Participants:
Series Code: TDY
Program Code: TDY190025A
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00:01 I want to spend my life
00:07 Mending broken people 00:12 I want to spend my life 00:19 Removing pain 00:24 Lord, let my words 00:30 Heal a heart that hurts 00:34 I want to spend my life 00:40 Mending broken people 00:46 I want to spend my life 00:51 Mending broken people 01:11 Hello and welcome to 3ABN Today, 01:13 my name is John Lomacang, 01:14 but if you're part of our family, 01:16 you know that. 01:17 Thank you for taking the time today 01:19 to tune into a very exciting and informative program. 01:22 And I wanna thank you for your prayers 01:24 and your financial support of this network, 01:27 as we continue going and growing, 01:29 getting ready for the soon return of Jesus. 01:31 You know, everyone is on a journey. 01:33 You're sitting down right now, 01:34 may be standing up, 01:35 you may be with your family or by yourself, 01:37 you may be listening in your car 01:39 or watching in a church 01:41 but today it's about journeys. 01:43 Everyone has a journey. 01:45 We have a beginning point 01:46 and then we come later in life to understand 01:49 where the Lord always knew that we would be. 01:51 Today our guest is going to talk 01:53 about his journey, 01:54 his spiritual journey, his psychological journey, 01:57 his journey of adjusting from where he was 01:59 to where he is. 02:01 Not only himself but his family 02:03 and if you're on a journey, 02:04 maybe a spiritual one 02:05 wondering where the Lord is guiding you, 02:07 I really encourage you 02:09 to stay tuned for this exciting and informative program. 02:12 Not only informative, but I also believe 02:14 it's going to be transformative. 02:16 But before we get to our... introducing our guest, 02:19 Sam Ocampo is going to play a wonderful piano piece 02:23 entitled, "What A Precious Friend." 05:30 Thank you, Sam, for that wonderful rendition 05:33 of "What A Precious Friend Is He." 05:36 I think it's a very good note 05:37 to segue to introduce our guest for today, 05:40 Dr. Robert Nohr, 05:43 family ministry coordinator 05:45 of the Milwaukee Seventh-day Adventist Church. 05:47 So good to have you here today. 05:48 Thank you, Pastor John. It's great to be here. 05:50 Yes. I am particularly excited about our interview today 05:53 because of what we talked about prior to coming on the set, 05:57 but we have people that are watching the program 05:59 and that are listening to the program, 06:01 and they might say, "I don't know Dr. Robert Nohr." 06:03 So give us kind of a summary, 06:05 a nutshell of who you are and what you do right now? 06:07 So I'm a clinical psychologist 06:09 in Milwaukee in private practice. 06:12 I'm also with my wife, Dee Piekarek, 06:15 co family ministry coordinator 06:16 at Milwaukee Central Seventh-day Adventist Church. 06:19 Okay. And your medical background. 06:22 Give us an... Give us a... You're a clinical psychologist. 06:26 Right. So I have a PhD in clinical psychology. 06:28 Okay. 06:29 So you're not just a... 06:32 I'm sitting here, like a launch pad, fighter jet, 06:37 because I know that we're going to catapult 06:39 into a very interesting journey that you've experienced. 06:42 And give us a little bit about your background. 06:45 You just summarized what you do 06:48 and the church you're working with, 06:50 but kind of walk us through your journey 06:51 because your journey is very interesting. 06:54 Not totally unique 06:55 because other people have had journeys, 06:57 but each one of us 06:59 has a fingerprint 07:00 in our journey that no one else can share, 07:01 talk about that. 07:03 Right. 07:04 So I was raised in a suburb outside of Milwaukee, 07:07 in a Catholic family, 07:09 attended a Catholic grade school. 07:12 And my mom was a praying mom. 07:14 And they wanted us to know the Lord Jesus 07:17 and sent us to the Catholic school. 07:20 And so I, you know, 07:22 it was an important part of my childhood experience. 07:25 I was always the kind of kid 07:27 who was taking faith seriously, very interested in that. 07:31 And so, of course, you know, in a Catholic family, 07:34 if you're highly interested, young man in faith, 07:39 the path of the priesthood 07:40 is something that comes up for consideration. 07:43 And that was the path that I chose. 07:45 So from... 07:46 At what age did you think that that's what I want to do? 07:49 Well, I thought about it even in grade school, 07:53 going into ministry, 07:54 and I think it was somewhat solidified. 07:57 My family went through a rough time 07:59 that ended in my parent's divorce, 08:01 when I was about 13. 08:03 And there certainly were community members, 08:05 teachers there at the school 08:06 that were really supportive of me at that time 08:09 and having to rely on my faith in some ways 08:13 that maybe some other kids didn't. 08:16 And so it just sort of crystallized 08:18 that, "Hey, I really need the Lord in my life." 08:21 And this seems to be the way to do that. 08:24 So having this aspiration 08:26 that at a critical juncture in your life, 08:29 you know, anytime we experienced 08:31 anything as traumatic 08:32 and 13 years old, 08:34 you have to choose almost emotionally 08:36 which parent you want to stay with. 08:39 But then again, you're caught in the middle, 08:40 any way you look at it. 08:42 And then when your faith community steps in, 08:44 it gives you a foundation. 08:45 And I'm assuming then at that time, 08:47 your faith community, being the Catholic community, 08:49 just really embraced you, 08:50 the priest and everybody just was there 08:52 to help you through a tough time. 08:54 That's right. 08:55 You know, there were teachers, 08:56 there were friends of mine, the parents of my friends 09:00 at that age that took an extra interest in me 09:03 and, you know, gave me some spiritual encouragement 09:07 and wanted to be sure I had what I needed 09:09 as I was going through 09:11 some difficult things in the family time. 09:12 And I think that's somewhat solidified 09:14 as certainly my understanding of how much, 09:17 you know, faith makes a difference 09:20 in a person's life. 09:21 But somewhere this journey continued in there... 09:24 At some point there was a fork in the road, 09:28 13 years old, family going through divorce, 09:31 at what point in your years following that, 09:34 that this spark of a different interest 09:38 start to seep into your life? 09:40 So I think it was probably my freshman year of college 09:44 when I was thinking more seriously about ministry, 09:49 and I decided to go into the seminary. 09:52 I ended up finishing my undergraduate 09:54 and then I ended up doing my graduate studies in Rome. 09:58 So I spent three years 09:59 across the street from the Vatican... 10:01 Wow. 10:02 Studying theology and went all the way through 10:04 to being ordained as a deacon 10:06 and being ordained as a Catholic priest. 10:08 Wow. So you really, I mean, you didn't lose trajectory. 10:12 You just went all the way to the top thinking, 10:14 "Well, this is what I'm going to solidify myself in doing 10:17 and this is going to be my life practice." 10:19 That's right. 10:21 What happened? 10:22 So I was ordained and I was serving as a priest. 10:25 And there were many aspects of ministry 10:28 that I really liked it, like preaching, 10:30 I like the pastoral counseling. 10:32 But I began to question 10:34 the mandatory celibacy requirement. 10:37 I just wondered 10:38 if I had given up too quickly 10:41 on the idea of a wife and children, 10:44 maybe some of the messiness of my parent's divorce 10:46 played into that like, 10:47 "Oh, that just looks hard. Maybe I'll just go over here." 10:51 So I'm questioning 10:52 whether perhaps I gave up on that too quickly, 10:55 and experiencing some loneliness, 10:57 but to be honest, it, you know, 10:59 if it is just been, "Oh, this isn't a fit for me. 11:02 Maybe I'll just leave," that would be one thing, 11:04 but I think the other thing that happened is 11:06 I was looking around at my friends in the priesthood 11:09 and really concluding that it seemed like 11:12 there's a lot of people 11:13 for whom this was not working well as a system. 11:18 You know, there definitely were 11:19 dedicated individual followers of Christ, 11:22 of course, in the ranks of the priesthood, 11:25 but looking at it as a system. 11:27 I'm just noticing, there are a lot of problems. 11:31 It seems like for a lot of guys there, 11:33 they want to be a Christian leader, 11:35 and they're trying to make this piece fit 11:37 versus really saying, 11:39 "Oh, I really feel called by God 11:41 to this unmarried state." 11:44 And I'm seeing, to be honest, I'm seeing problems. 11:47 I'm seeing priests violate celibacy, secretly, 11:50 I'm seeing loneliness and alcohol abuse at times, 11:54 like when you're trying to make something fit 11:56 that doesn't fit, 11:58 things don't always go so well. 11:59 So I'm starting to question at a systemic level, 12:03 if this is really the best way to pick leadership. 12:07 To choose leadership from a small sample of, 12:10 you know, unmarried males, 12:13 you're knocking out a lot of people 12:15 who could be good leaders when you're doing it that way. 12:18 So, to be honest, I start to think, well, 12:22 you know, if the church I'm in can be wrong 12:26 about something so fundamental, 12:27 like how to pick leadership, 12:29 I mean, that's going to permeate 12:31 many, many aspects of church functioning. 12:33 If they could be wrong 12:35 about something that fundamental, 12:36 maybe I also have to ask some other harder questions. 12:39 So then my personal journey 12:41 took me to graduate school for psychology, 12:45 and I did leave the priesthood 12:46 and I had the goal to date 12:48 and find a good Christian woman to marry. 12:52 And that was, I mean, when you think about it, 12:54 and I like the way you put that together, 12:55 because to be a part of the priesthood, 12:57 you really are declaring 12:59 committing your life to celibacy. 13:02 But at the very same time, 13:03 when you look at the very beginning 13:05 of the Bible, 13:07 the Lord gave to Adam, a wife, Eve, 13:11 and He says, 13:12 "Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth." 13:16 And so He gave, 13:17 He gave these qualities and these abilities 13:21 and that were actually required to be suppressed 13:25 to function in the capacity of a priest. 13:27 Right. 13:28 And as I said earlier, I think, you know, of course, 13:30 there are individuals 13:31 who are called to that single life. 13:34 But the notion 13:36 that you're going to find enough leaders 13:37 out of that smaller pool seems forced 13:40 and doesn't seem to serve the church well, 13:43 in my opinion. 13:45 What was the name of the lady that you met? 13:47 Dee Piekarek. 13:48 Okay. Tell us about her? 13:49 Fourth generation Seventh-day Adventist 13:51 from Michigan. 13:53 Wow. 13:54 And... Where did y'all meet? 13:55 We were both working at a psychiatric hospital 13:58 for troubled children. 13:59 At that point, I was in my graduate studies 14:01 for psychology, 14:02 but I needed a part time job to support myself 14:04 and she was looking at entering into graduate school 14:07 for psychology. 14:08 So we were both working on this hospital unit 14:11 for troubled kids. 14:13 And immediately I was impressed 14:14 with how great she was with the kids 14:16 and fast forward, 14:18 she eventually became a child clinical psychologist, 14:21 and is the co-Family Ministry's coordinator 14:23 at Milwaukee Central. 14:24 Okay. Happened to be your wife. 14:26 Yes, exactly. 14:28 And so, you know, 14:29 I was impressed with how she was with the kids. 14:31 And she tells me 14:32 she was impressed with how I was with the kids. 14:35 And I was also impressed 14:37 with what intense Christian she was. 14:40 To be perfectly honest, 14:41 I always thought, well, whoever I marry, 14:43 I'm going to be the more intense Christian. 14:45 I mean, I went all the way into the ministry. 14:47 And I now see the point, 14:50 she is the more intense Christian. 14:52 And from day one, I was just impressed with that. 14:56 And so she started telling me 14:57 more about her Adventist background. 15:00 And our spiritual discussions 15:02 were part of the great connection 15:04 we had right from the beginning. 15:05 I could see that, I mean, I could see that. 15:08 I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall. 15:10 On the day when you guys just started talking 15:12 about these divergent views, 15:14 these views that we're... 15:17 because of emotions 15:18 and because of the spark that was obviously there. 15:21 You were going to find a way to negotiate through these 15:23 just so this relationship could make it, 15:26 but then there's this deep interest 15:28 because you discovered, I liked what you said, 15:30 "She was an intense Christian." 15:32 Intensely devoted, 15:33 and then you came out of this whole culture of Catholicism, 15:38 bringing with it a wealth of knowledge, 15:40 that was an interesting journey. 15:42 What was some of the topics you talked about? 15:43 I mean, do you remember 15:45 the first thing you talked about? 15:46 Well, we were, 15:47 I think we were sitting on a bench watching our... 15:50 We'd have these teams of kids we had to watch, 15:52 but we could have a couple of minutes 15:54 as staff members 15:55 just to sit and talk a little bit 15:58 and we just, just talking about she said something like, 16:02 "I've always wanted to be either a stay at home mom 16:04 or a medical missionary doctor." 16:07 And, of course, now 16:08 she's a part time stay at home mom 16:10 and part time psychologist, 16:11 so she got pretty close to her dream 16:13 and, you know, she was open to talking about it. 16:17 I talked about my background 16:20 and we just compared notes 16:22 and she was very into her faith, you know, 16:26 I mean, she did not shy away from saying 16:30 that she felt like her faith 16:31 had created the spiritual conditions 16:34 that it really helped her to grow 16:37 and we just started comparing notes on that. 16:40 So the day evidently came 16:42 when maybe did she invite you to go to church? 16:45 Right, so a lot of things are happening at this time. 16:49 So, you know, we're dating and we're falling in love. 16:52 And so we really want to make this work, 16:53 of course, we know we've got, 16:55 we're joined as followers of the Lord Jesus, 16:58 but we know we're going to have some issues, 17:00 so to speak, of how we're going to work this out. 17:03 And so this leads 17:06 to what I would call my rough start with Adventism, 17:10 if I could call it that, you know, 17:12 so, she was relatively new to the Milwaukee area. 17:15 So we're still looking at, 17:17 you know, multiple Adventist churches as well. 17:20 So the truth of the story is that the first... 17:23 Well, two out of the first three times 17:25 that I stopped into an Adventist Church, 17:28 the preacher was up there really ripping into Catholics. 17:34 And I have to be honest with you, 17:35 and I don't mean just, 17:37 you know, prophetic proclamation, 17:38 I'm all for prophetic proclamations. 17:40 I'm here to make one today that I am grateful 17:42 that God has led me to this light. 17:45 But I'm talking about, 17:47 you know, sort of personalizing, 17:50 yeah, demeaning, you know, implying people 17:53 couldn't be working with the Lord 17:56 and that really set me back. 17:57 It took a while to overcome that first impression. 18:02 Now later, I would realize 18:04 that I could have walked 18:05 into an Adventist Church 100 times 18:07 and, you know, 95 times 18:09 I would have heard something completely different. 18:11 But first impressions matter. 18:12 Right. 18:14 So I did have this sort of setback like, 18:15 wow, I don't know 18:17 if I could ever join this group that, 18:19 you know, if this is what they're about, 18:21 and you see more about, 18:22 you know, tearing down other people 18:24 than saying what they're for. 18:26 And, of course, all of that would change 18:28 as I got to know the Adventist people 18:31 and I got to know 18:32 a number of Adventist ministers up close. 18:36 But, it was a rough start, and it's a good reminder, 18:38 we should always think about 18:39 who might be sitting out there and follow Mrs. White's counsel 18:43 that, you know, we're not here to tear down, 18:45 we're not going out of our way to attack other denominations. 18:49 You know, matter of fact, 18:50 the Bible says, Jesus said it Himself. 18:52 "If I be lifted up, I'll draw all men to myself." 18:55 As somebody asked me recently, when you go to church, 18:58 how do you decide what to preach 19:00 after you have 700 or 800 sermons, 19:02 and I said you can never go wrong 19:03 if you lift up Jesus. 19:05 And so that's very important. 19:06 I'm glad you brought that, 19:08 you can never go wrong if you lift up Christ. 19:09 He will draw people to Himself. 19:12 But so now you're negotiating. 19:16 I won't say a mediocrity, amazing mediocrity 19:19 but you're negotiating, and you kind of all right, 19:24 so much for that experience. 19:25 How do we continue there 19:27 because there's Dee who is this, 19:29 who's finding a home in your heart, 19:31 and you're finding a home in her heart. 19:34 And she's probably wondering, "Okay, about this. 19:37 I understand, you know, hold on, 19:40 this is not how it'll always be." 19:41 Exactly. 19:43 And so the journey continues 19:44 and let's talk about this transition 19:45 to where you kind of sever and connect? 19:49 So then we walk into Milwaukee Central SDA 19:53 and Pastor Rodney Mills and his wife Pam 19:56 are the pastor in the pastoral team. 19:58 And Pastor Rodney's area of expertise is evangelism 20:02 and it really showed, he just... 20:05 Well, he and Pam just welcomed us so much. 20:08 I mean, just said, "Hey, you're welcome 20:10 to participate as much or as little as you want. 20:13 We're glad you're here." 20:15 You know, at that point, we were young adults 20:17 and with a sort of complicated story going here. 20:21 And everybody wants to keep the young adults, 20:23 of course, and he was really good at it 20:25 and just welcomed us. 20:27 We got involved in music. 20:30 And he did offer me some Bible studies 20:34 that planted very deep seeds in me, 20:36 he, you know, he'd sit down, 20:38 we had a lot of fun with that with our two backgrounds 20:41 of having these theological discussions. 20:44 And you know, he showed me 20:47 some of the biblical basis of Adventism. 20:51 You know, things like saying, 20:52 Well, hey, do you think there's still wisdom 20:54 and do not commit adultery and do not steal? 20:57 I'd say, yeah, it's like, well, then how about the Sabbath? 21:00 It's in the same list, 21:02 do you think there's still some wisdom in that, 21:03 you know, this kind of thing 21:05 or showing me passages 21:06 where Jesus anticipates the Sabbath 21:08 will continue after He's gone. 21:10 And I'm like, "Oh, there is a logic to this." 21:13 There is a biblical basis to this 21:15 that I'd never really looked at, 21:16 so, so some very deep seeds 21:18 between his welcome and his Bible studies. 21:21 And then what happens at Milwaukee Central is, 21:25 I'm just, I'm just sort of falling in love 21:28 with these people. 21:30 Right? I'm getting such a good welcome from them. 21:34 And I'm looking around and I'm noticing, like, 21:36 "What is it with these Adventists 21:39 that they shine so brightly?" 21:42 Right, like, we're supposed to be the light of the world. 21:44 And it's like, all these people are like, 21:46 why are they all 200 watt bulbs instead of 60, 21:50 you know, I mean, it's like, well, 21:52 everybody gives more than 10% of their income 21:54 and I'm like, "What are you talking about? 21:56 Nobody does that." 21:57 You know, and we spend all day, 22:01 you know, worshiping God and reflecting on the Word. 22:02 I say, "Well, what are you talking? 22:04 Nobody does that. 22:05 Nobody stays in church all day. 22:06 Right. And so I'm experiencing this. 22:09 And I'm like, wow, I'm just very impressed. 22:14 And I'm starting to enjoy 22:17 spending these whole days with our music group, 22:20 you know, just not doing any work 22:22 and, you know, just resting in the Lord 22:25 and having these spiritual conversations 22:29 and, you know, it's just, it's like it is my community, 22:32 even though it's not yet officially my community, 22:36 it's really what's happening 22:37 and I give so much credit to that congregation 22:40 for loving me as I was, 22:42 not just what I might be some day, as a member, 22:46 but already loving me as I was, 22:49 just the ultimate sign 22:50 Jesus gave of His true followers, of course. 22:53 Not with ulterior motives. Right. 22:55 It was disinterested benevolence 22:57 just showing who they are, rather than sales pitch. 23:00 Exactly. 23:02 Or prerequisite to just reeling you in. 23:03 Exactly. And that's important. 23:05 I'm glad you bring that up because a lot of times, 23:07 people even give Bible studies 23:09 with an ulterior motive in mind, 23:11 or they have conversations 23:12 and they just can't wait to throw that hook in there 23:16 as though they're fishing all the time. 23:18 But, you know, even the Bible says, 23:20 "It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance." 23:25 You know, it's not the doctrines of God 23:27 that leads us to repentance, 23:29 those come after. 23:30 And when we have a love relationship, 23:32 this love connection, 23:34 a genuine scriptural love for one another, 23:37 really an interest in your well being 23:40 as well as mine, 23:41 it tends to come across more genuine than just saying, 23:44 "Hey, Bob, how long is it going to be 23:45 before you join our church?" 23:47 Exactly. 23:48 There's some people that have that. 23:49 Now, I want to just add this. 23:51 You may have run into some of those people 23:52 that have may have asked you that question, 23:54 because there are some that just kind of cut to the chase. 23:57 "So, hey, I heard you're not an Adventist, 23:58 when it's going to be," 23:59 you know, and that throws people sometimes. 24:01 And what I got actually, 24:03 Pastor, was much more wonderful invitations, 24:07 along the way. 24:08 People said, you know, 24:10 you certainly could be baptized, 24:12 or I wonder if God's calling you to more in this church, 24:15 but they were very inviting, 24:18 you know, kind of a thing and just accepting me as, 24:22 you know, sort of that, 24:23 I guess the old God fears in the Jewish days, 24:26 they weren't quite Jewish, 24:28 but they were sort of hanging around 24:29 and they just accepted me in that capacity 24:31 for a long time. 24:32 And that's very good, because you on this journey, 24:34 I mean, as a Catholic priest you're coming out of, 24:38 you're not just coming out of a theological experience, 24:40 you're coming out of dogma, 24:42 you're coming out of the deep seated understanding 24:45 of that's A, this is B, 24:48 and the two don't mesh, because the Sabbath was one. 24:52 But then when did you... 24:53 How did you handle the understanding 24:56 of what happens when a person dies, 24:58 I mean, that's just something that's quite different. 25:00 Right, so that was part of Pastor Rodney Mills' 25:03 Bible studies with me 25:04 was showing me that there is a biblical basis, 25:08 of course, you know, 25:09 for the state of the dead doctrine. 25:11 And once again, I was growing in respect for it 25:14 because I was getting a presentation of it, 25:17 you know, that was really showing, 25:18 hey, here's the biblical basis. 25:20 And here's some of the implications of it. 25:23 And so just the way it was presented, 25:26 it was easy for me to grow and respect. 25:30 And I like that. 25:31 How much of your background as a doctor 25:33 played a role in assimilating and in the segue 25:37 from where you were to where you are? 25:39 That's an excellent point, actually. 25:41 I think that being a psychologist, 25:46 you're always looking carefully at what would help people, 25:50 right? 25:51 And every day, 25:52 I hear people come in my office with deep pain. 25:54 I mean, they've got troubled marriages, 25:57 and depression, and anxiety, and seeking purpose in life. 26:01 And so I've always drawn those type of connections. 26:04 I've always thought the gospel has the answer to much of that. 26:08 But now I'm in this Adventist community. 26:11 And I'm really sort of seeing with my own eyes, 26:14 hey, these marriages look way stronger 26:16 than the average marriage, 26:18 I mean, you know, right, nothing is 100% you know, 26:20 we have the same human struggles 26:22 in the Adventist church, 26:23 but like, on average, 26:24 you know, I'm seeing, 26:26 like, my in-laws Carl and Ida Piekarek, 26:28 I mean, over 60 years, married, 26:31 you know, and I'm looking at these and I'm saying, 26:32 Wow, what, you know, what is this medicine 26:36 that is leading 26:37 to these great outcomes in families, 26:39 and I'm looking at, 26:40 I'm just looking at the way that faith for most Adventist 26:45 organizes everything else, 26:47 the use of money, the use of time, 26:49 their parenting, their dedication to marriage. 26:51 And, of course, 26:53 these are so many of the things 26:55 that everybody in the world is seeking. 26:58 Right? 26:59 How do I raise my kids in an environment 27:02 where there's going to be positive influences? 27:05 How do we deal with all these pressures 27:07 of narcissistic competition in society 27:11 that doesn't lead anywhere? 27:12 And here we have this community where there are different norms 27:16 where there are gospel norms. 27:18 So I think being a psychologist who's looking at, 27:20 you know, what works, 27:21 you know, just in a practical sense, 27:23 was a part of my attraction. 27:25 Yeah. 27:26 And being able to say, "Wow, look at this." 27:28 And because in your practice, as a psychologist, 27:31 your role is to help people in their journey, 27:36 psychological journey, relational journeys, 27:39 and we thirst for, 27:43 we thirst for that moment when the person says, I got it. 27:46 Thanks for your help. 27:47 I, you know, I know it's been difficult for us, 27:50 but thank you for hanging in there with me. 27:52 And you're now seeing examples 27:55 of what a healthy family should be, 27:58 what it means to be. 28:00 Are we going to be in church all day, 28:02 not just for like an hour and a half or an hour? 28:05 Don't we do whatever we want for the rest of the day? 28:07 And all of a sudden you're in a community that says, 28:09 "Oh, no, wait a minute, wait a minute, 28:10 from sunset to sunset, we celebrate the Sabbath." 28:15 That must have been an experience? 28:16 Absolutely. 28:17 Or just the intensity of like 28:19 starting kids out in cradle roll, 28:21 like, well, nobody starts from birth, 28:22 what are you going to do with them? 28:24 And Dee said, "You're going to see 28:25 what we're going to do with them. 28:27 We're going to sing songs, we're going to do things." 28:29 And even that experience, 28:31 it's like, wow, that that's working. 28:32 You know, 28:33 these kids are already learning some things. 28:35 They're already coming closer to Jesus 28:38 in that intense Adventist commitment 28:40 to educating our youth, 28:43 they're just sort of everywhere. 28:45 And you began to see that Adventist Christianity 28:48 is not some cult driven community 28:53 but one that's Christ centered. 28:55 Absolutely. 28:56 So often, you know, the opposite can be labeled... 29:01 Right. 29:02 They're a cult, but then you come into a community, 29:03 you begin to see, 29:05 Christ is affecting from cradle roll... 29:06 Exactly. 29:07 All throughout marriage. Right. 29:09 Well, let me continue that point if I may. 29:10 So, so that leads into maybe the next step of the journey 29:15 so now I'm, 29:16 you know, I'm kind of a member but not a member, 29:21 and Dee and I go into our having children years. 29:25 Yes. 29:27 And we had some real highs and some real lows 29:32 during that period, 29:34 where I felt like the character of this community 29:36 once again was revealed to us. 29:39 We lost two sons to neurological disorders, 29:43 our sons, Nikki and Maddie, 29:46 the saddest two days of my life have been standing 29:51 on the platform at Central for those funerals, 29:55 and the community was just incredible. 29:59 So loving, so supportive, 30:04 reminding us the Lord is there but not giving us pat answers, 30:07 you know, not trying to run over the painful part, 30:09 really being willing to enter in with us in that. 30:12 And in between the two boys, 30:14 the birth of our daughter, Delaney, who's eight now, 30:17 and just being willing to enter into our joy, 30:20 and being so blessed to have. 30:21 We had kind of a baby boom 30:23 around that time when she was born. 30:25 So we have straight cohort of families 30:27 raising their families going forth together, 30:30 and I'm just loving it, I'm just thinking, 30:32 what more could man ask of his church. 30:35 I'm getting everything I need here. 30:37 And then that brings me forth to, 30:41 you know, kind of the decision to be baptized. 30:44 So at this point, 30:46 I'm looking at my daughter Delaney, 30:48 and I'm thinking everybody wants the best 30:50 for their kid, right? 30:52 That's right. 30:53 And I'm thinking, 30:54 "I really hope she'll marry an Adventist," 30:57 you know, I think, you know, there's no guarantees 30:59 but, you know, statistically I'm feeling like 31:01 her best chance of getting 31:03 that incredibly dedicated Christian man for husband, 31:06 is going to be in the Adventist Church 31:07 and so I want the best for her. 31:09 And here I am saying Adventism is the best. 31:12 Well, 31:14 why am I not giving myself the best then? 31:15 Why am I not? 31:17 You know, kind of going all in? 31:18 So that insight is hitting me. 31:21 And at the same time, 31:22 I had a spiritual experience at Camp Wakonda 31:25 at camp meeting in Wisconsin. 31:26 Well, I know that, I spoke at that camp in '92. 31:30 It's great, isn't it? 31:31 It's amazing. 31:33 Yeah, very outdoorsy. 31:34 It's become one of my favorite places. 31:35 So at camp meeting, 31:38 I'm just walking the grounds 31:39 and you know, at camp meeting it's like, 31:41 it's like its own city during that time. 31:43 You're kind of your own community 31:44 at that time. 31:45 And I'm walking the grounds 31:47 and I'm just with all these wonderful, 31:49 trustworthy people. 31:51 And I'm looking around and I'm saying to myself, 31:54 "You know, this is probably what heaven would look like." 31:58 You know, I mean, 31:59 if everybody by God's grace 32:02 just followed the Ten Commandments, 32:03 what a different world it would be. 32:06 Say that again. 32:07 If everyone by God's grace 32:10 just followed the Ten Commandments, 32:11 what a different world it would be. 32:15 That's amazing. 32:17 And why wouldn't I want to be part of that community? 32:21 You know what's so powerful about that statement. 32:24 I'm taking it from a person with the background you have, 32:27 because I've heard that before. 32:29 But it gives a different gravity to it. 32:32 You know, the G forces increase. 32:35 When our listeners and viewers consider that 32:39 what you just said, 32:40 and I'm going to not speak in the third person 32:42 was made by a person 32:45 who went through the Catholic ministry, 32:47 who was a priest, 32:49 who went to the theological schools, 32:51 who was ordained, 32:52 who was in the ministry of Catholicism, 32:55 which we know traditionally that a traditional community 32:59 and a biblical based community, while the needs are identical, 33:03 everybody wants to be happier, 33:05 everybody wants to have solid families, 33:06 everybody wants to have their pains 33:07 and their hurts healed. 33:09 That's the commonality of all the communities. 33:11 But then you come out of a community 33:13 based on a lot of traditions 33:15 that have a rich heritage behind it 33:18 to one that's based on scripture, 33:20 which says, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." 33:22 And you discover that it's not a bad thing, 33:25 it's a good thing. 33:26 And so, as the pastor, 33:28 I go back a little bit rewind the videotape. 33:30 Yes, of course. 33:31 When the pastor says, 33:33 he started reciting the commandments to you, 33:35 and then he says, 33:36 "And so what's so bad about the Sabbath," 33:38 that's a part of that whole dialog. 33:41 And you come out of that rich heritage. 33:43 And so there are lights, 33:45 there are light bulbs coming on. 33:47 I go back to your analogy there, 33:48 200 watt light bulb coming along on your way. 33:50 Talk about that, I mean, 'cause these bulbs are just... 33:52 Right. 33:53 It just feels like everything's pointing me 33:55 in the same way, right? 33:57 I mean, I've seen the rich biblical foundations, 34:01 I've seen, the proof is in the pudding. 34:03 I'm seeing the community 34:05 and the intensity of their discipleship. 34:09 Like, at a level I've just never seen anywhere before. 34:14 I'm getting to know them up close and personal right there, 34:17 they've been with me through highs and lows. 34:21 And then I'm thinking about what I want for my daughter, 34:24 and having this experience at Camp Wakonda 34:27 and then the story wouldn't be complete 34:28 without talking about Pastor Sheldon Brian, 34:32 who's originally from Jamaica, 34:33 but he came in from Salt Lake City Church 34:36 over to become the pastor at Milwaukee Central. 34:40 And he's so good at outreach. 34:44 And this is just sort of catching fire 34:46 a little bit with me. 34:47 I'm seeing him reaching the young people 34:51 again in a new way and visiting the sick 34:54 and he's out there meeting everybody. 34:57 And I'm sitting there as a psychologist going, 34:59 "I think there's something 35:00 that this community has to offer the world 35:03 that this dying world, this sort of lonely world." 35:07 And now we have this pastor who's so good at outreach. 35:10 And he's sort of saying the same thing. 35:12 He's able to dialog about all the contemporary issues, 35:15 you know, in the frame of biblical Adventism. 35:19 And I'm just sort of attracted like 35:21 this is all coming together, I really wanna be part of that. 35:25 And this is the kind of outreach 35:28 I really wanna be part of. 35:30 And so it's just like multiple pointers 35:32 are just all sort of pointing me 35:35 to going all in and joining 35:38 and I was baptized by Pastor Shelton. 35:39 Wow. 35:40 And you mentioned Jamaican, 35:42 my wife has a Jamaican background, 35:43 born in England, but her family's Jamaican. 35:45 And as I'm listening, 35:47 the picture that just came to my mind, 35:48 no pun intended, is that all along the way, 35:51 the Lord was brush stroking, 35:53 brush stroking a painting of your journey. 35:57 And your baptism was just the framing of it. 35:59 Right. Right. 36:00 'Cause it didn't just get taken on that day, 36:02 it didn't just come to fruition, 36:03 it didn't just start happening. 36:05 You didn't just fall in love with the Lord 36:07 on the day of baptism, 36:08 but you were part of this consistent journey... 36:09 Absolutely. 36:11 A theological journey, a relational journey, 36:13 a journey through hard times, and tears, 36:15 the journey of loss and renewal, 36:17 a journey of new beginnings. 36:19 And your wife Dee, talk about her, 36:21 in all of this she's patiently watching this journey happen. 36:25 I gotta... 36:26 Give me some of her insights? 36:28 Well, again, I think she, you know, I mean, 36:30 I think there's a great truth in Adventism 36:34 about religious freedom. 36:36 Okay. 36:37 I think we're more into that than almost anybody 36:39 and understanding that notion of a free choice of worship. 36:43 And I felt like she really gave me that all through, 36:47 you know, she said, you know, come and see it. 36:51 And yet, there was a sense of, 36:53 hey, if you are needing to be kind of where you're at, 36:58 which is sort of close, but not quite a member, 37:02 if that's where you need to be right now. 37:04 That's okay. But I love you anyhow. 37:06 We'll keep walking the journey, right? 37:08 And, of course, 37:09 we really worked out that Darlene, 37:10 he was being raised in the Adventist Church 37:13 which was important to her. 37:15 And so, you know, 37:16 she was very comfortable all along. 37:19 And I think trusting in the Holy Spirit, 37:21 you know, we knew that our marriage was fruitful, 37:23 we knew that the Lord was with us, 37:26 and would guide our path. 37:28 And so for her, 37:29 I don't think there was a lot of anxiety, 37:30 I think she, 37:32 she always believed we would end up 37:34 where we were meant to be. 37:36 That's a powerful. 37:37 I mean, that's a powerful testimony 37:39 to the patience of a saint. 37:42 Okay. Can I use that prayer? 37:44 Because Revelation 14:12, 37:45 you know, here are they keep the commandments of God. 37:49 Here's the patience of the saints. 37:51 So commandment keeper 37:52 should also be a patient person... 37:53 That's right. That's right. 37:55 Because the Lord is in charge of that journey, 37:56 it just clicked, it just happened right now. 37:59 And so you're seeing the patience of a saint... 38:01 Right. 38:02 One who says, 38:04 "Bob, Hey, could you pick up something when you come back 38:07 from the store for me?" 38:09 And hey, you know, by the way, we're gonna church tomorrow. 38:11 That's right. Tomorrow's the Sabbath. 38:12 Yeah, it is. 38:14 I'll get it, honey. 38:16 It'll kick in sooner or later. Right. 38:17 And some day, and then one day it just kicks in, 38:19 it locks in. 38:20 And then instead of saying, 38:22 Well, you know, I'm gonna go to church on Sunday, Sabbath? 38:26 Did you have that kind of experience? 38:27 Oh, yeah. 38:29 I mean, I think it was important to Dee, 38:30 of course, that, you know, Friday is a day of preparation. 38:33 And I mean, it's bigger than, 38:35 you know, just a small portion of the day. 38:37 And so our family got into those rituals, 38:39 and, of course, it's addictive in a good sense. 38:43 You know, it becomes so attractive to begin, 38:47 you know, again, she didn't have to force it on me, 38:49 it just, I'm a very hard worker, 38:52 that's just part of my personality 38:54 and it became attractive to me to look forward 38:58 to being able to step away from all of that 39:01 and slow things down 39:02 and really just, you know, be with the Lord 39:04 and be with the community. 39:06 So I think she knew what she was doing. 39:09 And just sort of let it be attractive to me. 39:13 And it worked. 39:14 And, you know, 39:16 you bring out a point that so often overlooked. 39:18 A lot of times people think that, 39:19 you know, we just go to church on Saturday. 39:22 But the whole rest aspect of the Sabbath is something 39:25 that if you look at the Jewish practice, 39:27 even among those who didn't accept Jesus, 39:32 when they looked at the Sabbath, 39:34 it was a preparation that started midweek, 39:36 they knew that Friday was coming, 39:38 they knew that this time is coming. 39:40 And they started getting their minds, 39:41 and their practices, and their schedule, 39:42 and their shopping, everything around that. 39:44 So that when the sun set on Friday, 39:45 they were ready to welcome the family into a new 39:49 I refer to as a canopy of blessings. 39:51 Right. 39:52 And as a hard worker, 39:53 who, you know, the job you do 39:55 is not just demanding physically, 39:57 but demanding psychologically, 40:00 and you're dealing with people who really, 40:01 sometimes you could go home and say to your wife, 40:03 "Dee, oh, today was a tough day, 40:05 I hadn't really, had a tough day." 40:08 And then she says, "Bob, we can relax." 40:10 Right. Sabbath is coming. 40:12 Shut it down. 40:13 And that's important. 40:14 Talk about that because there's some Christians 40:16 that are in the community of Christianity, 40:18 I'm not saying Catholicism versus Adventism, 40:20 but in the Christian community, just as a psychologist, 40:24 and as a one who discovered and now embraced the Sabbath 40:27 and this whole new walk with Christ. 40:31 Kind of communicate that, 40:32 there may be somebody watching the program that would say, 40:35 "Well, I'm not Catholic, and I'm not Adventist." 40:38 But what does the Sabbath meant to you? 40:39 I mean, what is it done? 40:41 How does it transform your life? 40:42 Right. 40:43 Well, I think it's one of those things. 40:45 I will frame it in not just the individual, 40:48 but society search right now, if I may. 40:51 I mean, there's so many ironies right now 40:56 that about, 40:57 everybody's looking for these answers. 41:00 And we're sitting here and we've got the medicine, 41:04 but somehow making that connection, 41:05 I mean, that's what I see as part of my mission 41:08 as a Family Ministry coordinator. 41:10 We have so much medicine for individuals and families. 41:14 And the Sabbath would be 41:15 one of those medicines God has provided, right? 41:18 I mean, so there's just so many ironies, Pastor. 41:20 So there are psychologists, 41:22 literally writing articles today that sound like this. 41:26 You know, if only we could find a way 41:29 to get these families off of their phones and screens, 41:33 and actually spend time, 41:36 if they would just pick some time 41:38 that they would spend together, 41:40 interacting with each other 41:42 that would be so good for their mental health. 41:44 And I'm sitting there going, 41:46 hello, we have that, the Sabbath, right? 41:48 That's right. 41:49 I mean, you see the irony in that, 41:50 that people are saying, "Where? 41:52 What structure, what wisdom could make this happen?" 41:55 And here, it's ancient wisdom sitting right here. 41:59 Right? 42:01 I mean, that's just one example of what we have to offer. 42:07 That is just a healing, kind of balm, right? 42:10 Or, we're similarly we sort of have, 42:14 we've got psychologists saying, 42:15 "Oh, this is becoming an addictive society." 42:17 You know, everybody's addicted to alcohol, or drugs, 42:21 or pornography, or something, 42:23 you know, if only we could have some communities of support 42:25 to get people out of this, 42:27 where that's not the norm and where there's, 42:29 you know, where there's sort of a different way of coping, 42:31 and I'm sitting there thinking, hey, the Adventist Church, 42:35 you know, communities that by and large, 42:38 you can trust that peer group for your kids, 42:41 there's gonna be some strong norms against, 42:43 you know, addiction is the answer. 42:45 Amen. Right? 42:46 So we sort of have these things. 42:48 And it is a real challenge 42:50 of how do we bridge that gap, 42:55 and help people to take a look 42:58 and experience 43:00 some of that great, great medicine 43:03 that we have to offer. 43:05 That I love that evangelistic approach 43:07 because you just, 43:10 from a professional perspective, as a psychologist, 43:13 from a Christian perspective, 43:15 as one whose journey is rich, 43:17 and from an experiential perspective, 43:20 you've pulled together, the key components, 43:25 and what our world is in need of, 43:27 rest, 43:28 something our generation has forgotten how to do rest, 43:31 and we are continually connected, 43:33 24/7, you can watch television anytime, 43:36 anywhere, anyhow, on any device, 43:38 your phone included, 43:39 and the world had kept us in a... 43:43 Let me use this phrase, in a dopamine flooded society. 43:46 Exactly, exactly. 43:48 You know, and it's not working. 43:50 I mean, you can look at research. 43:53 There's a book called iGen 43:54 about the generation coming after the millennials 43:57 and some studies of their mental health. 43:59 And this book points out 44:01 there's a literal epidemic of depression and anxiety 44:05 among children and teens, college freshmen. 44:09 There been surveys done year after year, 44:11 for 50 years of college freshmen. 44:13 And college freshmen are reporting 44:15 with the highest level of mental health symptoms 44:18 ever in history to their freshman year. 44:20 They're already flooding the counseling center 44:22 before they've taken, 44:23 you know, half of a semester of classes. 44:25 Wow. 44:26 And this book points out a strong link 44:28 to the social media addiction 44:30 and how that causes depression and anxiety. 44:33 In the same book, 44:35 they find one of the most robust protective factors 44:39 against being depressed and anxious as a child or teen 44:43 involvement in church activities. 44:44 Wow! 44:46 So, you know, again, 44:47 this is like hiding in plain sight. 44:48 I like that. It's hiding in plain sight. 44:50 And how do we get that message out? 44:54 That what we have is eternal wisdom 44:56 about how people are meant to connect and live. 45:00 Here's another one. 45:02 There's a sort of growing movement 45:04 about like, get out in the natural world. 45:07 There are studies that show that taking a walk in the woods 45:10 raises your mood, you know, 45:11 and so psychologists are saying, 45:13 maybe we could invent nature therapy, 45:15 you know, where you go walk in the woods, 45:16 and I'm thinking, 45:18 "Okay, how much of our Sabbath activities 45:21 are all about typically, getting out in the creation, 45:26 experience the Creator's creation, 45:28 study His creation, spend time in creation?" 45:32 You see the irony here, 45:33 we're looking for these answers. 45:34 We have these answers, 45:36 we have to find ways 45:37 to make sure we're getting that information out there. 45:40 That isn't a beautifully attractive way. 45:42 I mean, as a pastor, 45:45 I have all these lights going off. 45:47 And in ways of presenting this rich community 45:50 of Adventist Christianity, 45:52 in a world that is really being drained 45:54 looking for something that is right there. 45:58 It's like the guy on the roof of his house, 45:59 and the water is rising, and a car comes in heavy rains. 46:04 And he says, I'm waiting for somebody to deliver me 46:05 and then the boat comes and he's drowning. 46:09 Right. Right. 46:10 And he's missing what's right there being presented to him. 46:13 Yeah. 46:14 And that's been your experience. 46:15 Absolutely. 46:17 I think that, 46:18 you know, there's so much research on this, 46:22 I could go on a long time. 46:23 I mean, that marriages, 46:25 you know, if couples view the marriage bond as sacred, 46:28 not just a human contract, 46:30 their marital satisfaction is greater. 46:32 If they view sexuality is sacred, 46:34 their sexual satisfaction is greater. 46:37 If they are men who attend church, 46:41 spend more, their free time with their kids 46:43 instead of in solitary pursuits. 46:45 I mean, we could go on and on about the influence 46:48 of vibrant community, 46:50 like the Adventist Church and the way that it supports 46:54 so much of where God wants us to be in healthy families. 46:58 Wow. 46:59 And that's part of the message I want to get out. 47:01 Yeah, that's what you do on a daily basis. 47:05 Let's toast it down to the ministry of your church. 47:08 What you do during the week? 47:10 So my paid job is a clinical psychologist, 47:15 I see basically patients, 47:17 you know, as well as help run the business 47:19 'cause somebody's got to do that. 47:22 And then my primary ministry at Milwaukee Central, 47:25 along with Dee is 47:26 we're Family Ministry coordinators. 47:28 So over the last couple of years, 47:30 we've been doing some parenting seminars, 47:33 we've done marriage seminar, 47:35 we've done some social events, 47:37 we help cosponsor the financial literacy program. 47:40 And, of course, 47:42 part of what we're doing with that 47:43 is we're trying to let people know 47:45 that we care about what they care about, 47:47 you know, we understand that. 47:49 You know, Ellen White said, the health message is like... 47:53 If Ellen White said it's a wedge, 47:55 that people will say, 47:56 "Well, why do these people live in so long?" 47:59 You know, it's an interesting thing, 48:01 I think the mental health message 48:03 could be the even more powerful wedge today 48:05 for people to stand up and say, what's up with those families. 48:09 You know, they look like 48:11 their kids really have good self-control, 48:14 and are not in a completely depressed state all the time, 48:18 or, you know, aren't getting addicted to drugs? 48:22 What's going on with that? 48:24 And so we've begun trying to do these programs 48:26 and publicize them in the community. 48:29 So that maybe somebody will come 48:31 who's interested in improving their parenting 48:33 and sort of find out 48:35 some of the real power behind our parenting, 48:39 you know, which is Jesus. 48:40 That's, I mean, this is so informative to me, 48:43 it's more than just the journey of, 48:45 you know, where you've come from theologically, 48:48 but just the, now the other side of this coin, 48:50 the answer to a society 48:52 that's actually melting around us, 48:55 driven by the pursuit of happiness, 48:58 but not knowing that happiness doesn't have to be pursued. 49:01 It's right here to be experienced. 49:03 Exactly, exactly. 49:04 That's really well said, 49:05 and there's sort of different types of happiness. 49:07 Right. 49:09 There's sort of, I mean, there's hedonism, which is, 49:12 you know, avoidance of pain... 49:13 Right. 49:14 And seeking constant pleasure 49:16 and studies actually show that doesn't work. 49:19 You know, that's where addiction comes in, 49:20 you need a bigger dose just to get the same effect 49:22 and ultimately that runs out of gas. 49:24 Anhedonia. 49:25 Whereas, right, anhedonia, 49:26 whereas people who seek meaning and fulfillment, 49:29 which is a deeper kind of happiness, right? 49:31 And, of course, the gospel is our meaning. 49:34 It's easy to see if you look in, 49:36 the battle is with the sin in yourself. 49:39 It's so easy to see, that's what we're here for. 49:42 And grace is what allows you to win that battle, 49:45 it's just, if you really reflect on it, 49:47 it's just easy to see, that's what we're here for. 49:50 And when people realize what we're here for. 49:53 And they're seeking 49:55 that fulfillment of that mission, 49:58 then they are happy as a byproduct of knowing 50:02 that they're aligned with what God wants them to do 50:05 and they know they're working towards something 50:07 that's eternally good. 50:09 And so that is, 50:10 it is the secret to happiness in a sense. 50:12 I'm gonna use an odd comparison, 50:14 you know, have you heard of The Cheesecake Factory? 50:17 Yes. Okay. 50:18 People like cheesecake because it tastes good. 50:21 You don't have to scream at somebody and say, 50:24 "Please eat this cheesecake." 50:27 It's not heard so. 50:28 Once you taste it. 50:30 Oh, I got to get a slice of cheesecake. 50:31 I'm in town where there's cheesecake factory 50:33 somewhere by. 50:34 Yeah. 50:35 The Lord has put together, excuse my illustration, 50:38 a spiritual Cheesecake Factory, 50:41 where if you taste, 50:44 you'll see that the Lord is good. 50:46 And I say this 50:48 not in the exclusion of other communities, 50:50 but I'm an Adventist pastor for that very reason. 50:53 I saw different communities, Baptist, Nazarene, Catholic, 50:58 Pentecostal, 51:00 I looked at that as a young man and see, 51:01 you cannot live this life and still be saved. 51:04 And I came to discover that, wow. 51:07 While there are good things in each of those communities, 51:09 this is the more complete package. 51:11 And we believe, 51:13 as John 10:16 says, 51:15 "Other sheep the Lord has that are not of this fold." 51:16 Right. 51:18 But when you look and you say, 51:19 "Well, I'm looking for the cleanest, 51:22 most complete picture of the shepherd, 51:23 and all he has to offer," 51:25 and is found here in this community. 51:27 And I wanna give people an opportunity 51:29 to get in touch with you 51:31 to find out how they could invite you, and your wife, 51:33 and your daughter to come and benefit 51:37 if they're in the Milwaukee area 51:38 to come to your church and visit your community. 51:39 Sure. 51:41 But if you can invite, 51:42 if you could be invited to come 51:43 and maybe share some of these things 51:45 in other communities. 51:46 And so if you're listening on the radio, 51:48 and you've been blessed by this, 51:49 and I have been blessed by Dr. Nohr, 51:52 Dr. Robert Nohr's insight and experience. 51:55 Here's the information that you need 51:57 to be able to get in touch with him, 51:58 to contact him, 52:00 to invite him to your community, 52:01 and to find out that the spiritual journey 52:04 has so many components to it, 52:06 that it also contains the answers to many of the ills 52:10 of our world today, 52:12 both young and old. 52:14 Whether you're a baby boomer, a Gen X, a millennial, 52:17 the answer comes 52:19 in the complete picture of Christ. 52:20 If you want to know more about that. 52:22 Here is the information that you need to get in touch 52:25 with Dr. Nohr. 52:28 If you're interested in inviting 52:29 Dr. Robert Nohr and his family, 52:31 to share his testimony on how God led his life 52:34 to a new beginning. 52:35 You can contact him 52:37 at Milwaukee Central SDA Church, 52:39 2229 North Terrace Avenue, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202. 52:46 Again, that's Milwaukee Central Seventh-day Adventist Church, 52:50 2229 North Terrace Avenue, Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53202, 52:56 or you can email him at Rnohr@me.com. 53:02 Again, that's Rnohr@me.com. |
Revised 2019-06-12