Participants: Michael Carducci, Ron Woolsey
Series Code: PC
Program Code: PC000104A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:04 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:06 may be too candid for younger children. 00:41 Welcome to Pure Choices. My name is Mike Carducci. 00:44 And I'm here with Ron Woolsey. 00:45 And we're the co-directors of Coming Out Ministries. 00:49 And today our program is going to be about The Gay Wedding. 00:52 One of the questions that we get quite often, 00:54 almost every time 00:55 that we have a Q and A in our presentations 00:58 is should I attend my son or my friend's gay wedding. 01:02 So we want to talk about that in our program today. 01:04 Welcome, Ron. Thank you. 01:06 All right. 01:07 So basically we want to start off 01:09 with a little bit of foundation 01:10 about the whole gay agenda, the gay issue. 01:14 So if you could, Ron, help us understand 01:17 how the gay movement got the minority status 01:20 and what the minority status is? 01:22 Well, you know, Mike, in my lifetime 01:23 I've seen the gay issue advance 01:28 from first just being tolerated to being accepted, 01:32 from being accepted to being celebrated 01:35 and promoted. 01:37 We have a lot of legislation going on now. 01:39 But back in the mid '80s the political branch, 01:44 the political activism branch of the gay movement decided 01:47 it was time to go 01:49 for a higher level of acceptance. 01:53 There seems to never be any satisfaction 01:55 with whatever comes their way. 01:57 And so they wanted minority status 01:59 which is a privilege status. 02:01 And I looked up some information about that. 02:04 And according to the Civil Rights Act 02:07 it recognizes minority status only for those groups 02:10 who meet three criteria, number one, they have suffered 02:14 a long history of discrimination. 02:17 Number two, they are powerless 02:19 to help themselves as a community 02:21 and number three, 02:23 interestingly is that they are born that way. 02:28 So we read that the legalization of sodomy 02:32 by way of minority status is the secret to understanding 02:36 why gay activists adopted the strategy claiming 02:41 that people are born gay. 02:43 In other words, this is kind of a hoax 02:45 that has been perpetrated upon society. 02:48 You know, it's interesting, Ron, 02:49 having come from gay culture both of us. 02:52 And I remember watching Ellen DeGeneres come out 02:56 on television, you know had a huge dinner party. 02:59 And I remember that we celebrated, 03:01 I remember feeling entitled to minority status 03:04 because of all of those points that you just brought up. 03:07 One of the things that I think is important 03:09 is that I think that 03:11 there are genuine people that believe that. 03:14 However, explain a little bit more about 03:17 what this movement has become if you would? 03:21 Well, there's been a great push to gain 03:26 the legalization of marriage. 03:29 And back in, well, last year 03:34 there was a Supreme Court case 03:37 that I think most people know about the US Supreme Court case 03:41 called Obergefell versus Hodges. 03:44 And again I'm looking at some notes 03:46 that I have taken here. 03:48 It's not the culmination of just one lawsuit, 03:51 instead it is the result of a consolidation 03:54 of a six lower court cases 03:57 originally representing 16 same sex couples, 04:02 seven of their children, 04:04 a widower and adoption agency and a funeral director. 04:08 And these original cases come from four different states, 04:12 Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky and Tennessee. 04:16 All six of the federal district courts ruled 04:19 for the same sex couples ruled 04:22 in their favor and other claimants, 04:24 and these rulings were then appealed 04:26 to the higher court. 04:28 So on April 28 last year, 04:31 this went before the Supreme Court 04:34 of the United States that heard 04:35 the oral arguments over whether 04:38 or not gay marriage is a right guaranteed 04:40 by the US Constitution. 04:43 And whether or not gay marriages 04:44 performed in states 04:46 where it has been legalized must be recognized in states 04:49 which ban gay marriages. 04:52 Then a couple months later on June 26 of last year, 04:57 the court ruled five to four that gay marriage 05:01 is a constitutional right meaning 05:04 that all 50 states must allow it, 05:07 that all existing bans are now invalid. 05:10 And the decision concluded this decade's long battle 05:14 over whether gay marriage should be legalized. 05:16 Now that Chief Justice Roberts came out 05:19 with a dissent and he criticized the majority, 05:23 and I think this is rather interesting 05:25 what he said, 05:27 he criticized the majority for ordering, for ordering 05:30 the transformation of a social institution 05:33 that has formed 05:35 the basis of human society for millennia, 05:38 for the Kalahari bushmen and the Han Chinese, 05:42 the Carthaginians and the Aztecs. 05:45 And then he goes on to say just who do we think we are. 05:51 Interesting. Wow. 05:52 You know, it's interesting to note 05:53 that since that decision was made 05:55 in June of 2015 that there have been 05:57 over 100, 000 same sex marriages now. 06:01 So, Ron, I want to move a little bit and discuss 06:03 what ramifications 06:05 that has on the Christian Church. 06:08 Well, we are actually following in the footsteps 06:12 of some other countries like Canada 06:14 and other countries in Europe. 06:16 And so potentially in the United States 06:19 as we're seeing in some of the other countries, 06:24 license must respect license and we're seeing this, 06:28 I think Denmark is one of these countries. 06:31 So in other words, 06:32 if a gay couple is granted a license to marry, 06:36 and a pastor has a license 06:38 from the government to practice ministry, 06:41 and the church is licensed, 06:44 then license must respect license. 06:46 So if a gay couple comes requesting 06:51 with a license to be married, 06:53 a licensed minister must respect that license. 06:57 He cannot say no and he must allow his church 07:01 to be used as well. 07:02 So what we have here developing 07:06 is a showdown between church and state. 07:09 And really a test of religion, a religious freedom is brewing. 07:14 And we know in the closing scenes 07:15 of this earth's history, 07:17 religious freedom is going to be annulled. 07:20 Every principle of the US Constitution 07:23 will be repudiated by the time it's all over. 07:26 And this to me is a head start. Right. 07:29 It's interesting to note that a lot of Christian churches 07:32 are accepting homosexual membership 07:35 and leadership in their churches. 07:37 And so, for a pastor, for a licensed pastor, 07:41 should they be respecting this license of gays to marry 07:45 and should they agree to perform gay weddings? 07:47 Well, this really is also a potential, 07:50 has the potential of being a real test for Christians 07:54 as to their loyalty to the Creator 07:56 who, you know, created marriage in the first place 08:00 as a loyalty to His perfect law. 08:02 You know, as Christians we should respect marriage 08:05 as a sacred institution, as one of two institutions 08:09 that come to us out of the Garden of Eden. 08:11 Twin institutions, both of them are sacred. 08:15 So there are various criteria governing 08:21 how pastors can conduct weddings, 08:23 at least in our denomination. 08:24 For example, the Bible says 08:26 we're not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. 08:31 It is our practice in our denomination, 08:34 and I am a pastor and as a pastor we don't, 08:37 we don't marry people of two different faiths. 08:40 I mean, of our denomination and another denomination. 08:43 We believe they should be equally yoked. 08:46 And also, we believe 08:48 that that marriage should be in harmony 08:52 with our biblical understanding of marriage. 08:55 And if we are performing a wedding, 08:58 the members of this marriage need to be in harmony 09:01 with the tenets of our faith with, as we understand, 09:05 you know, from our understanding 09:07 of the Bible. 09:08 Sure. Okay. 09:09 So basically what you're saying 09:11 is making the Bible the standard of our practices 09:15 in the church in regards to gay weddings. 09:17 Here again we have a showdown coming. 09:20 Our minister is going to give in to political correctness, 09:23 conventional thinking and even legislation. 09:27 And in doing so go against their own convictions, 09:31 their beliefs, their Bible understanding 09:33 and their religion. 09:35 Wow. Okay. 09:36 So should the church facility be accommodating 09:39 to gay weddings? 09:40 And if not, how can the church get around it? 09:43 Well, again, you know, as Christians we believe 09:47 that God's law trumps man's law. 09:50 And the higher law always trumps the lower law. 09:54 And throughout our own society, 09:56 in our country we see laws that are conflicting 10:00 with the higher law which is our US Constitution. 10:03 And when you have 10:05 this conflict between a lower law and a higher law, 10:09 the safest path is to always follow 10:12 the higher law. 10:13 And so when we understand that God's law is higher 10:16 than even the US Constitution then... 10:21 And so far I don't see, 10:23 I'm not a constitutional professor or an expert, 10:26 but I don't see 10:27 that our constitution in any way violates God's law. 10:31 But should it violate God's law, 10:34 then we as Christians are duty bound out of loyalty 10:39 to God to follow His law. 10:40 So where churches are concern and our facilities, 10:45 these are places of worship, 10:46 worshipping the true God in harmony with His will. 10:50 And we know how God feels biblically about homosexuality. 10:56 And so, we need in my estimation 11:00 to not allow this perversion of this sacred institution 11:05 to be taking place in our places of worship. 11:08 It's like bringing in the olden days 11:11 bringing idolatry into the temple. 11:13 God had a real problem with bringing perverted worship 11:18 into His temple 11:19 and any kind of perversion into the temple. 11:22 And as Christians we need to respect God's feelings 11:25 in this way. 11:26 It's interesting, Ron, 11:28 because you know coming out of gay culture 11:29 for both of us that it came with sacrifice. 11:32 There were many things 11:34 that we both had to turn away from to come out of that. 11:39 It's interesting because there's definitely 11:41 a strong promotion of homosexuality 11:43 in the Christian faith now. 11:46 And so, how difficult is that going to be 11:49 now that we have the court system 11:52 actually supporting gay marriage? 11:54 It may turn out to be very difficult, 11:57 but when we read in the Bible in Revelation 13, 12:00 there's going to be a final test for God's people. 12:04 And it has to do with worship, 12:06 it has to do with the law of God. 12:08 And I believe 12:10 that we're privileged actually to have a pretest to see 12:15 if we're ready for the final test. 12:17 I believe that Satan is testing God's people to see 12:21 if they will be loyal on one of the Ten Commandments 12:26 or the law of God all together. 12:28 So the way I see Satan working 12:31 is that if he can successfully redefine marriage 12:36 through legislation on a global basis 12:40 in violation of one of God's commandments, 12:43 then he can successfully redefine 12:46 any one of the Ten Commandments 12:48 through legislation on a global basis. 12:50 And as Seventh-day Adventist 12:52 we are concerned about that Fourth Commandment, 12:55 but it could be any commandment as Satan 12:57 successfully redefines points of God's law, 13:01 then he knows he can go full steam ahead. 13:05 On the other hand, 13:07 I see God testing His people too. 13:10 Are My people ready for this final test? 13:13 So let's see, yes. Hang on, hang on. 13:15 I want you to go back a little bit 13:16 and elaborate a little bit 13:18 more about the twin institutions 13:19 because I don't know 13:21 that you divided them up and made them very clear. 13:24 On the sixth day of creation, God created marriage. 13:27 And within that marriage He laid out the ground rules, 13:31 He defined what it was for 13:34 that man is to leave father and mother 13:38 and join himself, cleaved to his wife. 13:40 They two shall be one flesh. 13:42 That institution is sacred and it was created 13:44 just the day before the Sabbath 13:48 which is now in the heart of God's law 13:50 in the Fourth Commandment. 13:52 And so we see 13:53 that God is testing His people too. 13:56 Will we be willing to stand faithful 13:59 over the Seventh Commandment 14:01 which is not the final test for God's people. 14:04 But according to Luke 17 14:05 we know that as it was in the days of Lot, 14:09 it will be the same way in the day 14:11 that the Son of Man shall appear or be revealed. 14:13 So this is a part of the testing 14:16 before the coming of Jesus. 14:18 And God is testing to see, are we ready, 14:20 are we willing to lose our tax exempt status, 14:23 our government funding, our accreditation, 14:27 are we willing to stand faithful 14:29 for God's law though the heavens fall. 14:32 And if so, then I think God is saying okay, it's time, 14:36 My people are ready for the final test. 14:38 Wow. 14:40 So these twin institutions, it's interesting because, 14:42 you know, we've always heard the story that when one twin 14:45 is affected that the other one feels it, right? 14:48 If one twin gets hurt, the other one feels it. 14:50 And so I think it's important to realize the potential 14:54 of when one is affected, the next one is sure to come. 14:58 And so we know that through Bible prophecy 15:00 and it's amazing to me, 15:02 I'm still amazed that God was so merciful 15:04 even to us to help show us that light, 15:07 to help bring us out because I never thought 15:10 that I would ever be sitting here 15:12 having this discussion with someone else. 15:13 I thought that 15:15 I would totally be on that side, 15:16 I've been in gay pride marches, I have marched on Washington 15:19 when President Clinton was elected. 15:21 These would have been the things 15:23 that I would have celebrated. 15:24 And now, you know having come back to God, 15:27 it's very different for us now. 15:29 And you know, Mike, we as Christians don't need 15:32 to be frustrated and discouraged 15:35 by what we see happening. 15:37 We are to lift up our heads and rejoice, 15:38 the coming of Jesus is near. 15:41 And we are to stand faithful to God 15:44 when we see God's law being challenged 15:46 and being violated, 15:48 but we don't need to get down and out and discouraged 15:51 because these things must take place. 15:54 So as we are standing against 15:56 this whole idea of the perversion 15:58 of this institution of marriage, 16:01 we can also rejoice that Jesus is coming soon. 16:04 Amen. 16:06 So, Ron, what I want to do now 16:07 is I want to reach out to maybe parents 16:10 or siblings that may be watching 16:12 that are, you know, really discouraged 16:16 or even confused about, 16:17 should they attend their gay son's wedding 16:20 or to their brother, sister's wedding. 16:22 And I've been to other gay weddings 16:24 when I was in gay culture and thought, 16:26 you know, to myself, "Well, what's the difference. 16:29 You know if I just want to show them love 16:31 and even though 16:32 I may not support their gay marriage. 16:35 Would my attendance be considered hate 16:39 if I don't go, even though I love my brother, 16:42 my sister or my son or daughter, 16:45 what would you respond to somebody asking 16:47 that question, should they go. 16:49 And this does seem to be quite a conundrum 16:52 even within the Christian leadership. 16:55 And I read statements 16:56 where they are trying to address 16:58 this issue in a godly, compassionate, 17:02 understanding way. 17:04 But I see mistakes being made because it's being suggested 17:09 that this is a... 17:10 Should be a personal matter, 17:12 it's up to everyone to decide for himself. 17:15 And that is true, however having been there, 17:18 you and I had been on the other side of this issue, 17:21 having been there we see things 17:23 a little bit differently sometimes. 17:25 And I think God uses our experience to help us 17:28 really discern 17:29 the significance of such a situation. 17:32 And really as Christians I strongly urge Christians 17:37 to rethink this whole issue. 17:40 This is a sacred institution. It is being terribly perverted. 17:45 And to go to a gay wedding is similar 17:49 to when the three Hebrews were in the plain of Dura, 17:52 they were forced to attend 17:55 that celebration and that worship, 17:57 but had they bowed they could have said, 18:00 "Well, we're praying to our own God." 18:02 But what would have been the appearance, 18:04 no one would have known that. 18:06 And so, if we as Christians attend 18:09 a gay wedding, no one will know that we disapprove. 18:14 Our very presence is adding credibility 18:17 to this ceremony 18:19 which is a perversion of something God calls sacred, 18:22 God calls the gay behavior abomination. 18:28 We should be very, very careful about lending our presence, 18:32 our blessing, our affirmation to something 18:36 that God so clearly has labeled as an affront to Himself. 18:40 So can I stop you for a second 18:42 because I think it merits clarification 18:45 is while the Bible does not condemn 18:47 the homosexual, it condemns the behavior. 18:49 Yes. 18:51 So a gay union would be blessing the behavior. 18:55 Right. Okay. All right. 18:56 And we would be adding credibility 18:58 to that by attending that. 19:01 Right. Yes. 19:02 That's interesting. 19:04 You know, it's kind of neutral basically 19:06 when people would ask me this question and it wasn't 19:08 until you explained the difference 19:12 that it really started to open my eyes 19:14 about attending a gay wedding. 19:16 So let's take an example, you have gay parents, 19:19 I'm sorry, you have parents of a gay person 19:22 and they've now sent you an invitation to their wedding 19:26 and your gay son is going to marry his lover 19:29 and they've invited you to come. 19:31 How can you show the balance of love and compassion 19:35 without compromise, Ron? 19:37 And this is such an important question, Mike, 19:39 because parents are in terrible dilemma 19:41 as I talked to a couple recently 19:45 where the father stood his ground 19:48 and did not attend the wedding 19:49 but the mother all caught up in the emotion 19:52 and being the mother, 19:53 she didn't condone the wedding but she felt, 19:56 she just had to be there for her son. 19:59 And then they both called and they were both, 20:02 she was terribly remorseful 20:03 because she felt she had betrayed her Lord 20:06 in standing with her son. 20:09 But I had another family contact me 20:13 and we talked a long time about this issue. 20:16 And here's what they chose to do 20:18 after our conversation, 20:19 and I think it is such a good example 20:22 of how we as Christians can deal 20:24 with this because we are to be loving and compassionate 20:27 but not to compromise on God's principles. 20:31 So their son was getting married 20:33 in California 20:35 and the parents lived where I live. 20:38 And they decided 20:40 that they would fly out to California 20:43 before the wedding 20:44 and they spent a whole week out there 20:46 visiting their son and his partner 20:49 and they loved them, they went to dinner, 20:52 they went, they did all kinds of things together 20:54 on a secular level. 20:56 This is what Jesus did, Mike, He mingled with sinners 21:00 but He never participated in the sin 21:03 or participated in a service that would condone 21:06 or as show acceptance of that sin. 21:10 So they were out there 21:11 on the outside of the sacred ceremony, 21:14 spent a lot of time with their son and his partner, 21:17 they did not go to the wedding, they stayed till afterwards, 21:20 they did not go to the reception 21:22 but they stayed another week and spent more time. 21:25 So they were, they were excited 21:27 when they came home because they said, 21:30 you know, our son was not able to say 21:32 we were too cheap to come to this to see him 21:35 and he could not say we didn't love him enough 21:38 because we spent much more time 21:41 with him outside of the ceremony. 21:44 Loving, and understanding, and being compassionate, 21:47 and having a wonderful time together 21:49 outside of the perversion of a sacred institution. 21:52 And I thought that was a very good example 21:54 of how to handle this. 21:56 We can be loving and compassionate 21:58 without compromising our principles. 22:01 That's great explanation. 22:03 And that really helped me to understand, 22:05 I remember a situation where parents came up to us 22:09 where we were presenting. 22:10 And the father said 22:12 that he refused to have anything to do 22:14 with his daughter until she came to her senses 22:17 and came out of this relationship. 22:18 And what was so heartbreaking to me 22:20 was this father loved his daughter, 22:22 he was tearful 22:23 when he was even explaining his stand on that. 22:26 And he said that his daughter and her partner 22:30 had also adopted three children. 22:33 So now here's three young children, 22:35 you know, in this relationship 22:36 and it certainly wasn't their fault 22:38 and they, you could cite them just as much as a victim, 22:41 you know, in this situation. 22:43 And so here's a man who loves God, 22:45 who wants to serve God 22:47 but he'll have nothing to do with his daughter 22:48 until she comes to her senses. 22:50 So he thought that he was doing the right thing 22:52 and yet I thought to myself in my response to him, 22:56 how does that show the love of Jesus. 22:58 Exactly. 22:59 And then I think about those three children, 23:02 you know, that they don't have 23:04 an example of what a Christian man looks like. 23:07 And so I presented to him, I said, 23:09 how is that going against the Word of God to even say, 23:14 listen, let me take the kids for the weekend, 23:16 you know, why is that compromising 23:18 God's Word to make an investment in the lives 23:21 of those three children and show them 23:23 what a godly man looks like. 23:25 And also in an effort to win your daughter's heart, 23:27 you know, the Bible says 23:29 that a little child shall lead them 23:30 and so what if while this father 23:32 had those children with him 23:35 that he was able to share with them 23:36 who Jesus was in the Bible stories. 23:38 And imagine the impact that that could have 23:40 when those children went home again. 23:42 And again, one of the things that really worked for us, Ron, 23:45 was not somebody, 23:47 you know, shouting at us about how homosexuality 23:51 is against God and all this 23:53 but when somebody was just lifting up Jesus, 23:56 how that impressed us, how that drew us to them. 23:59 And so rather than making the focus about my lifestyle 24:02 or who I'm living with or who I'm married to. 24:04 Imagine the power that this man 24:06 would have if he invested in his daughter's life 24:09 not in a way to condone their behavior 24:12 but in a way to be redemptive not only to his daughter 24:15 but her partner and then also to those children as well. 24:17 Yes. 24:19 And we know that the most powerful witness 24:20 for truth is a loving and lovable Christian. 24:24 And how can you be that 24:26 if you isolate yourself from those that you love? 24:30 We do not have to compromise our principles to be involved 24:34 in the life of these, our family and our friends. 24:38 You know, it's, it is going to be a very difficult time. 24:41 I believe it's already starting, 24:43 how is it that we can still be compassionate 24:46 to this community. 24:48 You know, people say that we're haters. 24:50 How can we hate homosexuals when that's where we came from, 24:53 we have, we have friends, 24:55 we have exes that are still in that lifestyle. 24:58 It breaks my heart to think 25:00 that that they don't have an opportunity 25:03 to know who Jesus is. 25:04 And I know that for me, one of the things 25:06 that was really the most powerful was somebody 25:08 who really lived, 25:10 you know, a Christ like life that didn't compromise, 25:13 but on the same side it ministered to me in a way 25:16 that wasn't, 25:18 that wasn't directed at my sexuality, 25:20 but instead was directed at my spirituality 25:23 and my need of Christ. 25:24 Right. 25:26 So, Ron, we have just a couple more minutes. 25:28 Do you have anything 25:29 that you'd like to share as we conclude? 25:32 Yes. 25:33 I just like the question, 25:35 what would Jesus do in this type of situation? 25:38 Well, we have an example of what Jesus would do. 25:40 He blessed a wedding with His presence, 25:44 a wedding that was conducted in harmony 25:47 with what He created in the Garden of Eden. 25:50 So He condoned, He blessed with His presence. 25:54 And at the reception they ran out of the wine 25:59 and He performed His first miracle there. 26:01 What a wedding gift to this new bride and groom. 26:07 And so He performed that first miracle, 26:09 we know how He feels about this marriage that He created. 26:13 He even said Himself, He reiterated 26:16 that a man should leave his father and mother 26:19 and cleave unto his wife, they both should become one. 26:22 But it's hard for me to imagine 26:26 that Jesus would attend a gay wedding 26:29 and bless a gay wedding in the same way 26:32 because He doesn't change, 26:34 He's expressed very plainly through His Word 26:37 how He feels about 26:38 this perversion of the beautiful thing 26:40 He created in the Garden of Eden. 26:43 So I don't believe, 26:45 I cannot picture in my mind Jesus doing the same thing 26:49 at a gay wedding and blessing 26:51 that with such a beautiful gift 26:54 as His presence and miracles. 26:57 You know, I had an opportunity at a place 27:00 that I was presenting to, actually meet a gay couple 27:03 that had actually found the Lord 27:06 and decided that on their own, 27:08 through their own Bible study that this was not in agreement 27:10 with God's Word and they separated. 27:12 So even the power of God's Word has a convicting influence 27:17 but also a drawing influence as well. 27:20 I think it's important to note that even at the first, 27:23 the wedding where Jesus attended 27:24 that was where He performed His first miracle 27:27 to bless and sanctify the institution of marriage. 27:30 So thanks, Ron, for helping to unpack this timely issue 27:35 about whether we as Christians 27:37 should be attending the gay wedding or not. 27:40 I think that a lot of people are struggling 27:42 with their position on that 27:44 and how to move forward to still show 27:46 the love of Jesus in that process. 27:48 Right. All right. 27:49 So thank you for joining us here 27:50 on Pure Choices. 27:52 And stay tuned, there be many more programs 27:55 that you're going to enjoy. 27:56 Thanks again, Ron. Yes, thanks. |
Revised 2018-07-03