Participants: Jennifer Jill Schwirzer (Host), David Guerrero, Nicole Parker, Paul Coneff, Shelley Wiggins
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC000016A
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00:25 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors
00:28 where we admit the damage 00:29 because we know that can be healed. 00:32 Today, we're going to be talking about surviving sexual trauma, 00:37 surviving sexual trauma... heavy topic... 00:39 but we're going to try to do it justice... by the grace of God. 00:43 Sexual trauma is the lingering result of sexual abuse 00:47 and often this takes the form 00:49 of what we call "Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder" 00:51 PTSD is characterized by three things, 00:55 nightmares, flashbacks, 00:57 and what we call "extreme triggerability. " 01:00 Whenever that person gets 01:02 confronted with something that reminds them 01:04 of the sexual abuse event, 01:07 they go back there, so to speak, in their mind. 01:09 It's thought that the symptoms 01:11 are the brain's way of trying to process that trauma 01:15 that it somehow hasn't gotten fully processed 01:17 and the brain keeps bringing it to mind 01:20 in order to process it through. 01:22 The prevalence of sexual abuse is higher than you would think. 01:25 One in three women globally 01:28 are either raped, beaten or coerced into sex. 01:33 One in 5 girls and one in 20 boys in the US 01:38 are victims of child sexual abuse, 01:41 you know, sexual trauma occurs 01:45 when essentially... if I were to boil it down... 01:47 when someone... a greater power... 01:50 a power advantage over another, uses that power 01:54 to fulfill sexual desires... 01:57 and that person then becomes a victim. 01:59 They do it without consent 02:01 or they do it with uninformed consent. 02:04 So the fact that the person that's being violated 02:07 did not physically fight 02:09 doesn't mean that they were not abused. 02:11 If it's a child or a person who is in another way "vulnerable" 02:15 mentally retarded... mentally ill... 02:18 or much less power than a perpetrator, 02:21 if there's a severe power imbalance, 02:23 that's really uninformed consent, 02:26 even if they don't fight. 02:27 So we need to understand 02:29 the subtleties involved in sexual abuse. 02:31 Most of these assaults, by-the-way 02:34 are never reported 02:36 because the victims fear 02:37 that if they go before a tribunal of people 02:40 that often reminds them of the perpetrator, 02:42 in one way or another, 02:44 they're the same demographic, so to speak, 02:46 the same thing is going to happen all over again 02:48 because they're not going to be believed. 02:50 So one of the most important things we can do for victims 02:53 is, we can listen to their story and we can believe them 02:57 at least temporarily until we have evidence to the contrary 03:02 so, often victims are a part of a System that works very hard 03:07 to sustain the reputation of the perpetrator... 03:09 the perpetrator is often almost indispensable 03:12 or apparently indispensable to that System 03:15 and, therefore, they are preferred over the victim 03:18 and it's easier to disbelieve the victim 03:21 and believe the perpetrator. 03:22 So, these are some of the tragedies involved 03:25 in sexual abuse situations 03:27 and we're going to have a very good friend of mine 03:29 unpack this for us today, 03:31 I'm really thankful to have you here, Nicole Parker. 03:34 Nicole is a Counselor... Biblical Counselor... 03:37 Master's degree in Biblical Counseling, correct? 03:39 Hmmm... hmmm... 03:40 You live in Tennessee with your husband, Allan, 03:43 and he teaches Theology at University 03:47 and you just help... 03:49 just about every person that comes to you 03:51 from what I know about you 03:53 and you raise your children, they're in Tennessee. 03:55 I try my best. 03:56 I'm so thankful to have you here, 03:57 let me also introduce the Counselors on our Panel today, 04:00 we have Marriage and Family Therapist, Paul Coneff, 04:04 we have Licensed Professional Counselor... 04:06 oh no, I'm sorry, you're from Texas... 04:08 and Licensed Professional Counselor, 04:10 Shelly Wiggins from Michigan 04:12 and Biblical Counselor, David Guerrero from Wisconsin 04:15 we're so thankful to have each one of you here today 04:19 and we want to get into the story 04:21 right away here, when did this start? 04:24 I'm not really sure how old I was 04:27 I know I was very small 04:28 because I can remember reaching up to 04:30 turn off light switches and things like that 04:32 but my abuser died when I was ten 04:35 and it happened for several years before that, 04:37 there were multiple incidents of abuse 04:39 and because he was a close caregiver, 04:42 he was a family member, not my father but... 04:45 the only other close family member who I trusted... 04:50 the only other man that I trusted 04:51 so it was very traumatic to me. 04:53 Jennifer: Oh, that breaks my heart, Nicole, 04:56 what kind of effect... how did it play out? 04:59 Nicole: Well, you know, I was able to function fairly well... 05:02 I mean, I struggled with depression 05:04 and I've looked through some of my report cards 05:06 and I know that my fifth- and sixth-grade teacher 05:09 noted that my depression was affecting my behavior, 05:11 and my ability to function 05:13 but most of the time, people just chalked it up to, 05:16 "She's too ADD to be able to function very well... " 05:19 when I was 15 I... 05:20 Jennifer: They though you had ADD? 05:22 Nicole: Yeah, my neighbor re-traumatized me when I was 15 05:25 by attempting to drag me into his house to assault me 05:28 and that was when things really started happening in my mind. 05:32 I... on the way home from being at that neighbor's house 05:36 because I just had gone over to invite him over for supper 05:39 and walking home from there, I prayed... 05:41 I remember... and I was so angry at God 05:44 and I just screamed at Him, 05:45 I don't even remember if it was out loud or in my mind, 05:48 I'll never forget... 05:49 I just said, "What kind of God are you? 05:51 What kind of Father are you 05:52 that you let that stuff happen to your kids?" 05:54 And I said, "I don't know what kind of God you are 05:56 but I'm through with this stupid 'Trust God' thing 05:58 because you never take care of me, 06:00 I always have to take care of myself. " 06:01 Jennifer: You were raised in a religious home right? 06:03 Nlcole: Yeah, I grew up going to church every week 06:05 we had family worships all the time 06:07 nobody knew... because I didn't tell my parents 06:11 I didn't tell anybody what was going on, 06:13 nobody knew what I was going through... 06:15 that I had these nightmares, 06:16 I would freak out every time my boyfriend would touch me 06:20 and I would just go cold inside with fear and anger 06:24 but I had no idea what was really going on, 06:27 I had no understanding of abuse and the trauma 06:29 that comes from it 06:31 and from that moment on, when I prayed that prayer, 06:35 even though I look back now and I realize 06:37 God gave me the strength to fight that man, 06:39 I fought him at his door, I held on to his door frame, 06:42 I got away from him... 06:44 all he managed to do was kiss me... 06:46 Jennifer: This was the second guy, right? 06:47 Nicole: With the neighbor man but still, I blamed God, 06:50 and that's what we always like to do, 06:52 you know, "If you were just loving enough, 06:54 if you were just strong enough, you would have protected me. " 06:56 I didn't understand. 06:58 Jennifer: And the weird thing is that God can take it... 07:00 He understands that we have limited ability 07:03 to process these extreme events and He can... 07:07 He can take it when we get that angry. 07:09 He never left me. 07:11 Nicole: But from that moment on, 07:13 I began having more anxiety issues, 07:15 I started having panic attacks 07:16 which I didn't know what a panic attack was... 07:18 I had never heard of anything like that, 07:19 I just thought I was crazy. 07:21 Shelly: When you're holding in all of those emotions, 07:23 whether it's sad, fear, anger, and then, in a pressure cooker 07:27 that's what creates that panic... 07:29 Nicole: Right, all sin starts 07:31 with a cycle of unbelief and pride. 07:33 If I think God can't take care of me 07:36 or won't take care of me because He's not loving enough 07:38 I'm going to decide that I'll have to step in 07:40 and be God... which is pride... 07:41 and all abuse is a strong temptation 07:45 toward unbelief and pride. 07:47 Lucifer, Adam and Eve... from then on... 07:50 every sin cycle starts with, 07:52 "I doubt that God is loving" 07:54 and then I start trying to fill in the blank. 07:56 Paul: And one of the ways the enemy sets us up for that is, 07:59 he sets you up to be hurt... to be betrayed... 08:02 to be abused... so he sets you up to be hurt 08:04 and he slips lies in the first-person language, 08:07 "I can't trust God... I'm in this on my own... " 08:09 and then we're off and running 08:11 and then we end up hurting ourselves. 08:13 Sometimes the worst of it 08:14 is if we're raised in a Christian home... 08:16 and we're going to church every week 08:17 and nothing ever seems to touch this pain, 08:19 so we think the gospel doesn't even apply to it. 08:22 Jennifer: "Somehow, I'm different than everybody... 08:24 look at all these people... are so happy 08:25 and it works for them but it doesn't work for me. " 08:27 Nicole: I can see all my friends 08:28 who are having a wonderful time with their boyfriends, 08:31 and I go "cold fish" inside every time somebody touches me 08:33 or after he touches me 08:35 and then, I would have panic attacks 08:37 if a man walked behind me... 08:39 I started sleeping fully clothed, 08:42 I would wear jeans at night because I was so terrified 08:45 somebody might come through my window and rape me 08:49 and I would lie there in bed without shoes on 08:51 and worry... "Should I put on shoes... 08:52 because if somebody comes through the window 08:54 and kidnaps me at gunpoint and marches me off into the dark 08:56 and I don't have shoes on... 08:57 maybe, I should just be wearing shoes" 08:59 and I knew it was crazy, 09:00 I knew this wasn't a normal way to think or function 09:03 and I wouldn't have dreamed of telling any of my friends 09:06 what was really going on in my mind 09:08 but I just had to live the double life... 09:10 laugh and pretend like everything is fine 09:12 during the day and live in the secret terror. 09:15 Did you connect the dots between what had happened and these... 09:18 the fact that you were sleeping in jeans? 09:20 Not at all, I had no idea what was wrong with me 09:23 and I never would have told anybody, 09:25 that's why I didn't get any counseling, 09:27 I didn't get any help, 09:28 finally, when I was 18... 09:30 I started telling a few close friends 09:33 and I told my sisters 09:34 and they were very supportive and helpful 09:36 but it was really... 09:40 it was when I was 16 that I came into a boarding school 09:45 where it was a safe environment, 09:46 I was surrounded by people 09:48 who were really showing me what Jesus was like, 09:50 a Jesus I could believe in 09:52 and I started reading the book, "The Desire of Ages" 09:53 and when I read that first chapter of The Desire of Ages, 09:57 I remember, I got tears in my eyes 10:00 as I read the last couple of sentences 10:03 and I thought, 10:05 "Maybe this is a God I can trust after all... 10:08 if that's really who He is, 10:10 maybe I could even trust Him with my life... " 10:13 and as I read further, I realized, 10:15 "This is a God I can trust with my life... " 10:17 so what started unraveling... that terrible web of lies 10:21 and fear and anger that was holding me trapped 10:24 was... being surrounded with a loving community of people 10:27 who acted like Jesus 10:28 and reading about a Jesus I could trust. 10:32 Did it completely... all the symptoms and everything 10:35 go away at that point... or talk to us about the long stretch. 10:38 I think it could have been resolved much more quickly 10:41 if I'd had some guided help, some kind of counseling 10:45 but I didn't know where to turn 10:47 in the end, one of my best friend's moms... 10:51 I talked with her because I'd always trusted her, 10:54 I had grown up around her and she was a safe person 10:56 and I talked with her about what had happened 10:59 and she said, "I was sexually abused too... 11:01 and I'm here now and I'm okay... 11:04 and I have a home and a family and I'm happy. " 11:06 Shelly: Powerful to have that validation to be acknowledged. 11:10 Pause... 11:12 Paul: What difference did it make for you to have her 11:14 share her story with you which normalized it 11:18 not that we want this to happen 11:19 but when she was able to do that, 11:20 what difference did that make for you? 11:22 Nicole: It's hard to even describe the power of the story 11:25 of knowing somebody else can come alongside me 11:28 and say, "The gospel applies to this too" 11:30 because I never heard any sermons talking about it, 11:33 I didn't know who I could talk to 11:35 how do you just bring this up? 11:37 "By-the-way, somebody used to rape me when I was a kid... 11:40 how are you... pass the salt. " 11:43 You don't know who to talk to, 11:44 where you turn... 11:46 and it took me a long time to come to the point 11:48 where I felt safe enough to be honest and vulnerable 11:51 with anybody... 11:52 Jennifer: You know what this does to me? 11:54 It really makes me determined to do everything I can 11:56 to make sure church is a safe place for victims 11:59 and also a place where they can experience healing 12:03 rather than re-traumatization, 12:04 it makes me all the more committed to that. 12:06 Paul: And that also means, 12:07 we have to be able to talk about these things 12:09 in a way that gives people hope. 12:11 Jennifer: So there are two extremes, 12:13 one is just ruminating and wallowing 12:15 and not really getting help and not having any solution... 12:17 and the other thing is to shut it down 12:20 and not talk about it at all 12:21 so we need to be... you're saying, 12:22 talk about it in a constructive manner, correct? 12:25 Paul: It invites people to know that as they come forward, 12:27 they're going to be listened to, they are going to be heard... 12:29 they're going to be believed and... 12:31 that we've got something for them that makes a difference 12:33 and we just happened to have Jesus stripped naked, 12:35 physically violated, shamed and humiliated on the... 12:38 hung on the cross... crying out, 12:40 "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" 12:42 It's not coincidental, 12:43 this is an intentional, willful fulfillment of prophecy 12:47 that's telling these people, "What happened was wrong, 12:50 I've gone through it, I understand 12:53 and if you let me connect my story with your story... " 12:55 I mean, this lady sharing her story... 12:57 Jesus suffering is He's saying, 12:59 "This is my story... to connect with yours. " 13:01 Jennifer: That's right, and also the story 13:03 of the premiere disciple, 13:04 Mary Magdalene... was also a victim 13:06 and so, we have that example too 13:08 Jesus gave her an unqualified compliment 13:11 that He didn't give to any of His other disciples, 13:13 "Wherever the gospel is preached, 13:15 tell what she has done... " 13:16 and He gave her that compliment and she was a victim 13:19 like, she recovered to that point 13:21 where He could give her that commendation 13:22 and she was a victim as well so we're in good company 13:25 yeah... 13:26 David: Like the other thing that I'm hearing here 13:28 which is powerful is that there was this incidence of abuse 13:33 and then, there's this child that is saying, 13:37 "What's happening to me?" 13:38 But in the journey, God provided a safe place... 13:42 and when you had that safe place, 13:44 you were able to then begin to 13:46 get a better understanding and then share your story 13:50 so God is journeying with us in our trauma, in our sadness, 13:54 and He's setting a safe place for us. 13:57 Jennifer: In other words, you're saying 13:59 that an environment was created for her 14:00 where she could face the issue 14:01 and that's what we can do in the church... 14:03 is we can create such a safe environment 14:05 that people don't have to be "stuff it anymore... " 14:07 they can actually talk about it and process it 14:10 appropriately and in a healthy way. 14:12 We can actually do something to create that environment. 14:15 Shelly: Because the truth is, Nicole, 14:17 when... gathering from your story... is that 14:20 not always is our biological family system 14:23 or our immediate... what would be "support system" 14:27 we would hope... it doesn't always function that way 14:31 so, could you share perhaps with people who are watching 14:35 that don't feel safe enough to share 14:37 with their immediate "support people... " 14:40 how do you create that, where do you begin? 14:43 Paul: What does that support look like for them? 14:44 David: That safe place to process the pain 14:47 and then share for that healing to take place. 14:49 Nicole: I really had to pray, 14:50 I didn't talk to my parents growing up, for whatever reason, 14:54 I didn't know how to tell them about this trauma 14:57 but God put people into my life... mothers in Israel... 15:01 friends who had suffered similarly 15:04 and just knowing, "I'm not alone... I'm not crazy" 15:07 helped so much... and, you know, 15:10 I didn't have counseling 15:11 which I highly recommend for people to have... 15:13 somebody who's a safe place... getting good books... 15:18 I really recommend the resources from Dan Allender, 15:21 "The Wounded Heart" and "Healing the Wounded Heart" 15:24 they were so powerful in helping me to figure out 15:28 how to apply the gospel to my life and my situation 15:31 but along the way, building community with safe people 15:35 who cared genuinely about me was so life transformative, 15:39 looking unto Jesus... 15:41 the author and finisher of our faith... is the solution... 15:44 but if I'm not looking to Jesus, 15:46 I'm going to fall off the narrow way... into one of two sides, 15:49 I'm going to look at myself as more than what God says, 15:52 "I don't need community, I don't need anybody to help me, 15:54 I can do this... I'm strong enough... " 15:56 that's not a Biblical perspective on myself, 15:58 or I'll swing to the opposite side and I'll say, 16:01 "Not even God can do something 16:03 with somebody as messed up as me" 16:05 and either way, I'm looking at self 16:07 and I'm seeing myself through an unbiblical perspective. 16:10 So, it's having a healing community around 16:12 who can say, "No, you can't do this all by yourself... 16:15 but yes, we can do it together 16:18 because the Law of God is to love God first... 16:20 to love our neighbors as ourselves... " 16:21 we have to live with vulnerable community with somebody 16:24 in order to heal. 16:25 You said you didn't have counseling 16:28 but you did... in a way because you did have mentors 16:30 and people that discipled you and mothers in Israel 16:33 as you said, and really... the church... 16:35 and I'm probably getting myself into trouble here 16:37 if the church functioned the way God ordained that it should, 16:40 we'd all be put out of business 16:41 because all of this would be happening organically 16:44 within the body of Christ. 16:46 Nicole: That's right, God puts us into families 16:49 as His way that we're supposed to learn who He is, 16:51 that's how a baby is supposed to understand about love 16:54 even before they know that there's a Creator 16:56 and redemption. 16:57 Shelly: But the community of faith is 16:59 where we develop that family of choice 17:01 biologically... our most intimate connections... 17:06 sometimes fail... because we're human too. 17:08 Nicole: All of our families fail in some significant ways 17:11 of showing us the character of God 17:13 because parents have to live perfectly 17:15 and now as a parent myself, I understand... 17:16 I don't live perfectly, 17:18 there have never been any perfect parents, 17:20 so all families fail in some ways 17:23 of reflecting God's character perfectly to their children 17:26 and that's why God has a secondary family at the church 17:28 to come and fill in the blanks... 17:30 to show us what God is really like 17:32 and help us in all of our feebleness 17:35 to support one another. 17:37 So you're saying, 17:38 it's not casting a bad reflection on your earthly... 17:40 your natural family... 17:42 that your more deep spiritual needs are met 17:44 in your supernatural family because 17:46 it's true of all families that they're not going to give 17:50 that person everything they need 17:51 so we all need the body of Christ. 17:53 And it gives hope, 17:55 I think most of us who have been abused 17:57 have from family of origins... 17:59 places where we can see there was significant harm 18:02 from within our family of origin like myself... 18:04 and when we have the standard in our minds that's unrealistic, 18:10 like, "Because my parents failed me, 18:11 I will never be able to be who I could have been. " 18:13 Jennifer: "I'm totally ruined for life. " 18:15 Nicole: Right, we cheat God 18:16 out of being able to do what He wants to do. 18:20 He says, "No, you have no idea... 18:21 I heal people through so many different avenues... " 18:24 He brings us into community 18:27 and it doesn't mean you have to have 50 safe people... 18:29 people are just like... 18:30 "You don't know the people that are around me... 18:32 there's nobody that I can trust. " 18:33 But maybe there's one... and just having one or two 18:37 and the first people that I went to 18:39 often didn't know what to say, 18:40 they could say, "Well, I'm sorry you went through that... 18:43 hope you feel better... " 18:44 they didn't know how to help me, 18:45 they didn't know the gospel applied 18:47 but I kept talking to people and it helped. 18:50 So there's a training process to equip people 18:52 to be able to deal with situations like this 18:54 and isn't that something that you are kind of into 18:56 at this point, Nicole? 18:58 Nicole: Yes, when I first was called by the Lord 19:01 to share my testimony, it took me months... 19:04 every night when I would lie down to go to sleep at night, 19:07 it would just hammer me in my head, 19:08 I can't do this... I can't do this, 19:10 I knew this Seminar is coming up in this many months, 19:11 and I'm going to have to stand up in front of people... 19:14 and I felt like I would be walking up in front naked... 19:15 but the one thing that drove me forward 19:18 was... this is what I wish somebody had done for me, 19:21 if only somebody had told me, "You're lost in this dark maze 19:26 but here's a light and I've been here where you are 19:29 and I'm going to guide you out from here... " 19:32 and that's what I want to do for people 19:34 to go back into that dark maze with them 19:36 and say, "I know where you are 19:38 and I know my way around this maze 19:40 because I've been here and I'll help you come out. " 19:42 Jennifer: So the thought that you could give people something 19:45 that you yourself needed and didn't get 19:47 propelled you past your point of self-consciousness and fear 19:51 of talking about such an embarrassing thing. 19:53 Nicole: Although, I think people often think, 19:56 "Well, I don't have that ability 19:57 because I haven't been through it... " 19:58 or "I don't know how to get out of it... " 20:00 but coming and just being alongside somebody 20:03 makes such a difference... 20:04 reflecting Jesus by sitting down... 20:06 looking somebody in the face 20:08 and saying, "I care that you're hurting... " 20:09 And 1st Corinthians 10:13... "There's no temptation taken you 20:14 but such as is common to man... " 20:16 so we all have something... maybe not as severe 20:18 but we have something that will help us relate 20:22 to that person that's coming to us. 20:24 That's right and the Holy Spirit just gives us the words 20:28 that we need to be able to say, even if all we say is, 20:31 "Talk to me about what happened, 20:32 I'm here, I'm listening and I care. " 20:35 We reflect Christ to people. 20:37 Paul: In that caring community, 20:39 what were some of the significant things 20:41 that helped you continue moving forward 20:42 so you can have a testimony and minister to other people? 20:45 Nicole: I had people who knew about my darkness 20:49 and didn't turn away 20:51 they didn't see me as ugly or disgusting. 20:54 By the time I came out publicly with my testimony, 20:57 I was already married, I was a mother... 21:00 but I thought, "Wow! 21:02 how would I have been able to have this kind of courage 21:07 without a supportive husband behind me 21:08 saying, "You've got this... " 21:09 how would I've done this as a single person 21:11 knowing nobody's ever going to 21:12 want to marry me if they knew this? 21:14 But this is where I really want to encourage people, 21:17 you know, the devil lies to us 21:19 and abuses one of his most powerful channels of lies, 21:23 he tells us, "God cannot be trusted... 21:25 God is not strong enough... 21:26 or He doesn't care enough to take care of you... " 21:29 and we just have to help people understand, 21:32 "He is... " and we do that by being like Jesus toward others. 21:36 People may feel like they're not equipped 21:38 but we can sit down with somebody and say, 21:40 "Jesus went through what you're going through. " 21:42 And also, Jesus defended the weak 21:44 this is why He went and turned over the money-changers' tables 21:48 and did all that... because they were exploiting the weak 21:51 and so Jesus is a defender of the weak 21:52 and you have gone on to become 21:55 a fearless advocate for victims of abuse 21:57 and I just want to touch on that for a second 21:59 because often people will say, 22:01 "Well, she can't handle these situations 22:03 because she's too compromised from her own abuse trauma... " 22:05 but nothing could be further from the truth 22:07 because God could take that trauma 22:09 and He can turn it into strength and ability and wisdom 22:12 to be able to handle these situations 22:14 with much more effectiveness 22:16 than someone who hasn't been through it... 22:17 at least potentially. 22:19 Nicole: The irony of it never escapes me 22:21 that church leaders and people come to me and say, 22:24 "We're just so glad to see how God has healed you 22:26 because that proves that people can overcome sexual abuse 22:30 and they don't have to live in shame and darkness forever... " 22:34 I'm like, "Yes, you're right, God does heal us completely" 22:37 but then, when they're dealing with a sexual-abuse situation 22:40 and I say, "This guy has done these things 22:43 and you need to deal with it this way... " 22:45 they turn around and say, 22:46 "Well, we're the ones who can see clearly 22:49 from an unemotional perspective 22:51 because we haven't been through what you've been through... " 22:53 so they don't really believe that what I've been though 22:57 is a gift from God when it's processed right 23:00 because just like if I've been through having both legs broken, 23:03 can't I understand better 23:05 what somebody else is going through 23:06 when they're lying in bed with both legs broken? 23:07 I've been there 23:09 and I've gone through the process of healing 23:11 and I understand things that they don't 23:13 because they haven't been there. 23:14 In every other area of ministry, we tend to believe, 23:17 "Well, somebody who's been through the experience 23:19 probably understands what they're talking about" 23:22 but in this area... people just don't want to believe 23:24 that they have to take action. 23:26 Jennifer: Do you get accused of being bitter? 23:27 Nicole: Oh, sometimes. 23:29 Jennifer: But have you forgiven? 23:30 Nicole: I think forgiveness is a journey 23:33 but I feel that I have forgiven 23:35 and I'm continuing to find new ways to forgive. 23:38 Jennifer: What is forgiveness? 23:39 Nicole: Forgiveness is not 23:41 saying, "Forgive and forget, 23:43 let's pretend like this never happened. " 23:44 Paul: Absolutely. David: Amen... amen. 23:45 Jennifer: It's part of your story... in other words. 23:47 Nicole: Forgiveness is when we let God into the story. 23:49 For me... forgiving... I felt for many years... 23:53 because I didn't know how to forgive 23:55 and I literally remember feeling like 23:57 my abuser's skeletal hand was coming out of the grave 24:01 gripping me everywhere I went 24:04 and I felt so bitter and angry, like, "He got off scot-free, 24:07 nobody ever confronted him, he never said he was sorry, 24:11 nothing ever happened, 24:12 he was a church member in good and regular standing 24:15 all the way to the end, amen" 24:16 and in the meantime, my life was shattered 24:19 and I felt certain I could never get married, 24:22 I could never stand having a daughter because 24:24 just watching somebody pick up a little girl 24:26 would just send me to shudders... 24:28 but at that point... I realized at one point 24:33 that this skeletal hand is holding me from the grave 24:35 because I let it 24:36 and I decided, "I'm not going to allow him to have that power" 24:41 and I realized it's not really him that is my abuser, 24:45 it's Satan that's my abuser. 24:47 Satan is the one... and my abuser was his prisoner, 24:50 that doesn't remove his responsibility... 24:53 but he was also a victim of the devil 24:55 and so, I realized the best way that I can get even 24:59 is by refusing to allow one particle of my heart 25:02 to belong to my abuser... to Satan... 25:05 and so, I've resolved intellectually, 25:08 "I'm not going to be bitter, 25:09 I'm going to choose to forgive whatever that looks like. " 25:11 David: And that's the key... 25:12 what you're saying is that forgiveness is no longer 25:15 treating the offender as the one who has offended you 25:18 but dealing with the pain as you work with God 25:21 and coming out of ourselves and into Christ... 25:24 Nicole: Yes, seeing the enemy as sin instead of a person 25:28 changes everything. 25:30 Paul: In Matthew 18:35, Jesus says, 25:32 "Forgive from your heart... " 25:34 so for me, "forgiveness" means, 25:36 you're letting God bring deep healing into your heart 25:38 and forgiveness is really the overflow 25:40 of the work that God is doing 25:42 and then that moves you into a ministry of testimony 25:45 as opposed to... it's something I do... 25:48 no... it's a journey where God's leading us deeper and deeper. 25:51 David: It's God who works in us both to will and to do... 25:53 Paul: I'm very thankful that... 25:54 it's the overflow of what God's been doing in you 25:57 and the fruit is, 25:58 that you're a passionate advocate for other people 26:00 where you're using your story for God's glory 26:04 that's ministering to other people. 26:05 Shelly: What's powerful to me Nicole is that 26:08 you mentioned dealing with the anger that... 26:11 as we've been talking, 26:12 I just whispered to my partner here to say, 26:15 open up to Psalm 4... Psalm 4:4 says, 26:18 "Be angry and sin not, meditate within your heart. " 26:21 So that process of going through... 26:25 dealing with the anger... getting to a point of saying, 26:28 "I'm not going to let this 26:29 have a foothold in my life any longer 26:31 and when the anger is removed, which is a process in itself, 26:35 but that frees us up to even begin to think about forgiving. 26:39 Nicole: Right, it was when I could take refuge 26:41 in the justice of God 26:43 that I let go of having to try to get justice 26:46 even if all the justice I could get 26:47 was hanging on to that bitterness 26:49 and burning resentment. 26:50 I think this is where we cheapen the gospel 26:53 when we try to make love a synonym for mercy, 26:56 love is the perfect combination of justice and mercy 26:59 and God gives us His promise, 27:03 He says, "I can't fix everything right now 27:05 things are unjust... children are starving... 27:07 women are being raped in Africa, 27:09 I can't make it all right right now... 27:11 or nobody's ever going to learn, 27:12 we're never going to get the universe free of sin 27:14 because people are still going to be... " 27:16 Jennifer: But I think it helps to know it does make Him angry. 27:19 Nicole: It does and when we understand... God is angry too 27:22 and He's promised... 27:23 "I'm going to take care of this one... " 27:25 Paul: And the cross tells us, 27:27 when we see what happened to Jesus... 27:29 it tells us that God understands experientially 27:32 that what happened to you was wrong, 27:35 that abuse victims have a God who knows it's wrong 27:38 and He's going to deal with it. 27:39 Nicole: And He came down and went through it with us 27:41 because He couldn't make it stop happening. 27:43 Paul: Yes. 27:44 Jennifer: Awww... this conversation needs to continue 27:47 and needs to continue for a long time... 27:49 these things happen in our communities, 27:52 they happen in our neighborhoods, 27:53 they happen in our churches... 27:56 go to: AMultitudeOfCounselors. tv 27:58 for more resources. 27:59 Thank you for joining us for this Program, 28:01 may God bless you. |
Revised 2017-08-08