Pure Choices

Christian Homosexuality

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Mike Carducci (Host), Wayne Blakely (Host), Raymond King, Ron Woolsey

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Series Code: PC

Program Code: PC000032


00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues.
00:03 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:05 may be too candid for younger children.
00:41 Hi, I'm Mike Carducci with Coming Out Ministries,
00:44 your host on "Pure Choices."
00:46 Today, I have with me my other members
00:48 from Coming Out Ministries,
00:50 Ron Woolsey, who is also a pastor
00:52 and Wayne Blakely.
00:53 My name is Mike Carducci and our special guest today
00:56 also is Elder Raymond King.
00:58 I want to thank you, gentlemen, for being here today.
01:01 Our topic today is "Christian Homosexuality."
01:05 Wayne, Ron and I have come from the gay lifestyle,
01:09 as experiencing the restoration and redemption
01:13 through Jesus Christ,
01:14 we have a ministry of reaching out
01:16 to not only the homosexual community
01:18 but also to those in church culture
01:20 who may be looking for opportunities
01:23 and ways to reach out to the homosexual
01:26 and to those that have been sexually defiled
01:28 in our church and in our communities.
01:30 So today, we want to talk about Christian homosexuality
01:33 and I'll begin with the first question.
01:36 Within the gay community, there's a significant number
01:39 who refer to themselves as gay Christians.
01:42 Obviously many homosexuals do love the Lord.
01:45 They love their church, they love the fellowship
01:48 and want to hang on to their Christian roots.
01:50 Is there a problem here?
01:52 I believe there's a problem here
01:54 simply because Jesus himself said in Matthew 7:21
02:00 "Not every one that saith unto me,
02:02 Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."
02:05 And so when we attached the, the name Christian to a sin,
02:13 it's kind of like baptizing sin
02:16 or, you know, we talk about
02:18 baptizing paganism in our history.
02:22 We don't, we don't accept terms like Christian drugs
02:28 or Christian adultery or Christian pedophilia
02:33 and all of that and yet,
02:35 you know, like the question states here,
02:38 many homosexuals are hanging on to their church roots
02:42 and there are legitimate reasons for doing so,
02:45 that the term Christian, we need to analyze
02:49 what does it mean to be a Christian
02:51 and can you truly be a Christian and a homosexual.
02:54 I mean, that's kind of the way I picture this,
02:59 to me it's kind of an oxymoron that you--
03:02 How can you be a Christian and a homosexual
03:06 or how could you be a Christian adulterer,
03:08 a Christian murderer, you know, and that type of thing.
03:12 So to me it's something that is a viable discussion.
03:16 Now I have to add to that also if you--
03:22 First you have to come to an agreement that,
03:24 that term gay connotate sin
03:28 and if you haven't arrived at that,
03:30 then you probably won't see it as an, as an oxymoron.
03:33 But when someone comes out the way we used to come out,
03:38 not like this ministry today
03:40 which is the true coming out of darkness
03:42 but when we came out in our old life,
03:45 we declared that we were gay which indicated
03:48 that we wanted to have--
03:51 If we had intimacy, it would be the desire
03:53 of intimacy with the same sex.
03:56 Well, if we look throughout God's Word,
03:58 there's no support for that.
03:59 Nowhere in God's Word does God condone
04:03 or direct us to a same-sex intimate relationship.
04:08 And so why would I...
04:10 As a Christian I can't understand
04:13 why I would attach the word gay to Christian
04:16 because it truly is as I've described
04:18 that the reason why it really is an oxymoron
04:22 and the same also with someone who let's say they--
04:26 You know, we know that adultery is a sin,
04:29 you wouldn't come back into the church
04:31 redeemed from by Jesus Christ
04:34 and come back and identify as a Christian adulterer
04:39 or as Paul in the Bible who used to kill Christians
04:45 as a redeemed Christian, he didn't identify
04:48 as a Christian killing Christian.
04:50 And so it doesn't really make any sense.
04:52 Okay, so let me play
04:55 the other side just a little bit.
04:56 What if somebody identifies as gay
04:59 but they're still willing to come to church,
05:01 you know, isn't that something that
05:03 should be consider helpful?
05:07 I think it's important to also and loop your question,
05:12 there are lot of individuals
05:14 who have a same-gender attraction
05:18 but they're not acting on that attraction
05:21 and they've been told that if you just have that,
05:24 that desire or the attraction,
05:26 then you're homosexual or you are gay.
05:29 That is not the truth
05:31 and I think it's important for us to understand that
05:34 there are people who are Christians,
05:36 who are struggling with that same-gender attraction
05:40 but they are still Christians.
05:41 They are different from those who have embraced the desire
05:47 and are acting on the desire and still are expecting God
05:51 to accept them in that lifestyle.
05:54 So it is very, very important I think because when we,
05:58 there's gentlemen by the name of Justin,
05:59 he is the director of the Gay Christian Network
06:03 and I'll talk with him personally
06:06 and even in that that organization
06:10 there are two trend of thought.
06:11 There are "homosexuals" who believe that
06:16 God accept them in their completeness
06:18 and I mean, been intimate with each other
06:21 but yet another group that say as well,
06:23 "Yet I may have this attraction but God did not allow me
06:27 to act on it even in that organization."
06:29 So I think it's important that we differentiate
06:32 between those who are call themselves "gay Christians"
06:37 because they act on it as well as opposed adults
06:40 who call themselves gay Christians
06:41 because they are told that 'cause of their desire
06:44 that they are gay and that's not,
06:46 that's not true.
06:47 You know, it's interesting about that
06:48 that one is a giving in
06:51 and the other one is a surrender.
06:52 Okay.
06:54 I think that's an important delineation.
06:57 I was going to build on that very thought there
06:59 because when I was trying to come back to the Lord,
07:03 I was sin sick.
07:04 You know, I had that enmity in my heart for who I was
07:09 and my life of shame and degradation.
07:13 And when I was coming to the Lord,
07:15 I was wanting to distance myself from that identity.
07:19 I wanted salvation from it. I wanted to come out of it.
07:23 I didn't want to forever be labeled
07:26 as something that I hated.
07:28 And so if we hate sin which, you know,
07:31 God wants to give us that hatred for sin
07:35 and if we hate it,
07:36 why do we want to carry that label around?
07:39 And so we probably need to,
07:41 you know, look at the term Christian,
07:43 what does it mean if a homosexual
07:46 is coming to the Lord to become a Christian,
07:50 what does that mean to become a Christian?
07:54 And to me, we have to look at the definition of Christian,
07:57 what does that mean.
07:59 You know, Ron, I'm glad you brought that up
08:01 because as we've been dialoguing,
08:03 I think about my own experience.
08:05 I came into the church, I got baptized
08:08 while I still had a boyfriend and a sexual addiction
08:11 and I know that people may have been
08:15 picking up on my mannerisms
08:16 or some of the overt stuff but truly I...
08:20 All I knew is that Jesus love me for who I was
08:22 and He had given me the invitation
08:24 to accept His grace.
08:26 I accepted it, thinking that God was going
08:28 to accept me in my homosexual identity
08:31 and as I got baptized I came up
08:33 out of the water hoping that well,
08:34 you know, may be He could change me
08:36 but obviously when I came up I was still a sexual addict
08:38 and with a boyfriend.
08:40 But God began this journey with me
08:42 and as I continued to accept the knowledge that I had,
08:45 I continue to grow and to understand more
08:48 of His grace and how that work.
08:49 It was several months before
08:51 I recognize that the Bible was saying that
08:53 it was an abomination which again threw me
08:55 into a tailspin wondering, how could He even address this
08:58 when all my life I thought that
09:00 that was how I was born and who I was.
09:03 I even thought as far as that God had created me that way.
09:07 But again as I continue to walk with God,
09:10 you know, He brought me
09:11 into more and more understanding,
09:13 not necessarily by resources through the church
09:16 but by studying His Word and reading Spirit of Prophecy
09:19 to find that there were promises there
09:22 that I could hold on to.
09:24 And so for church member
09:27 who would have an open homosexual in their church,
09:30 what's their criteria,
09:32 if they would have known that I was in a gay relationship,
09:34 I'm sure that they would not have baptized me.
09:36 But again what comes to my mind is that thing--
09:39 In the Bible, the verse in the Bible that says,
09:41 "My ways are not your ways,
09:42 My thoughts are not your thoughts."
09:44 And I believe that Jesus knew
09:45 that I was so broken down with my relationship with men
09:48 that what He had to do is he had to hook me
09:50 into the understanding that He accepted me
09:52 for who I was which is truth but not all the truth.
09:55 And as I started to walk with Him legitimately,
09:57 He started to reveal Himself to me
09:59 as someone I could love and trust in.
10:01 As that grew, I was able to handle more information.
10:04 But again, doesn't that create a dilemma
10:07 then in our church culture, you know, at what point
10:10 do we accept homosexuals into our church
10:12 and this understanding of gay Christian?
10:15 You touched on something there
10:16 that I think we should build on as a, as a panel here.
10:20 And you said something about beginning a journey
10:24 and that's what the Christian life is.
10:27 When you accept Christ, you are becoming a Christian
10:31 which means you're accepting Him
10:33 as Lord and Master.
10:35 It's like you're entering a school,
10:37 a school of discipleship--
10:40 Discipleship you enter the discipline
10:43 not the spanking, not the punishing,
10:45 but a school of training of education.
10:50 And you follow that instructor,
10:53 that Leader your Lord and your Master.
10:55 You feed on every word He says, you incorporated, you digested,
11:00 you assimilated, it becomes a part of you.
11:02 And so my understanding of being a Christian is,
11:07 you are now entering a life
11:10 where you are patterning yourself
11:12 after that Lord and Master.
11:15 And so to resist that,
11:20 to hang on to your homosexuality
11:22 is not entering that school of discipleship,
11:25 it's bringing the baggage with you
11:28 carrying it with you on a journey
11:30 and for and refusing to let it go.
11:33 I think that's also, you know, that what you're saying
11:36 there is beginning to lay the groundwork
11:38 for the church, the sanctuary.
11:42 You know, we don't...
11:43 We expect people in the past to have lost their spots
11:46 before they enter the church doors.
11:49 And so I think this is starting to say that
11:51 "Yes, gays need to be welcome to come into the church"
11:54 because where are you going to learn
11:56 if you're not going to learn
11:58 in the presence of God and His believers.
12:00 Yes, yes.
12:01 So as well defined members of the church,
12:06 it used to be that you would say,
12:08 "I don't know, you know,
12:09 because they're gonna be an influence
12:11 on my young one or that,
12:13 you know, like it might rub off.
12:15 Well, there's a difference between
12:17 someone who's in a membership position
12:19 and someone who is coming, who is thirsty, who is hungry.
12:22 And so I think if we would take the approach
12:25 again of reflecting the love of Jesus Christ,
12:28 loving the person not with a judgmental attitude,
12:32 but by continuing to present His grace, His mercy,
12:36 His beauty, His truth
12:37 and to invite that person into a loving relationship
12:40 with Jesus Christ where we can study things out together.
12:44 And the Bible asks us
12:45 to come together and reason together.
12:48 And so if you're worried about your children,
12:51 make sure that your representation to your children
12:53 is in a way that you're inviting them
12:55 into the same relationship with Jesus
12:58 as you're inviting the gay couple
13:00 or the gay people that might be coming into the church.
13:04 My concern is if we never address it,
13:09 then we allow humanity to accept
13:14 the erroneous statement and erroneous labeling.
13:22 If you see a gay Christian, there are lot of Christians
13:26 who love the Lord and they're not even sure--
13:29 Who they are. Who they are...
13:31 Or if you can't be a Christian and be gay
13:33 because we don't address in the church.
13:35 So I'm saying-- I think that
13:36 it's important that we actually start to address this
13:40 because it's important not only for the sake
13:43 of those who want to minister to these individuals
13:46 but it's important for those individuals
13:48 If I'm told by and, you know, the law of forming churches.
13:54 If I'm told by these churches well,
13:56 you can be homosexual and God will accept you
14:00 and I had no counterbalance, then I'm gonna believe that lie
14:03 because obviously that's a easier lifestyle
14:07 to embrace than to break off the whole practice.
14:11 So I also admit that we have to start
14:14 dealing within the church, so that we can educate people
14:18 enough where they will accept that lie about
14:21 being a practicing homosexual
14:23 and a Christian at the same time.
14:25 We need to listen, you know, look at the words
14:27 of I think John the Baptist who was confronting people
14:31 who were wanting to be baptized.
14:33 And as I recall he was speaking to Pharisees
14:36 and various people who were wanting to be baptized
14:40 because it was a popular thing to do.
14:42 And he says, no, no, no.
14:43 He said, "Bring forth fruit meet for repentance."
14:46 In other words before you take this step,
14:48 you need to demonstrate
14:50 that you're willing to let things go.
14:51 Repentance means that you are,
14:53 you're going to change your life.
14:55 You...
14:56 It doesn't mean that you're perfect.
14:58 Repentance means you're submissive,
15:00 you're willing to be transformed
15:03 and if you bring forth
15:05 and demonstrate through your life
15:07 that you are willing to let things go
15:10 and you're willing to grow in Christ,
15:13 then you are ready for baptism.
15:17 But if you're bringing that with you,
15:19 you're not willing to let it go
15:20 and you're constantly identifying with that sin,
15:23 you had this perpetual negative reinforcement
15:27 always calling yourself homosexual,
15:29 you'll never rise above that
15:31 if you're constantly reinforcing it in your mind.
15:34 And, you know, when I wrote my book,
15:36 I was asked to use a pen name for my protection
15:40 because another author had been tracked down
15:44 and his house was burned to the ground
15:46 for even addressing the gay issue.
15:49 And so I spent more time coming up with the pen name
15:52 than in writing the book actually,
15:54 but I came up with the name Victor J Adamson.
15:58 I was contracted on radio talk shows
16:00 around the nation for three years
16:02 always being called Victor.
16:03 Well, what did that do for me? I was...
16:06 I became known as Victor, positive reinforcement.
16:09 Everyday I was being called Victor, Victor, Victor
16:13 and now I had a name to live up to
16:15 and I had to make sure that I die daily to Christ
16:18 and that I was submissive to Christ
16:20 because suppose I had a major fall,
16:23 what would that do to that name Victor?
16:25 How would that reproach Christ?
16:27 I'm taking His name as a Christian
16:29 and I didn't want to do that.
16:31 And so I had to let the gay thing go
16:33 and, you know, we will never rise above
16:38 the goal we set for ourselves.
16:40 And so Victor is a goal
16:42 and to me it was important to let
16:46 all of those other things go, get rid of them,
16:48 let them be washed away.
16:51 You know, I've been noticing
16:52 a Christian cultural change today
16:57 which is really called affirmation theology
17:01 versus reformation theology.
17:04 and so, I talk to people today about the feel-good messages
17:08 that come from many pulpits that affirm you who you are.
17:12 Jesus loves you just the way you are.
17:15 You don't need to do anything.
17:17 You don't need to change but and the fact of the matter
17:20 is that absolutely Jesus does love you
17:22 just the way you are,
17:24 but He doesn't want to leave you there.
17:25 Exactly. Yeah.
17:27 And so as we come to know Jesus Christ,
17:29 a reformation will take place,
17:31 but if we don't begin to speak from the platforms
17:34 or in our Bible studies or in our prayer meetings
17:38 about what is possible through Jesus Christ,
17:40 then we run the risk of rewriting
17:43 the Word of God according to the flesh.
17:45 The Bible says,
17:46 "Woe unto him who call of evil good, and good evil."
17:50 My concern is what about the publications, the media,
17:56 even the movies that are coming out
17:59 are trying to legitimize the oxymoron of gay Christian.
18:04 My concern is what damage is that doing
18:07 for the person who is really struggling?
18:09 Are we giving permission now to let go to struggle
18:12 and to embrace what the perversion?
18:15 This is the danger in my mind, this is the struggle
18:18 for me as I see things being like this
18:20 being proliferated across Christianity
18:23 through our churches and through our universities.
18:25 What happens when you have people,
18:27 who are going forward with a loud message
18:31 that about something
18:33 that they really don't know a whole lot about?
18:35 You know, you're bound
18:37 to bite off and chew and swallow
18:40 the very first thing that's given to you
18:43 rather than studying something out.
18:45 And the Hollywood type of approach
18:47 to something like that can be done
18:48 in such a way that great sympathy
18:51 is put out there for the person who has suffered the isolation,
18:55 the rejection and the alienation
18:57 and it grounds them in their sin
19:00 instead of what's possible through Jesus Christ.
19:03 If the believer doesn't understand
19:04 what's being done to them,
19:06 basically they're being brainwashed.
19:08 This also seems to have an application
19:12 even in our colleges and universities.
19:15 We have a forum that's on the internet
19:17 where we've actually been dialoguing
19:20 with a professor from a university
19:22 that is actually calling himself a gay Christian.
19:25 And what's amazing to us is a teacher who has tenure
19:30 in a Christian school
19:32 is actually promoting this understanding
19:34 that he is a gay celibate Christian.
19:37 A Christian school. Right. Right.
19:38 And that, that the theology that I have is going
19:43 to cause gays and lesbians to commit suicide.
19:47 And so it was a difficult struggle
19:49 to have this continued dialogue back and forth
19:53 because I felt that the professor
19:57 began to accept his feelings to equal truth
20:01 and couldn't find any really biblical backing
20:04 to help me realized that
20:06 what he was stating was biblical truth.
20:08 It really was just based upon what his feelings were.
20:11 And so it's really sad to see someone be able
20:14 to go to class and to tell this
20:15 to multiple individuals while I'm having difficulty
20:19 a lot of times getting on to the university
20:22 or into the church talking about
20:24 what Jesus Christ has done in my life
20:26 and that I know through my own experience,
20:29 as we know from our experiences
20:30 what Jesus has done in our lives,
20:33 but people don't want to hear it, sometimes
20:35 because it won't affirm their feelings,
20:37 leaving them where they are.
20:41 The political issue and that is we have churches,
20:46 Christian schools who are embracing this
20:49 it embolden the politicians to continue to force feed
20:55 this whole thing about it be a natural
20:57 and normal on our society.
21:00 I'm reminded when we went through
21:03 our just recent presidential situation
21:06 and you know that the NAACP was real supportive
21:11 of same gender marriage and what have you.
21:14 One of the guys that,
21:16 that I dialogued with made the statement,
21:18 he said, "I could never support something
21:21 that I fought so hard to be delivered from."
21:25 And that's so significant when we get statement,
21:28 but the question is,
21:30 if the church does not stand up and be delight,
21:36 then we have other religious organizations
21:39 that call themselves Christian in church
21:40 and what have you, they're promoting
21:42 this counterfeit and that will have
21:45 a devastating effect on our society.
21:47 This pendulum has swung so far the other way
21:50 that we even have heard a story of a woman
21:53 who is married to a pastor in our denomination
21:57 whose son was in the gay lifestyle.
21:59 Her son now since has left the gay lifestyle, got married,
22:03 had a child with this woman is married and happy
22:06 and his mother still promotes
22:08 that he is gay and he is in a...
22:10 Well, that the dialogue and about the comment
22:15 about the son was made is that God does not approve
22:18 of mixed orientation marriage.
22:20 That he is still gay even he is married with a child
22:22 and she's our pastor's wife.
22:24 So the idea is that he's living a lie.
22:27 Right. Lord, have mercy.
22:28 And that to me negates the whole concept
22:32 of being transformed by the renewing of the mind
22:36 and we're told that we are to be transformed,
22:39 not conformed to our tendencies in the world
22:42 but to be transform the whole thing about
22:45 becoming a Christian
22:46 and which is what we're talking about
22:48 is about being recreated,
22:52 reformed, transformed, rehabilitated, reconciled
22:59 and I have heard from,
23:02 I'm sure well-intentioned people
23:05 that they don't need to worry about their homosexuality,
23:09 they just need to be Christ-like.
23:12 And so they can be a Christian homosexual,
23:14 they just need to be Christ-like
23:16 and so immediately I say well, what was Christ-like?
23:20 If we're going to be Christ-like as Christians,
23:23 what was Christ-like.
23:25 And we can know through His life
23:27 but also He is revealed through His Word
23:31 and so we can hang on every Word of God.
23:34 That reveals what Christ was like,
23:36 it also reveals what He likes and what He does not like
23:41 and He makes it very plain
23:43 how He feels about sexual perversion of any kind
23:46 and many other sin issues.
23:48 So, gentlemen, I want to bring
23:49 this kind of to a conclusion and you started it, Ron.
23:53 So my next question is
23:55 "Acceptance into true Christianity
23:57 than conditional and if so, upon what criteria?
24:01 Then is there hope for the homosexual
24:04 in relationship to Christianity?"
24:06 And you started to touch on that
24:07 and I just wondered if we get,
24:09 you know, kind of end on that note to,
24:11 you know, to show the redemptive part.
24:13 I think it's important to recognize
24:16 our needed of a Redeemer
24:17 because if I'm fine just the way I am,
24:20 why do I need a Redeemer for.
24:22 All right. So it is a matter of...
24:25 It's a matter of coming to Jesus,
24:27 you know, that we here have talked about.
24:28 If I don't group myself
24:31 with other people around me who have similar attractions
24:35 or similar temptations and live in that,
24:38 but if I personally come to Jesus
24:41 and search His will for me through His Word,
24:45 I begin to see my need of a Savior
24:47 and that I constantly need to surrender
24:50 and to abide in Him
24:52 to have any change take place in my life.
24:54 You know in the story of the jailer at Philippi
24:56 when Paul and Silas were in prison
24:58 and they had a great earthquake
25:00 and the jailer came in
25:02 and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
25:05 The answer that Paul gave the jailer is so significant.
25:09 First of all we need to know what being saved is,
25:13 Jesus very name means deliverer.
25:15 You should call His name Jesus,
25:17 for He shall save His people from their sins.
25:19 That's right.
25:21 But Paul's answer to the jailer was,
25:23 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,
25:25 and thou shalt be saved."
25:27 And so I looked up the meaning Lord, quite often in the Bible
25:31 refers to Jehovah the Great I Am,
25:33 the Self Exist and Eternal One.
25:35 Jesus, Deliverer, Savior from what?
25:39 From sin.
25:40 And Christ, our Messiah, the Anointed One,
25:43 you put that all together and it's so beautiful,
25:46 believe on the Great Eternal I Am,
25:49 the Self Existent One,
25:51 your Creator anointed by the Holy Spirit
25:53 to be your personal savior from sin
25:56 and you shall be saved from sin,
25:59 even the sin of homosexuality.
26:02 Acknowledge your iniquity
26:03 and I will heal your backsliding God says.
26:06 So we need to understand
26:08 when we come to Christ as Christians,
26:10 we are coming to be saved from something.
26:14 If we call Him Savior, just calling Him Savior
26:18 acknowledges that we need to be saved from something.
26:22 And John 3:16 again
26:25 you know, comes back and asks us to believe in Him
26:28 that if we will believe in Him
26:30 instead of believing in self that He offers us eternal life.
26:35 I'm just impressed with your ministry
26:37 because you individuals are proof
26:41 that Christ can change, Christ will change
26:45 and you also proved that
26:46 you do not carry your past experiences
26:51 and your path labels once you become a new creature.
26:54 So you are all a proof
26:56 and you all be the glory to God.
26:58 And, Elder King, we are excited.
27:00 You know the amount of grace
27:02 that was poured out on our behalf
27:04 of coming out of this lifestyle,
27:06 imagine the confusion from our earliest years
27:09 of struggling with same-sex attraction
27:11 and the misunderstanding of God's grace
27:13 and now to have it poured out and to be redeemed from that,
27:16 we don't want homosexual attached to any part of that.
27:20 As a matter of fact, I believe that
27:21 if we kept that attachment that,
27:23 that cheapens the power of Jesus Christ
27:26 on the cross to overcome every sin.
27:28 Amen.
27:29 And so in conclusion, we definitely believe
27:33 that the word homosexual or gay
27:35 should not be associated with Christian
27:37 especially because of the biblical truths that,
27:39 that were pinching for us at first.
27:42 They were very difficult for me
27:44 especially because I wanted to keep my boyfriend
27:47 but through His grace, He's redeemed me
27:48 and I want to thank you, gentlemen,
27:50 for coming on this episode of Pure Choices.
27:52 Come back again and join us soon.


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Revised 2016-02-18