Participants: Michael Carducci (Host), Danielle Harrison
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000107A
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00:02 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:04 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:06 may be too candid for younger children. 00:40 Welcome to Pure Choices. 00:42 My name is Michael Carducci, 00:44 and I'm here with Danielle Harrison, 00:46 my colleague with Coming Out Ministries. 00:48 Today, our topic is sexuality and spirituality. 00:51 We want to talk about the damage of sexuality 00:55 outside of God's design. 00:57 Welcome, Danielle. Thank you. Michael. 00:59 It's a powerful topic, 01:00 and we'll take our time going through it. 01:02 My first question for you, Danielle, 01:04 is you've spoken before on the impact 01:06 which sexual sins can have on us spiritually, 01:09 why do you think this is so? 01:12 Well, I believe that God really created everything 01:15 in the natural realm that we experience 01:18 to teach us spiritual object lessons. 01:20 And we see that very clearly through nature 01:24 and we know that Jesus taught through object lessons 01:28 and we see that very clearly in His ministry. 01:32 And I think that not only did He create the creatures 01:36 and the things that we see in nature like the flowers 01:38 and things like that to teach us 01:40 spiritual object lessons 01:42 but every aspect of life including sexuality. 01:44 And I think that's why the enemy does everything 01:46 that he can to create confusion in the world, 01:51 in the natural world around us, we see that in evolution 01:54 and the like but especially in the realm of sexuality, 02:00 relationships, marriage, courtship, 02:04 and I think he does that because this is 02:06 such an intimate part of our lives, 02:09 it's something that is intricately woven 02:12 into every aspect of our being. 02:15 And so the enemy knows how much of a profound impact 02:18 it has on us spiritually. 02:19 And the Lord desires to teach us 02:22 about Him through sexuality, 02:23 but we lack the clarity of seeing 02:27 that in this world today so much 02:29 because of all of the confusion 02:30 that Satan has created on these topics. 02:33 Interesting, Danielle, because our histories are different 02:37 and yet we each went into same sex attraction, 02:39 bisexuality, homosexuality, 02:42 you know, anything outside of the realm 02:44 of holy sexuality, I heard somebody say one time 02:47 they called it counterfeit sexuality. 02:50 And we've interviewed people that were molested, 02:53 people that were introduced like yourself 02:55 at seven years old to masturbation. 02:57 I discovered it on my own by taking out a book 03:00 out of the library. 03:01 So any of those opportunities, 03:04 we're going to experience sexuality 03:07 in a way that was never intended to be, 03:10 but it has a hook. 03:11 You know, Satan knows exactly how the senses are designed 03:15 and how anything sexual will actually cause that hook 03:19 but ultimately never gives us what we truly were meant 03:22 to experience. 03:24 Amen. 03:25 So, again, can you help our viewers, Danielle, 03:27 understand why it's harmful to indulge in, let's say, 03:30 let's start with masturbation? 03:31 Sure. 03:33 Well, especially with the indulgence of masturbation, 03:36 I think it prematurely awakens this drive, 03:41 this hunger that God has placed in us toward sexuality, 03:46 and He's done that for a beautiful thing 03:50 when we use it in the right way. 03:51 And when we use it and we indulge in it 03:55 through masturbation, we're prematurely 03:57 awakening that desire. 03:58 And so we're not using it for the right purposes 04:02 and we're not gaining the right knowledge through it. 04:05 It cultivates habits of lustful thoughts, 04:08 and it creates a very self-focused view 04:13 and perspective of sexuality. 04:16 You know, God desires for us to have a ministry 04:20 towards the person that we are married to and, 04:26 through that sexual exploration, 04:28 to come to understand the intimate relationship 04:31 that He wants to have with us. 04:32 And so if we are using sex to only gratify ourselves 04:37 and the focus is on me pleasing myself, 04:41 then it's going to cultivate the selfishness, 04:44 the spirit of selfishness that we know is really fueled 04:48 and driven by Satan because 04:50 that was the whole nature of his fall 04:53 and really every sin and, you know, 04:56 it just creates this cycle of addiction. 05:00 You know, it's interesting from a practical standpoint. 05:03 One of the things that I realized is that 05:05 when I was caught up in the height of, you know, 05:08 masturbation and fantasy what it did is it actually 05:11 denied me the sexuality that God had intended me to be. 05:15 You know, whether you're looking 05:16 at the image on a piece of paper, 05:19 a screen, a telephone, what's happening 05:22 is you're denying yourself the way that God intended, 05:25 you are intended to touch and to experience 05:28 and to feel the intimacy of you 05:30 with your opposite sex partner the way God designed it. 05:33 And so how sad that we cheapen that 05:36 and cheat ourselves out of the experience 05:38 that God had designed for us. 05:40 I can speak for myself that, for me, the ten minutes or, 05:46 you know, several times in a day 05:47 or several times in a week that I was indulging 05:50 in that behavior, 05:51 what it did is it cut me off from interacting socially 05:54 with other people. 05:55 It cut me off from intimacy. 05:56 It cut me off from the interchange 05:59 with other people, and I found myself isolating. 06:02 I found myself addicted and staying up until 3 o'clock 06:05 in the morning when I, you know, 06:06 needed to be getting sleep to go to work the next day 06:09 because ultimately, Danielle, 06:10 it never gave me what I was intended for, 06:13 the feeling of satisfaction and peace that I deserved 06:19 and was promised through doing it God's way. 06:23 So I think that there's a practical application 06:26 of that as well, and the enemy, Satan knows how we're wired 06:29 and he knows that when you have a sexual release 06:31 that there's a chemical that's released 06:33 in the back of the brain like heroin and it says, 06:35 "Wow, that was good. 06:36 Let's do this again." 06:38 And so if we're doing it God's way, 06:39 then we're beholding, and touching, 06:41 and experiencing the one that we love, 06:43 and rather than, you know, whenever you have 06:45 a sexual release and you're watching 06:47 pornography or even just fantasy, 06:50 you know, what's happening is it's gluing you 06:52 or bonding you to that thing, so it makes sense that people 06:55 really struggle with addictions 06:56 towards masturbation and pornography. 06:59 That's right. 07:00 So, Danielle, why is it harmful to indulge in pornography? 07:04 Well, from the experiences that I have had 07:08 and from the experiences that I know other people 07:10 have had, really, if you're indulging 07:12 in pornography especially before marriage, 07:14 you're going to be setting yourself 07:16 up to have challenges inside the marriage, 07:18 it's the same with masturbation. 07:20 And really, I think the two go hand in hand 07:22 once you get into the realm of pornography. 07:24 And it doesn't really stand alone 07:26 without masturbation being by its side. 07:29 They go hand in hand. That's right. 07:31 So, you know, I think it creates a dynamic 07:35 that's going to cause challenges in your marriage 07:37 because the way that you have, well, like I said, 07:41 you've placed yourself on a self-centered focus, 07:45 but also, you know, you're going to have 07:48 all of these past influences in your mind 07:50 that's going to drive your expectations 07:53 of what your sexual experience is going to be 07:55 like in your marriage, 07:56 and it's also going to create a wedge 08:00 between you and your partner because... 08:02 I totally agree. 08:04 When we've talked to other people 08:05 that struggle with pornography or even just masturbation, 08:08 I've spoken to theology students 08:11 that were struggling and then they thought, 08:12 "Well, once I get married, 08:14 all of this will just wash away..." 08:15 And then find out from their wives, their spouses, 08:18 and themselves that this thing that they thought would be 08:22 released from them actually came into the marriage bed 08:25 and was actually causing conflicts in the marriage. 08:27 The wife wasn't getting what she deserved. 08:29 The husband found himself drawn to this behavior more and more. 08:34 And, you know, Ellen White even explains that in somewhat, 08:36 you know, more detail in the book, 08:38 Testimonies on Sexual Behavior, Adultery, and Divorce. 08:42 And so that was quite shocking for me as a Christian 08:46 that fell back into pornography and masturbation. 08:49 And to read those words of conviction, I was really, 08:54 you know, in the throes of conviction 08:57 about how was I going to get released from this. 09:00 So definitely, I totally see how just because you think 09:06 that by having a physical relationship 09:07 is going to be the answer to this problem 09:09 when in actuality it's not and it can actually 09:12 become problematic in the relationship. 09:15 Amen. Amen. 09:16 You know, I think another problem 09:19 that pornography really cultivates is that 09:22 we're told in the scripture that when a man 09:25 looks at a woman and lusts after her, 09:27 he has committed adultery with her already in this heart. 09:30 And so we truly are committing fornication and adultery 09:35 when we're indulging in pornography. 09:38 And like I said, there are so many spiritual implications 09:43 of why that is harmful, but I think one of the physical 09:49 implications is that it really objectifies the human being. 09:53 I'm glad you brought that up. 09:54 Because now it's not me in a ministry with my husband 09:59 to experience God through this experience, 10:04 it's just you're an object for my consumption 10:08 that I'm going to consume for myself 10:10 and that I'm going to use for myself. 10:12 So you can imagine why it creates a rift 10:14 in the marriage once marriage comes in 10:17 because you're not looking at the person as a person 10:20 because you've always objectified the people 10:22 that you have consumed through the pornography. 10:26 And when you really look at it, 10:28 it really is a form of prostitution. 10:31 And I think a lot of people don't consider that 10:34 when they're indulging in it, but you are purchasing 10:37 that person for your use, for your consumption. 10:40 And so it really is a type of prostitution. 10:43 And I think that's something that people remove themselves 10:46 from, from the experience, 10:48 but you are really purchasing someone. 10:51 Right. 10:52 I want to back up just a little bit talking 10:54 about the objectifying. 10:56 I remember realizing in that behavior 10:59 which began when I was 13 11:01 that I was collecting a harem in my mind. 11:04 I was, you know, collecting people from school, 11:07 people that I saw in traffic, people that I saw in stores, 11:12 you know, wherever I was out, I was collecting these people 11:15 as objects of desire and I was keeping them in this harem 11:18 inside my mind. 11:19 You know, definitely now as a Christian, 11:22 I understand the power of a fantasy 11:25 and the power of evil that it creates, 11:28 not just the fact that if you're looking 11:30 at real literal pornography on a screen, 11:33 you are looking at somebody's daughter or son, 11:36 you're looking at somebody's brother or sister 11:38 or niece or nephew. 11:39 And so, you know, 11:41 a lot of times that has conviction, 11:43 but sometimes even that isn't enough to stop people 11:46 from this vicious and vile habit 11:48 as Ellen White talks about it. 11:50 You mentioned something about the sexual relationship 11:53 between a husband and wife as a ministry, 11:55 and I really wanted to try to kind of impact that 11:57 a little bit because it sounds kind of disconnected. 12:00 Would you just elaborate a little bit more? 12:02 Sure. 12:03 And I've brought that up in speaking around the country, 12:06 and I had someone come up to me and say, 12:08 "You shouldn't call sex a ministry." 12:10 They were a little bit uncomfortable about that. 12:12 But when we think of the essence of a ministry, 12:15 when you go out on a mission trip 12:18 working for a ministry, 12:20 you're going there to help the people, 12:22 to serve the people, 12:25 and to aid the people to come to know God. 12:28 And I think that is the essence of what I mean 12:33 when I talk about sex being a ministry. 12:36 Are you there just to gain something for yourself, 12:39 just to feel good for a while? 12:40 Or are you there to really experience God 12:43 with this person to serve them? 12:47 You know, is it about them and what you're giving to them 12:53 and to really come to connect with God 12:56 through that experience? 12:57 Beautiful. 12:58 So I want to kind of segue a little bit 13:00 into what is true intimacy? 13:02 You know, we definitely know what poor intimacy 13:05 or inadequate intimacy is. 13:07 And I think that that's why 13:09 not just pornography, masturbation, fantasy 13:13 but also sexual deviancy that the Bible says, 13:16 you know, is harmful, the act of homosexuality 13:19 as an abomination. 13:21 Wow, you know, for me that came with great conviction, 13:23 and I was angry at God, like how dare you call me 13:26 an abomination because I connected myself 13:28 so closely to that. 13:30 But as I understand the fact that I had absolutely no idea 13:34 of what true intimacy was, and interesting that 13:37 when I came out in gay culture, 13:39 the one thing that I was desperate 13:41 for was intimacy with a man, not sexual, 13:44 I wasn't even attracted to the sexuality of homosexuality, 13:47 I was attracted to being affirmed by masculinity. 13:51 What was interesting is that I realized that 13:53 if I wanted the affirmation, the emotional affirmation 13:56 of intimacy with a man, then I had to participate 13:59 in that sexual activity. 14:00 And so very quickly, as I realized that, 14:04 well, if I participate in that, I get the intimacy 14:06 that I'm looking for, and eventually, very quickly, 14:09 that got turned upside down, and then eventually, 14:12 my sexual addiction, at the height of it, 14:14 it was like, "Don't tell me your name and don't talk." 14:17 You know, I realized that the one thing 14:19 that I was desperate for was the one thing 14:21 that became the most elusive to me. 14:23 And so this is where I think is really paramount 14:27 that sexuality... 14:29 What was it? 14:30 Counterfeit sexuality breaks your ability 14:33 to experience true intimacy, and we serve a God of intimacy. 14:38 Isn't that right? That's right. 14:39 So, Danielle, share with me a little bit how is it that 14:42 counterfeit sexuality disturbs or destroys the ability 14:46 to relate intimately to God. 14:48 Sure. 14:49 Well, I think, like we touched on briefly before, 14:53 there's this addictive cycle that it brings you into. 14:57 And I think that that is a driving force 15:00 that really creates a vicious cycle 15:04 that tunnels us down deeper away from the light 15:07 and further into the darkness, 15:10 that drives us from the thing 15:11 that used to be very stimulating to us before 15:15 but now is no longer such, 15:17 we're ever chasing that high that we experienced before. 15:23 Hang on, that sounds very familiar 15:25 because I've heard heroin addicts, 15:26 I've heard cocaine addicts talk about the fact 15:29 that they end up in addiction because they're always chasing 15:32 the first high, right? 15:35 Can sex or sexuality be an addiction? 15:38 Yes. I think it very much is. 15:40 When you think about how, you know, 15:43 the euphoria that drugs create, and sexuality really does. 15:48 You talk about the drugs that are released 15:52 in the brain naturally through that experience, 15:55 and that it does create a habit of addiction, 15:58 and when you're not receiving the powerful punch 16:02 that you had before, it drives you 16:04 into stranger things that you thought 16:07 that you wouldn't indulge in before. 16:09 So you have this addictive cycle 16:11 and you mentioned being very offended by hearing 16:17 that homosexuality was an abomination. 16:20 And I think that this is something 16:23 that creates a lot of confusion and challenges for people too 16:26 because I was so... 16:28 I had my identity so woven up into my sexuality that 16:33 when someone said that 16:34 homosexuality was an abomination, 16:36 it was like they were saying I was an abomination. 16:39 But truly, in essence, you know, 16:41 I'm a child of God and I think 16:43 that's what we need to remember. 16:44 We need to remember that a person who struggles 16:48 or even doesn't struggle but lives as a homosexual, 16:52 they are a child of God, and we have to love them, 16:55 and appreciate them, and respect them, 16:56 and nurture them towards having those kind of intimate 17:03 kind of healthy relationships 17:05 of what true intimacy really is. 17:07 True intimacy really is about connecting on a deep level 17:12 in a space where you can be perfectly vulnerable 17:16 and understood and still loved. 17:20 And I think that that's the kind of intimacy 17:22 that we're searching for inside of our churches, 17:25 that's the kind of intimacy that we're searching 17:26 for inside of our families, and we don't have 17:29 those kind of relationships. 17:31 And so if we're confused about that nature of true intimacy, 17:37 we're driven toward sex because we are bombarded by everything 17:41 in the media that tells us that intimacy equals sex, 17:45 but really it doesn't, it equals that space of safety 17:50 and deep connection that is rich and beneficial. 17:54 So it's interesting to bring out, 17:56 and I think it's very important to establish especially 17:59 because of our history, we were especially concerned 18:04 about making sure that the church represents Christ 18:07 and God as loving, accepting, and that even if we fall 18:12 outside of the measure of what God has designed 18:15 each one of us for that He doesn't reject us, 18:17 He doesn't hate us. 18:19 As a matter of fact, the divine teacher bears 18:21 with the erring through all of their perversity, right? 18:23 His love doesn't grow cold. 18:25 So I think that it's important that we as a church have 18:27 to also say, you know, to somebody 18:29 that may struggle with that, 18:30 and I think that that's where a lot of the secrecy comes 18:32 from within the churches because we're afraid that 18:35 if I really come to you and talk about 18:37 what I'm struggling with that you're going to judge me 18:40 or hate me or put me out of the church. 18:42 And so I think that, as we discussed this, 18:44 yes, it's counterfeit sexuality and it interrupts your ability 18:48 to be intimate with God, 18:49 but if we as a church misrepresent 18:52 the intimacy of Jesus Christ to somebody who is struggling, 18:55 somebody who is falling, you know, 18:57 into that and coming short, then I think that 19:00 what we've done is a great disservice 19:02 to that person and also to God. 19:04 I think so too, Michael. 19:05 And I think that when we stand over our brethren 19:08 shaking our fingers and just looking at them 19:11 as an abomination, 19:12 we neglect to really create a bond 19:15 that bridges the gap into their heart 19:17 and into their life and then share 19:19 the essence of the true spiritual implications 19:22 of what same sex attraction really does 19:24 because when we look at Romans 1 19:26 we see that God expresses 19:31 His understanding 19:33 of these kind of relationships, it says 19:37 that it's a vile affection, you know, 19:40 I would be looking here in the latter verses, 19:47 it says that, "They became vain in their imaginations 19:50 and their foolish hearts were darkened, 19:52 and they changed the glory of the incorruptible God 19:56 into an image made like unto corruptible man." 20:02 Then it says that God let them go into their vile lusts, 20:09 dishonoring their bodies between themselves, 20:12 and it was a vile affection and that they were working 20:19 that which was unseemly, and they received 20:22 the consequences of their error. 20:25 So we see here that God is kind of putting a definition 20:29 on this experience that it's unnatural, 20:32 that it's unseemly, 20:34 and so when we see this here, 20:37 we see that not only is it hurting them physically 20:40 through the physical experience of that 20:43 because God didn't create our bodies 20:45 to have those kind of sexual experiences, 20:48 we also see very clearly that they became idolaters 20:52 and they started worshipping 20:53 and serving the creature instead of the creator. 20:56 And so I think this shows very clearly here 20:58 that transition of leaning towards alternative sexuality 21:03 and it drawing them towards also alternative spirituality. 21:07 Those verses could be taken as very offensive to someone 21:12 who's homosexual 21:13 or someone who's sexually outside of the bounds 21:16 of what God has designed for us, 21:18 but I think that there's a deeper meaning there, 21:21 especially for someone like us. 21:24 I see it as a misrepresentation of the design of God's intimacy 21:28 and why it's a vile affection to God is 21:31 because you weren't designed to experience that, 21:35 and not only were you not designed to experience that, 21:37 it doesn't satisfy, it doesn't give you 21:40 what my creation was designed to experience. 21:43 And so that's why it's vile to God 21:45 is because it's not going to give you 21:46 what you were created to experience. 21:49 And I think that we have to make that distinction 21:52 to people so that we don't sound like, you know, 21:54 those Victorian Christians that didn't experience 21:58 any kind of physical affection or whatever, 22:01 I think that we need to understand it's vile 22:03 because it cuts you off from the very intimacy 22:06 that satisfies, that fulfils, and brings you ultimate Joy. 22:10 Yeah. 22:11 And, you know, when I look at this verse 22:13 and I say that we, you know, 22:16 when we just distance ourselves 22:18 from them as they're an abomination 22:20 instead of really showing them 22:21 the essence of the spiritual implication 22:23 and then I bring forth this verse, you know, 22:26 I wouldn't necessarily take this verse to someone 22:29 and use this to describe the spiritual implications 22:33 because I think a lot of people who are wrapped up 22:36 in this identity and in these practices, 22:37 they're not going to understand this language. 22:39 But I think that if we really look at this passage 22:43 and we study out the spiritual implications 22:45 and the spiritual understanding of this, 22:46 it can help us to know how to understand 22:50 how God looks at it and to understand the chasm 22:54 that there is between God's sexuality 22:57 and the sexuality that the world 22:59 so abundantly offers. 23:01 Right. 23:02 And, Danielle, that chasm I think is so powerful 23:04 that you bring up, the chasm between 23:06 human sexuality that we say is our privilege, 23:09 it's who we are, we're allowed to experience, 23:11 no holds barred, whatever you're attracted to, 23:14 you should experience that and then look at how, 23:16 in contrast, that chasm gets deeper and deeper 23:19 as society goes lower and lower when you compare it 23:23 to the ideal of what God's sexuality is. 23:26 And I think that, you know, now until the end of time, 23:29 the chasm is only going to get wider and deeper, I'm sure. 23:33 How is it that we can turn this around 23:35 and make God not look like such a prude? 23:39 How is it that... 23:40 Oh, I have a perfect example, a famous actor who had slept 23:44 with so many Hollywood women 23:46 and he had the best of the best, 23:47 and he was well known for being a ladies' man 23:51 and he made no secret about the fact 23:54 that he was sleeping around with multiple women. 23:56 But when he got married, even someone who doesn't even 23:59 acknowledge God talked about the power of monogamy 24:03 between him and his wife. 24:05 He said, "The best sex that I've ever experienced 24:06 in my whole life was a monogamous relationship 24:09 between me and my wife." 24:11 And so here you have this man that doesn't even acknowledge 24:14 Jesus Christ or God recognized the power of intimacy 24:19 in a monogamous one-on-one relationship 24:21 that's giving amazing, right? 24:23 That is profound. Thank you. 24:25 God is so good. Amen. 24:27 And so, Danielle, as we get towards our close, 24:29 I want to get you to expand a little bit 24:31 on the relationship between Samson, 24:32 the strongest man in the world, 24:34 and Joseph and how they lost and gained their integrity. 24:40 Sure. 24:42 When we look at the stories, the contrasting stories 24:44 of Joseph and Samson, we see the powerful 24:48 and profound integrity 24:50 of Joseph who was in a place of position, 24:54 he was growing into a place of position 24:55 and he was forcefully pursued by this woman, you know, 25:01 he chose to turn and to strive against that desire 25:06 and to flee from that. 25:08 And he even said that this would be sinning 25:10 against my God, you know, 25:11 not just for the man he was working for. 25:14 And then you see Samson on the other side of the fence, 25:19 you know, and really he walked away from sexual integrity, 25:24 he went and pursued the prostitutes in Gaza, 25:27 and he ended up marrying, intermarrying with the Heathen 25:33 and the degradation that brought into his life, 25:37 the challenges that brought into his life, the death, 25:40 his death that it brought into his life and... 25:42 So, Danielle, it really shows the chasm, doesn't it? 25:45 It really does. 25:47 The chasm between open sexuality, 25:48 whatever you want, 25:49 and then also the strength that comes from 25:51 holding back sexuality, right? 25:53 That's right. 25:54 So I just want to conclude with these two quotes 25:56 that I think really encapsulates 25:58 that chasm that we're talking about between these two men. 26:01 This is from the book Patriarchs and Prophets 26:03 written by Ellen White. 26:05 It says, "Physically, Samson was the strongest man 26:08 upon the earth, but in self-control, 26:11 integrity, and firmness, he was one of the weakest." 26:15 And then in contrast we see Joseph in his early years, 26:18 "He had consulted duty rather than inclination 26:22 and the integrity, the simple trust, 26:24 the noble nature of the youth bore fruit 26:27 in the deeds of the man." 26:29 So, you know, it's beginning the journey here 26:32 and walking with God 26:34 and allowing that to fruit in our lives. 26:37 So powerful that Samson 26:39 represented as the strongest man, 26:41 physically, according to integrity, was the weakest. 26:44 And Joseph was counted as the strongest man 26:47 of integrity because he held back 26:49 his sensuality or sexuality. 26:52 You know, Danielle, that's a lesson for someone 26:54 like us and someone who might be listening is that, 26:57 you know, it's only through the strength of God 26:59 that we can even claim a day in sexual purity. 27:02 And I know that it wasn't my power or my strength, 27:06 but one of the most powerful and wonderful things 27:08 is that Romans 1 is really not that God wants to give us up, 27:12 but He wants to give us true sexuality and intimacy. 27:15 Come back and join us again for Pure Choices. |
Revised 2018-06-28