Participants: Chris Holland (Host), Tim Standish PhD
Series Code: IIWC
Program Code: IIWC201609S
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00:11 >>Announcer: It has stood the test of time.
00:15 God's book, The Bible 00:18 Still relevant in today's complex world. 00:24 It Is Written. 00:26 Sharing messages of hope around the world. 00:38 CHRIS: Thank you for joining It Is Written. You know, we've had many discussions in the past 00:44 about Biblical origins. We've discussed some scientific reasons that the Biblical reason 00:52 of origins is attractive. Now, if you've missed any of those shows on origins, you can go to 00:59 our YouTube channel, www.youtube.com/iiwCanada. But I will tell you, when you look at 01:10 origins, one of the often-overlooked areas of understandings in the issue of 01:17 origins makes an immense practical difference in our lives. What is that issue? That 01:24 issue is ethics. To help us in our discussion about ethics, I have with me Dr. Tim Standish. 01:32 Dr. Standish, thank you so much for joining us again. DR. STANDISH: Oh, I'm glad to be 01:37 back. CHRIS: You know, Dr. Standish, you are the senior scientist of the Geoscience 01:42 Research Institute. You hold a Bachelor's degree in zoology, a Master's degree in biology, a 01:48 Ph.D. in environmental biology. And that's a lot of big words. Maybe in simple, tell us, what 01:57 do you do, Dr. Standish, on a daily basis? DR. STANDISH: Well, by trade, I'm a 02:01 molecular geneticist. So I'm very interested in DNA and the information that's encoded into 02:10 that DNA and how that information is retrieved and used by the cells in our bodies 02:17 - and obviously, the cells that make up any other organism - to actually make that organism. 02:25 It's a profound mystery, and yet, we're finding out little things as we go along. And every 02:32 time we find out something new, all of a sudden, we discover that things are much more 02:39 profound than we'd anticipated. So it's an exciting area of science to work in. CHRIS: Yes. 02:46 Now, why is it that you're working for the Geoscience Research Institute? And maybe 02:53 tell us a little bit about what the Geoscience Research Institute does. DR. 02:56 STANDISH: Well, the Geoscience Research Institute is a group of scholars - we're all Ph.D. 03:03 scientists - who are interested in the relationship between the claims of science and what is 03:14 revealed in Scripture. Now, most of the time, there is no disagreement between these 03:20 things. Obviously, there are some areas where there are these kind of tensions between the 03:26 current claims of science and the clear statements or clear record of Scripture. So we're 03:34 interested in those areas of tension. What do we do with them as Christians? What do we do 03:39 with them as scientists? We kind of straddle that divide. And yeah, it makes for a very 03:48 interesting area, sometimes a somewhat controversial area, to work in. CHRIS: Now, if someone 03:54 was interested in this area and wanted to do a little more reading, find some resources, 03:59 where might they go to find more information about the Geoscience Research Institute and some of 04:04 the work that you've been doing? DR. STANDISH: Well, certainly, a good place to start would be our 04:07 website. And the URL is GRISDA.org, so Grisda, G-R-I-S-D-A, dot org. 04:18 CHRIS: Wonderful. Now, you and I have had a number of discussions about origins. And people can go 04:26 to our website or to our YouTube channel and see some of those discussions that - invigorating 04:32 discussions - that we've had. One of the issues when we talk about origins - and I talked 04:39 about that in the intro - that we have not discussed is the issue of ethics. So why don't we 04:46 just start real baseline right there? What is ethics? DR. STANDISH: Basically, ethics are 04:53 the principles, the system of morals, that we use to decide what's right and what's wrong; 05:02 what's righteous and what's unrighteous. CHRIS: Okay. So here's, then, the question: 05:08 You're a scientist, I'm a pastor; why are we having a discussion about ethics when it 05:15 comes to the issue of origins? DR. STANDISH: Well, because our understanding of origins makes a 05:22 huge difference in our decision-making about what's right and what's wrong. 05:27 Obviously, one of the foundational things that you have to establish if you are 05:33 developing a system of ethics is, what is a human being? Because if a human being is, 05:41 let's say, a worthless object, then killing a human being would not be a bad thing at all. If a 05:50 human being is an invaluable creation of God, then, well, you know, maybe human life has a 06:00 different value to it than, you know, other ways in which you can look at it. So there are 06:09 lots of implications just right there. CHRIS: And I think you've alluded to it just a 06:15 little bit there, but let's talk about that. What are the moral implications of accepting the 06:23 Biblical record of origins? DR. STANDISH: Number one, the Bible tells us that everything we see 06:32 is ultimately created by God - and this is very important - also sustained by God. God 06:42 sustains His creation. And so then we have to ask ourselves, "How should I treat this 06:49 creation? Should I be comfortable with the idea that we can go out and destroy the 06:58 environment in which we live? destroy other organisms for some short-term expediency for 07:09 myself?" So just in terms of how we treat the rest of the creation is a big, big question, 07:21 possibly one that we as Christians should struggle with a little bit more. Think about 07:25 it. The Bible is quite amazing. You know, it gives very specific instructions about how we should 07:31 treat other animals. It tells us that God cares about other creatures. It does not put, 07:41 however, those other creatures on the same footing as human beings. The Bible tells us that 07:51 human beings are different. We have been created in the image of God. It also tells us that 08:03 there's something special, then, about the relationship between men and women. You know, there's 08:13 one unique difference in the creation of human beings that you don't see with the other 08:21 organisms. CHRIS: Okay. DR. STANDISH: God formed Adam out of the dust. The Bible tells us, in 08:29 Genesis 2, that He formed all the other creatures out of the dust. God breathed the breath of 08:36 life into Adam. But if we look, particularly a few chapters into the book of Genesis, where it 08:46 starts talking about the flood and talking about other creatures with the breath of 08:52 life in them. So well, what is it that makes Adam different? CHRIS: Yes, so you've got me 09:01 wondering now. DR. STANDISH: Well, he's formed in the image of God. But think 09:05 about this: What about Eve? First of all, Adam got to observe the other creatures and 09:17 realize his need for a wife. The other creatures didn't get that. And then - and this is just 09:26 glorious - God creates Eve from Adam. Wow. That's different. Now, you're a pastor. I don't 09:39 know, you know, I'm a mere biologist. But I notice these differences. And that does have 09:46 powerful implications. The relationship between a man and a woman is not the same as the 09:54 relationship between a cow and a bull. There's a difference there. So when we start talking 10:00 about relationships between human beings, the creation account makes a huge difference. 10:08 CHRIS: That is powerful. And so, when we look at the moral implications of understanding 10:17 and accepting the Biblical account of origins, it has more than just the implication of an 10:24 intellectual ideology, but rather, it affects, putting it simply, how I live, how I treat 10:33 others. Because when you and I are talking, when you and I are interacting, you are a creature 10:42 created by God. When I interact with the environment around me - this environment, the plants, 10:51 the animals - are things created by a Creator that I ought to have an appreciation for. DR. 10:59 STANDISH: Oh, yes, yes. And you know, there's another area that I think we can dig into if we 11:10 actually get into what I would consider to be the most popular alternative view of things, 11:19 which is Darwinian evolution. You know, it becomes quite stark when you start comparing and 11:27 contrasting what's going on there. CHRIS: Yes. And I was just going to ask you about 11:32 that, because then, the glaring question is: If I accept something outside the Biblical 11:38 account of origins, Darwinian evolution is the most popular. Now, maybe just as kind of a 11:46 brief, very, very brief explanation of Darwinian evolution - which won't do it 11:53 justice, because volumes have been written - what is Darwinian evolution, in its simplest 12:01 explanation? DR. STANDISH: At its core, Darwinian evolution is a materialistic theory of 12:07 origins. So it's a theory that says there was no intervention from outside of nature when it 12:18 came to the production of all of the organisms that we see today CHRIS: And so, kind of standing 12:26 in distinction from the Biblical account: the Biblical account gives a plan with a Planner, or 12:35 a design with a Designer; Darwinian evolution, there is no plan, there is no design, there 12:43 is no planner, there is no designer; things just happen because that's the course of 12:46 things happening, in its simplicity. DR. STANDISH: Yes. Now, Charles Darwin himself, 12:51 remember, he was a trained theologian. He was a trained pastor. So he actually thought 12:58 about these things sometimes quite deeply and wrote about them as well. So he actually 13:04 does do a fair amount of comparing and contrasting himself. I've got a quote here 13:11 that I want to read to you. This is Charles Darwin writing, way back in 1838. So you'll remember 13:21 that he published his theory of evolution in a book called The Origin of Species. That book was 13:27 published in 1859. So 21 years before that, he was writing. And he wrote: 13:55 So Darwin, long, long, long before, actually, he started writing The Origin of Species, 14:03 had committed himself to some kind of evolutionary idea in which human beings came from 14:12 animals. And by the way, this was not unique to him at that particular time. It wasn't even 14:18 unique in his own family. His grandfather. Erasmus Darwin, believed the same thing and 14:24 actually wrote about it. He had apparently a family motto that said something like, "Everything 14:30 came from shells," which is kind of interesting. But you know, Darwin believed we came from 14:39 animals; we were not the creation of God. So morally, then, we're the same as the 14:48 other animals. CHRIS: And so, with that said, then, Dr. Standish, I mean, what is the 14:54 moral implication and what are some of the moral implications? DR. STANDISH: Well, you know, 15:01 I'm a mere biologist, so what I try to do is I try to go and read what people who are experts 15:07 in this area say. And I have a quote here from Peter Singer. Now, Peter Singer is a very 15:15 eminent ethicist. He's a Darwinian ethicist. And many people have heard of him because 15:24 he's been a champion of animal rights. And that obviously springs from his kind of system 15:35 of ethics. Human beings are not necessarily different from animals. So why would we treat 15:43 humans differently than we treat animals? So let me read this to you. He said, 16:11 He argues that animals and humans have the same moral status. And he is not alone in 16:20 doing that. James Rachels, another prominent commentator in this area, wrote: 16:46 So you know, this is not. I don't want to put words into these gentlemen's mouths, but 16:54 this is very, very profound, because if humans are the same as animals, then either animals 17:02 have all the same rights as human beings, or human beings have no special rights at all. 17:12 CHRIS: Yes, and I mean, beyond that, it would seem that not only we talk about the operation 17:21 of society - and society is governed by laws and regulations, and many of those 17:27 laws and regulations, at least in the United States and in Canada, many of those laws and 17:34 regulations actually find their roots in the Bible - but if we're saying that, I mean, the 17:39 implications of this are far-reaching, that not only do animals and human beings have 17:47 the same rights, so to speak, but then as human beings, we really don't need to operate 17:54 within a set of laws or regulations, because if we're no different than animals, then we 17:59 should just do as we desire. DR. STANDISH: That's right. If it's okay for animals, it must be 18:03 okay for human beings as well. Now, there are a number of areas where this has actually come 18:09 into quite stark focus in the last few years. One of them has to do with the question of human 18:19 rights. In this system of thinking, human rights don't really actually kind of exist, 18:28 because why would we have different rights than other organisms? CHRIS: Okay. DR. 18:33 STANDISH: So how do you justify, then, treating human beings differently than cows or frogs 18:41 or trees? What is developing is a system that. it's a utilitarian way of thinking 18:52 about things. Basically, the argument is, humans are special because we have special 18:58 cognitive abilities. We have special brains, and cows don't. So cows can't comprehend 19:06 suffering, let's say, in the same way that human beings can. Now, we have no real way of 19:13 knowing that, but this is sort of the way the thinking goes. So that sounds like it might work. 19:20 But what happens when you turn that on its ear a little bit? What happens if you have a human 19:26 being who is mentally impaired in some way? What these guys have done is they've separated 19:34 the concept of a human being, which is reasonably easy to identify - if it comes out of a 19:41 human mother, it's a human being - from a concept we call person-hood or something along 19:51 those lines. A person may have special rights, but a human does not. And then the argument goes, 20:00 if a person. when a human is born, they're a baby. They don't have the cognitive abilities of 20:10 a 20- or 30- or 50-year-old. So therefore, they don't have special rights. And in fact, it 20:18 has been advocated, even in major - at least, I'm thinking of one specific example, in a 20:27 major journal of medical ethics - it's been advocated that it's okay to kill babies, if they're 20:36 an inconvenience. CHRIS: Wow. DR. STANDISH: Because they have no special moral status. They 20:42 have not yet developed into persons. And of course, the concept of a person is something 20:49 that is decided by the person who decides it. There's no kind of sharp line there. What 21:00 happens when a person develops Alzheimer's disease? Are they still a person anymore? Or is it 21:07 okay to dispose of them? These are questions that are being seriously asked, reasoning from 21:16 the Darwinian perspective. CHRIS: Yes, and I just want to be clear, as maybe a viewer has 21:23 picked up our show in the middle. We are not advocating this; we are talking about the 21:27 implications of accepting Darwinian evolution. And the ethics of that is that 21:35 essentially, we take human beings, and human beings are not special, number one; but number 21:41 two, even within human beings, we are making the distinction that someone with cognitive 21:47 abilities is a person, and so they have special rights, but a human being by nature doesn't 21:54 have special rights, so someone that is. DR. STANDISH: There are no human rights. 21:58 CHRIS: There are no human rights. So someone that is mentally handicapped in some 22:02 way, someone who is possibly malformed, someone who develops Alzheimer's later in life, 22:10 they're not a person, and because they're not a person with whatever cognitive 22:16 abilities the individual testing cognitive abilities says is a cognitive person, they're not a 22:23 person and have zero rights. DR. STANDISH: Precisely. Now, contrast that with the Biblical 22:31 view of things. CHRIS: Yes. DR. STANDISH: And obviously, we can talk in sort of abstract terms 22:37 about being created in the image of God and all of those things, but as Christians, 22:42 Bible-believing Christians, we have a huge advantage, because the Creator of this world came 22:49 down and lived as a human being: Jesus Christ. So we can look at how Jesus valued those who were 23:01 considered to be of less value in the society that He operated in. CHRIS: Yeah, I mean, Dr. 23:09 Standish, you've got my mind just. I mean, I think about Jesus. I mean, Jesus addresses 23:15 the leper; Jesus addresses the crippled man; Jesus addresses a woman who has an issue of blood. 23:21 And then even beyond that, Jesus addresses someone who's dead. And so the implications of that 23:29 are far-reaching. DR. STANDISH: Oh, yes. The demoniacs. Think about that. 23:33 Jesus went across the Sea of Galilee to meet men who had lost their minds, and He restored 23:44 them. Here's another one. And this really touches my heart. Jesus, when people brought their 23:54 children to Him, how did His disciples react? They didn't think that the children were 24:00 worthy. CHRIS: That's right. DR. STANDISH: Because they, for better or for worse, were 24:06 thinking along similar lines. But Jesus said, you know, "Suffer the little children. 24:13 Come unto me." He didn't say, "Well, when they're old enough and they have the cognitive 24:20 abilities that make them persons, then I will take care of them." He, you know, was 24:30 there and ready to bless them and value them. The Bible, both the Old and New Testaments, 24:38 constantly call on the followers of the created God to, you know, help the needy, take care of the 24:50 vulnerable, and so on, not to devalue them or make some judgement about whether they're 24:57 persons and therefore they have value and rights versus, you know, being human, which doesn't 25:05 intrinsically have any rights. It's 100% in one direction: they're of infinite value. Jesus 25:11 Christ died for all human beings. CHRIS: You know, Dr. Standish, it's hard to believe 25:17 that we are out of time. But what a profound not just thought, but reality: to accept 25:25 an account of origins outside the Biblical account of origins has far-reaching effect, because 25:35 outside of it, there is no value to a human being, but within it, we value all human beings, which 25:44 is why we should feed the hungry, why we should reach out to the poor, why we should treat 25:50 one another with respect, even when we disagree. Because, as you pointed out, in God's eyes, 25:58 every last one of us is of infinite value in His eyes, such an infinite value, that He 26:09 actually came to this earth to die for us to make us a new creation. DR. STANDISH: Wow. 26:14 CHRIS: Amazing. Dr. Standish, let's pray together. Lord, we are so thankful that You made 26:21 us, and because You made us, we are infinite in value in Your eyes. We thank You so much, in 26:28 Jesus' name, amen. DR. STANDISH: Amen. 26:37 CHRIS: Dear friends, what a profound thought: the Master Designer, Jesus Christ, crafted 26:44 and made you with infinite value. You know, if you'd like to learn more about this Jesus 26:52 Who places infinite value on you, I'd like to offer you the Discover Bible guides. You'll be 26:59 drawn nearer to Him, learn more about Him. Here's the information you need to receive 27:05 today's offer. 28:02 CHRIS: Dr. Standish, I want to thank you so much for this profound discussion on ethics. 28:08 DR. STANDISH: You know, the bottom line is, in the Biblical view of things, humans are of 28:12 infinite value; in the Darwinian view, they are of questionable value. CHRIS: You know, dear 28:19 friends, I want to thank you so much for watching. And if you want to continue to learn more 28:24 about this God Who places infinite value on you, join us again next week. Until then, 28:29 remember, it is written: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds 28:36 from the mouth of God." |
Revised 2020-02-13