Participants:
Series Code: SCM
Program Code: SCM180012A
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00:41 Welcome to the 3ABN Spring Camp Meeting:
00:44 The Three Angels' Messages. 00:49 Again we bid you good morning. 00:52 You know you almost want to say good morning and happy Sabbath, 00:55 but it is not quite Sabbath yet. 00:58 This is the day prior to the Sabbath - 01:04 the Preparation Day - 01:06 and we are preparing our hearts to meet the Lord 01:09 in a very special way on tomorrow. 01:11 But again, Shelley Quinn did such a very fine job - 01:15 Amen! and we praise the Lord for that 01:18 powerful and impressive message 01:22 that was filled with the Spirit of God. 01:24 In the second hour we have a very good friend 01:27 of this ministry, and that is Pastor Steve Wohlberg 01:31 who is speaker/director of White Horse Media 01:35 and has been doing such a very very fine job. 01:38 When last we saw Steve - and this is no secret - 01:41 he was going through a particularly ferocious attack 01:44 of the enemy. He was losing sleep; 01:47 losing weight; going through panic attacks, 01:50 anxiety. A number of things were happening 01:52 in his life that originally could not be diagnosed. 01:57 But you know, we serve a good God. Amen! 01:59 We serve a powerful God; we serve a healing God. 02:01 And when I saw him a few moments ago I said: 02:04 "Praise the Lord, you've put on a little weight. " 02:07 And he gladly admitted that he had. 02:10 For most of us that is not a good thing. 02:11 For him it was. 02:14 And he's gotten a little fairer... just a little fatter. 02:18 And we praise the Lord for it. 02:19 He is the husband of one wife: Kristen, 02:22 and he has two wonderful children that he dotes on: 02:25 Seth and Abigail. And we watched them sort of grow up 02:28 here at 3ABN. So together they make a formidable tool 02:32 in the hand of God for the salvation of the souls 02:35 of men and women. 02:37 Steve is going to pick up pretty much where Shelley left off 02:41 and follow in the train of thought. 02:42 His subject is: The Smoke of Their Torment. 02:47 So you see he follows in the same train 02:50 and in the same scheme. Already my sister has 02:53 has called me from Buffalo, NY, and she said: 02:55 "I want a copy of everything! " 02:58 Amen! So I am remanded to get a tape, or rather a CD, 03:01 of everything so that she can have them. 03:03 And that may be a good thing for you, too. 03:05 Because a lot of information is coming and it's coming fast, 03:08 it's coming furious. And you cannot get it all 03:11 on the first pass. You need to listen to it again and again. 03:14 Sort of sit down and sort of wade through it 03:17 very slowly because a lot of very good 03:19 very pertinent information is coming 03:21 vis-à-vis the three angels' messages. 03:24 So we want to thank you for being here. 03:26 We want to welcome our in-house audience which has grown 03:30 since last evening and we suspect will grow 03:34 during the course of the day. And of course we want to welcome 03:36 our audience by way of television or radio 03:41 or Internet. My sister is a computer person 03:44 and watches everything on her computer. 03:46 So I know she's watching on the computer. 03:48 And she says: "I'm not leaving the house! 03:50 I may not even get dressed. I just may just... 03:53 just stay in my bathrobe all day and watch, 03:56 watch, watch. And just leave to go to the kitchen, 03:59 get some food, and then come back to the computer. 04:01 And there are many who do that. 04:04 A friend of mine, they call it a stinky day. 04:06 She and her husband... She said: "We get up, we brush our teeth, 04:09 and that's it. Then we're in front of the television set 04:11 all day long. Well, we don't suggest that 04:14 necessarily 04:16 but we do want you to be part of this experience. 04:18 And if you're in the area and can get here, 04:21 please do get here. 04:22 Our special music is coming from 04:25 Celestine Barry-Dickens and her daughter Farrah. 04:31 This is a mother and daughter team 04:33 that are doing such a very very fine job for the Lord. 04:36 They are going to sing 04:38 and then the next voice that you will hear 04:41 will be that of our friend Pastor Steve Wohlberg. 04:46 He of White Horse Media. Shall we pray? 04:48 Father God, we take now this moment to call upon You. 04:52 We recognize Your presence; we understand Your power. 04:56 We know the goodness of Your Word. 04:59 Please, dear Father, be the invited guest 05:02 but in a special way be the teacher. 05:06 Speak to Steve and then be pleased 05:10 to speak through him to us 05:13 who need to hear a word from the Lord. 05:17 We praise You and thank you, dear Father, 05:19 for your goodness, Your grace, and Your promise to hear 05:23 the prayer of faith. In Jesus' name, Amen. 05:54 I lift my eyes when I am troubled. 06:02 I lift my hands; I lift my heart. 06:10 And there I stand knowing nothing can defeat me 06:16 just as long as I know 06:20 where You are. 06:23 In You alone 06:27 is where I find my comfort. 06:32 And You alone... 06:35 You're my only hope. 06:40 In You alone 06:42 my soul has found a resting place... 06:48 in You alone... 06:51 in You alone. 06:57 So I won't fear though darkness hides me. 07:05 No, I won't let my courage sway. 07:13 For You are near 07:16 and at the brightness of Your glory 07:20 the shadows of the night 07:23 melt away! 07:27 In You alone 07:30 is promise I can cling to. 07:35 In You alone 07:38 You're my security. 07:42 In You alone 07:45 my soul has found a dwelling place... 07:52 only in You alone. 08:00 What could separate me 08:03 from Your love? 08:07 Neither life nor death 08:10 nor anything at all... 08:14 anything at all. 08:19 In You alone 08:21 is where I find my comfort. 08:26 In You alone 08:29 You're my only hope. 08:34 In You alone 08:37 my heart has found a resting place. 08:43 Only in You 08:46 alone... 08:51 Only in You 08:54 alone... 08:59 Only in You 09:04 alone! 09:14 Amen! 09:18 Thank you. 09:20 All right. Well, praise the Lord! 09:24 Good morning everyone. Good morning! 09:26 God is good. All the time! 09:29 Ah, thank you Lord Jesus that I'm here. 09:31 What a blessing. 09:32 Just yesterday I drove to Spokane, Washington, 09:37 and parked at the airport. And parked on the third floor 09:41 of the big parking garage which I park at many times. 09:44 And I'll confess that sometimes since I travel a lot 09:49 I sometimes forget where I park. 09:53 So as I was walking out of my car and I noticed 09:56 third floor I thought: "OK, now how am I going to remember this? 09:59 Third floor. " And then I thought: "Oh, that's easy! 10:03 I'm going to 3ABN 10:05 and I'm talking about the three angels' messages 10:08 so this is very easy. " 10:10 Praise the Lord! Amen! Oh, God is good. 10:14 C.A. Murray mentioned that I've had some trials in my life 10:19 but the Lord has brought me through. 10:20 Amen! Praise His name... God is so good. 10:23 So I'm thrilled to be here and thrilled to build on 10:26 that last presentation. Shelley, I see you out there. 10:29 That was a masterpiece - Amen - of information. 10:33 I was listening on my phone on the way here 10:36 and they were looking for me. "Where is Steve? " 10:39 And I was in the back there listening to Shelley. 10:41 So Dee came back and was in a panic. 10:44 "Where is he? " "Oh... you're here. " 10:46 And I just praise the Lord... that was wonderful. 10:51 All right. If you have your Bibles I invite you to open up 10:53 to Revelation chapter 14. 10:55 We are building on the three angels' messages. 11:03 I have another confession to make: I left my regular glasses, 11:06 my preaching glasses, in our studio 11:08 in North Idaho, so I've got my Dollar Store glasses. 11:13 My reading glasses... but they'll have to do. 11:17 My topic - as you've probably seen - 11:21 is one little phrase in the third angel's message 11:27 which is in verse 11 11:29 talking about the smoke... "the smoke of their torment. " 11:35 That is my topic. Wow! 11:38 So that's something... 11:42 Somebody else had the everlasting gospel 11:45 and I've got the torment text. 11:51 But, you know, we need to talk about this. 11:53 So I'm going to build on top of what Shelley has just shared. 11:57 So let's pray another prayer and pray for God's blessing. 12:02 Heavenly Father, thank you so much that I can be here 12:06 at 3ABN. That we're all here 12:10 and we have a chance to be part of a movement... 12:13 a movement of God. Sharing and teaching and 12:16 preaching the three angels' messages around the world. 12:18 So we pray that during this time 12:21 that again Your Holy Spirit will be here and bless with power. 12:26 Please help me as I dive into Your Word. 12:30 In the name of Jesus Christ we pray, Amen. Amen! 12:34 Amen. OK... the smoke of their torment. 12:39 That's what verse 11 says: "The smoke of their torment 12:45 ascends up forever and ever 12:48 and they have no rest day or night who worship the beast 12:51 and his image and whoever receives the mark of his name. " 12:56 Now the first thing I want to say is that this is 12:58 a very serious verse. 13:01 It's very real and it is going to happen 13:05 to those who get the mark of the beast. 13:07 And so we need to make sure that we are on Jesus' side 13:11 and that we don't get that mark. 13:14 That's for sure. 13:15 Now next point is that this verse 13:19 about smoke ascending up forever and ever 13:22 is often used - as Shelley so eloquently spoke of 13:29 just a little bit ago - is often used 13:31 to support the idea that people will burn 13:36 at the end of time. And many people believe that 13:40 they're burning now and that they will continue to burn. 13:44 Those who are lost will burn and burn and burn 13:46 and burn and burn and burn and burn 13:48 and never stop burning 13:50 and their smoke will be rising up for all eternity. 13:54 Let me just tell you a little story. 13:57 Many of you know this: that I did not grow up a Christian. 13:59 I grew up in a Jewish home in southern California. 14:02 My family: we never read the Bible, we never prayed. 14:05 I was a lost teenager 14:08 involved in drugs and all kinds of crazy things. 14:10 When I was about 19 I began to run into Christians 14:14 who began to witness to me in strange places 14:16 and plant seeds. 14:18 And I think I was 20 years old. I was in Los Angeles 14:21 and I had a job down there. And I had actually just started 14:25 reading the Bible because of the different Christians 14:28 that had been witnessing to me. 14:30 So I found a Bible; I started reading one day 14:32 in a break that I had from my job. 14:35 And this man walked up to me - 14:37 a black man, a young man - 14:39 and he said: "What are you reading? " 14:42 And I said: "I'm reading the Bible. 14:44 Have you ever read this book? It's very interesting. " 14:46 And he said: "Yes I have. " 14:49 He said: "My name is Michael. " 14:50 And he introduced himself, told me he was studying for 14:53 the ministry and wanted to know if I would like to come 14:56 to church with him sometime. 14:58 So I had actually never been to church... 15:01 to a Christian church before. 15:03 So I gave him my phone number. Sometime later he called me up 15:06 and we connected. And I drove from Studio City 15:10 all the way down to downtown Los Angeles 15:13 on Slauson Avenue. Still remember it. 15:15 And one Sunday morning walked into an all-black Baptist 15:18 church. I was the only white person there. 15:21 And it was very noticeable that I was there. 15:26 And the pastor... I still remember him. 15:29 His name was Pastor Harper. 15:32 Got acquainted with me and after church 15:35 he invited me to his house. 15:37 So I went over to his house. 15:38 And we talked for a while and he was interested in me... 15:42 good, nice man. 15:44 And I still remember: he sat me down at a table 15:46 and he took his finger and he drew a circle 15:50 on the table - just an imaginary circle - and he said: 15:52 "This is like the universe. " And he said: "One of these days 15:56 at the very end of time the people that are lost 15:59 God is going to take them all and He's going to put them 16:02 outside this circle in a place called outer darkness. 16:05 And there they're going to burn forever and ever and ever 16:11 in a place called hell. " Still remember that. 16:14 And I remember getting into my car that day 16:16 and driving back through Los Angeles toward the valley 16:21 and it was surreal. 16:24 I remember just looking... I was on the freeway 16:26 and I saw all these cars and all these people 16:28 all around me and I thought to myself: 16:30 "They're all going to hell. " 16:33 And I had just learned this idea: 16:35 they're going to be lost forever and ever! 16:37 And that night I was home at my dad's house 16:41 and I remember... And my dad still remembers this... 16:44 he's 88 years old, still alive... 16:46 I climbed up to the top of the stairs where his bedroom was 16:49 and it was late at night. 16:52 And I remember just collapsing 16:56 outside of his door crying. 17:00 And he woke up and came out of his bedroom 17:03 and he said: "Steve, why are you crying? " 17:06 And I told him and I just said: "Dad, 17:08 because I've learned that if you don't believe in Jesus 17:11 you're going to burn in hell forever. " 17:13 And he just looked at me and didn't know what to say. 17:19 And I didn't know what to say. 17:21 And then just a few days later he and his wife 17:24 decided to send me to a psychologist. 17:30 So they sent me to a psycholo- gist down on Ventura Blvd. 17:34 I still remember. I drove down; went into this man's office. 17:37 Sat down and he said: "What's the problem? " 17:40 And I told him what I just told you 17:42 and he looked at me and he said: 17:45 "Oh, " he said, "I'm a Baptist. My whole family is Baptist. 17:48 We all believe that... that's the truth. " 17:54 So as you can imagine, that didn't comfort me at all. 18:00 I was very distraught about this subject 18:04 as a young 20-year-old. 18:06 Well I looked in the phone book; began to look for a church. 18:10 I began to visit churches. I went to a Methodist church; 18:13 I went to Calvary Chapel group. 18:17 Went to the synagogue 'cause I was grace Jewish. 18:20 Nobody was there... the rabbi wasn't there so I left. 18:24 And one day I turned on the television set 18:28 and I saw a man looking at me with a friendly expression. 18:33 "Hello friend, welcome to It Is Written television. " 18:36 That was Pastor George Vandeman. 18:39 And his topic was the seventh-day Sabbath. 18:43 And he gave me a little Bible study on the Sabbath. 18:46 And I was so interested in what he had to say. 18:49 At the end of his talk he held up a little book 18:51 called A Day To Remember. He held it up and he said... 18:54 looked right at me. "Friend, " he said, "call me up 18:57 and I'll send you a free copy of this book. " 18:59 So the 800 number was on the screen. 19:01 I felt this compulsion: "Go to the phone; call this man. " 19:05 So I did. 19:07 The book came in the mail. I read it in one sitting. 19:11 And at the end of the book it had a little sentence 19:13 that said: "Come visit a SDA church sometime 19:16 and say hello. " 19:17 And I thought to myself: Seventh-day Adventist? 19:19 You know, I also had a Jehovah's Witness friend. 19:21 I'd been checking Jehovah's Witnesses out. 19:23 I checked out the Baptists, the Methodists, the synagogue. 19:26 And I thought: "Well maybe I'll check out the SDA's. 19:29 What are Seventh-day Adventists? " 19:31 And then the thought came to me, some hazy memory, 19:33 that about 3 months earlier I had been in a health food store 19:36 with a buddy of mine. It was funny. You know, we were... 19:40 we were pot smoking, disco dancing, wild kids 19:43 and yet we got into health food. 19:47 We ate sprouts because sprouts are natural 19:51 like marijuana. 19:54 So... And my buddy, as I was buying the tofu burgers 19:58 and we were walking out that day, 20:00 my friend said to me... He struck up a conversation 20:04 with the guy that worked at the market. 20:05 And as we walked out my friend said to me, 20:07 he said: "You know that guy I was talking to at the market? " 20:09 He said: "That guy is a Seventh-day Adventist. " 20:12 He had told him that. 20:14 And somewhere it lodged up there, and after I read 20:17 George Vandeman's book the thought came: 20:19 "Oh, there's that man at the health food store 20:21 that's a SDA. " So I remembered that. 20:24 So I got in my car, drove out to Northridge in the valley. 20:27 Walked into the store. Looked around and sure enough 20:30 there the guy was. I recognized him. Long blonde hair. 20:33 Naturalist guy. I walked in and I grabbed... 20:38 opened up my hand and I said: 20:41 "Hi... my name's Steve Wohlberg. " 20:43 I said: "Would you mind if I went to church with you 20:45 some Saturday sometime? " 20:48 And he, you know, grabbed my hand and shook my hand 20:50 and said: "Sure! " 20:52 He said: "My name's Richard. " 20:55 And we began to talk and in the course of that conversation - 20:58 that's why I'm telling you all of this - 21:00 in the course of that conversation I asked him 21:03 I said: "Richard, what do SDA's believe about hell? " 21:07 Because I was still bothered by what Pastor Harper had told me 21:11 and what the psychologist had told me. 21:16 I was bothered by that! 21:18 And so Richard 21:22 providentially took his finger and drew a circle 21:27 just like the pastor did. 21:29 He drew a circle in the air... an imaginary circle. 21:33 And he said: "Imagine this is the universe. " 21:36 And he said: "The universe used to be a clean happy place 21:39 that God, the angels... you know, everybody was... 21:43 everything was peaceful and happy and full of love. " 21:47 And then he said: "One day a being - a holy being - 21:52 an angel named Lucifer went bad. 21:54 He became an evil angel and he brought sin 21:58 into God's universe. 22:00 It was like a cancer cell that Lucifer brought 22:05 into the universe. " And he said: "When it's all over, 22:08 when sin has run its course and this whole great controversy 22:12 is over, " he said, "what God is going to do 22:14 is He's going to erase that cancer cell 22:18 and then the universe is once again going to be 22:22 clean and happy and full of love. " 22:27 And when Richard said that something clicked 22:32 inside of my head. 22:34 And something just said to me: 22:36 "That makes a lot of sense! " 22:40 Amen! And so I went to church 22:43 with Richard and eventually was baptized 22:47 at the Canoga Park SDA church 22:49 and I became a Seventh-day Adventist. 22:51 And I have been a SDA for almost 40 years. 22:55 Amen! Through ups and downs and ins and outs 22:59 praise God I'm still here! 23:01 And I don't plan on going anywhere. 23:05 I'm going to stick with Jesus - Amen - all the way to the end 23:08 no matter what happens. 23:11 Well, anyway... 23:15 now I'm a Seventh-day Adventist and it is no secret 23:19 to those of you that have been listening... listened to Shelley 23:23 if you've been exposed to SDA teaching, 23:26 it is no secret that we believe as a church 23:30 that some day God is going to get rid of sin. 23:34 He's going to erase it, and we as a people 23:37 do not believe that hell 23:42 will burn forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. 23:46 We don't believe that... we don't buy that. 23:48 Now to be fair 23:50 I want to say - which we know - that there's a whole lot 23:55 of sincere, Bible-believing Christians out there that 23:58 disagree with us. 24:01 They read verses like Revelation 14 verse 11 24:06 that talks about smoke going up forever and ever 24:10 and ever and ever and they say to us: 24:13 "That's what the Bible says. " 24:16 That's what the Bible says. 24:19 And they feel very strongly about this: 24:22 that they want to stick with scripture 24:24 and they want to not compromise with liberalism 24:28 and with false doctrine so they still hold onto this. 24:32 And the battle is on right now over this issue. 24:37 The controversy is very, very intense. 24:39 In fact, not too long ago I met a lady... 24:42 I was down in Hollywood just a couple months ago 24:44 and I met a young lady. She referred to her name as 24:48 Esther. She was a street preacher. 24:50 And we had quite a conversation about this subject. 24:53 We began to e-mail each other and I've actually written 24:56 a little book, a little pocket book, called The Hot Topic 24:58 Of Hell" that goes into this. 25:01 And I sent her a copy of my book. 25:03 And she wrote me back and she said: "Steve, 25:06 you need to get rid of all those books. 25:09 Destroy them; burn them. 25:13 You are leading people astray by your teaching. " 25:19 And she was very strong about that. 25:22 So the question is in light of this text 25:26 that we see in Revelation 14 25:29 where it says right there in the third angel's message 25:33 in verse 11 that the smoke 25:38 of their torment will ascend up forever and ever 25:44 the question is, you know: "What do we do with this text? " 25:48 Are we right or are we wrong in our view 25:52 about hell? 25:55 Well... let's explore this. 25:58 To be honest with you this is not the only verse 26:01 in the Bible. There are other verses 26:03 that seem to teach eternal torment. 26:06 And we need to be honest about that. 26:09 But on the other side, there are other verses 26:13 and the truth is that there are many many many many 26:18 many many many more verses 26:21 that teach the opposite. 26:25 If you were to line them up... you know, all the verses 26:27 that hell apparently goes on forever 26:31 and all the other verses that don't teach that 26:34 the list is very long 26:39 against that idea. 26:41 VERY long. And the list on the other side 26:44 is very short. Now let me just show you 26:46 a couple of quick texts here. 26:48 If you have your Bibles, turn to Psalm 68 verse 2. 26:55 This verse also talks about smoke. 26:59 Another one of those smoke texts. 27:02 I used to smoke marijuana 27:06 but the Lord changed my life. Thank you, Jesus. 27:10 I don't do that anymore. 27:13 Psalm 68:2 says: 27:17 "As smoke is driven away so drive them away; 27:22 as wax melts before the fire so let the wicked 27:27 perish at the presence of God. " 27:30 Now there's a smoke text. 27:32 But that verse talks about the wicked completely perishing 27:38 at the presence of God. 27:40 Psalm 37:10 says: 27:46 "Yet a little while and the wicked shall not be. 27:50 Yea, You will diligently consider his place 27:53 and it shall not be. " 27:55 It's gone. Verse 20: "The wicked shall 27:58 perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the 28:01 fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke 28:04 shall they consume away. " 28:06 So there's another smoke text 28:09 saying that they're going to be gone. 28:13 Verse 38 says: "But the trans- gressors shall be destroyed. 28:18 The end of the wicked shall be cut off. " 28:21 And in fact, at the end of Ezekiel... or not the end... 28:24 but in Ezekiel chapter 28 28:27 this is a classic passage about Lucifer, who 28:31 was perfect in all of his ways until he sinned. 28:35 Ezekiel chapter 28 talks about his pride in verse 15. 28:41 "Sin being found in him... " Verse 14: 28:43 "He was the anointed cherub who covers. " 28:45 And then in verse 18 it says: "You have defiled your 28:49 sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, 28:51 by the iniquity of your traffic. 28:53 Therefore I will bring forth a fire from the midst of you. 28:56 It will devour you, and I will bring you to ashes 28:59 upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold you. 29:02 All they that know you among the people shall be 29:04 astonished at you. You shall be a terror 29:07 and never shall you be any more. " 29:10 So here's a verse about the devil. 29:12 And it says the devil is going to become ashes 29:15 in the fire and he's not going to exist any more. 29:20 That sounds a lot like Richard's circle, doesn't it? 29:24 Where God erases the devil and sin and evil 29:28 and it's all gone. 29:30 That's what the Bible says in Ezekiel. 29:33 So what do we do? Back to Revelation 14:11. 29:40 What do we do about this torment text? 29:43 Their being tormented day and night forever and ever? 29:45 The book of Revelation actually has verses on both sides 29:49 as well. If you look at chapter 20, 29:54 Revelation 20, we have at the end of the 1,000 years 30:01 the lost are resurrected. Verse 5 talks about the rest 30:06 of the dead living not until the 1,000 years are over. 30:10 Verse 7 talks about the devil being loosed out of his prison 30:14 and going out to deceive people. 30:17 Verse 8 says they're all gathered around 30:22 the New Jerusalem... 8 and 9... 30:24 "The number of whom is as the sand of the sea. " 30:26 All these billions of lost people. 30:30 And then at the end of verse 9 it says: "Fire came down 30:33 from God out of heaven... " And did what to them? 30:36 It devoured them. 30:38 So Revelation 20 verse 9 is a devoured text. 30:43 Now then verse 10 say: "The devil that deceived them 30:46 was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone 30:48 where the beast and the false prophet are 30:50 and they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. " 30:53 There's another one of the torment like the smoke text 30:56 where that goes on forever. 30:59 So we have verse 9 describes fire coming down 31:02 and they're devoured. 31:04 Verse 10 we have torment going on day and night forever 31:08 and ever. So the question is "Which one is it? " 31:11 Both verses are in the Bible. 31:15 Are they going to be devoured? 31:16 Or are sinners and the devil and his angels 31:19 going to be alive somewhere through all eternity? 31:23 You know, these are issues that really people have to 31:26 wrestle with. It's an issue that's right there in the Bible. 31:30 Well let me ask you: between verse 9 and verse 10, 31:33 between the lost being devoured and gone 31:37 and verse 10 torment forever and ever, 31:41 which of those two ideas do you like better? 31:47 Do you like the idea that God's going to erase sin? 31:51 Get rid of it and it's going to be gone? 31:53 Or do you like the idea of lost people burning 31:56 for all eternity? No! Yeah, and I... 31:59 And I would hope that everybody that's watching this, 32:02 anybody that's a Baptist or in another church 32:06 than SDA who's wrestling with these issues 32:09 and who's listening to this talk, 32:11 I would hope that human nature, that in your heart 32:15 if you had a choice between the two options 32:19 that you would rather have sin disappear 32:22 than have lost people tormented throughout all eternity. 32:26 I would hope that we would all want that to be the case. 32:29 But that said, we should not base 32:34 our doctrines on what we want. 32:38 Isn't that right? Amen! 32:40 It's not based on preference. 32:43 It's not based on, you know, "that sounds good" 32:46 versus "I don't like that. " 32:48 No! We don't base our doctrines based on desire 32:52 and what we like better. We base our doctrines on the Bible. 32:56 What does the Bible say? 32:58 What does the Word of God actually say? 33:01 Now if the evidence from the whole Bible 33:06 is that the lost go on forever and ever and ever 33:10 brothers and sisters, we should, if that was the evidence, 33:14 we should accept that whether we like it or not. 33:18 And on the other hand 33:21 if the evidence from the whole Bible doesn't support that, 33:26 then those who believe that it goes on forever 33:29 when they really take a close look at the whole Bible 33:32 they should be willing to give that idea up. 33:36 You know, it goes both ways. 33:38 We need to find out what does the Bible really say? 33:42 Now let's just dig a little deeper here. 33:44 If you look at verse 9 when it says: "They went up on the 33:48 breadth of the earth and they encompassed the camp 33:51 of the saints about and the Beloved City. 33:53 And fire came down from God out of heaven 33:56 and devoured them. " 33:57 Let me ask you: do you see anything symbolic... 34:00 any symbolic language in verse 9? 34:04 I don't. It's just a very simple narrative 34:07 of people surrounding the New Jerusalem 34:12 and then them being devoured in fire. 34:14 There's nothing symbolic in verse 9. 34:16 What about verse 10? 34:18 "The devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire 34:21 and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. 34:24 And they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever. " 34:27 See any symbolism in the verse that talks about torment 34:31 forever? There IS symbolism. 34:35 The obvious symbolism is the reference to the beast. 34:40 The Bible says the beast has seven heads and ten horns 34:42 which is obviously symbolic. 34:45 So... a very important point 34:49 is that when the Bible talks about, at least in this verse... 34:51 We have the devoured text: nothing is symbolic; 34:54 we have the tormented forever text: symbolism. 34:58 Go back to Revelation 14:11, our main text, 35:02 about the smoke going up forever and ever. 35:05 It says: "They have no rest day or night 35:07 they... those who worship the beast. " 35:10 So is there any symbolism in that text? 35:15 Yes there is... same thing 35:17 about the beast who has seven heads and ten horns. 35:21 So that's twice in Revelation 35:24 the verses that seem to suggest eternal torment 35:27 have symbolism in them. 35:29 Now a third text is chapter 19. 35:34 Revelation 19:2-3 35:40 talks about the destruction of the harlot. 35:45 Verse 2 says: "True and righteous are His judgments. " 35:49 God's judgments are true, they're righteous. 35:52 "He has judged the great whore who did corrupt the earth 35:55 with her fornication and He has avenged the blood 35:58 of His servants at her hand. 36:00 And again they said Hallelujah! and her smoke rose up 36:05 forever and ever. " 36:07 There's another smoke text 36:09 about the smoke going up forever. 36:11 But do you see any symbolism there in verses 2 and 3? 36:15 Yes! It's the symbolism of a whore 36:19 who is described in Revelation 17 36:22 who rides a seven-headed ten-horned beast. 36:25 And it says that it's her smoke 36:29 that goes up forever and ever. 36:31 Now that doesn't literally mean that there's going to be 36:34 a literal woman with the name BABYLON on her forehead 36:37 holding a golden cup 36:39 riding a seven-headed ten-horned beast 36:41 who is going to be in a certain location 36:44 literally burning whose literal smoke is going up forever. 36:48 It doesn't mean that. 36:50 We're dealing with symbolism. 36:53 So my point is that the three references in Revelation - 36:57 and I discovered this in my Bible study - 37:00 the three references that seem to suggest 37:03 smoke going up forever, torment forever, etc. 37:06 those three references in the last book of the Bible 37:10 every single one of those verses 37:13 is connected to clear and obvious symbolism. 37:20 And that is important for us to keep in mind. 37:25 Now, back to Revelation 14:11 37:30 about the smoke of their torment ascending up forever and ever. 37:37 Here's a very important point. 37:39 And we don't want to rationalize away the Word of God. 37:42 When we talk about hell and death and the Sabbath, 37:45 and all these different issues, the three angels, the beast, 37:48 SDAs must not rationalize away the Word of God. 37:54 We must be faithful to scripture. 37:57 And that applies to Christians in other churches as well. 38:00 God's call upon all of us is to be faithful to scripture. 38:04 We need to study the Bible carefully... 38:06 not just one text here one text there 38:09 but look at the whole Bible. 38:10 Look at the evidence of the whole Bible. 38:12 Look at the character of God as Shelley so powerfully 38:16 described a little while ago, look at the whole character 38:19 of God: God's love, His justice, His mercy. 38:22 Wrath, judgment, everything ultimately needs to be seen 38:27 through the lens of the cross. Amen! 38:30 That Jesus revealed the heart of God, the character of God, 38:34 and He gave His life for us. 38:36 Now, back to our controversy here about this text. 38:43 When you read the book of Revelation carefully... 38:45 really study it, not... when we're not like 38:50 water skiers but we're like deep sea divers, 38:54 you know, going down deep 38:56 and really studying the Word of God 38:58 you discover that in the book of Revelation 39:00 it's really a masterpiece. Revelation is an incredible 39:03 masterpiece of prophecy and literature and power 39:07 and truth and a whole bunch of things 39:10 centered in the Lamb 39:13 that just about everything in Revelation 39:16 has a root that takes you back to the Old Testament somewhere. 39:22 When Revelation talks about the Lamb 39:24 that takes us back to all the lambs sacrificed in the Bible 39:29 pointing to Jesus. 39:30 When Revelation talks about the beast 39:33 it takes you back to Daniel 7 that describes four beasts 39:37 and a lot of links. 39:39 When Revelation 22 talks about the Tree of Life 39:42 at the very end the Tree of Life is restored 39:47 in the new heavens and the new earth 39:49 that takes you back to Genesis 39:52 chapters 1 and 2 where the Tree of Life 39:55 was in the Garden of Eden in the beginning. 39:58 So almost everything in Reve- lation takes you back somewhere. 40:02 And the verse in Revelation 14:11 40:05 "And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever" 40:08 that text has a root. 40:12 It takes you back to another verse which is in Isaiah ch. 34. 40:18 So if you have your Bible follow with me 40:22 to Isaiah 34 and let's see what we can learn 40:27 about that text from the root text. 40:34 34 verse 6. 40:40 Isaiah chapter 34 verse 6 says: "The sword of the Lord 40:45 is filled with blood. 40:47 It is made fat with fatness 40:52 and with the blood of lambs and goats, 40:54 with the fat of the kidneys of rams. 40:56 For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah 41:00 and a great slaughter in the land of Idumaea. " 41:05 Now I want to build a point here 41:08 that this is taking us back to a certain territory 41:11 called the Land of Idumaea. And if I remembered this right 41:15 it was a territory south of Jerusalem. 41:18 It's an area... or it was a real area. 41:24 And then going on verse 7 says: 41:26 "The unicorn shall come down with them 41:29 and the bullocks with the bulls 41:33 and their land shall be soaked with blood 41:36 and their dust made fat with fatness. 41:39 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance 41:41 and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion. 41:45 And the streams thereof... " which is the streams 41:49 in the land of Idumaea... 41:51 "the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch 41:55 and the dust thereof into brimstone. " 41:58 So here we have fire and brimstone language. 42:04 And then it says: "And the land thereof 42:07 shall become burning pitch. " 42:09 So here's this territory eventually coming on fire. 42:13 And then verse 10 says: 42:16 "It shall not be quenched night nor day. 42:21 The smoke thereof shall go up forever. " 42:25 So here's the smoke text 42:28 where it goes up forever and this is the verse 42:31 That Revelation 14:11 picks up on and builds on. 42:40 Now again, it's talking about a literal territory, right? 42:46 The land of Idumaea. 42:49 Now then notice the rest of the verse 42:52 qualifies what it means, 42:56 what the forever and ever and ever part means. 43:01 It says: "The smoke thereof shall go up forever. 43:05 From generation to generation it shall lie waste. 43:10 None shall pass through it forever and ever. " 43:14 So in this text "forever and ever" 43:17 is qualified by "from generation to generation" 43:24 and it's talking about a certain territory. 43:27 Now let me ask you: is that territory burning now? 43:31 No. No. 43:34 Is Sodom and Gomorrah burning now? 43:36 No. No. The Bible says Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed 43:39 by eternal fire. 43:42 But it also says in I believe it's II Peter 43:46 it says it became ashes in a moment. 43:51 Actually there's a verse in Lamentations. 43:54 Lamentations says God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah 43:57 in a moment. I think it's chapter 4 verse 6. 43:59 II Peter 2:6 talks about 44:01 Sodom and Gomorrah becoming ashes. 44:03 So Sodom and Gomorrah became ashes in a moment. 44:06 Jude verse 7 says this happened as a result 44:09 of eternal fire. So when you put the pieces together 44:13 the eternal fire turned Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes 44:17 in a moment. And the land of Idumaea 44:22 that will have smoke going up forever and ever 44:26 is qualified to mean from generation to generation 44:30 the land is going to lie waste, 44:33 but that land is not burning today. 44:36 And in the new heavens and the new earth 44:38 when God remakes the earth and the heavens 44:41 which we'll talk about - that's my last topic 44:44 which is Saturday night which is a happier topic 44:47 than the torment topic - 44:49 I'll talk about the new heavens and the new earth 44:53 it's very clear that when God remakes the new heavens 44:56 and the new earth there is not going to be a place anywhere 44:59 where smoke is going up forever and ever. 45:04 Amen! It's just not going to happen. 45:06 It's not what the Bible... what the Bible says. 45:09 In fact, let's go back to Revelation 45:13 and look at chapter 20 and 21 quickly. 45:22 And again, we need to look at the whole Bible 45:25 and we need to look at the whole character of God 45:28 which ultimately was revealed by Jesus Christ 45:33 when He gave His life on a cross. 45:35 And Jesus said that God "so loved the world 45:38 that He gave His only begotten Son 45:40 that whoever would believe in Him should not... " What? 45:42 Perish! "should not perish 45:44 but have everlasting life. " 45:46 See any symbolism in that verse? 45:47 It's just a straightforward text where those who believe in Jesus 45:52 will have eternal life and those who don't 45:54 it says they will perish. 45:56 They will perish. Romans 6:23 says 46:00 "The wages of sin is death 46:03 but the gift of God is eternal life. " 46:05 If Jesus paid the full price for our sin 46:09 which all true Bible Christians believe 46:13 that Jesus paid the full price on the cross for our sins 46:17 as the Lamb, 46:19 if the wages of sin is eternal torment 46:23 then in order for Jesus to pay... to legitimately and fully 46:28 to have fully paid the price for sin, 46:32 then He must burn forever 46:35 if that's the true wages of sin. 46:38 Or if it was the wage of sin and He didn't do that 46:42 then He didn't really pay the price. 46:46 But He did pay the price. Amen! He paid the FULL price 46:50 on the cross. And what happened to Him: 46:53 He died... He died. 46:58 And do we believe He was really dead? 47:00 Yes! I do. 47:02 That's what the Bible says: "Christ DIED for our sins 47:06 and He rose from the dead. " Yes! 47:09 Those who reject Him and those who get the mark of the beast, 47:13 those who rebel against God and refuse to submit to the 47:16 authority of His Word to God as our Creator - 47:20 God as our loving Creator - if they refuse that 47:24 persistently and continually and if they die 47:30 then they will come up in the second resurrection 47:33 which is described in Revelation chapter 20 verse 5. 47:36 "The rest of the dead lived not again until the 1,000 years 47:39 were finished. " So the rest of the dead 47:42 who don't come up in the first resurrection when Jesus comes 47:45 they come up in the second resurrection. 47:48 Verse 8 says: "Their number is as the sand of the sea. " 47:53 There's going to be billions of lost people at the end of time 47:57 who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years. 48:00 Verse 9: "They surround the New Jerusalem" 48:03 and then it says: "fire comes down from God 48:05 out of heaven and devours them. " 48:08 Verses 11 to 15 describe a judgment 48:12 that happens prior to their destruction. 48:15 And in that great white throne judgment 48:18 all the lost are gathered around the great white throne 48:20 and they see the reason why they're lost. 48:23 They see where they've rebelled against God; 48:27 where they've rejected God, His character, and His love 48:30 and His Son and His cross and His truth 48:34 that is revealed in the whole Bible. 48:37 They see this. It's going to be a fearful, solemn day 48:41 for the lost. 48:43 And then in verse 15 it says: "Whoever was not found written 48:46 in the Book of Life... " What happens to them? 48:49 It says they're "cast into the lake of fire. " 48:52 There's the fire just like in verse 9. 48:55 The fire comes and devours them. 48:57 And where are they according to verse 8 and verse 9? 49:01 They're on the earth, right? They're marching on the earth 49:06 and they're surrounding the New Jerusalem. 49:09 And fire comes down and devours them 49:13 while they're on the earth. 49:17 And it becomes a lake of fire while they're on the earth. 49:24 And then the very next verse, chapter 21 verse 1 49:31 says: "I saw a new heaven 49:34 and a new earth 49:37 for the first heaven and the first earth 49:40 had passed away. " 49:43 Now where was the lake of fire? 49:45 On the earth. Where were the people? 49:47 On the earth. On the earth: that's what the Bible says. 49:50 Revelation 20:8-9 says they're on the earth. 49:54 The fire comes down upon them on the earth. 49:57 It becomes a lake of fire on the earth. 50:00 The whole planet with all of its sin and evil 50:05 and darkness and deception and wickedness 50:08 and terrorism and pornography 50:11 and child abuse and pain and suffering and sorrow: 50:16 all of this: it's all just going to end up in one big massive 50:22 lake of fire. And why is God going to do that? 50:26 Because His heart is a heart of love 50:29 and He wants to erase the dot 50:33 of evil in His universe 50:36 and get rid of it. 50:39 And verse 1 says that "the first heaven 50:42 and the first earth had passed away. " 50:45 And where was the lake of fire? 50:48 It was on the earth. 50:49 And so when you have a new heaven and a new earth 50:52 and the first heaven and the first earth have passed away 50:56 that tells us that the lake of fire is going to pass away 51:01 as well. Verse 4 says: "And God 51:07 shall wipe away all tears from their eyes 51:12 and there shall be no more death 51:16 neither sorrow nor crying. 51:18 Neither shall there be any more pain 51:21 for the former things are passed away. " 51:23 That's what I'm going to talk about in the last meeting. 51:26 I have the privilege of having the last talk 51:30 and it's going to be on this subject: 51:32 on the new heavens and the new earth. 51:35 And so it says that there's not going to be any more death. 51:39 Not going to be any more sorrow; not going to be any more pain. 51:42 And if hell burned forever, 51:46 if the smoke literally went up forever 51:50 with no symbolism which is not what the Bible says 51:53 then that would mean that somewhere in God's universe 51:57 there's always going to be pain and suffering and sorrow 52:01 and torment and torture 52:03 forever and ever and ever. 52:05 That's what that would mean. 52:08 But that's not true. Amen! That's not what the text says. 52:11 The text says that sorrow, pain, suffering, and death 52:15 is all going to be gone. There won't be any more pain! 52:20 "for the former things have passed away. " 52:23 "And He that sat upon the throne said: 52:25 'Behold, I make all things new! ' " 52:29 Hallelujah! 52:31 "And he said to me: 'Write, 52:34 for these words... ' These words are what? 52:39 True and faithful. 'These words are true and faithful. ' " 52:45 So the Word that says that the lake of fire and sin 52:50 and suffering and pain and sorrow is all going to be gone! 52:56 These words are true; these words are faithful. 53:04 Seventh-day Adventists are not heretics. Amen! 53:09 We're not liberals who rationalize away the Bible. 53:14 We believe in the Word of God. 53:18 Amen! And we believe in studying the whole Bible. 53:21 Amen! And we believe that God's character is 53:24 a character of love that was revealed on a cross 53:29 where Jesus died for our sins and rose again. 53:34 A number of years ago I was having a seminar 53:36 in New Jersey, and a man named Cory was coming to my 53:39 meetings. He was a Jewish man 53:41 but he was coming to a Christian series 53:43 of Bible prophecy meetings. 53:45 And one night I covered this topic. 53:49 It was called "The Hot Topic of Hell. " 53:51 And Cory was there. 53:53 And when that talk was over as I went through these 53:56 different verses and talked about the character of God 53:58 and hell and the fire and it all going away forever, 54:02 God's universe being filled with love 54:04 Cory, when that meeting was over, came up to me. 54:07 Grabbed my hand and he said: "Steve, 54:11 Steve, now I can believe! " 54:15 "Now I can believe! " 54:20 Well the next night I preached again 54:24 and he came back. 54:25 And at the end of that meeting he walked up to me 54:28 and his face was glowing. 54:29 He was just glowing! 54:31 And he grabbed my hand again and he said: "Steve! " 54:34 He said: "Last night after your talk I got on my knees 54:40 in my room and I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior. " 54:46 And he said: "Praise God I'm born again! " 54:52 Cory was baptized at the end of that seminar 54:55 and his Jewish mother was there. 54:57 And she said to me... Afterward she said: 55:01 "I don't know what's happened to my son 55:04 but it's good! It's good! " 55:10 Praise God! Amen. 55:12 Cory's life was changed through not just one text 55:16 about torment going up forever and ever and smoke 55:20 going up forever and ever but looking at the whole Bible. 55:23 Discovering that every time those texts are in Revelation 55:27 they're always symbolic 55:29 or there's symbolism connected with the verses. 55:31 And when you look at the whole Bible 55:33 God's character is a character of love AND justice. 55:39 The torment? We don't want to minimize it. 55:43 It's going to be real. 55:44 Those that reject God and His love and His truth 55:47 and His Word and His law and Him being the Creator 55:52 in the final message - the third angel's message - 55:54 the three angels' messages, if they reject this 55:57 and persistently say: "No, no, no. I'm not going to 56:00 follow Jesus; I'm not going to follow the Bible. 56:02 I'm not going to follow the three angels' messages; 56:05 I'm going to get the mark of the beast... 56:06 go along with the beast and get the mark. " 56:10 They will suffer for those choices. 56:14 There will be torment and it will be real. 56:17 And probably the greatest torment is the realization 56:20 of what they've lost. Yes! 56:22 That they've lost out on eternity 56:24 with God and with Jesus and with all the angels 56:28 and with all the saints and with all the Bible people. 56:32 And they've lost out on eternity with Christ. 56:36 That's going to be the worst torment of them all... 56:41 of all of it. 56:42 But we don't have to go through that, 56:44 praise the Lord! We have a chance 56:48 to follow our Bibles and to follow our Savior. 56:54 And when all the sin and the torment and the suffering 56:58 is over it will be OVER! Amen! 57:04 And there'll be a new heaven and a new earth 57:06 and righteousness will be there. 57:09 And we all have a chance to be there. 57:13 The universe used to be happy. 57:15 Sin entered when Lucifer rebelled. 57:19 And God is going to erase that dot 57:21 and get rid of sin. And His universe will be full 57:24 of love. Amen! And the great news is that we 57:29 can all be there. |
Revised 2018-09-12