Abortion Controversy, The

Braking the Silence: Dianne Wagner's Story -part 1

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Steve Wohlberg (Host), Diane Wagner

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Series Code: TAC

Program Code: TAC000001A


00:08 Do you know someone who has had an abortion?
00:10 Or perhaps that someone is you.
00:12 Do you know someone who has suffered unimaginable
00:15 pain and guilt because of abortion?
00:18 If so, there is good news right here,
00:21 there is hope and healing for you - so don't away.
00:52 Welcome to Part 1 of a 13-part series called:
00:55 "The Abortion Controversy"
00:56 We are going to be dealing with a topic that
00:58 many people just don't want to talk about;
01:00 they buried it so deep and it's hard to get it out,
01:03 but we're going to do it.
01:04 We're going to do it with hearts of love.
01:07 My guest, for the first program, is "Dianne Wagner."
01:10 She is a retired registered nurse' she is a mother of 4.
01:14 She is from North Carolina and she has had 2 abortions herself.
01:18 She has suffered more than I'll ever know,
01:19 or that you'll ever know, and yet she has found hope
01:22 and healing and she is here to share her story with you,
01:26 and with me.
01:28 Dianne, thank you. Thank you, and I want to
01:31 tell you what first interested me, really, in doing
01:37 this series with you, having you come,
01:38 and having Antoinette come later on, and it started
01:41 with a friend that was sending me literature and books,
01:46 and information in the mail, and by email,
01:48 just really encouraging me to get involved in this topic.
01:52 And, I'm a busy man, I have a lot of things to do
01:54 with my wife, my kids, the ministry.
01:56 And, I just kept, you know, it wasn't really
01:58 on the front burner, but then I was sent a link to
02:04 your talk and Antoinette Duck's talk at ASI,
02:09 at a big church convention.
02:10 And, I was in Oregon, in a hotel on Saturday night,
02:15 and I had some free time, and I took out my phone,
02:18 and I found a link on my phone,
02:20 and I listened to your entire talk, your story.
02:23 And I tell you, Dianne, I was so... I just want to
02:25 hold your hand... I was so moved by listening
02:29 to what you had to say, and what Antoinette had to say,
02:31 that it just brought me over the line.
02:33 Praise the Lord.
02:35 And I thought, we have got to do a series on this,
02:38 and bring you here.
02:40 So here we are and the time is yours,
02:43 we'll bounce back and forth, but tell us what's on your heart.
02:46 Well, I love the title "Breaking the Silence,"
02:49 because one thing I've learned is that people
02:51 are silent about this issue, and they are afraid to speak out...
02:56 And a lot of times, the reason they're afraid to speak out
02:59 is because they're afraid they are going to hurt somebody
03:01 who has had an abortion.
03:03 And I was one of those ladies who has had the abortion,
03:07 and no one talked about it,
03:09 no one knew how to talk about it.
03:11 And I'm one of many; in fact, since 1973
03:15 or between 1973 and 2011, there were 53 million abortions,
03:21 induced abortions in this country.
03:23 ... 53 million
03:25 And that's just up until 2011, it's estimated that it's up to
03:30 57 million now.
03:32 And correct me if I'm wrong, but that's just in America.
03:34 That's in America, that's correct.
03:36 Wow, we're dealing with a huge topic.
03:37 It's a big issue, it is, and, you know, as I looked
03:40 into it, I realized 21% of all pregnancies in this country
03:45 will end in an induced abortion.
03:48 And, half of American women will have an unintended,
03:53 not planned, pregnancy by the age of 45. Half - wow...
03:57 And 4 out of 10 of those pregnancies will be terminated
04:01 by abortion.
04:02 I thought that was very sobering and then
04:05 half of those ladies have already had one abortion already
04:10 which is very sobering.
04:12 Now, I thought, well who are these people?
04:15 Who are - who are the people who are having these abortions?
04:18 Well, 18% are teenagers, 57% are in their 20s,
04:24 44% are college-age kids which I thought was amazing,
04:29 37% are Protestant and 28% have a Catholic background.
04:35 Of those who are having abortion in America. That's right
04:38 I mean, that's more than half, that's just a shocking statistic
04:44 So what you're saying is based on the numbers,
04:47 that more than half of the abortions in America
04:51 are occurring with women that have
04:54 a religious background. Exactly...
04:57 Protestant or Catholic...
04:59 That's right, it's not just "out there,"
05:01 it's in our church. It's in the churches as well.
05:03 It sounds like the divorce rate, too, I've heard
05:06 or read, it's similar to what is happening in the secular society
05:10 and in the church, the divorce rate is the same.
05:12 So the abortion numbers are right there too.
05:15 That's right, that's right, and you know, I was one of them.
05:18 I was brought up in a Seventh-day Adventist home,
05:22 and I went to the church school, and was a Pathfinder,
05:25 went to summer camp, loved summer camp.
05:27 Worked in summer camp, and went through the academy,
05:30 and have great memories of band trips and choir trips,
05:34 you know - temperance rallies and Bible conferences...
05:37 I loved it all.
05:38 In fact, it was in academy that
05:39 I gave my heart to Jesus at 15... 15
05:42 I loved the experience, and now, college was
05:45 harder for me because it was during the college years
05:48 that my parents divorced, and I experienced the prejudice
05:53 and the inconsistencies within this church
05:56 that I loved so much.
05:57 And, I'll be honest with you, I had to step back...
06:00 I had to reevaluate my position with the church...
06:04 You know, is God here? Is this where the Lord wants me?
06:07 Was I just growing up in some enchanted
06:10 Seventh-day Adventist bubble while growing up,
06:14 and now here's the cruel reality?
06:16 So you found out that the Adventist Church,
06:18 like other churches, is not a perfect church.
06:21 Exactly, exactly, and so by the time...
06:24 you know, I was engaged to be married
06:27 to my college sweetheart, the Lord had
06:29 had answered my questions.
06:31 And my husband-to-be and myself, we both wanted to have
06:35 a Seventh-day Adventist home, and we wanted to have a
06:37 Christian home, of course.
06:39 And I knew the Lord had anointed my church,
06:42 and I knew the Lord had a high calling for this church,
06:46 so I recommitted myself to it.
06:49 But now, with that said, 6 months before my wedding day,
06:53 I found out that I was pregnant.
06:55 And you told me that you messed up - you can say... One time.
07:00 One time and that one time was enough,
07:02 and then you discovered... oh my,
07:05 there's a baby inside me.
07:07 That's right - that didn't matter.
07:08 I had blown it, and I was embarrassed to death.
07:11 I was shamed, I just panicked, my life became a blur.
07:16 I know I called my mother, but I don't remember
07:19 a thing she said, and I called my fiancée;
07:22 don't remember a thing he said.
07:26 It's like amnesia, you just...
07:27 Panic, it's absolutely panic.
07:30 Blacked it out or just couldn't even remember.
07:31 Your life was in a whirlwind.
07:34 Scared to death, but the hospital that I was working at,
07:37 because I was a traveling nurse at the time,
07:39 they required x-rays on the lower back.
07:42 So I had had a series of x-rays on my back...
07:45 And that was before you knew that you were pregnant.
07:47 Before I knew I was pregnant.
07:48 And the tech had asked me if there was any way
07:51 or any chance you might be pregnant,
07:52 and I told her, No."
07:54 And of course, that just made it all the worse,
07:57 more embarrassed, more reason to be embarrassed,
07:59 because I should have, you know, known.
08:02 Well, the x-rays concerned me, so I called different physicians
08:07 that I had been working with, and everyone of them...
08:11 I asked them, "If I were your wife,
08:13 what would you want me to do?"
08:14 And every single one of them said, "Abort."
08:16 They would want her to abort the pregnancy.
08:19 And that's because of the x- rays...
08:21 That's right, and none of them referred to it as a
08:24 child or your baby - it was just "that pregnancy,
08:26 get rid of THAT pregnancy." ...terminate the pregnancy...
08:30 So I promptly turned around and called the abortion clinic
08:33 and found out how much it cost how far along I had to be,
08:37 and I set an appointment. Excuse me.
08:41 And that's what I did, and when I got to the clinic,
08:46 there was a counselor there that we were supposed to talk to.
08:50 And you were 25... I was 25 and scared to death.
08:55 I... I... there's, I can't even begin to describe to you
08:59 the fear and panic - it's a very bad situation.
09:04 Well this counselor, she wasn't a Christian,
09:07 but she was sympathetic, and she assured me
09:09 that at that time, it was just a fuzz ball.
09:12 And, I was a nurse and I had studied plenty, you know,
09:16 anatomy and physiology, but it never occurred to me
09:19 to question that.
09:21 In fact, I was so afraid and so panicked,
09:25 and looking back at it, I realize it even more because
09:28 I consented to have this procedure done without
09:31 even any anesthesia... Oh wow
09:33 which was a nightmare.
09:34 The pain was so bad, I lost consciousness.
09:38 And, it was just a very bad situation.
09:43 So, after it was over, you do feel a sense of relief,
09:50 but it's very brief... for me it was very brief.
09:53 And the fact, the reality of what I had done was harrowing.
09:59 Now when you say, "The reality of what you had done,"
10:01 did you have the sober moments that were then coming to you
10:07 once you got on the other side of the initial feelings of
10:12 relief, that you were starting to realize that it was a child
10:17 that you had done this to? Sure!
10:19 A pregnancy means a child.
10:20 So it wasn't a fuzz ball. No
10:22 And then as time went on, you realized
10:24 this was more than a fuzz ball. Yes
10:25 You knew too much about the body and about
10:28 the developmental process, and later on we're going to go
10:30 into the details about what really happens... Right
10:34 So it was very bad - I hated myself.
10:37 I had anger towards my husband, and neither one of us knew
10:43 what was going on.
10:46 And something died inside of me that day,
10:50 and it had an impact on me that would affect every aspect
10:54 of my life - it was profound.
10:57 So, I hated myself, and I started punishing myself.
11:05 I remember, one night, I got up and got the scissors
11:09 cut off all my hair, really short - stubs.
11:15 My husband didn't know - I don't even think he realized,
11:19 or really know he didn't realize all this had to do
11:22 with the abortion.
11:23 And, there were times when I would go into the bathroom
11:26 and I would sit on the toilet and I would take a razor
11:30 and I would run that razor up the inside of my arm.
11:32 And I can remember sitting there and just watching
11:35 the blood - I had never heard of cutting.
11:38 You know now, they talk about
11:40 kids cutting themselves and stuff. Right
11:42 And, as I look at it, I had so much pain on the inside,`
11:48 but on the outside, I was numb,
11:50 and it was like I needed to feel pain.
11:53 I needed to feel like I was still alive.
11:56 It was very strange.
11:57 And did you connect at that point,
12:01 that this - what you were doing, cutting off your hair,
12:04 and cutting your arm, that that was connected to
12:06 the abortion or did you not really get that yet?
12:09 You know, it's strange because I don't think I did completely.
12:13 I was just very, very unhappy, very insecure.
12:19 I had an incredible feeling of unworthiness.
12:22 You know, I was just dead.
12:25 I had... I was just... I had froze up.
12:28 The sad thing about that is... about that time
12:31 I found out I was pregnant again.
12:33 Now this was after my husband and I, we had been married.
12:36 This was still within the year though.
12:38 And, I already knew I was not fit to be a mother.
12:42 I was... like I said, I hated myself.
12:46 Were you still, at that point, were you still going to church,
12:50 after you had married, and now you're into
12:52 your second pregnancy, and you were going to church,
12:56 ... yes... you were listening to sermons,
12:57 and yet, evidently it still wasn't...
13:01 the sermons or whatever you were hearing
13:02 wasn't penetrating you enough to really deal with your
13:04 root issue that was simmering and destroying you.
13:09 No, I had buried it pretty deep.
13:12 You know, my husband was in dental school at the time,
13:14 and no one knew... no one knew it was very deep at that time,
13:20 and so when we - when I found out I was pregnant again,
13:25 I knew I wasn't fit to be a mother, like I said,
13:28 and so I made the appointment.
13:30 I lied about how far along I was - I wasn't quite,
13:33 you know, far along enough, but this time we did get the
13:37 anesthesia because the pain is so very bad.
13:39 So you went back to a clinic.
13:41 We went back to another clinic and the first time I had it,
13:45 I cried, I was very afraid and the physician that was there
13:50 held me - he hugged me, but after I passed out
13:53 the second time, this was the first abortion, he got mad.
13:57 Well this time, the second abortion,
14:00 I didn't have any tears, I had no emotion.
14:04 I just went in, I listened to a little speech
14:06 that you were supposed to hear, and had it done.
14:09 And at this point, you had not had any children yet, right?
14:11 No, no - No, I wasn't fit at that time, I felt I wasn't fit.
14:15 So, this baby that had been taken was taken
14:22 mercilessly from the security of my womb and my identity
14:27 was being stripped mercilessly from my soul.
14:30 I was becoming more and more of an empty existing...
14:34 you gotta exist... people around you
14:36 don't have a clue what you're carrying on inside.
14:40 So, you continue to exist...
14:44 And you told me that you reached out - you started to...
14:48 you found out something about some potential help.
14:50 I did, in fact, one of the things I struggled with
14:53 that really got a hold of me after the second abortion...
14:56 The first abortion I dealt with bulimia a little bit,
15:00 but after my second one, it got me full grip.
15:03 And bulimia, you know, is an eating disorder where you
15:06 just stuff yourself with food until you just can't
15:10 stuff anymore down and then you purge - you vomit,
15:14 you just vomit all over the place,
15:16 and it's just... it is a good feeling!
15:19 It's like you're up and out.
15:21 You know, it's like the pain coming out with cutting,
15:23 except this is the pain coming up and out...
15:27 And, at the time, I didn't realize what I needed
15:30 was a redemptive purge.
15:32 I need to be able to get up all this pain
15:35 and have the healing of a redeeming Savior,
15:38 you know, something that would come and take all my pain,
15:41 and replace it with something that was real, that would last.
15:46 Well, you know, the bulimia only just brought more shame,
15:50 and it brought more secrecy.
15:52 You have food hidden everywhere and you spend money...
15:55 And, you know, I told you my husband was in school,
15:57 we were poor.
15:58 So, to be spending money on food like that
16:01 just put more of a stress on the relationship, especially when
16:04 it's done in secrecy, so it was a very hard time.
16:10 Now here I was, a new bride,
16:12 and all the joys of being a new bride
16:15 were being taken away from me.
16:17 I couldn't sleep at night and I was very depressed.
16:20 And, I finally went to a therapist and she gave me
16:24 the sleeping pills and she gave me the pills for depression,
16:27 but she never took a history.
16:29 She never tried to find out what was at the
16:31 root of this problem which is very unfortunate.
16:36 But, so eventually I just stopped taking the pills,
16:40 kind of gave up - it was just
16:42 not really taking care of the problem.
16:44 And thank God you didn't decide
16:46 to take too many pills... Take all of them...
16:48 It was only by the grace of God that I'm sitting here... Wow
16:51 That's by God's grace.
16:54 And then, the other thing is our marriage
16:57 was just falling apart and we loved each other.
17:00 We've loved each other since college.
17:01 So, you know, we wanted help, and we went to a marriage
17:04 counselor and, after meeting with us one time,
17:08 she told us that she didn't think our
17:10 marriage could be saved which was devastating...
17:13 And she never asked us if we had ever had a miscarriage,
17:16 or stillbirth or an abortion because these type
17:21 situations can put all kinds of pressure and play havoc
17:25 with the relationship.
17:27 It's an unresolved issue that needs to be addressed.
17:29 So we left that and everything
17:34 seemed pretty - pretty dismal, yes, and it was hopeless.
17:43 There, for a while, it was very, very depressing,
17:44 and one night I remember scraping up the courage
17:46 to call a 1-800 hot line number.
17:50 I had heard an advertisement on the radio
17:52 about women who had had abortion and there was hope.
17:55 You know, it sounded good.
17:56 It sounded good. Right!
17:57 And so I wrote down that 1-800 number
17:59 and that night, I hid in the washroom by myself,
18:04 I remember exactly where I was and I called that number.
18:07 And the woman answered, and I told her my story,
18:11 and she - the first thing she said was...
18:14 "Well you know abortion is murder, don't you?"
18:18 It just took me off guard, there was no grace, no mercy,
18:22 no kindness even in that response,
18:25 so I hung up the phone.
18:27 I just totally... it just messed me up!
18:31 Well then just maybe 2 weeks later one of the girls
18:34 I worked with asked me if I wanted to come and join them
18:37 for church, so David and I, we did.
18:41 The next Sunday, we went to church with them,
18:45 and their preacher was speaking on abortion... Oh wow
18:49 And he was very loud and very animated,
18:52 and he just got louder and louder and finally
18:55 with this burst of proclamation he declared that
19:00 the Lord would not and could not forgive a woman
19:03 who had had an abortion.
19:05 And, I can remember sitting out in the congregation,
19:09 and it's like - that man confirmed right then and there
19:13 every reason I had for hating myself, and every reason
19:17 I had for thinking there was no hope for me... Wow
19:21 So, it was a long time after that
19:24 before I reached out to anybody again.
19:26 That's when I just really sucked it up,
19:30 you know, and didn't say anything.
19:32 Let's move in... we only have so much time
19:35 in this first segment - we've got more coming.
19:37 But, let's move into how you began to discover
19:41 that there was hope for you.
19:43 Well, the bulimia did continue.
19:47 You know, the life of survival continued...
19:50 Six years it was before I got help,
19:53 and I had 3 children at the time.
19:56 My husband and I were in trouble.
19:59 My sister said she had a friend she wanted me to go see,
20:02 and I did - I went to this woman and she had a ministry.
20:06 And, I really didn't know - have any particular
20:10 reason for going, but she was very kind and discerning,
20:13 and she brought me to the feet of Jesus.
20:15 And I was so beaten down, I didn't even know how to pray.
20:18 Did you talk about the abortion with her?
20:20 Not initially, she gained my confidence.
20:22 She was so kind to me, and so interested in me
20:26 that she first gained my confidence.
20:28 And she was so kind, that before I left,
20:31 I really felt compelled like I wanted to share that with her.
20:34 And I did, and she took it very serious,
20:37 you know, she didn't take it lightly.
20:41 And she called it a sin and that I needed to confess that sin,
20:47 and acknowledge it as a sin. Really...
20:50 And so she took me back to the feet of Jesus.
20:53 But that didn't make you want to run away... No
20:57 Not in that case... Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
21:00 The preacher, you know, thumping - that made me run,
21:04 and the 800 line, but not this lady.
21:06 It was like, "thank you."
21:09 So we knelt and she prayed and I prayed,
21:12 and that night, I confessed the sin of abortion.
21:15 You did... Yeah, I confessed out loud,
21:18 praying with this woman and asked Jesus to forgive me.
21:22 And it was the beginning of a journey that I wish
21:29 had been shorter, which we will get into,
21:31 but it was the first steps, and it made a huge
21:34 difference in my life.
21:35 That night, as a physical demonstration of
21:37 the Lord's healing, He took my bulimia away,
21:41 and I really believe He physically did that so that
21:44 later - months and years to come,
21:46 I would have assurance that the Lord had forgiven me
21:49 because when you still feel pain and misery,
21:52 it's easy to doubt the Lord's forgiveness,
21:55 but I knew He had forgiven me and I hung on to that.
21:59 That was the beginning... That was - yes.
22:01 So I'm just to zero in on this...
22:03 So it was the realization through the woman that
22:07 helped you with a loving heart, Absolutely!
22:10 that you had, she said, "Committed a sin,"
22:13 and your acceptance of that and recognition of that,
22:17 and then actually verbally saying that to God, right?
22:22 You opened your mouth and you confessed that. I did.
22:24 Because a lot of people I know, and we're going to
22:26 talk about this more - that the issue of,
22:28 "Is abortion a sin or not," we're going to get into that
22:31 more - what's really going on with what's inside the body...
22:35 Is it really a person or is it just a fuzz ball...
22:38 But anyway, just for in your case, it was the recognition
22:43 that you had done wrong, had committed a sin
22:46 within the context of someone that cared about you,
22:49 and acknowledging that, that opened the door
22:52 for God to really work and for you to start
22:56 experiencing His forgiveness and His grace, is that right?
23:00 Yes, His power - it was an incredible life-changing night,
23:05 and even though the journey was not going to be easy
23:09 right off, it absolutely gave me courage to continue to
23:13 exist because at that point, I was exhausted,
23:17 and I did want to run away from it all.
23:18 That's why my sister sent me to her, because she knew
23:21 I was on the brink and I know the Lord put her in my life...
23:26 And I was so glad that she was secure enough that she could
23:29 say, "Call it a sin, but yet be so completely
23:34 confident in the Lord's ability to forgive... His grace.
23:39 There's a verse in Jeremiah 3:11 where God told Israel...
23:44 He said, "Only acknowledge your sin," be willing to confess that
23:49 And then He said, "I am married to you; return oh backsliding
23:54 children, says the Lord."
23:55 And that God still loved Israel, He loves us, He loves you,
23:58 He loves me, He loves us all, but we do have to...
24:00 we have to own up to what we've done and that is part of the
24:05 healing process, and if we short circuit that,
24:08 we're not really going to find the mercy and the grace,
24:11 and the love and the forgiveness of God.
24:13 And, you know, God's forgiveness is real, it's very powerful,
24:16 I've experienced it myself, it's changed my life, too.
24:19 So, wow... anymore? We have a little bit of time
24:22 ... another 5 minutes.
24:24 I just wanted to really stress the importance
24:29 that this woman had in my life because she
24:31 validated what was bringing me down,
24:35 and she validated it because she called it "sin."
24:38 You know, so many times, we try to soft-pedal
24:42 part of being sensitive...
24:43 you know, part of the trying - we don't want to hurt someone.
24:47 And certainly we need to use wisdom and tact,
24:50 and God's wisdom...
24:51 That's where the pastor and the Help-line didn't help you.
24:54 They called it "sin," but grace wasn't there.
24:58 The grace wasn't there...
25:00 And the love wasn't there, and the mercy wasn't there.
25:02 That's right, and, and...
25:03 And you ran from that...
25:05 I did, and I see more and more there is a change,
25:07 you know, that even the pro-life movement,
25:10 initially, they were just all about the baby,
25:12 all about the baby and would walk all over the mother.
25:14 And now, they're realizing the mother has value
25:18 just as much as that baby.
25:20 And so now, they are approaching both of them.
25:23 And they are making a big difference;
25:25 David Reardon has made a big impact.
25:27 Who is David Reardon?
25:29 He is one of the advocates for abortion,
25:32 not promoting abortion, but opposing abortion,
25:36 and post-abortive stress and trauma.
25:40 And I was really glad to hear him say that - - how it's not
25:43 all about the baby, it's that baby and her mother,
25:46 and even, you know, other people who are involved,
25:50 father if he is there.
25:53 So people in all camps need... we have a lot to learn.
25:57 Absolutely, that's why I'm so glad we're breaking
25:59 the silence on this issue... And, you're talking
26:01 about it well... And thank you, thank you.
26:03 Sure, we hope, our hope and prayer is that you're
26:05 testimony and Antoinette's testimony, when she comes,
26:07 that this is all just going to open up the floodgates
26:11 of emotion and people are going to break the silence.
26:15 They're going to come out, they're going to talk,
26:16 and that the talking and looking at the Bible in a balanced way,
26:20 and looking to God and to Jesus, that it's going to result
26:23 in tremendous healing and just waves of goodness
26:27 which, I mean there's a lot of women and men...
26:29 We'll talk about the men's issue too later on. Absolutely
26:30 That a lot of us are hurting, people are hurting on all sides,
26:34 and people need the Healer.
26:36 Jesus said, in the book of Luke 4:18,
26:41 Jesus said that "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me
26:44 because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel,
26:49 the good news to the poor. He has sent Me to heal
26:51 the brokenhearted and to proclaim
26:55 liberty to the captives and the recovery of sight
26:59 to those who are blind, and to proclaim the acceptable
27:03 year of the Lord."
27:05 God knows what we've done, He knows anything
27:07 that we've ever done and no matter how deep or dark
27:09 our sin and pain and guilt, Jesus is a healer.
27:14 He opens the eyes of the blind and He can heal the
27:16 brokenhearted and He can heal you in your life
27:18 whatever has ever happened to you.
27:20 And our hope is that you will discover that healing power
27:23 through the series "The Abortion Controversy"
27:27 Dianne Wagner and Antoinette Duck share
27:30 powerful life-changing information in this
27:32 13-part series "The Abortion Controversy"
27:35 To order this 6-1/2 hour DVD set for only $34.95,
27:40 call 1-800-782-4253
27:43 That's 1-800-782-4253
27:47 Or, you can write to the following:
27:53 Or, order online at whitehorsemedia.com


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Revised 2015-08-06