Participants: Michael Carducci (Host), Wayne Blakely, Ron Woolsey
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000112A
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00:01 This following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:40 Welcome to Pure Choices. 00:42 My name is Michael Carducci, 00:43 and I'm here with my colleagues from Coming Out Ministries, 00:46 Pastor Ron Woolsey and also Wayne Blakely. 00:49 Thanks for coming, guys. 00:50 Yes, it's great to be here. 00:52 It's an incredible opportunity to just sit together 00:54 and talk about our new identities in Jesus Christ. 00:57 And, you know, one of the things 00:59 that we find tends to be very significant 01:03 is that people wonder where we are. 01:05 And, you know, this is not probably 01:07 the number one question that we get. 01:09 So what we want to talk about today is 01:10 we want to talk about how it is that we identify, 01:13 and what kind of descriptions or do we put, 01:17 you know, with that name of our new identity. 01:20 And so from multiple angles and various entities, 01:22 the world often operates from a reference 01:25 to someone's sexual orientation. 01:27 Ron, you're a pastor 01:28 with a good knowledge of God's Word. 01:30 I understand that God created us male and female, 01:33 but that's gender, not orientation. 01:36 Where in the Bible does God talk 01:38 about our sexual orientation? 01:40 You know, I've never found 01:42 where the Bible talks about sexual orientation, 01:44 but the Bible does talk about orientation. 01:47 Jesus talks about two paths that we may follow. 01:51 And having been a pilot in my earlier days, 01:55 if I focused on my orientation of myself, 01:59 I would never have landed in the right place. 02:02 Orientation is based upon your destination. 02:07 And in these two paths that Jesus talks about, 02:09 there is a broad way that leads to destruction, 02:12 and there's a narrow way which leads to life. 02:14 So the orientation that Bible speaks about 02:17 is about your destination, not about yourself. 02:21 So, Wayne, where does this all begin? 02:23 Where do we start talking about sexual orientation? 02:26 How did that begin? 02:28 Yeah, you know, I began to get a little 02:30 bothered by the fact that somebody 02:32 kept referring to sexual orientation. 02:34 And like Ron, I couldn't find references to it in God's Word. 02:38 But what I did find in my research 02:40 that the surfacing of the term sexual orientation 02:43 didn't come about until the early 1960s 02:46 after the sex research that Alfred Kinsey had done. 02:50 And what he did was he coined the phrase sexual orientation, 02:54 and then as teaching began 02:56 about sex education in the schools, 02:59 both public schools and Christian schools, 03:01 they adopted this term sexual orientation. 03:04 So one of the things that I think many people 03:07 that have our history, that have come from 03:09 has they truly question 03:11 what their sexual orientation is 03:13 and about their right to that? 03:14 I know that we all identified as gay for many years. 03:18 And in that, we said that we were born that way 03:21 to discourage any more discussion about it 03:24 or some of us actually believe that 03:26 that was our orientation and an entitlement to it. 03:29 So, Ron, any idea where that came about, 03:31 that we have a right to sexual orientation? 03:35 I believe it has to do with taking our eyes off Jesus, 03:38 and having our focus 03:41 really upside down God's way. 03:44 And the law of God is based upon loving God supremely, 03:48 loving others ahead of yourself, yourself last. 03:52 When we're focusing upon sexual orientation, 03:55 again we're focusing inward, we're not putting God first. 03:58 God has expressed very clearly how He feels, 04:02 what He thinks, what He has created. 04:05 And if we are really, truly oriented to God, 04:08 we are not going to be focusing upon 04:10 our own fallen human nature feelings, 04:13 and emotions, and tendencies. 04:15 Okay, so help me with something, Ron. 04:17 Make it practical if you would. 04:19 Tell me how that transition was for you personally because, 04:22 you know, we can talk theologically 04:25 and as far as like what the Word of God says, 04:29 but how did that translate for you, 04:31 someone who turned their back on homosexuality, 04:33 and is married with children now. 04:35 How was that for you that you put 04:38 God supreme and denied yourself? 04:41 Well, for me to find an escape from this bondage, 04:45 and I really felt it was bondage. 04:48 I hated my life. 04:50 My life of sin, and shame, and stigma. 04:53 And to really find my way out of that, 04:56 I really just had to let God lead me and accept 05:00 that He is a loving Father, that He knows best, 05:04 that if I would follow His plan for my life, 05:07 it would be much better than my own plan 05:10 for my life because I could not see the end 05:12 from the beginning, but He could. 05:14 And it really is as simple as trusting 05:18 that He knows best in patterning your life 05:22 after what He has counseled us to follow. 05:25 Okay. 05:26 And so, Wayne, you know, I really struggled 05:29 because I know that there's a lot of people out there 05:31 that were in our situation or are in our situation, 05:34 and they really want to even understand that for themselves. 05:37 And I think that there's a lot of confusion 05:39 and each one of us have gone through our own path that way. 05:42 Wayne, give me a practical understanding 05:44 of how that transition was for you? 05:46 It wasn't until I actually met you 05:48 that I even bothered to care about what my orientation was. 05:51 I don't care if you call ex-gay, whatever. 05:53 But it was very important to you, 05:55 and would you just share that practically 05:57 with people that might be listening? 06:00 I think it really got personal for me 06:02 when I was given the opportunity 06:04 to share my testimony for the first time. 06:06 And the lady who had helped bring about my conversion, 06:10 I looked at her and I said, "So who am I?" 06:14 And she said, "Oh, you're still gay." 06:16 And I said, "No, that doesn't compute." 06:19 Why would I have gone through what I went through 06:22 to surrender everything over to Jesus Christ 06:25 and still maintain the same identity? 06:28 That doesn't make sense to me. 06:29 And so I found eventually that I'm a new creature 06:34 in Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:17. 06:36 I begin to find the joy in the Word of God, 06:39 and who it tells me I am today. 06:41 So it's interesting. 06:43 Dr. Michael Brown, who talks a lot about 06:45 the gay issue in Christianity, he also says that 06:49 this wasn't even an issue about gay rights 06:51 and about the gay translation of the Bible 06:54 until the sexual revolution, which was actually begun 06:57 by the research that Alfred Kinsey did. 07:00 So, Wayne, is it possible that we've drifted so far away 07:04 from God's plan over maybe hundreds of years 07:07 or even just a few decades that society has adopted 07:10 the idea that everyone has a right to sex? 07:14 I think we need to consider that 07:16 because of the implications 07:18 and the counterfeits that Satan brings about. 07:21 And he does it in such a way 07:22 that he doesn't think we'll recognize. 07:24 A book was written about True Sexual Morality 07:28 by Daniel Heimbach, and he had this to say. 07:31 I found it was pretty intriguing. 07:33 He says, "The gradual slide toward paganism 07:36 starts when a person still committed 07:38 to the Bible entertains dissatisfaction 07:41 with something God says about sex, 07:43 and a single logic connects a series of steps 07:46 that extend from sliding ever so slightly 07:49 from biblical teaching at one end of the full-scale 07:52 attack on biblical morality on the other. 07:55 Letting dissatisfaction fester 07:58 sparks interest in ways to soften 08:00 or remove the offending biblical teaching. 08:04 At first, it does this in ways 08:06 that do not challenge authority of scripture 08:09 but only try to change its meaning." 08:12 And so, to me, this began, 08:13 okay, here we go with hermeneutics. 08:16 And so, I think that Mr. Heimbach goes on 08:19 in this book to talk about 08:21 how the shaping of Christian morality 08:23 has switched to what the culture is today, 08:25 and it destroys the respect for the Bible. 08:28 Okay, so in recent history, 08:30 how is it that we've become so hung up on sex 08:34 and sexual identity? 08:35 Well, thankfully there's more than one person 08:37 writing about this today. 08:38 And another person, Linda Bartlett has written 08:41 in a book called The Failure of Sex Education in the Church. 08:45 She points out to us that holy is not sexy. 08:49 God calls us to holiness. 08:50 She says we are more than sexual beings, 08:53 we are spiritual beings, body, mind, and soul. 08:58 Therefore more important than educating 09:01 in all knowledge of sexuality is the teaching of identity 09:05 and salvation in Jesus Christ. 09:08 And so after I gave my life over to Jesus Christ, 09:11 I had to say to myself, so who am I today, 09:15 and so I today can joyfully say that 09:17 I'm a new creature in Jesus Christ. 09:19 Okay, all right. 09:20 So, Ron, what's the big deal? 09:22 Does it really matter how we identify 09:24 whether you're a gay Christian, an ex-gay, 09:27 a gay Seventh-day Adventist, isn't it just semantics? 09:32 Well, that's probably a good question to ask my wife. 09:35 But she's not here, so I'll try to answer for her. 09:39 I think she would be very disappointed 09:42 and very surprised if she heard me identifying 09:45 as a non-practicing gay. 09:49 When she tells her side of our story, 09:52 which she calls the real story. 09:55 She talks about how she knew me before went into the gay life. 09:59 And there was no indication whatsoever to her 10:02 or her friends that I was gay, and she knew about me 10:06 throughout my gay life as being a good friend with my sisters. 10:10 And when I came back to the Lord, she said, 10:13 "I knew if he was coming back to the Lord, 10:15 he would be what I knew him to be before he went away." 10:18 She has never thought of me as gay 10:21 or as a non-practicing gay. 10:24 And I don't think of myself in that term either 10:27 because that to me is negative reinforcement. 10:31 I turned my back on that totally. 10:34 I immerse myself in a new life. 10:37 And I decided that if I am to 10:40 ever have sexual fulfillment or intimacy in my life, 10:44 it can only be in the way God has designed it 10:47 or I will do without. 10:49 And so with that mindset 10:52 for the last 24 years, and 23 years of marriage, 10:57 I don't go around with the term heterosexual, 11:00 homosexual, ex-gay, non-practicing. 11:03 I'm just me living a new life with a wife, 11:05 and children, and ministry, 11:07 and now I don't think in those terms. 11:09 So I think these labels can really 11:12 actually inhibit our growth with the Lord. 11:14 Wow, Ron, thank you for making yourself so transparent 11:18 on that issue because I think a lot of people 11:21 misunderstand that just because that was your history 11:24 and now that you're living in a relationship 11:27 where you're married to a woman and have, 11:29 you know, a family again, a lot of us want to know, 11:32 like, was that a light switch, you know? 11:34 Wayne and I, who are still single, 11:36 it's been many years for me, 11:37 and while we still struggle with same sex attraction, 11:41 we still don't live in that lifestyle, 11:43 we don't live in that understanding, 11:45 and we're learning the process of denying 11:48 those things that call us from the past. 11:50 And so, Wayne, what's the big deal? 11:52 Why is this so important to understand 11:55 this post conversion identity? 11:58 Well, I think it's important to somebody, especially, 12:01 we reach out to people 12:02 who are looking at unwanted same sex attraction, all right? 12:06 So we're starting to look at somebody 12:09 who is looking to see if they can be somebody else 12:12 other than what their attractions are telling them. 12:15 So why would you want to secure yourself 12:18 in the fact you're gay. 12:19 The only reason you come out 12:21 and tell yourself or tell the world that you're gay 12:23 is because you've been convinced 12:25 that your feelings equal truth. 12:27 But the Word of God tells us that 12:29 if we're not practicing or for not being 12:33 led by the temptations into the behavior, 12:36 we don't have to identify by it, 12:37 we can share with somebody. 12:39 "Yes, please pray for me. I have same sex attraction." 12:42 But I can be somebody not identified 12:45 by my temptations, know. 12:46 We don't... 12:48 You don't call yourself a non-practicing thief 12:49 or a non-practicing adulterer or whatever the case may be, 12:53 but somehow we've locked into society 12:57 with this idea that once gay, always gay. 13:00 So even in a post conversion experience, 13:02 we're still telling somebody that they're gay. 13:04 Okay, so what I pick up from that again 13:07 is one of the issues that I really... 13:09 Not offended by, but really turned off by 13:12 was the fact that, 13:13 "Listen, you're still trying to put a label on me." 13:15 You know, if we don't have label... 13:17 If one of the things that we're trying to do is 13:18 get away from the labels, you know, 13:20 why would you want to even be called a gay Christian 13:24 when I want to be inclusive to the body of Christianity. 13:27 And if there's not exclusions for different sins 13:30 and different temptations, 13:32 then why would I want to be singled out 13:34 once again with another label called gay Christian. 13:37 Okay, and so that's something that's very personal to me. 13:41 So it sounds like there's a lack 13:43 of biblically based instruction. 13:45 And so what I really want to touch on now 13:47 is by continuing to identify as gay Christian 13:51 or homosexual Christian, 13:52 what we continue to do, I believe, 13:55 is to drop off temptation which God says 13:58 that behavior is an abomination. 14:00 And so if we're continuing to connect that 14:04 to our identity in Jesus Christ, 14:05 then I believe that what we continue to do 14:08 is connect ourselves to that understanding 14:10 and make Jesus power impudent. 14:13 So, Ron, could you elaborate on that, maybe a little bit? 14:17 When I left my life in the world years ago, 14:23 homosexuality was just one of the vices. 14:27 I turned my back on smoking, and drinking, and drugs, 14:30 and many other things. 14:33 And so I don't go around today 14:37 telling people that I'm a non-practicing pothead. 14:41 I'm a pothead Christian 14:44 or that I'm a lusting Christian but non-practicing. 14:47 We were addressing a group of ministers a while back, 14:50 and one of the questions that I posted to them was this, 14:54 "Suppose I come to you and I say, you know, 14:56 'I'm a non-practicing pedophile,' 14:59 is there a place for me in your church? 15:01 Oh, and by the way I really enjoy 15:02 working with young people." 15:05 Do you... 15:06 How would you feel if I carried that label? 15:09 I'm a Christian, 15:10 but I'm a non-practicing pedophile. 15:13 And the reaction was kind of unanimous. 15:15 They're going, "Well, we'd some problems with that." 15:21 If we're non-practicing, 15:22 then why do we call ourselves that? 15:25 We were staying with someone at a conference not long ago, 15:30 and the fellow in the home 15:31 was telling us that he was an alcoholic. 15:34 And I thought, "Oh, really?" 15:36 I mean he's very active in Bible work, 15:38 and prison ministry, and just on fire for the Lord. 15:41 And the next day he brought it up again, and I said, 15:44 "Doug, when was the last time you had a drink?" 15:47 He said, "Well, 22 years ago." 15:50 I said, "Doug, you're not an alcoholic, 15:53 you used to be an alcoholic." 15:55 You know, every time you say that, 15:56 that's negative reinforcement, 15:58 and it would tend to pull you down 16:01 or lessen your credibility. 16:03 So if we are accepting Jesus Christ, 16:06 let's lay these things aside. 16:07 Why do we want to identify with the things 16:09 we're being saved from? 16:11 Thank you. It's beautiful. 16:13 So when I was in SAA meetings, which is Sex Addicts Anonymous. 16:16 We would sit in a circle, and the circle would say, 16:19 "Hi, I'm Mike. I'm a sex addict." 16:20 And so what that did after a while as I realized that, 16:24 "What so a man thinketh in his heart that so he is." 16:26 And so that's not biblical. 16:28 I'm not that anymore, not because of my own power 16:31 but because of what Christ has done for me. 16:33 So when we're talking about the power of Jesus Christ, 16:36 I believe that we minimize that power 16:38 when we continue to identify with the struggle. 16:41 As a matter of fact, gay Christian is not biblical 16:45 because the Bible says that the old things are passed away. 16:48 And so if I didn't make the separation, 16:51 even though I may have the attraction by identifying 16:54 with the temptation I continued to bring that identity with me 16:58 and never fully embrace the power 17:00 of what Jesus Christ has for me. 17:02 And so to me, this is very important to understand 17:07 the specifics of that identity. 17:09 You know, in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 17:13 it talks about those who will not be in heaven. 17:16 And homosexuality is one of them. 17:18 It's listed in several different ways. 17:20 And in my simplistic way of thinking, 17:25 if someone is identifying as a gay Christian, 17:28 and God says, 17:30 "Gays will not be in heaven," then it's basically saying... 17:34 To me, it says, "I'm a Christian 17:36 who will not be in heaven 17:37 because gays will not be in heaven." 17:40 If I'm a gay Christian, 17:42 then I fall into that category of not everyone that says, 17:45 "Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." 17:48 Does that make sense? 17:49 If we're identifying with sin, we've not been saved from it, 17:52 we've not distance ourselves from it, 17:55 we're limiting God's ability to save us. 17:58 And I picture Jesus as kind of cutting away this ball 18:03 and chain that's been around our foot. 18:05 And that's like the bondage of sin. 18:09 Why would I pick that chain up in and drag it around with, 18:12 when I've been set free from it. 18:14 That's, to me, how I see these types of labels. 18:17 Okay, so Wayne, I want it... 18:19 There's something that I really want you to address for me, 18:21 but I just want to finish this thought. 18:23 When I approach someone about this problem 18:25 with masturbation that was still in my life, 18:28 the one thing that he said to me, 18:29 he said, "If you want freedom from it," 18:32 he says, "you have to determine that it must die." 18:35 He said, "You have to slit its throat, 18:36 you have to stab it in the heart, 18:38 you have to smash its head." 18:39 And so one of the things that I had to realize 18:41 is I had to make a total and complete separation 18:45 from this thing that I identified with for so long, 18:47 and so the application is the same. 18:49 So, Wayne, what is the difference now? 18:52 You know, we have this message going around 18:54 like just love, you know, Jesus loves all of us. 18:57 He just loves us, and we need to be more loving 18:59 and show love to people. 19:01 Is that still true? 19:02 And is that where it ends? 19:05 Well, the love, yeah, the love is absolutely 19:09 the core of what is needed. 19:13 But love isn't permission. 19:16 And so we've somehow, even the church, 19:19 in the time that we didn't talk about this 19:23 has finally come around 19:24 to getting it into the discussion, 19:27 but now they're still afraid of offending. 19:29 And we need not offend anyone, but in the ignorance, 19:34 we're doing more damage by locking people 19:36 into identities that chain them 19:38 to the world instead of who they can be in Jesus Christ. 19:41 The love that we want to share, the love that Jesus shares 19:45 is that He will walk with us on the journey. 19:47 And that... 19:51 That no matter if you mess up, 19:55 that we don't let go off the person. 19:57 We still see them as the potential 19:59 that Jesus sees for them. 20:00 We still see them as the person 20:01 that they can become in Jesus Christ, 20:03 not locked into the past, 20:05 but by walking with them and saying, "It's okay. 20:08 Another day has gone by." 20:10 And you've surrendered, 20:11 and you've given your life over to Jesus Christ. 20:13 You're not identifying by your temptations, 20:15 but you're beginning to see the beauty 20:18 of who Jesus says you can be in Him. 20:21 And Jesus gives us roles and responsibilities, 20:23 He gives us engagements that we can have with Him, 20:26 the devotional time that we all share with Jesus today, 20:29 we start sharing with each other 20:30 what we've discovered in Jesus Christ. 20:33 And that inspires and motivates somebody else 20:35 along the journey as while we're walking with each other. 20:39 Sometimes Jesus has to carry us, 20:41 sometimes as a church body or as a caring individual, 20:45 we need to take that person's hand 20:47 and let them know that they are affirmed, 20:49 that they're confirmed in Jesus Christ, 20:51 but they have escaped from their past. 20:54 So one of the things that we've all experienced 20:56 is that the church definitely needs a lot of work 20:59 in the area of loving sinners, right? 21:02 And in particular, even loving homosexuals. 21:05 But that's not where it ends. 21:07 That's such a vital part, and we identify that the church 21:10 really has a lot of work to do in that area, 21:12 but that doesn't mean that we throw out 21:13 the power of Jesus Christ either 21:15 or the word that comes with conviction 21:18 which some people can find, you know, 21:21 what's the word that you use for it, Ron? 21:24 It hurts, it pinches, right? Conviction. 21:27 Can I say something, 21:29 it's more about the love issue from a parental position. 21:33 There are two kinds of love. 21:36 And we can say that we love our children 21:40 and indulge their bad behavior. 21:43 And this is what I see happening 21:44 so much in the church today. 21:46 There is this love that is loving people 21:51 down the broad way which leads to destruction. 21:53 I call it cheap love. 21:55 It's not the love that our heavenly Father has. 21:58 When we realize that God is love, 22:01 and He's the perfect definition of love, He is a father, 22:05 and so everything that He does 22:07 and everything that He says is from a loving heart. 22:10 So that means His commandments, His warnings, His reproofs, 22:15 His corrections, His punishment, 22:18 all of these things are from a loving Father. 22:21 And as a father myself, 22:23 one of the most difficult things I've ever had to do 22:25 is punish my children. 22:28 But in love, I know that at times it had to be done. 22:31 And what we're seeing so much in the church today 22:34 is what I call cheap love. 22:36 It's not a love that will love someone 22:39 and nurture them along the narrow way, 22:41 it is a love that will just kind of gloss over things 22:46 down the broad way to destruction. 22:48 You know, God's Word said, 22:49 "To those that I love, I rebuke and chasten." 22:52 He is a Father, right? 22:54 So, Wayne, you know, 22:55 in regards to the churches and the schools, 22:57 you know, are they failing to recognize this difference, 23:00 and are we more interested in being 23:02 coming politically correct in a world 23:04 that is just bombarding us with 23:06 sexual identity, sexual freedom, 23:09 and it makes Christianity look kind of restrictive 23:14 or even kind of old-fashioned or even hateful. 23:17 And so elaborate on that if you would. 23:19 What's wrong with this? 23:21 Well, I think there's a certain amount of oppression 23:23 that is coming from culture today. 23:26 And, you know, if you choose not to have a biblical belief, 23:32 that's okay, you have a choice about that, 23:34 and nobody is forcing you to adopt that. 23:36 But when you enter into a Christian school system, 23:40 you should be able to get the purity of the Word of God 23:44 and the compelling power of the Word of God. 23:46 And so when we begin to bow to social pressure 23:51 instead of living for the greatness 23:56 of the Word of God that makes us 23:59 a peculiar people today, 24:01 we're selling people short of who they can be. 24:03 And so I think it's important. 24:05 I think that there's an importance. 24:08 We don't have the end all solution on this, 24:11 but we have a lot of good positive solutions 24:15 having been there. 24:16 And because the church refused 24:18 to discuss this for such a long time, 24:21 I see today that they want to be 24:23 in authoritative position, 24:24 and they don't necessarily want to consult 24:26 with somebody like you and I. 24:28 They wanted to have come from themselves, 24:31 but they're floundering a little bit, 24:32 and I think that they're not giving the students 24:36 who is searching the full potential 24:38 of who they can be in Jesus Christ. 24:41 One of the things that was so profound for me 24:43 in this journey, and you guys have helped me a lot 24:46 with this because, you know, you guys are more... 24:51 What's the word for it? It's like... 24:52 For me, it was kind of like, 24:54 "Well, just tell me what I have to do to get by." 24:56 And so I was kind of moving in that direction. 24:58 It wasn't until I really determined 25:00 that this part must go. 25:02 And before I could even realize that, you know, 25:05 I tried to keep it, these are things that I love, 25:07 things that I enjoy, things that I embrace, 25:09 and so it wasn't until I really made the distinction 25:11 that I'm not that anymore. 25:13 And I may struggle with those feelings and attractions, 25:16 but I choose not to be identified with that. 25:18 I want to be identified by the power of Jesus Christ. 25:21 And as I started to identify with that, 25:24 even against my feelings, and claiming the Word of God, 25:27 then all of a sudden that power became real. 25:32 It started to manifest itself in my life. 25:34 I started to gain victories over areas 25:36 that I didn't have before. 25:37 I started to experience feelings, 25:39 and tendencies, and tastes that I'd never had before. 25:42 And so I think that that's the gravest danger 25:45 is that by continuing to put 25:47 that identity in there that I'm still an ex-gay 25:50 or a gay Christian or whatever that is, 25:52 I still continue to drag that along with me, 25:54 like you were saying, Ron. 25:56 So, guys, this has been helpful for me. 25:59 Give me a final thought 26:01 if you could in about 30 seconds or so to really, 26:04 kind of, personalize your experience 26:07 and how this has such meaning for you? 26:09 I think, quickly, from your inspiration 26:12 and motivation to do, you know, spend time with God, 26:15 and to go in deep and find out more things 26:18 that are benefiting your Christian life today. 26:20 You share those with us sometimes, 26:22 and that intrigues me, 26:24 and that makes me have further victories. 26:26 If we go to the Word of God which cannot fail us, 26:30 that's how we help one another along the way. 26:33 We don't have to gloss it over. 26:34 We don't have to make it look like something it isn't 26:37 or put it in a PC kind of language today. 26:41 We can take the Word as it states. 26:43 Oh, thanks, Wayne. 26:45 Ron? 26:46 You know, I think of the passage in Romans 12:1-2, 26:50 "Be not conformed to this world, 26:52 but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind." 26:57 And through the Bible, I've found so many helpful tips 27:02 on how to have that transformation of thinking 27:06 that helps us see ourselves in a totally different light. 27:10 And if we will look at ourselves 27:11 and try to look at ourselves the way Jesus looks at us 27:16 as a new child in Christ, 27:18 it helps us realize that our orientation 27:20 is in Him as a royal child of God. 27:25 Wow, so that's great. 27:26 Thank you, guys, for those closing comments. 27:29 One of the things that I realize more and more is that 27:32 by being called a gay Christian, 27:33 we're really... it's a handicap. 27:35 You're leaving us with a handicap. 27:37 And because of our past, 27:39 because of our experience in Christ, 27:41 we know that those things have to go 27:42 to be able to walk in the fullness 27:44 of what God has created us to be. 27:46 So thank you for this lively discussion. 27:49 And we hope that you'll come back and join us again 27:51 on Pure Choices. |
Revised 2018-07-23