Participants: Dannielle Harrison (Host), Michael Carducci
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000108A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:04 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:05 may be too candid for younger children. 00:41 Hello and thank you for joining us on Pure Choices. 00:44 My name is Danielle Harrison 00:46 and I'm an associate member of Coming Out Ministries. 00:50 And today, here, joining me is my colleague, 00:53 Pastor Ron Woolsey. 00:55 Thank you for joining us, Ron. 00:56 Yeah, it's good to be with you today, Danielle. 00:58 Amen. Amen. 01:00 Now, Ron, I've heard you list out the ways 01:02 that the Lord really stepped in and intervened in your life 01:05 when you were living as a gay man. 01:07 And he stepped in and He started to convict you 01:11 and to convert you, as He got your attention, 01:14 and He really redirected you on a new path through victory. 01:20 And that's what I want to talk about. 01:21 Can you share that with us today? 01:23 Okay, yes. 01:25 You've heard me talk about how in the beginning, 01:27 when I was trying to study my way out of the gay life, 01:29 how I sat down with the Word of God, 01:32 with the Margarita in one hand, 01:33 and a cigarette in the other trying to relax 01:37 to be able to even concentrate on what I was reading. 01:41 And the Lord worked through that. 01:43 He got my attention all right, and He held it, convicted me. 01:48 As I look back now on the journey 01:51 the Lord has led me through, 01:53 I put together a list of what I call, 01:55 a list of realizations, in the order in which the Lord 01:59 was able to hold my attention 02:03 and lead me out of the gay life. 02:04 And I found that it has been very helpful 02:06 to a lot of people. 02:08 The first thing that I've realized, 02:10 as I was reading that marvelous book, 02:12 Steps to Christ, was it, God really did love me. 02:16 It didn't matter who I was, what I was, where I was, 02:20 He loved me very, very much. 02:22 Amen. 02:24 He is the perfect essence of love. 02:27 So everything He asks of us, His commandments, His warnings, 02:32 His threatenings, His reproves, corrections, 02:36 even His punishments 02:38 are from our loving Heavenly Father. 02:40 And as I realized how much God loved me, 02:44 that instilled in me a sense of worth and value 02:47 that I really didn't have up to that point. 02:49 And so the next thing that I realized was that 02:54 I needed to really face myself. 02:57 Just step up to the mirror and take a good look, 02:59 because truth can bear a scrutiny, can't it? 03:01 And so I decided to just honestly 03:04 take a look at myself and evaluate. 03:08 And when you are standing in the presence of God 03:10 or you are beholding Christ through His Word, 03:13 and then you see yourself, 03:15 you can really see your great need of a savior. 03:20 And so I came to the point that I stopped blaming 03:25 because up to that point I was blaming God 03:27 for who I was, 03:28 and other people for molesting me 03:30 and wronging me throughout life, 03:33 but you know, Jeremiah 3 tells us, 03:36 Gods says, "Only acknowledge thine iniquity," 03:40 not someone else's, 03:41 "only acknowledge thine iniquity 03:43 and I will heal your backsliding." 03:45 So I began to acknowledge, 03:47 you know, this is a sin issue with me. 03:51 It's not something, it doesn't matter, 03:53 you know, how or why I'm this way. 03:56 This is a sin issue and as I began to acknowledge 03:59 that it was a sin issue, I began to realize 04:03 that Jesus came to save me from my sin, 04:06 just like anyone else. 04:08 And so things began to click. 04:10 Amen. Amen. 04:12 Well, that sounds like a fascinating beginning 04:14 to a journey towards discipleship. 04:16 What happened from there? 04:19 I had grown up with the understanding 04:23 that homosexuality was abomination. 04:26 But I really felt like it was the abomination, 04:29 like it was the unpardonable sin, 04:32 and I felt so badly about myself 04:35 because of this abomination. 04:38 And so I went through the Bible 04:41 and I found all the abominations listed 04:45 in the Bible. 04:47 I put them all together in one little basket, 04:49 in a paragraph and you know, 04:51 that made me feel so much better, 04:53 not about my sin but about my chances, 04:57 you know, for overcoming as well. 05:00 So if God could make a liar honest, 05:03 and humble the proud, if He could save Ruth, 05:06 the idolatrous, you know, from her idolatry, 05:11 and there is just a long list. 05:14 Adultery itself is considered abomination, cross-dressing, 05:18 certain remarriages, 05:20 and so it's not just homosexuality, 05:23 of course, in the Leviticus 18 and 20, 05:27 we read that, "If a man lie with mankind as with a woman, 05:30 he has," they both, both of them 05:33 have committed abomination. 05:35 So I knew that, but as I put that all together, 05:41 I began to realize, God's plan should be 05:43 able to work for me as well as for anyone else. 05:46 Amen. 05:48 And so also, all my life 05:50 I had bought into this, 05:55 of my gay life, I should say, during my gay life 05:58 I had bought into this myth that I was born gay, 06:02 and once gay, always gay. 06:04 And people couldn't really talk to me about the issue 06:07 because I had all kinds of excuses, 06:09 because I was born gay. 06:11 But then, I began to realize another realization 06:15 that the cause of homosexuality is totally irrelevant. 06:19 If someone is drowning in the sea 06:21 and you've heard me say this many times, 06:24 it doesn't matter why, does it? 06:25 If the lifeguard comes out, 06:27 he's not going to interrogate you 06:28 as how you got out there. 06:29 What matters is the lifeguard. 06:32 So people can argue about 06:36 the causes of homosexuality indefinitely, 06:40 but the Bible doesn't seem to focus 06:42 upon the causes for addiction, or bondage, or sin. 06:47 The Bible is all about solutions. 06:49 And so I began to focus on solutions 06:51 rather than excuses 06:53 and that was a very big help for me, 06:57 it propelled me forward 06:59 and then the next thing was learning to forgive. 07:04 I had grown up in a very bad relationship 07:08 with my father, just a terrible relationship. 07:12 I mean, it got better over the years, 07:14 but I was holding on to all kinds of resentments 07:18 which left me, I call it emotionally retarded, 07:22 but I had a psychiatrist correct me at one point 07:25 and say, we have a term for that, 07:26 it's called emotional arrest, not retardation. 07:32 When I started facing my resentments, 07:35 and when I confronted my father with a spirit of forgiveness, 07:40 and he was just weeping, asking me to forgive him 07:45 for all the ways he had wronged me in my childhood 07:48 and it was a mutual discussion 07:52 and our hearts just melted, 07:55 you know, as we confessed to each other, 07:58 we forgave each other. 08:00 And I'll have to tell you, Danielle, from that point, 08:02 I mean, it was like this huge load just rolled off my back. 08:06 I was... 08:08 I felt such a sense of freedom 08:10 just by being able to forgive and let go. 08:17 When you do that, it doesn't mean 08:19 you are struck with amnesia, 08:21 my father and I didn't forget the past. 08:24 In fact, from that day forward, if things came up 08:26 from the past, we could laugh about these things, 08:30 we could talk openly, it just didn't matter anymore. 08:34 We remembered that it didn't matter 08:36 because we had the spirit of forgiveness 08:38 and that to me was just a major, major milestone 08:43 in my journey was learning to forgive 08:45 and I urge people, if you are dealing 08:48 with these kinds of issues in your life, 08:50 learn to forgive and let go, whether the other person 08:54 is asking for forgiveness or not, 08:57 it sets you free if you can learn to forgive. 09:00 That, right. That's right, wow. 09:02 You know, how important it really is to learn 09:04 how to forgive and I think that's a freedom 09:05 that we all really need on a certain level, 09:10 each one of us. 09:11 And it's not only is easy to do but there is so much freedom, 09:15 like you said, it's freeing and there is a lot of liberty 09:18 there in that place of forgiveness. 09:20 So where did your journey go 09:22 from there to towards wholeness? 09:24 When I went into the gay life, 09:28 I had wrestled against homosexuality all my life 09:32 since my molestation when I was four years old. 09:35 My mind was just totally confused 09:37 and I resisted that in my life 09:42 but I never told a living soul about it. 09:45 And so I went through all of my young life, 09:48 I even got married and thinking that 09:51 marriage was a solution to this whole problem, 09:54 and I can assure you marriage is not the solution 09:57 to any problem. 09:59 And in fact, it can be the beginning of woes 10:02 if you are not married to the right person, 10:04 for the right reason, and with God's blessing. 10:06 And I just, I thought, "Well, if I'm just married, 10:10 it will take care of all of these." 10:11 And it didn't, you know, surprise, surprise, it did not, 10:17 and so eventually, I just gave up on God 10:21 and I just felt headlonging into the gay life. 10:24 Well, then people came to me 10:26 and they were trying to tell me, 10:27 "Well, this is just all about choices." 10:30 And I go through this whole list of good choices 10:33 I have made all of my life and I don't have time 10:36 to enumerate those now, but I mean I just, 10:39 I grew up as a spiritual young person 10:41 and I made many, many good choices 10:44 but what I would say is this. 10:48 I've made a habit, all my life, of making good choices. 10:52 This is not about choice. 10:54 This is just who I am and I don't know why, 10:57 but this is who I am. 10:58 I have just decided to accept who I am. 11:03 It didn't dawn on me that when I said that 11:05 I decided to accept that I was admitting 11:08 that I had made the choice. 11:10 I'd never made that connection but I have learned that 11:14 it is a matter of choice for this reason. 11:18 If you are confronted with a way out, 11:22 which the Word of God is, now it's a choice. 11:26 You can choose the way out 11:28 or you can choose to stay in it. 11:29 And you may feel like you had no choice, 11:32 all along the way, 11:33 but when God steps into your life 11:36 through some person, 11:38 or the word, or some circumstance, 11:41 and He offers you a way out, 11:43 and you don't take it, 11:45 now it's a matter of choice. 11:47 So it really came down on me, 11:51 very clearly that I did choose this, 11:54 I didn't choose the temptations, 11:56 but I chose to give in to those temptations. 12:00 So that was a major epiphany for me to admit 12:05 that I was wrong about this whole thing about choices. 12:09 It's hard for us to admit we are wrong sometimes, 12:11 sure all the time, isn't it? 12:13 From there, I realized that I need to walk with God 12:20 as I chose to accept Him and come out of that life. 12:25 Now I needed to walk with God, 12:27 I need to spend time with Him in the Word, 12:30 I need to spend time with Him in prayer, 12:32 I need to spend time with Him in nature, 12:34 and learning to walk with God 12:39 helped me realize I'm not in this all alone. 12:42 There is someone with me that can help me 12:45 and encourage me along the way. 12:47 If I stumble and fall, He is right there to say, 12:50 "Ron, get up. You can do better. 12:53 And let's continue this journey." 12:56 So walking with God 12:58 became a very important part of my life, 13:00 with morning and evening devotions throughout the day 13:02 and I actually uprooted myself from Southern California 13:06 and moved into the Ozark Mountains of Arkansas. 13:09 That was like whiplash... Big change. 13:11 Oh, it was like whiplash for me. 13:13 In three days, I was going stir-crazy 13:16 and all those trees with bugs, 13:18 crickets, and frogs, and mites and all of that 13:21 but I love living there now where I'm surrounded by nature. 13:27 And so, God is just all around me 13:30 in a place like that. 13:32 And then the next realization 13:37 which is number nine in my list of realizations 13:41 was that I needed to protect my environment. 13:44 And that's another reason 13:45 that I moved out of Southern Californian 13:48 where I was a sales manager over five counties 13:54 and every day of the week, I was in a different county, 13:56 and Southern California, 13:59 I knew all of the major gay hangouts 14:02 in all of those counties. 14:04 Every day when I got off work, I knew where to go to indulge, 14:09 you know, my addictive life. 14:12 And so it came to my realization 14:18 that I needed to really protect my environment. 14:21 I needed to be careful with what I watch. 14:24 I learned how to flip the switch, 14:26 and turn the page, and change the channel, 14:28 and turn my head, and change the subject. 14:33 Music, and I know, Danielle, you relate to the music issue. 14:36 Music was a big part of my life 14:37 because I was a dancer and a dance instructor, 14:40 and I was always involved in music. 14:43 And I'll just throw this out there, 14:46 kind of as a little side issue here, 14:51 but I think you can relate to it. 14:53 In church, if there is the wrong music, 14:57 and we have had cases where you and I 14:59 have had to get up and walk out 15:01 because we have to protect our environment. 15:04 And music is just one example, it pulls us back in our minds, 15:08 it brings back memories, it brings back feelings, 15:11 it brings back emotions, 15:14 strong temptation to get back into, 15:19 in our minds to think about things 15:20 we shouldn't be thinking about. 15:22 So it's very important to protect the environment. 15:27 And so this is one of those things, 15:29 you know, Philippians 4:8 says, 15:31 "Whatsoever things are true, honest, 15:33 just, pure, lovely, of good report and so forth, 15:38 think on these things." 15:39 And I'm kind of a news addict, 15:41 I mean I like watching the news, 15:43 and it's hard sometimes to watch the news 15:46 if you are thinking about, you know, 15:49 what's true, and honest, just, and pure, and lovely. 15:52 But these are very important things, 15:54 and James 4:7 says, 15:56 "We ought to submit ourselves to God, 15:59 resist the devil, and then he will flee from us." 16:03 And so this is all a part of protecting 16:04 our environment which is very, 16:06 very important in our type of situation, 16:09 well, with any person. 16:11 Yeah, I definitely agree, you know, 16:13 and I can relate to what you are sharing 16:15 because I had to go through that process of... 16:18 Yeah, I just realized 16:20 there is someone that came to me once 16:22 and said, "So do you think that you are cured, 16:26 I mean can you go now into a gay bar 16:28 and not be tempted?" 16:30 I said, "My momma didn't raise a fool, you know." 16:35 Satan is supernatural, 16:37 I know where he hangs out in many places, 16:40 why would I go try to tempt him to tempt me. 16:44 That's not the way you protect your environment. 16:47 You realize that he is a formidable foe 16:50 and you don't willingly give him 16:53 any advantage over you. 16:55 That doesn't mean you are not converted, 16:56 it doesn't mean you are a new creature. 16:58 It just means that you now are wise to his antics, 17:03 to his tactics, and you don't place yourself 17:05 where he will have an advantage over you. 17:08 So we have to guard our senses, and also the places that we go, 17:11 and the associations that we keep, 17:13 and lot of different things like that. 17:15 Exactly. 17:16 So if we are at point 10, or 11, 17:18 I mean, in your journey, you said there were 14, 17:21 what else comes next in your journey 17:24 away from the addictive lifestyle of homosexuality? 17:28 It became important to me in reading Scripture, 17:32 to personalize Scripture, 17:34 and I have a collection of promises, 17:39 I call it a rainbow of promises. 17:41 I like the idea of reclaiming the rainbow, 17:44 I'm gonna write a book about that someday. 17:47 Oh, oh, I've just revealed what I planned to do, 17:50 someone's gonna take that away. 17:51 You better hurry up then. That's right. 17:53 But you take all of these promises, 17:56 these exceeding great and precious promises of God 18:00 and you insert yourself into the context and, 18:03 you know, just as an example with 2 Corinthians 5:17, 18:07 which I think is one of your favorite texts and mine. 18:09 And Coming Out Ministries is kind of a theme text for us. 18:13 Therefore, if any man, especially Ron Woolsey, 18:17 be in Christ, Ron is now a new creature. 18:22 Old things are passed away, 18:24 in Arkansas that means we have a funeral, you know? 18:26 Old things are passed away, all things have become new, 18:31 and when I put myself in that, if I am in Christ, 18:38 then I am a new creature in Christ. 18:40 I personally, my old self is gone, 18:44 I starve that, I bury that, then I become new 18:49 and I really like the commentary, 18:51 I have a study Bible, 18:52 a commentary Bible, and the commentary 18:54 on that says that the new birth consists 18:57 of having new motives, 19:00 and new tastes, and new tendencies. 19:02 I read that as a gay person and I got excited 19:05 because I was looking for a way out 19:08 and then it goes on to say that a genuine conversion changes, 19:12 hereditary, and cultivated tendencies to wrong, 19:16 and I got excited all over again 19:18 realizing that if I factored into my experience 19:23 the miracle working power of God, 19:26 anything is possible. 19:29 With human reasoning, psychology, psychiatry, 19:32 and so forth, apart from God, change is impossible. 19:36 We are fallen human beings, 19:37 but what is so often left out of that whole field of study 19:41 is the miracle working power of God. 19:44 And so in personalizing Scripture, 19:48 it just brings it alive. 19:49 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, is another one. 19:52 We'll list all these behaviors that will not be in heaven. 19:57 I found myself in there multiple times. 20:00 I was going to be lost multiple times 20:01 and then, verse 11 says, 20:03 "And such were some of you, Ron, but you are washed, 20:10 you are sanctified, you are justified," 20:12 and when you put your name in those texts, 20:16 it really pops, it really becomes meaningful 20:21 and so doing that, 20:23 the next step was, I realized, 20:24 I need to start acting upon God's Word. 20:28 When I read a promise, I just accept it. 20:32 And I incorporate into my life, I believe it, 20:34 and I just act as though I really believe 20:37 what I am reading 20:38 because there is power in the Word. 20:41 You know, I was talking about how I was reading 20:42 the Word with a Margarita 20:44 and a cigarette in the very beginning, 20:46 and when I got to a certain point, 20:49 I found myself snuffing out the cigarettes, 20:51 I just couldn't do that anymore, 20:53 and it's because, Danielle, 20:54 there is power in the Word of God. 20:58 "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made, 21:00 all the hosts within by the breath of his mouth, 21:02 where He spake, He was done, 21:04 He commanded and it stood fast. 21:06 That same creative power is right here, in written form. 21:11 And as we read the Word of God, and we access that power, 21:16 we are beholding Christ and we become changed 21:19 and you know, when Jesus said to Lazarus, 21:21 "Lazarus, come forth." 21:23 That's re-creative power 21:26 and that's what we have access to. 21:30 "If the Son therefore shall make you free," 21:32 Ron, Danielle, "Then you are free indeed." 21:36 That word indeed, free indeed, 21:39 that's the inspiration for this whole study. 21:43 We don't have to keep, you know, 21:46 dragging around the ball and chain, 21:48 we can be set free. 21:50 And we shouldn't pick up that chain 21:51 and drag it around as an identity either, 21:53 but that's another subject for another day. 21:57 The 12th point that 21:59 I want to stress is that of being grateful. 22:02 Yes. 22:04 An attitude of gratitude. 22:05 You know, God created us man, and woman for each other. 22:11 And we need to be grateful for what He gave us 22:14 and when He created this institution of marriage, 22:17 with that institution, 22:19 He instilled the wonderful gift of sexual intimacy. 22:24 That gift goes with that package, 22:26 it goes with institution only, 22:30 and we need to be grateful for that. 22:33 Outside of the marriage institution, 22:36 it is a violation of God's will and His law. 22:39 And so when a... 22:43 Now this is kind of the way I think 22:44 and some people think that 22:46 I think in a strange way sometimes, 22:48 but if I, a man, am lusting after another man, 22:54 am I not coveting what God really has 22:56 for someone else, like for a woman? 22:58 Sure. If I am lust... 23:01 If a woman is lusting after a woman, 23:03 is she not coveting, is she not ungrateful 23:08 for what God has created 23:10 and we just need to accept that God is love 23:16 and that everything that He has created is 23:20 for our own well-being, our own fulfillment and joy, 23:24 and happiness, and success in life, 23:28 and so we need to go forward with a grateful heart 23:31 and not look at the law of God and the will of God 23:35 as a restrictive fence but as a protective hedge. 23:41 That's right. 23:42 And I think what you are sharing 23:44 makes so much sense and I know it, 23:45 in my experience, 23:46 as I was really struggling with depression, 23:48 and anxiety attacks and all of these. 23:50 That key point right there was revolutionary for me 23:54 and just focusing my mind 23:56 on the things I could be grateful for, 23:57 really started to bring me out of those clouds 24:01 and the pit that I was in for a lot of years. 24:04 Exactly, yeah. 24:06 And the Bible tells us to rejoice in the Lord always, 24:08 even when the times are dark. 24:09 There's always something there that we can be grateful 24:12 for so much that we have to be grateful for. 24:16 So is there some secret to, 24:19 you know, to wrap these things up 24:21 and to bring a conclusion, there must be the crowning, 24:25 the crowning part. 24:27 Well, there is a two part secret, 24:29 and I had up to this point in my life, 24:35 identified myself by my thinking, 24:37 by my, you know, 24:39 "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he," 24:42 and I just thought of myself as, 24:46 well, let's put it this way, 24:48 I identified with the nature of my temptations. 24:52 But through my study, I began to realize 24:55 that temptation is not sin, 24:59 because Hebrews 4 says that 25:00 Jesus was tempted in all points like as we are, 25:04 there again, in all points like Ron Woolsey. 25:06 I shared that with a professor once 25:08 and he was startled and he said, 25:09 "Well, you don't think Jesus was tempted like that, 25:11 do you?" 25:13 I said, "Well, how do you think He was tempted, like you?" 25:16 Well, that's not fair. Sure. 25:18 Personalizing scripture, temptation is not sin. 25:22 Jesus was tempted, yet without sin. 25:25 Not only that, in Hebrews 2, "He suffered being tempted." 25:28 So He struggled, and in Hebrews 12, 25:31 "He resisted unto blood, striving against sin." 25:35 And so we know that 25:38 Jesus was not the chiefest of sinners, 25:40 and He was tempted in all points, 25:42 like as we are. 25:43 When I realized, Danielle, 25:44 that temptation does not need to define who I am, 25:47 that, like the forgiveness thing, 25:49 that was a very liberating moment for me, 25:52 to realize that I don't need to identify 25:54 with Satan's plan for my life... 25:57 I can identify with God's plan for my life. 26:00 And then the final thing that I came to, 26:03 was realizing that the secret to overcoming sin, 26:09 the real secret is helping others 26:12 to overcome sin. That's right. 26:13 And I think that's one reason the Lord put me in ministry, 26:17 maybe you too, because He knows that 26:19 it's the only way He can get me to heaven, 26:20 is to keep me involved in helping others, 26:23 the secret to overcoming 26:25 is helping others to overcome, how? 26:27 Revelation 12:11, "By the blood of the lamb 26:31 and the word of our testimony." 26:33 As we tell the story of Jesus, 26:36 we are helping others to overcome sin, 26:39 and then as we live the life of Jesus, 26:42 and we share our testimonies 26:44 of what He has done in our lives, 26:45 that's positive reinforcement for ourselves 26:49 and it's also a blessing to others. 26:51 And that to me is the secret to overcoming sin, 26:55 helping others to do so. 26:56 Amen, excellent. 26:58 Thank you so much for sharing, Ron. 26:59 So can you just give us a recap of all of those 14 points? 27:02 Okay. 27:03 Number one, realize God's love for you. 27:08 Number two, face yourself, be willing to face yourself. 27:11 Number three, acknowledge that this issue, 27:14 your issue is a sin issue. 27:17 Jesus came to save you from sin. 27:19 Number four, salvation is for you too, 27:22 no matter who you are. 27:23 Number five, the cause of homosexuality, 27:26 or whatever the issue is totally irrelevant. 27:30 Number six, learn to forgive, a big point. 27:34 Learn to forgive, number seven, 27:36 it is a matter of choice. 27:37 Number eight, walk with God. 27:39 Number nine, protect your environment. 27:42 Number ten, personalize scripture. 27:44 Eleven, act upon God's Word. 27:47 Twelve, be grateful. 27:50 Thirteen, temptation is not sin. 27:52 And fourteen, the secret to overcoming sin 27:54 is helping others to overcome. 27:56 Amen. Amen. 27:58 Well, thank you for joining us on Pure Choices today. 28:00 Until next time, may God bless you. |
Revised 2018-07-06