3ABN Today

Coming Out Ministries Updates

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants:

Home

Series Code: TDY

Program Code: TDY018087A


00:01 I want to spend my life
00:07 Mending broken people
00:12 I want to spend my life
00:18 Removing pain
00:23 Lord, let my words
00:30 Heal a heart that hurts
00:34 I want to spend my life
00:40 Mending broken people
00:45 I want to spend my life
00:51 Mending broken people
01:11 Hello, and welcome to 3ABN Today! I'm so
01:15 excited. I have Jason Bradley, my son and
01:18 co-host. Hey Jace! And we have an amazing
01:23 program. Are you excited about the program? - I'm
01:25 excited about it. - Tell us why. - Because, I
01:27 mean, we're going to be discussing topics that
01:29 need to be discussed. I mean, there are things
01:32 that are going on in our world that society is
01:35 trying to normalize and make it seem like it's
01:39 an acceptable form of behavior, and we have
01:44 to counteract the counterfeit. - There we
01:46 go. And our guests are on the front lines.
01:50 I mean, they are fighting for... I guess for
01:57 redemption and showing that people can be
02:03 redeemed. So, instead of me talking about it,
02:04 why don't I introduce our guests? Our guests
02:07 are from Coming Out Ministries. Pastor Ron Woolsey
02:11 and Mike Carducci. Yay! You guys are
02:16 more than just our colleagues in ministry;
02:18 you're our brothers and you're our family,
02:21 and we love you guys. - Thank you. - Yeah.
02:24 Yvonne, you gave us the first break years ago
02:26 by interviewing us. - Well, praise the Lord.
02:29 It's interesting, because I was at ASI and I met
02:34 Wayne there. Before I met you, I think I met
02:37 Wayne first. He was at the booth, at the Coming
02:42 Out Ministries booth, and we started talking.
02:45 I found out what your ministry was about. I
02:50 was like, "Oh, no. Our 3ABN viewers
02:52 have to know about this," so we're really thankful
02:55 that you guys are here. Tell us about Coming Out
02:57 Ministries! What is it? - Well, we organized about
03:03 8 years ago. A number of us were working
03:06 individually in our own ministries, sharing our
03:10 testimonies and speaking for the Lord wherever
03:12 we had opportunity. A mutual acquaintance
03:16 called us and suggested we get together, meet
03:19 each other, talk about working together, and
03:22 we did that-SoCal Camp Meeting out in
03:26 California-and there, Coming Out Ministries
03:29 was born, and we've been carrying on now for
03:33 eight years. - What are you coming out of?
03:37 How'd the name... - Darkness into His
03:39 marvelous light. - Yes. Mike, tell us what your
03:46 impression of Coming Out Ministries-the
03:48 focus. - Sure. Well, when I came out of
03:52 the gay culture, after living that way for 20
03:55 years-and I had come out of Adventism basically
03:58 because I couldn't get my sexuality and my
04:00 religion to come together. So, when I came back,
04:03 I still didn't have resources available to
04:07 me to help guide me. I still struggle with
04:10 same-sex attraction; I still was struggling with
04:11 a lot of these things inside my mind, and I
04:14 thought that magically, it would all be gone
04:16 when I came up out of the water. As Coming
04:18 Out Ministries, we really intended to minister
04:22 primarily to people like ourselves that
04:24 were desperate for resources and tend to know,
04:27 "Hey, this is somebody else's experience and
04:30 this can be yours." I think what really
04:32 happened for me is that it watered down
04:34 the power of Jesus Christ to the point
04:36 where I just thought Jesus was a good guy. What
04:39 I had to realize, again, is that He still had
04:41 the same power that He had 2000 years ago
04:44 to heal people. And Ministry of Healing
04:46 was one of the books that really helped me
04:50 to understand that process, but what we
04:52 realize now is that Coming Out Ministries
04:54 really has an application for all of us. We're
04:57 all coming out. Revelation says, "Come out of her,
04:59 my peoples." Let's get a T-shirt that just says,
05:02 "I'm coming out," and on the back put- in Revelation:
05:05 "Come out of her, my people." Now, we see
05:09 that the ministry is much broader than just
05:11 the LGBT issue; it's about educating the
05:14 church and also ministering to victory over sin.
05:17 - That's one of the things that I love
05:19 about Coming Out Ministries. You don't just focus
05:23 on homosexual sin; you focus on sin, because
05:30 sin is sin across the board. We're all sinners
05:33 saved by grace, so you guys don't just focus
05:37 on one sin; sin is sin, and you talk about
05:41 how to get the victory. And you, Pastor Ron,
05:43 just said, "It's about bringing us out from
05:46 darkness into God's light." We have-how
05:50 about this segue?-we have a song called,
05:54 "The Lighthouse" that we're going to play
05:56 right now with Brother Sam Ocampo.
10:23 Wow. Sam makes me wish I would've stuck with
10:25 piano lessons. I don't know why you let me
10:27 quit! - [laughs] You know, don't get me started
10:30 with that! You don't even want me to go
10:32 there! - I don't think we have enough time.
10:33 [laughter] - I know; we don't even wanna
10:36 go there. Yes, and thank you, Sam, for that song.
10:39 We need the light of Jesus Christ in our lives
10:43 to bring us out from darkness! And that's
10:47 what we're talking about today. God has
10:50 brought you, has brought us, out from darkness
10:52 into His marvelous light. - You know, one
10:55 of the things that I really appreciate and
10:57 admire about you guys is you're open; you're
11:00 transparent. I mean, you have to be very vulnerable
11:04 because you share some things that took place in
11:08 your lives that a lot of people would be
11:12 uncomfortable sharing. But yet, you do that,
11:14 and people see that you gained the victory over
11:19 whatever it was that you were struggling
11:20 within your past. And that helps other
11:23 people overcome, as well; it gives them a sense
11:26 of hope. - You know, one thing, I think, that
11:29 helps us-and I can share an example-I call this
11:33 "the gospel according to gossip." There was a
11:36 gossiper at a camp meeting that was
11:39 talking about me and my past, and the gossipee,
11:42 the one listening, was not hearing about Ron
11:45 Woolsey's failures; he was hearing about God's
11:47 power. Though the intent of the gossiper was
11:51 malicious, the gossipee then came to me (and
11:56 I didn't know this conversation had gone
11:57 on). He looked at me kind of funny. He said,
12:00 "Man, Pastor Ron. If God can save you, He
12:04 can save anybody!" And I said, "What do you mean
12:08 by that?" [laughter] Then he had told me
12:10 what he had heard, then afterwards, he
12:13 asked if I would baptize him. That's why
12:14 I called it "the gospel according to gossip."
12:16 I baptized that fella after that episode of
12:19 gossip that he went through. But it's true
12:24 when you hear that kind of reaction to your
12:28 extreme testimony, you realize, "We serve
12:31 an extreme God," and we need to talk about
12:33 it. It's not about what we have done
12:37 and what the devil has done in our lives; it's
12:39 what God has done that we focus on, and that
12:42 gives us courage to go forward. - Absolutely.
12:45 - I think of Revelation 12:11 that says if we
12:47 overcome by the blood of the Lamb and by the
12:49 word of our testimony... And when we give our
12:52 testimony, it's not just the people that
12:54 struggle with same-sex attraction that come
12:56 forward. It's everyone! And they say, "Wow,
12:59 that story really touched me and had a personal
13:03 application." I think that it's really sad
13:07 that more people don't have that freedom to
13:09 tell their story, 'cause people say, "Oh, that
13:11 was really brave of you to really tell all
13:12 the details," or whatever. And I think,
13:14 "No, not really," because whenever I tell that
13:16 story, we get a lot of support, and I think
13:19 of the people that are really hurting in the
13:21 pews that don't feel that they have the
13:24 freedom to tell what they've gone through.
13:26 So, maybe at first, it was a little daring,
13:28 but now, we get a lot of support from the
13:31 churches and places that we speak at. - I
13:33 think it would be good for our viewers who
13:36 are just tuning in for the first time-...
13:40 Some of our viewers have heard your story
13:42 before, but some have not. Can you just kind
13:46 of give a brief snippet of your testimony so
13:49 that you can kind of acquaint the people
13:52 who don't know about you with you? - Well,
13:55 it's a good question that you're asking,
13:57 because our ministry really does have a
14:00 three-pronged approach now (and maybe we
14:05 can talk about that). The first is that we
14:09 want to inspire the church, and we inspire
14:13 by telling our testimonies. Mike quoted Revelation
14:17 12:11 that we overcome by the blood of the
14:19 Lamb and the word of our testimonies, and we
14:21 find people that are very inspired when they
14:24 hear what the Lord has done in our lives. I was
14:28 the one who was sexually molested as
14:31 a very young child- 4 years old. I was
14:33 repeatedly molested in grade school. I think
14:37 I was pushed away from my peer group
14:40 and pushed away from my gender through mocking
14:43 and making fun and through molestation. I ended
14:49 up eventually going into the gay life and spent
14:52 many years there, but I never really was
14:57 comfortable that I was okay with God, and I
15:00 was a spiritual person. After years of spending
15:03 my life in the gay world, I studied my
15:06 way out. I went to the Bible, I went to our
15:11 inspired writings (books like Steps to Christ and
15:15 The Great Controversy and Desire of Ages)-
15:19 all of those. I know I started out reading
15:21 with a margarita in one hand and a
15:23 cigarette in the other. I was desperate to
15:25 find answers. I found everything I needed
15:29 as a gay person. I found everything I needed
15:32 through the Word of God to turn and walk away.
15:36 That was a struggle, but it was doable
15:39 because God's grace is sufficient. So, I have
15:42 lived these 27 years now free from the gay
15:46 life; married for 26 years. We have 5
15:50 children between us; 2 together. We have
15:54 grandchildren. 27 years in ministry, and the
15:57 Lord has never failed me. I know I have
16:00 failed Him from time to time, but He has never
16:02 failed me. I would never go back. So,
16:05 we hope people are inspired by that. I
16:07 know Mike's got an amazing testimony,
16:10 as well. - Yes... - It's interesting, because
16:14 each person in Coming Out Ministries has a
16:16 completely different story, and a lot of
16:18 people think that there's a formula for why
16:20 somebody's gay or bisexual. One of the
16:23 beautiful things also that Coming Out
16:25 Ministries has been working on is an
16:27 associate pathway where other people
16:29 come in and they're like, "I have a story!"
16:31 You know? "I want to tell my story; we want
16:33 to work with you!" So, Pastor Ron actually
16:36 oversees that, and through Bible studies
16:38 and opportunities for them to practice telling
16:41 their story, we're actually bringing in
16:43 other people into the ministry, as well. But
16:45 my story actually began from my first conscious
16:48 moment; I thought I was a girl. It was no doubt
16:50 in my mind from my earliest thoughts, and
16:53 it wasn't until I came back at 40 years old
16:56 that I made this demand to God; I wanted Him to
16:58 know how I was transgendered at my earliest thoughts.
17:01 And through science and through the Bible, it
17:03 started to show me that there was a breakdown
17:06 between my father and me- the same-sex parent.
17:08 My dad was either unavailable for me or,
17:11 when he was, he was angry and abusive, so
17:13 I didn't want that sexuality or that
17:16 identity, and so I went to my mom. My
17:19 earliest thoughts after consciousness is that
17:21 I should be like my sisters without another
17:23 role model that I found acceptable. I just
17:27 started patterning that way and I thought
17:29 that if I prayed hard enough that maybe,
17:31 God would turn me into a little girl and everything
17:32 would be alright. So, that eventually led to
17:36 same-sex attraction through some exposure
17:40 to my best friends engaging in a homosexual
17:44 act; all of these things were having an influence
17:46 on me-and I was never molested like Ron was-
17:49 but there were definitely some influences that
17:51 were helping to shape that. At 20 years old,
17:53 I finally was okay with being male, because
17:56 coming out of church culture into gay culture,
17:59 masculinity was more valuable. So, if I
18:02 butch it up a little bit and worked out in the
18:04 gym, I found that I got all the attention
18:06 from men that I wanted. So, it was like it went
18:08 from one side of the ditch to the other. Amazingly,
18:12 though, I had three sisters that were
18:13 praying for me. Wanted nothing to do with
18:15 the God that I thought wanted nothing to do
18:17 with me, but those prayers came and got
18:19 me. At what I thought was the top of my game,
18:24 I was a hairdresser and an aerobics
18:26 instructor. I don't know that you can get
18:27 any more gay than that; that was-... [laughter]
18:30 That was the pinnacle of my life. The Lord
18:33 was able to reach me; began this journey. It
18:36 was difficult, because, again, I needed those
18:39 resources that Coming Out Ministries has now,
18:41 but the Lord was faithful. He says, "I'll
18:43 finish the work that I have started," and He's
18:45 been incredibly faithful. - Amen. Amen. - You
18:48 know, that second prong of our approach is to
18:54 enlighten the church, so we go beyond our
18:57 testimonies through our study and our
19:00 experience and the study of the Word of God.
19:02 We worked to educate the church. For example,
19:06 we addressed certain myths that are out
19:10 there, because we believe truth can bear
19:12 scrutiny. Truth is fact, and fact cannot be
19:17 altered; gravity works without- I mean, there's
19:19 no contest on how gravity works. It doesn't matter
19:23 what you believe; it's going to work the same
19:25 way all the time, and truth is that way. So,
19:28 we believe that truth can bear scrutiny. We
19:30 take various statements that come, for example,
19:33 out of the LGBT culture that "people are born
19:36 this way; once gay, always gay; it's an
19:39 acceptable alternative lifestyle; it's not
19:41 associated with promiscuity, and it's
19:45 a safe culture," and all of that. So, we take
19:49 these statements and then we just present
19:54 facts from science-from research-from surveys,
19:58 and we go back to the history of where this
20:02 "born gay" ideology even came from. It was totally
20:05 political. It is not scientific; it's not
20:09 biblical; it's political to get special privileges
20:13 as a legal minority status. So, we present
20:16 all of this, then we also take the Word
20:20 of God and say, "Now, let's look at what God
20:22 has to say about that statement and this
20:25 statement," so we really scrutinize the issues
20:29 from that perspective and we educate the church.
20:34 So many people- it's amazing how many people
20:37 have bought all of these lies from the enemy that,
20:41 even in the church, we always get this question
20:43 in a Q&A period. "What about those people who
20:46 are just born that way?" I mean, the church has
20:50 been drinking this in and has been affected
20:53 mainly because of not being educated. It's
20:56 not a willful ignorance; it's just a lack of
21:00 information, so we deal with these issues, and
21:03 Mike deals with some specific ones. - It's
21:06 also misinformation, because what's happening
21:11 is, there's a concerted effort on the part of
21:14 media to actually misinform. And also,
21:19 if you... You guys are coming from a place
21:23 of, "Let's love our LGBTQ community. Let's
21:29 love them; let's show them that there is a
21:32 better way-that God has a better way for
21:35 you." The counterfeit is, "You were born this way,
21:44 you can't get out of it..." You cannot even,
21:48 now, call it sin, because if you identify it as
21:53 sin, you're a homophobic or a bigot. So, it puts
22:00 you in this box of being hesitant to share the
22:05 gospel with someone who's going through
22:07 that, because you don't want to be misconceived
22:10 as a bigot! - Another issue is, you hear a lot
22:17 of people say, "Well, what is your truth?"
22:20 There's only one. There's only THE truth; you know?
22:23 It's the truth; not "What is your truth?
22:25 What is my truth?" The truth is the truth. So
22:28 many people are operating on feelings
22:31 as opposed to principles which- we are to stand
22:34 firm on principles that are found in the Word
22:36 of God. - And we are to call sin by its right
22:39 name. - That's right. - We cannot allow
22:41 political correctness to take a moral issue
22:43 out of the category of sin! We put it back
22:47 where it belongs. We do it with love and
22:49 compassion and with mercy and understanding.
22:53 We've been there, so we're not talking against
22:58 someone else; we're dealing where we have
23:01 been, and now, what we have come to know
23:04 because of our experience. - And I think that's
23:07 what makes the difference. I can talk to someone
23:10 who's used drugs. I could talk till I'm blue
23:14 in the face, but I have not personally
23:16 had that experience. I can talk to somebody
23:19 about being on every diet under the sun; I
23:22 can do that, and I can relate to that. But
23:25 there are just...
23:30 If you have not experienced it, you
23:33 can't really address it like someone who has.
23:36 You guys have come out from that culture, and
23:42 so no one can say to you, "Well, you don't
23:46 know what it's like." No! You've been there,
23:48 and you've been redeemed- and you want to share
23:51 it with others who are still there who don't
23:55 know how to get out. You've gotten out!
23:57 Praise God. - I think that's what Coming Out
23:59 Ministries really does offer is because, for
24:02 so long in the church, they had the truth,
24:05 but they did it with a sledge hammer. Now,
24:08 the other extreme is, it's all permissive.
24:14 "Just do whatever you want," or whatever,
24:16 and it's like, no! It's not like that, but it's
24:18 not like that, either. So, we have compassion
24:21 because we've been there and we've fought
24:23 that fight with Jesus Christ to come out and
24:26 to understand that. In the midst of all that
24:28 confusion and chaos, even coming back into
24:31 a church that will look at us like a freak
24:32 from Mars- we want to help people to recognize
24:36 that we need a lot more compassion in the
24:39 church, but we're not going to compromise
24:41 the truth in the process of doing that,
24:43 either. So, now we find ourselves really in a
24:45 bigger dilemma than we thought earlier. One
24:49 of the things, also, that Coming Out Ministries
24:51 has really evolved into is it's a ministry about
24:54 overcoming sexual sin. The #1 issue in the
24:57 church is not homosexuality; it's pornography. We have
25:01 even heterosexual men and women that are
25:04 coming into the ministry wanting to help because
25:07 they're experiencing victory over their
25:08 pornography or sexual acting out. I was speaking
25:12 to a young woman in August, and she's a
25:15 youth leader in her church and talking
25:17 about how she's addicted to pornography
25:19 and she's sexually active with other
25:21 people that are in our youth group, and they're
25:23 in their mid-twenties. I said, "Wait, don't
25:25 you know what the Bible says about that?" And
25:26 she says, "Well, not really, because the
25:28 church isn't talking about it. The world
25:30 is screaming ed, and they're telling us one
25:32 thing and the church doesn't say anything,
25:34 so we basically think that it's okay!" So, we
25:37 have a lot of education to do in the church-not
25:40 just on the gay issue, but on the sexuality
25:42 issue. - I think on all those taboo topics-like
25:47 drugs, sex-everything needs to be discussed
25:50 because whatever they're not teaching, you can
25:53 believe- like you said, the world is being
25:56 loud. They're bold, and they're putting
25:58 it right in your face, so it's our job to
26:01 educate. - This is why the term 'coming out' is
26:04 taking on such a broader meaning, because it's
26:07 not just coming out gay or LGBT or pornography
26:12 and masturbation and sexual sin; it's about
26:15 coming out of addictions of many kinds-coming
26:19 out of the addiction of sin itself. So, we
26:23 have found that it's taking on a much
26:26 broader focus than we had imagined, and our
26:32 third prong... - Wait, wait, wait, before you
26:34 go there- I wanted to add I found this quote
26:38 from Ellen White in Testimonies on Sexual
26:41 Behavior, Adultery, and Divorce, and she
26:43 said- she calls it "Satan's repetitious
26:46 plot." What she talked about is how the Israelites
26:49 were brought down by sexual sin as they were
26:52 on the banks of the Canaan land, right?
26:55 She said, "Satan will do this same thing
26:57 with all his strength when the heavenly"-
27:00 what did it say- "when the Israelites of our
27:04 day our standing on the heavenly banks of the
27:07 Canaan land." So right there, Ellen White makes
27:09 it very plain that the same issues that brought
27:12 down the Israelites are the same issues
27:14 today. We know that by handheld devices and
27:16 iPads and computers that our leadership,
27:20 our men and women, are being destroyed
27:23 out of the sexual sin, and yet could that be
27:25 part of the Laodicea that we struggle with
27:27 because nobody's talking about it? - Right. You
27:30 know how on Dare to Dream, we are always
27:33 trying to be cutting edge and all that,
27:36 and we have a new program coming out called,
27:38 "Exposing the Hidden Agenda." Raynond King,
27:41 who you guys know very well, he's hosting that.
27:45 He said-and this is so true-"Sexual activity
27:50 is probably at the top of Satan's list whether
27:55 it's heterosexual promiscuity, whether
27:58 it's homosexual, whether it's bisexual... Whatever
28:00 it is! Sexual activity, that, outside of God's
28:04 will, outside of marriage, that is Satan's
28:07 #1 way to ensnare people these days. It's been
28:12 going on since time and memorial, but that is
28:15 what's happening, and I think we have to really
28:17 look at: it's all about redemption from sin.
28:22 No matter what the sin is, it's all about
28:26 redemption! And that's what you guys teach
28:29 through Coming Out Ministries. That's one
28:32 of the things I love about what you do,
28:34 because anybody can come to one of your
28:36 sessions and get equipped to be delivered from sin,
28:43 because you will give them the tools. That's
28:46 what people don't have. They don't have the
28:49 tools. What's been the reaction to Coming
28:53 Out Ministries from the church, for example?
28:56 - You mentioned a word before we go there-
28:58 you mentioned the word 'equip.' I also want to
29:02 say, Jesus Himself said that, in Luke 17, "As
29:06 it was in the days of Lot, so shall it be when
29:09 the Son of man shall be revealed." So this issue...
29:11 ...it is a last-day phenomenon-a global
29:16 issue; but you mentioned 'equip.' That's the third
29:19 prong of our approach is to equip the church
29:22 for better service, with not just this issue,
29:26 but addictive issues, period. We both grew
29:28 up in a church that was not talking about these
29:31 issues. There were no resources; there was
29:35 no one we felt we could trust to talk to.
29:37 It was 18 years ago that someone from
29:42 The Review came to me and said, "Ron, we need
29:44 a resource on this issue. Would you write
29:47 your story?" So, that's where, I guess, we began
29:52 creating resources. It's amazing to me, and
29:56 amazing to us that God is using us, of all
29:59 people, to create the very resources that we
30:04 desperately needed in our youth. So, we now
30:07 have books, thanks to 3ABN and Dare to Dream-
30:14 you know, your networks. We have a lot of television
30:17 programs on DVDs that people are using. We
30:21 have lots of DVDs and pocket tracts and,
30:24 like I said, books. And our film, our documentary
30:30 which you have aired here. So, we're excited
30:33 that the Lord is using our ministry to create
30:36 the very resources that we ourselves desperately
30:40 needed, but we didn't have the experience
30:42 back then. Now, we have not only theology through
30:45 our training and our denomination and Bible
30:49 study, but we have our experience to add to it.
30:52 It makes a very powerful resource. - Absolutely.
30:55 - And I interrupted your question; I'm
30:57 sorry. - No, no, no! That's okay! Well, you wanted
30:59 to finish the 3... - I wanted to do the 3-pronged...
31:00 - That's really important- those 3 prongs. - So, while
31:04 we're on that third prong still, I just want
31:06 to mention, Yvonne, I remember that day when
31:08 you had actually interviewed the founding members
31:10 of Coming Out Ministries, and that was at least
31:12 7 years ago. We had prayed and we had done
31:15 our testimonies and you were very gracious,
31:18 and as we were closing in prayer, you stepped
31:19 forward and you said, "Wait a minute. I believe
31:22 that the Holy Spirit says that there's more
31:25 on this topic to share," and that was when you
31:27 invited us back and we did a whole series.
31:30 - You did two seasons. - Yeah- over 50 programs!
31:34 - And those programs still help many individuals.
31:37 We carry them on our website and we go to
31:40 different trade shows, and they've helped a
31:42 lot of people. - Praise the Lord. And they're
31:44 on our YouTube channel! - Yes. - Pure Choices is
31:47 on our YouTube channel, so people can watch
31:51 and get equipped to deal with these situations.
31:55 So, we are so thankful that you guys stepped
31:57 up to the plate and knocked out all of those
31:59 programs like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
32:02 What a blessing. - It really was. - So, what
32:06 has been the- you come with truth, you come
32:13 with tools, you come with resources... What has
32:17 been the response to your ministry? - It's
32:21 been a lot of hot and a lot of cold. - Okay,
32:25 okay. [laughter] Tell us about both. - No
32:29 lukewarm in there? - Not much; not much. From
32:32 one aspect, a lot of churches are terrified
32:36 about the topic anyway, then I'm sure that
32:39 they're terrified that we're going to really
32:41 not do it in an appropriate and
32:43 spiritual sense. But once they hear us,
32:46 it's miraculous how, at the end of our
32:49 programs, people come up and they go, "Oh,
32:52 I wasn't even going to come," and, "I didn't
32:54 want anything to do with this thing, and
32:55 now that I've heard you, I realize that
32:58 it's not at all what I thought it was," and
33:00 that happens consistently every place that we go.
33:02 And what's even more beautiful is to see
33:05 that now, they're on board, so a lot of times,
33:07 we know that if we can at least just get them to
33:10 hear us that it makes a big difference. Then,
33:13 the other side is that we find that there are
33:16 churches now that have been exposed to the pro-gay
33:19 theology that's coming into the churches, so
33:22 without even giving us an opportunity, they've
33:24 already censored our material or censored
33:27 or message because we've been malaligned.
33:31 People have said that we're conversion therapists.
33:33 None of us have ever gone through any kind
33:36 of conversion therapy, and we even make it very
33:39 clear that that's not who we are, but this
33:42 movement is out there, communicating this message
33:44 of what we aren't, so people are just buying
33:47 that. So, it's very difficult to get into
33:49 those doors. We just got back from being
33:53 in Europe for a month, and this speaking
33:56 engagements that we went to had to be done
33:58 by independent ministries because the conferences
34:00 were not supportive, and even the conference
34:02 leaderships were actually speakers in
34:05 the pro-gay movement that is in our denomination,
34:07 so they're using what they call... What is that-
34:10 a service agreement? - Service request.
34:13 - Service request to actually censor from
34:16 keeping Coming Out Ministries, a Bible-based
34:18 ministry, from not only offering the truth,
34:21 but most importantly, offering compassion and
34:24 another option- another way out for people.
34:27 - Yes! There is a way out that you don't
34:30 have to stay in darkness. There's this
34:33 resistance of admitting that it's darkness.
34:38 But it is! It's like any other sin. It's
34:40 in darkness, and you guys are trying to
34:43 explain how to come out in a loving way.
34:48 - And this is something that really puzzles me,
34:50 because I came into our denomination-
34:55 I came into our faith- through the Bible,
34:57 throughout resources, in the writings of Ellen
34:59 White, Spirit of Prophecy- and it's amazing to
35:04 me when we find opposition- that
35:07 they're opposing the very message that brought
35:10 me into the church, because we're trying
35:13 to present what brought us into this church
35:16 and into Christ. And to find that the things that
35:20 worked for us, a community that's considered to be
35:23 unchangeable and unreachable, we're
35:26 presenting what worked, and it happens to be
35:28 our message. When I say, "our," I'm not
35:32 talking about Mike's and mine; I'm talking
35:33 about our faith. Our denominational
35:35 message is opposed by some of the leaders in
35:40 our own denomination. It's very puzzling and
35:43 very frustrating. However, we do
35:46 find opposition from time to time, but there's
35:51 always a silver lining on these clouds. I
35:53 had a woman come to me at one of my events,
35:56 and she confessed. She said, "I opposed your
35:58 coming. I've opposed it with the board. I've
36:01 sent out emails to everyone, telling
36:03 people not to come, but I was curious and
36:07 I came myself," and she said, "I am so glad I
36:10 came, and I am so sorry for what I had
36:12 done, because your message needs to be
36:15 heard." They come with these misconceptions
36:18 about the conversion therapy. We're about
36:21 conversion of the heart, because what
36:24 is left out of conversion therapy is the divine
36:28 miracle-working power of God! So, that's what
36:31 we're presenting. From a human standpoint,
36:34 you may be right. People cannot change. Well,
36:36 who can? - Right. - It is a miraculous work of
36:40 the Lord to bring us out of darkness into
36:43 His marvelous light. - That's the point, Ron,
36:45 that I think is really the shock of the pro-gay
36:51 movement that's within Christianity is that
36:53 what they've done is they've watered down
36:55 the power of Jesus Christ. We're not
36:57 talking about behavior modification and we're
36:58 not talking about what the world can offer
37:00 you. And you know what? From their standpoint,
37:02 we'd agree! "That's not going to work. Conversion
37:04 therapy's not going to work." And all the other
37:06 modalities that are out there being offered by
37:09 psychologists or whatever... We don't
37:11 support that, either! We're talking about
37:13 divine intervention. That's something that
37:15 the world can't offer you. That's something
37:17 that only Jesus Christ can. And when we
37:20 promote something other than that, then
37:23 the biggest message isn't that homosexuality
37:25 is okay by God; it's the fact that Jesus,
37:28 quite frankly, just doesn't have the power
37:29 to change you. And that, I think, is the most
37:32 alarming about the pro-gay movement in our
37:33 denomination. - You know, when people say,
37:35 "Oh, Ron, you're just denying who you really
37:37 are." I said, "Amen." [laughter] Exactly!
37:42 I am, by nature, a fallen human being, and Jesus
37:45 says, "Deny yourself." Of course I'm denying
37:48 myself! We're to present our body as a living
37:51 sacrifice. We're to be transformed by the renewing
37:54 of our minds. Of course we're denying who we
37:56 naturally are, because as we come to Jesus, we
38:01 become partakers of divine nature through
38:04 the exceeding great and precious promises of God.
38:06 Yes, you have to deny yourself in order to do
38:10 that and to be a new creature. I mean, why
38:12 hang onto that fallen being when we're
38:14 invited to be new creatures in Christ?
38:17 - Because sin is natural. Just being my natural
38:20 self. And it's interesting how the church now is
38:22 using the words of the world to promote the
38:25 worldly theology. - Well, see, the interesting
38:28 thing is in The Great Controversy-and I'm
38:30 paraphrasing-Ellen White says something about,
38:35 you wonder why we're not experiencing the
38:37 same amount of persecution that they experienced
38:40 back in the day. It's because there's so
38:42 much compromise. There's no need- why persecute
38:45 when you're going along with some of the things
38:47 of the world when there's so much compromise? - I
38:50 did want to insert one thing here because
38:52 we're talking about opposition: that we have
38:55 learned that, where the doors close, there
38:58 are more open ones. Someone told me-and
39:01 I forget who it was- but it was such a wise
39:03 comment. They said, "The Lord uses closed
39:06 doors to direct you in other paths you
39:09 should go." So, we don't worry about
39:11 doors closing, because we're booking 12 months
39:14 out. If this door closes, we have 3
39:17 more invitations while that one is closed. So,
39:20 why waste our time where the message is
39:22 going to be rejected and instead of going
39:26 to where people are saying, "Please come
39:28 and help"? - Of course, it breaks our heart
39:30 that any door shuts, because we think of
39:32 those individuals that are either going to be
39:34 left to believe a lie or not have access to
39:36 the truth. But you're right, Ron. We do. We
39:40 have to move the energy towards where the
39:41 doors are open. - And that's a positive
39:43 approach. It keeps us focused on opportunities
39:46 rather than rejection. We are very prone...
39:54 People that come from the gay culture-and
39:56 we can speak authoritatively on this because we've
39:58 been there-we all deal with a perception of
40:02 rejection. It's something we have to cope with
40:05 on a regular basis. So, we have to choose
40:08 not to feel rejected when doors close,
40:12 because our natural inclination is to think,
40:15 "Oh, poor, pitiful me; I'm being rejected
40:17 again." That's not it, because the Lord says,
40:19 "No, but look over here! We have other places
40:22 for you to go." - Right. Right. There are some
40:27 materials being circulated now within our church
40:31 that support the idea that it's okay to be
40:39 gay. And when I say that, it's not, again-
40:43 because I want to make sure that I'm understood
40:46 by anybody who's gay out there. That is your
40:51 struggle. Or if that is your lifestyle and
40:54 you don't feel like you're struggling,
40:55 that's where you want to be, God has a better
40:59 way-and it's all about love! It's not about
41:03 condemning you, judging you... God just
41:07 wants to give you more. He wants to give you a
41:09 better way! And what I found-and guys, tell
41:13 me if this is a misperception on my part. When I
41:19 listen to your testimonies, I've heard that when
41:22 you went into gay culture-just said,
41:26 "Okay, I'm just going to live this lifestyle,"
41:28 or whatever-what you found were other people
41:31 who just loved you as you were. They loved
41:34 you almost unconditionally. See, I think that that's
41:37 what we have to do as a church; let people
41:40 know we love you-but there is a better way!
41:44 - Amen. - One parent just mentioned something
41:47 in a text to me a couple of days ago and just
41:49 said, "I've been loving my neighbors that are
41:51 gay, and I really love them, and sometimes,
41:54 I'm exposed to things that I'm uncomfortable with.
41:56 Isn't there something more that I should be
41:59 doing?" And I wrote back and I just basically
42:01 gave her the example of what my sister did. I
42:04 worked in a hair salon with my lover and other
42:07 hairdressers that were gay. And my sister,
42:09 she loved us. Every single one of us, and
42:12 we said awful things. We cussed and swore
42:15 around my sister, but she always had a smile.
42:18 She invited my lovers and I over for holiday
42:20 meals. I thought that she accepted me and
42:22 my gay culture-no doubt about it. Even if I
42:25 misunderstood it, it still is showing me the
42:29 gospel, because then, when the Holy Spirit
42:31 did answer her prayers on my behalf, then it
42:34 was revealed to me what she had been living all
42:37 along. So, even when people say, "Well,
42:39 isn't there something more that I should be
42:41 doing if I'm loving my gay friends or neighbors
42:43 or relatives?" No! That's your job. That's
42:47 what we were told to do, to love our neighbors
42:49 as ourselves. Create a safety net so that the
42:51 Holy Spirit can do His work. And again, Ellen
42:55 White says that prayer moves the arm of
42:57 omnipotence. You need power that you don't
43:00 have. So, prayer is not something that's
43:02 like an afterthought; it should be our first
43:05 priority. And along with those prayers,
43:07 loving that individual, and I think, "Wow,
43:09 thank you, God, for making the gospel so
43:11 easy!" He said, "Love them and pray for them."
43:14 Right? - You mentioned the material being
43:18 circulated in our denomination about love and acceptance.
43:25 I would just want to put out this warning
43:28 to every Christian who is looking at this
43:29 program. We can love people down the broad
43:33 way to destruction. - Unpack that. - That's
43:37 what I call a 'cheap love,' like cheap grace.
43:39 That kind of love is a cop out. It's not
43:43 wanting to deal with the issues and present
43:48 a saving love. So, we can love people and
43:52 accept them and dialogue with them until the
43:55 Lord comes, and we find we've loved them
43:58 down the wrong path! But the kind of love
44:01 that Jesus has is a love that is sometimes
44:06 a tough love. He's a loving Heavenly Father,
44:09 all scripture is given by inspiration of God
44:11 and His profitable doctrine, teaching, for
44:15 reproof, for correction, for instruction. That's
44:19 not what we're seeing in this material! And
44:21 the Gospel Commission says, "We're to teach
44:23 all things, whatsoever He commanded us."
44:25 And so our approach is love, unconditional
44:30 love, but acceptance is into a school of
44:33 discipleship. And in that school of discipleship,
44:36 people must surrender. They must follow the
44:42 discipline of their master. There needs
44:45 to be a surrender of the will, there needs
44:48 to be a willingness to be transformed into
44:51 the image of God, because He is the
44:54 One that really knows what's best for us,
44:56 anyway. So, our approach goes beyond this love
44:59 and acceptance and dialogue that goes into
45:01 discipleship: mentoring, teaching victory over
45:07 sin, transformation of the character, becoming
45:09 like Christ. In other words, we try to love
45:12 people up the narrow way into life rather
45:15 than down the broad way to destruction.
45:18 - It's interesting, we say the same thing, and
45:20 yet the verse that comes to my mind is Isaiah
45:22 4:1. It talks about how 7 women take a
45:26 hold of one man and they say, "We'll wear
45:28 our own clothes and we'll eat our own
45:30 bread; only give us your name to save us
45:33 from reproach." And that's what I see as
45:36 the gay-approving theology that's going on in
45:39 Christianity. It's like, we're just going to
45:42 hold onto this love thing, and we'll discern
45:45 the scriptures the way we want to. And instead
45:47 of the robe of righteousness, we'll wear our own
45:49 robes, and only give us your name. "Christian,"
45:52 right? Here's the problem with that.
45:54 It's not gay-to-straight; it's lost-to-saved. By
45:58 hanging onto our old identities and the
46:01 natural identities of what we all struggle
46:05 with, or our natural inclinations, that's
46:07 not saved; that's lost. That's not love. - That's
46:12 right. That's good, because it is all
46:18 about being from lost to saved-for all of
46:22 us! - Jesus came to save us from our sins, so
46:27 we have to acknowledge this is a sin issue,
46:30 or there's no redemption. - That's right. - "Only
46:32 acknowledge your iniquity," He says,
46:34 "and I will heal your backsliding." - But
46:37 that's another issue. In the pro-gay theology,
46:40 it's like those are words of hate-to call
46:43 homosexuality a sin. And again, I think that
46:47 the Christian denomination is responsible for that
46:50 attitude in the gay culture, because we've
46:52 separated it out for so long and just thought
46:54 that homosexuality was the worst sin of
46:56 all, that we separated and said, "Well, they
46:58 can't be saved," so the gay community saw that
47:00 and said, "Well, great. Then we want equal
47:02 rights and we want the right to marry." But
47:05 again, putting sin back in its proper
47:08 place... We are all sinful, and we all
47:10 have issues that we're struggling with. Most
47:13 of them are usually related to sex. So,
47:16 when I look at 1 Corinthians chapter 6 and it
47:18 talks about all the abominations... Like,
47:20 man. It doesn't make me any better than
47:22 you, but it doesn't make you better than
47:24 me. We're all in this together, so, sorry.
47:27 Same-sex attraction IS a sin. That's what the
47:30 Bible says, but so is adultery, so is lust,
47:33 so is all the other things- - Fornication. - Yes!
47:35 All the other things that are going on in
47:36 the church, as well. - We create this hierarchy
47:38 of sins, so, homosexuality... "Oh, that's the worst
47:42 thing." We don't even look at lying, gossip,
47:46 and attitudes- covetousness and all that. So, we're
47:50 not even really looking at that. You know what
47:52 I mean? We just create this hierarchy. And the
47:54 bottom line is, we have to be able to
47:57 call sin what it is so that- it's like you
48:00 identify the problem so that you can identify
48:03 the solution. And Jesus is the solution! - Yep.
48:07 The only solution. - There are 3 sins we're
48:09 told that are especially offensive to God-
48:12 homosexuality NOT included. It's pride,
48:17 selfishness, and covetousness. I've
48:21 thought about this for a long time and I realized
48:23 why. These are the roots of all other sin.
48:27 These are the three sins that made a devil
48:30 out of Lucifer and broke the Savior's heart-
48:35 broke God's heart. So, you'll never kill a tree
48:39 by picking the fruit; you have to kill the
48:40 roots. Pride, selfishness, and covetousness are
48:43 sins that are not so easily detected in someone
48:46 else. Lucifer appeared to be working FOR
48:49 heaven and working FOR God while he was leading
48:53 a third of the angels of heaven into
48:54 apostasy. So, yes. Those are the three
48:57 especially offensive. - Wow. You talked about
49:01 your associate program. Explain that to us
49:05 a bit. - We have about a dozen now, I think.
49:09 Isn't it about 12 people that have filled out
49:13 applications to become a part of this ministry,
49:16 so we created an associate pathway,
49:19 because we don't want to just bring someone
49:21 in that has a testimony and they want to speak,
49:24 because we need to make sure they're well grounded.
49:26 Part of that pathway has 28 fundamental
49:35 beliefs! They need to go through that. We also
49:38 like for them to go through a program-
49:41 maybe like AFCOE or some Bible worker
49:43 training program where they learn to do public
49:46 speaking and evangelism and they're comfortable
49:48 and they're very well grounded in the gospel.
49:51 There are a number of other issues that we
49:55 need to make sure they are very, very clear
49:58 (related to our focus). So, we have people
50:03 going through this program, and some
50:06 are very close to coming on board. We're really
50:09 excited, because we have people from
50:11 different countries, different cultures,
50:13 different races, and different genders...
50:16 'Course, there are only two genders,
50:18 but I'm... - I'm glad you clarified that!
50:20 [laughter] - We need to clarify. Every gender
50:23 is from? So, we're looking at
50:27 a very diverse group developing- this ministry
50:33 becoming very diverse and very international.
50:35 - And we believe that that just defines the
50:37 ministry even better, because different aspects
50:40 of each person's testimony brings up
50:42 different aspects of the greatness of God and
50:46 in the restoration plan. So, for us, we really
50:49 are thrilled whenever we get to hear somebody
50:51 else's testimony or to work with somebody
50:53 who's brand new, coming into the ministry.
50:55 - And they're not just from the gay world,
50:58 as you mentioned. There are straight
51:01 people that have issues with sexuality and
51:04 so forth. So, we've got a broad spectrum
51:08 developing. - That's awesome. I know that
51:11 you are going to want to invite Coming Out
51:16 Ministries to come to your church or to
51:18 speak to your organization just to share what's
51:21 been going on with them and to share how
51:25 you, too, can overcome. Again, we're all in
51:30 this boat together; we're all sinners saved
51:32 by grace and we all have struggles. If we
51:37 don't, then we're not living on planet Earth.
51:39 We all have struggles. Let's take a look at
51:43 how you can get in touch with our brothers
51:47 here from Coming Out Ministries.
51:52 If you would like to find out more information
51:54 about Coming Out Ministries, visit their
51:56 website, ComingOutMinistries.org where you'll find DVDs,
52:01 books, and tracts. You'll also find access to
52:04 their special prayer line. That web address is
52:08 ComingOutMinistries.org. You may also call them
52:12 at area code (423) 248-5004,
52:18 or area code (870) 504-0173.
52:25 You may also write them at Coming Out Ministries
52:28 14914 North Liberty Road, Mount Vernon,
52:32 Ohio 43050.


Home

Revised 2021-08-16