eyes on the ground, 35:07 I finally figured out where I was. 35:11 And I reoriented and I corrected 35:16 and recharted my course towards Nashville 35:20 and I landed there safely. 35:23 Again, the plane wouldn't crank 35:25 and I had to get it propped to fly back to Collegedale, 35:29 but there, I tell that story with much more detail 35:33 and interest in the book. 35:35 That's how it starts out. 35:37 And then I go from there to make application. 35:41 Because the application 35:46 of your journey through life, 35:50 and especially today we have these, 35:52 the world is turned upside down in chaos and confusion 35:56 with the storms of contemporary sexuality, 35:59 gender identity, and the issue of love. 36:02 Everything is upside down and backwards. 36:05 And so, I use that analogy 36:08 and go through how to navigate 36:11 these storms successfully. 36:15 And so that's basically how the book starts out. 36:19 And then I make applications all the way through. 36:22 Yes. 36:23 Tell us what you want the reader 36:26 to get from this book? 36:29 First of all, I want him to understand 36:32 that none of us can navigate the storms of life 36:36 or sexuality without training, 36:42 without a guide. 36:43 And so, I talked 36:45 about how we need to trust our instructor. 36:48 Find an instructor we can really trust 36:51 and Jesus who was willing to die for us, 36:54 I think we can trust Him. 36:56 I think so. Right, as an instructor. 36:58 We need to trust our training 37:02 and follow our training and know our limitations. 37:06 We need to be able to chart our course. 37:11 Life will just throw us in every which direction, 37:14 toss us to and fro. 37:15 We need to chart our course, 37:17 we need to use reliable equipment. 37:19 We need to. 37:21 If we're thrown off course, 37:24 we need to know how to get back on course. 37:26 You know, the gay community talks about orientation 37:30 as something that is fixed, that cannot be altered. 37:33 The word orientation in the dictionary 37:37 is defined as a direction of choice. 37:40 And if that's not good enough, 37:42 then use the word reorientation. 37:45 And so, we go through all of these steps 37:48 about how to navigate through these storms 37:51 and come out safely at the other end. 37:54 That sounds so good, you know, 37:56 and from what I could see of the book, 37:58 it is just, it's so very well laid out 38:00 and put together. 38:03 What were some of the challenges 38:04 that you faced when writing the book? 38:07 If any? 38:09 Oh, writer's block. Really. 38:11 Distractions. 38:13 You know, when I wrote my first book, 38:15 I was given four weeks, 38:16 I was given a four-week deadline. 38:19 If I could do, get a manuscript on the desk, 38:21 on this particular date, 38:23 four weeks later, they had a slot 38:25 that they could publish it three years after that. 38:29 And so, for 14 hours a day, 38:31 all I did was work on that book. 38:34 And it's a much bigger book than this, 38:36 but I got it on the desk on the deadline. 38:38 In four weeks? In four weeks. 38:41 This book, I started it probably 38:45 maybe even a year before I was able to get it done. 38:49 Because our full-time ministry, we're traveling, 38:52 and we're doing all kinds of, 38:55 they're just all kinds of obligations 38:57 and I became the treasurer of the ministry. 39:01 Oh, I don't, I don't wish that on anybody. 39:06 And, you know, I almost pulling my hair out 39:10 trying to, to be on top of things. 39:13 And so, I had all these constant distractions. 39:16 And there was, see there was no deadline, 39:20 without a deadline, without a definite date, 39:23 I kept putting it aside. 39:25 When finally we came up with a deadline 39:27 and I cranked it out. 39:30 And when you, when you're writing a book, 39:32 if you just stay focused, then it'll flow. 39:34 But if you get going to, in too many directions, 39:38 then the book's not going to flow very well. 39:40 Yes. 39:42 But I would like to say that, that this book was, 39:45 in essence, it was requested, 39:47 people throughout our denomination were saying 39:51 we need something biblical, 39:52 we need something that's Adventist, 39:55 that reflects Adventist theology 39:57 instead of non-Adventist theology. 40:00 We don't want an Adventist edition 40:03 of a non-Adventist book. 40:05 We want an Adventist edition of Adventist theology. 40:09 And so... Which is biblical theology. 40:10 Right. 40:12 When I say Adventist, of course, 40:13 I'm thinking biblical 40:15 because if Adventism wasn't biblical, 40:16 I'd be something else. 40:18 Right. Exactly. 40:20 So, this book was written in mind 40:23 for the pastors that were asking for it, 40:26 teachers, many families and friends of gay people 40:30 are very frustrated 40:32 because they have all of these conflicting ideologies 40:35 and voices out there. 40:37 And it was designed to be a biblical, 40:41 well, I can say on top, a biblical, scientific, 40:43 experiential, reasonable guide to help people 40:48 navigate through this storm 40:50 of contemporary sexuality, so. 40:55 What audiences are you really trying to reach? 40:59 It's not really just for Adventist 41:02 because I want to make sure that our viewers know that. 41:05 If you are that Adventist, that's great. 41:08 But if you're a Christian, 41:10 this is, this is really, really an important book 41:13 and for the non-Christian as well. 41:15 Correct. 41:16 Well, we have the position that I mean, 41:19 many people want to know 41:21 how do I fix my son or fix my husband, 41:24 or my brother or my daughter. 41:26 Well, we don't address the gay issue right up front. 41:31 Jesus said, seek ye first the kingdom of God 41:34 and His righteousness, 41:36 and all these things shall be added unto you. 41:38 So we advise people, help this person see Jesus, 41:43 learn of Jesus, know Jesus, 41:46 develop a relationship with Jesus, 41:48 the Holy Spirit will lead them in a path 41:51 and the gay issue may come up way down the list. 41:55 And so, yeah, this book is written for well... 41:59 They need to show people 42:00 that Jesus is the instructor we can trust, 42:05 His Word is reliable. 42:08 And so, it's to lead people to Christ first, 42:13 and then applying His methods to the sin issue, 42:18 the gay issue or any other issue, 42:21 and it works and that's what I did in my life, Yvonne, 42:24 I, when I came to acknowledge, according to Jeremiah 3, 42:28 that homosexuality was a sin issue. 42:31 And I've been using all of these excuses 42:33 all my life, born this way, 42:35 once gay, always gay, it's acceptable and all that. 42:38 But facing the Word of God, I had to acknowledge. 42:41 No, this is a sin issue. 42:43 And then God says, only acknowledge your iniquity, 42:46 Jeremiah 3, and I will heal your backsliding. 42:50 He came to save us from sin, not an acceptable lifestyle, 42:55 or not from, from the sin issue. 42:59 And so, and accepting that it was a sin issue, 43:04 I simply then applied God's remedy for sin. 43:08 And so, though this is talking a lot 43:10 about contemporary sexuality, identity and love, 43:14 in essence it's talking about sin. 43:16 Navigating the storms of temptation. 43:20 Satan may hit you with a crosswind, headwind, 43:22 tailwind, violent storm of temptation, whatever. 43:26 You can navigate through all of those storms 43:29 that you might be facing 43:31 if you follow the same simple pattern, 43:34 the remedy for sin. 43:35 God has one program for all sin issues. 43:39 He doesn't have one program for the gay issue, 43:42 another program for the alcoholic issue, 43:45 another program for the lying and pride issues. 43:49 It's one program for the sin issue. 43:52 So this book is really about overcoming sin. 43:57 And that is so key because and that's one of the things 44:01 I love about Coming Out Ministries 44:03 is that, yes, you, 44:06 many of you have come out of that the gay culture, 44:09 but there are also other sins 44:13 that people are trying to deal with. 44:14 And so, you look at it from a broad perspective, 44:17 from the perspective of sin, whether it's LBGTQ, 44:21 whether it's pornography, whether it's sexual sin, 44:25 whether it's alcoholism, addiction, whatever, lust, 44:29 whatever it is, sin, there's victory for sin. 44:35 But as you mentioned, in Jeremiah 3, 44:37 you have to acknowledge that it's sin. 44:40 And I think that's a big thing. 44:42 Nowadays, it's like, if you call it a sin, 44:45 people are insulted. 44:47 It's like you can't say it's sin. 44:49 And that's the difficulty we face today. 44:52 You can't, you cannot speak the truth 44:55 without being called a hate monger. 44:58 Yes, a homophobic or... 45:00 Yes. Yeah. 45:01 So rather than reason together, when you, 45:05 if you have a difference of opinion, 45:07 and it takes two to have a difference of opinion. 45:10 So why is one hate and the other not? 45:13 And why is one that is so hateful, 45:16 talking about love, 45:18 rather than one that is so loving 45:19 is called hate. 45:21 See, the Bible even talks about this, 45:23 how things will be upside down. 45:25 Good will be called evil, 45:27 the just will become unjust and so forth. 45:32 It's really a sad state of affairs. 45:35 And I think it really tells you 45:37 where we are in the overall scheme of things 45:39 that you cannot even reason with so many people. 45:44 If you have a difference of opinion, 45:46 there's no discussion but I'll tell you, 45:50 when we convince people 45:52 that this is a sin issue according to the Word of God, 45:55 you ought to see the lights come on. 45:58 When they realize 45:59 that they're dealing with a sin issue. 46:02 It may sound ironic, 46:04 but when they realize it's a sin issue, 46:06 all of a sudden, they realize there's hope. 46:08 Yes. 46:09 Because Jesus came to save them from sin. 46:11 Yes. 46:12 And if they're not acknowledging 46:14 that it is a sin issue, there's no hope. 46:17 They're stuck. You're stuck. 46:18 Right, right. 46:20 Oh, that's, that's so beautiful, really, 46:22 that the bondage can be broken. 46:26 You have also a pamphlet 46:29 that has been written 46:31 with some, some principles in it. 46:34 Tell us about that? 46:36 Well, I wrote a pamphlet. 46:40 It's similar to, well, it's called Turbulence Ahead. 46:45 Okay. 46:46 So using the same navigation? 46:47 And it's really thoughts and concerns 46:49 about some of these principles 46:50 for we talked about the posture shift principle. 46:56 But the things that are being promoted now 46:58 throughout theology in the Christian world 47:01 are the posture shift, 47:03 another idea is to learn to love 47:05 and nurture our gay young people. 47:08 But then I have to add, see, 47:10 I'm very simplistic in my thinking. 47:13 And I like to be logical. 47:14 And I think if I weren't a pastor, 47:16 I probably would have taken up law 47:17 because I like to be, 47:20 I like the sequence of logical steps. 47:24 But when somebody says, 47:25 "We need to love and nurture our gay young people." 47:29 Then I say, "Well, what kind of love." 47:31 Right. 47:32 We can love them down the Broadway 47:33 to destruction. 47:36 That's the easy way or we can love them 47:38 into and up the narrow way to eternal life. 47:42 So, when we talk about loving them, 47:45 we have to determine 47:47 what kind of love as a Christian. 47:50 Another statement that is made 47:52 is that it's not our responsibility 47:54 to try to change a gay person's orientation 47:57 or identity. 47:59 Well, everyone coming to Christ has to change orientation. 48:04 That's what conversion means. 48:06 Yes. Right? 48:07 If I'm converted, I'm being changed. 48:11 So why is it that the gay Christian 48:15 cannot be converted, 48:18 but every other Christian must be converted? 48:21 See, again, it's logic that I'm looking at. 48:25 I want to address when these statements are made, 48:30 I have to see that it's consistent 48:31 and that is logical. 48:33 Even if I weren't looking at the Word of God, 48:35 I'm looking for the logic 48:37 because God wants us to be reasonable. 48:39 Right. 48:40 Another statement is that God loves them unconditionally. 48:44 God loves everybody. 48:46 I mean, He loves the lost. 48:48 Jesus died for us 48:49 while we were yet sinners and enemies. 48:52 So that's, that's almost like a duh statement 48:56 that God loves him and you want to go duh. 49:00 Yes, but God loves the lost. 49:05 Right. And He came to save them. 49:07 And I don't mean to be flippant about it, 49:08 but, you know, we need to be real here. 49:12 Yes. 49:13 Do you think it's important, it's so important to, 49:16 to go past the emotion 49:18 because there's so much emotion tied up into it. 49:22 But to look at it logically, 49:24 I think that's really, really important. 49:26 What are some of the others? 49:27 A couple more real quick before we run out of time. 49:30 Gay Christians may be deeply religious. 49:34 And immediately my mind said, pagans are deeply religious. 49:40 I mean, you have radical Islamic terrorists 49:43 that are deeply religious. 49:45 That's not enough, Yvonne. 49:47 Deeply religious is not enough. 49:49 Jesus said, not everyone that says unto me, Lord, Lord, 49:52 now shall enter the kingdom of heaven. 49:53 That's right. Who calls Him Lord? 49:55 Christians. 49:57 Jesus saying not even every Christian, much less, 49:59 everyone who's religious. 50:01 See, that's not enough. 50:02 People can choose their behaviors 50:03 but not their identity. 50:06 Well, why do I identify with Satan's plan for my life 50:11 instead of identifying with God's plan for my life? 50:14 Temptation reveals Satan's plan for my life. 50:17 And Jesus was tempted in all points 50:19 like as we are yet without sin. 50:22 He did not choose His temptations, 50:24 but He certainly chose His identity, 50:27 that He was a son of God. 50:29 And we can do the same as sons and daughters of God. 50:34 The last one here is we believe 50:35 that sharing God's love and acceptance 50:37 is a necessary condition of being faithful to the Bible. 50:41 And I would just say love and acceptance 50:43 is a very dangerous doctrine. 50:46 How's so, 'cause it sound so loving and accepting. 50:50 Every religion can preach love and acceptance. 50:54 And the whole world can be united under one leader 50:57 under a doctrine of love and acceptance. 51:00 But all scripture is given by inspiration of God 51:03 and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, 51:06 instruction, all of those things. 51:08 There's much more than love and acceptance. 51:10 Yes. 51:11 There's surrender, there's discipleship, 51:12 there's transformation of character. 51:15 Yes. 51:17 That is all needed through the power of God. 51:18 Yes. 51:19 And I know that people are going to want 51:21 to reach you to contact you, 51:23 Coming Out Ministries, they want to get your book. 51:26 Let's go to an address roll in just a moment. 51:29 We're going to find out just how they can reach you, 51:33 how they can get the book. 51:34 And the booklet, this pamphlet is free, 51:37 isn't it? 51:38 Yes, it's free. It's free. 51:39 We would love for this to be free 51:41 but we don't have the resources. 51:42 Absolutely. 51:44 But we do have it very priced very, very low. 51:46 Great. Great. 51:47 So, let's check it out and see how we can get it. 51:52 For more information about Coming Out Ministries 51:54 or to support their efforts, 51:56 please contact them by going to their website 51:58 at ComingOutMinistries.org. 52:00 That's ComingOutMinistries.org. 52:04 You may also call them at 870-504-0173. 52:09 That's 870-504-0173. 52:14 Their mailing address is PO Box 107, 52:17 Tilly, Arkansas 72679. 52:21 That's PO Box 107, Tilly, Arkansas 72679. |
Revised 2020-09-18