Participants:
Series Code: IC
Program Code: IC180116A
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to sexuality. 00:05 Parents are cautioned 00:06 this presentation may be too candid 00:08 for younger audiences. 00:30 Welcome to Intimate Clarity. 00:32 I'm Jason Bradley, 00:33 and I'm here with Jennifer Jill Schwirzer, 00:35 and she is a licensed professional counselor, 00:38 and today we're going to discuss a topic 00:40 that is sensitive in nature, 00:42 but it's a conversation we need to have. 00:44 Jen, what does homosexual be... 00:47 What does the Bible say about homosexual behavior? 00:50 Yeah, I wanted to spend 00:51 at least one segment addressing that 00:53 because I'm trying to live by the Bible, 00:56 I'm trying to be a follower of Jesus, 00:58 and so I have to wrestle with things like this, 01:01 moral issues like this, 01:02 even though it's not my particular issue, 01:05 I help a lot of people, 01:06 and I feel as a mental health provider, 01:08 and as minister of the gospel, I should have something to say 01:11 about this really pressing issue. 01:14 But I have to say I'm very self-conscious about it, 01:17 I'm worried about offending people, 01:19 I'm afraid of offending people, 01:21 and I'm afraid of discouraging people 01:23 that are experiencing same sex attraction 01:26 because oftentimes when people start to experience 01:28 same sex attraction 01:30 and they read the things in the Bible 01:32 about what God says about homosexuality, 01:34 they personalize it, 01:36 and they think that God feels that way toward them. 01:39 And they end up in situations where they are depressed 01:42 and even sometimes suicidal. 01:44 So I never want to contribute to anything like that. 01:46 At the same time, I think I have to be fair with the data 01:49 and sexuality is sacred 01:52 and God has built it a certain way, 01:55 to function it certain way, 01:56 and when we break those boundaries, 01:59 and compromise that design, there are consequences to that. 02:02 So I'm walking a real fine line here. 02:05 There are only six texts in the Bible 02:07 that really directly address homosexuality, 02:11 and yet every time you see it mentioned, 02:13 the Bible is a univocal, 02:15 there are some issues 02:17 that the Bible will say something on one side 02:20 and then seem to say something 02:21 that kind of, not contradicts it, 02:24 but complements it on another side. 02:26 And you can be kind of ambivalent about something 02:28 'cause you're not quite sure what the Bible is saying, 02:31 but with homosexuality, 02:33 everything that is said is what we call univocal. 02:36 It always says the same thing 02:38 and there's really no affirmation 02:40 for homosexual behavior in the Bible, 02:44 and there are several texts 02:45 that really strongly denounce it. 02:47 And so I want to look at them one by one. 02:49 Okay. 02:50 One that is used, 02:52 and it's called the clobber text, 02:53 'cause it's one of those texts that Christians will hit 02:56 gay people over the head with is the thinking 02:59 and why it's called the clobber text. 03:00 Well, one that's used that I don't think should be used 03:02 in the discussion much at all is Genesis 19, 03:06 the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. 03:07 Okay. 03:09 To give the story in brief, some angels come into town, 03:12 Lot invites them home, 03:13 the men of Sodom believe 03:15 that the angels are human beings, 03:17 they come to Lot's door, 03:18 they say, "Give those men to us. 03:20 We want to basically gang rape them." 03:22 Horrible story, there's more detail than that, 03:25 but that's not dealing 03:28 with consensual monogamous same sex relationships, 03:31 and that's the question on the table today 03:34 in church circles. 03:35 Is it okay for people to engage in same sex, 03:39 monogamous consensual loving relationships? 03:42 That's clearly not what's going on in Sodom. 03:44 There, that's gang rape, 03:45 so we're not really dealing with homosexuality alone there. 03:49 We're dealing with gang rape. 03:50 So I kind of feel like that one is off the table, 03:52 but then if we go forward, we find in Leviticus 18:22, 03:57 and Leviticus 20:13, 04:00 two verses that are part of 04:01 what's called the holiness code. 04:04 The holiness code is the section of the Torah 04:06 that deals in specific with moral issues 04:10 that I believe are timeless issues, 04:13 that really coincide with the Ten Commandments. 04:16 Okay. 04:17 And the reason I say that is because in the New Testament, 04:20 you remember what the Christian church was wrestling 04:23 with one of the laws of Moses to retain 04:27 and which of those laws to leave behind. 04:28 Yes. 04:29 Because of the new conference were being required 04:31 to be circumcised. 04:33 And so there was a big debate about that. 04:35 So they had what was called the Jerusalem Council 04:38 and we see in Acts 15 04:40 that the result of the Jerusalem Council 04:42 was that they retained three things, 04:46 inhibitions on idolatry, they prohibited idolatry, 04:51 they prohibited sexual immorality, 04:54 and thirdly the eating of blood. 04:56 So those are the three things, 04:57 they kind of boiled 04:58 the perpetual aspects of Moses Law 05:01 down to those three things. 05:03 Okay. Okay. 05:04 And go over those three things again. 05:05 And those are idolatry, 05:08 the sexual immorality, and the consuming of blood. 05:10 Okay. 05:11 And we see those three things 05:13 really unpacked in the holiness code. 05:14 So there seems to be sort of a resonance 05:16 between the holiness code of Leviticus 17-20 05:20 and the document that came out of the Jerusalem Council. 05:24 So it seems to be saying 05:25 that these are perpetual principles that you live by. 05:28 So basically in Leviticus 18:22 it says, 05:32 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, 05:34 it is an abomination." 05:36 That's pretty straight forward. 05:37 Yeah, I mean, that's pretty clear cut to the point. 05:39 Leviticus 20:13, 05:41 "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, 05:43 both of them have committed an abomination, 05:45 they shall surely be put to death, 05:47 their blood shall be upon them." 05:48 There's heavy stuff here. 05:49 Yeah. This is heavy stuff. 05:51 And so people that argue for accepting 05:56 loving consensual monogamous 05:58 homosexual relationships in church 06:01 will say that this is not referring to that. 06:03 This is referring to male cult prostitution 06:07 which was very common in the ancient near East, 06:10 but you see nothing in the text 06:12 to indicate that that's what it's talking about. 06:13 No. 06:15 If there was something in the text that indicated 06:16 that, we could come to that conclusion. 06:17 Yeah, you see how a lot of people will try 06:19 and manipulate scripture and manipulate religion 06:23 or whatever the case may be to fit their lifestyle 06:26 and their preferences 06:27 rather than shaping their lifestyle 06:28 and their preferences 06:30 around the solid principles that are found. 06:33 Let me just say that's exactly what I'm doing here. 06:35 I am molding my ideas to God's Word 06:37 rather than thinking, "I think it's fine to be 06:39 if you're in a loving consensual..." 06:41 'Cause that's how my humanity would go. 06:42 I don't like restricting people 06:44 from anything they want to do to find love. 06:47 This is not how I am. 06:48 But then I look at the Word of God 06:50 and I have to be honest with it. 06:51 Romans 1:26-27, 06:54 Paul starts out the passage by mentioning the creation. 06:58 And in the context of creation, he says, 07:01 "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions 07:03 for even their women exchanged the natural use 07:05 for what is against nature." 07:08 Pay attention to that phrase, "Against nature." 07:10 "Likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the woman 07:13 burned in their lust for one another, 07:14 men with men committing what is shameful 07:16 and receiving in themselves 07:18 the penalty of their error which was due." 07:20 So that against nature phrases very telling. 07:23 We're talking about the context of creation. 07:25 God is saying here's the design 07:28 and what these individuals are doing 07:29 is against the design, against nature in that sense 07:33 because what's being said 07:34 is that it's against their personal nature, 07:36 they're heterosexual normally, 07:38 and they get in a party situation 07:39 or whatever, 07:41 and they have a same sex encounter. 07:43 But it's not talking about 07:44 against their individual nature, 07:46 it's talking about against the natural process, 07:51 the way the God created the natural world. 07:53 That's the divine design. That's right, the divine. 07:55 It's not hard to really come to that conclusion 07:58 when you look at the body parts involved 07:59 and how they fit, 08:01 it just doesn't work in the same sex encounter. 08:04 We won't be going into too much detail about that, 08:06 but let's also talk about 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 10, 08:10 it mentions, effeminate malakoi, 08:12 the word malakoi in the Greek, 08:14 and homosexuals arsenokoites 08:16 along with another list of people of lifestyles 08:20 that lead people to be left out of the Kingdom. 08:24 And those words refer to the soft effeminate partner 08:28 in a same sex relationship, malakois, and arsenokoites, 08:32 it simply means male bed, it's talking about sleeping, 08:36 a male sleeping with a male. 08:38 There are a lot of arguments about what these words mean, 08:42 some people claim that they mean pederasty, 08:44 pederasty was common in Greek and Roman culture, 08:49 also in certain Asian cultures, 08:52 pederasty is man-boy love, and it was common that, 08:56 you know, for instance in Rome, 08:57 educated affluent men would have male concubines, 09:01 and it would be, you know, a very close relationship. 09:05 There's all kinds of layers of that, 09:07 but it was common in Roman culture, 09:09 and really very accepted, 09:10 but that doesn't seem to be what this is talking about. 09:13 The word arsenokoites means males sleeping with males, 09:17 not men sleeping with boys necessarily. 09:21 So I want to end 09:23 with a different thought though, 09:25 gets clear as the Bible is in its regard of homosexuals 09:30 or gay behaviors, it enlists us to love. 09:33 And I become saddened 09:35 when I see that Christians are so caught up 09:39 in really countering 09:41 the political agenda of the left, 09:43 that they end up being so invested 09:45 in the political agenda, 09:47 this issue becomes so politicized 09:49 that they shed more tears 09:51 about the legalization of gay marriage 09:54 than they shed over the gay neighbors 09:58 that don't know Jesus, 10:00 the gay neighbors that feel hated by Christians. 10:05 We need to shed tears over that. 10:07 And just as faithful as we are to Scripture, 10:10 we need to be faithful to the other parts of Scripture 10:13 that say reach out and love 10:14 to people that are different than you. 10:16 And I think also part of our maturity in Christ 10:19 is not to make enemies out of people 10:22 that think differently about this issue than we think 10:25 and to be willing and secure enough in God 10:29 to where we're willing to be challenged 10:33 and to think this through again and again and again. 10:36 Yeah, I think that it's important to realize that, 10:39 you know, Jesus hates... 10:42 God hates the sin but not the sinner. 10:46 And so, you know, 10:47 there we have to love the person, 10:51 we may not condone the behavior, 10:52 but we love the person. 10:54 And the fact that God can give you 10:57 the victory over anything that you're struggling 11:00 that goes against His word. 11:02 If it's some kind of sin, transgression of His law, 11:05 then He can help you get the victory over that. 11:09 The very head of the passage that I was reading from 11:11 in Romans 1 starts in verse 18, and it says, 11:14 "The wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness 11:18 and unrighteousness of men." 11:20 But it doesn't say the wrath of God 11:21 is revealed against the men. 11:23 It's revealed against their ungodliness 11:26 and unrighteousness. 11:27 God is holy. 11:28 He cannot help but have, can I call it, 11:31 a visceral response, 11:32 an intense response to sin in any form 11:35 because He knows the violation of His design 11:38 will lead to the destruction of the very beings 11:40 for whom He laid down his life. 11:42 Yes. 11:43 So God, by his very nature, can't help but be angry 11:45 against any kind of violation of His design 11:48 which upholds life, 11:49 but it's against the violation of the design 11:52 and not the people that are violating it. 11:55 It's God's grand purpose in the world today 11:57 is to separate sin from sinners 11:59 so that He can ultimately destroy the sin 12:02 and preserve and save the sinners for eternity. 12:06 And we need to find a way to communicate that 12:10 to our gay neighbors, 12:12 to our affirming brothers and sisters in the church, 12:16 people that believe it's okay 12:18 even though we feel kind of at odds with them 12:20 in the way we interpret the scriptures, 12:22 we need to not enter into unnecessary debate 12:26 over it or get nasty, like stay off of Facebook 12:29 when you're talking about stuff like this 12:31 'cause it's only going to go down that rabbit hole, 12:33 if you know what I mean. 12:34 And just maintain our dignity and our Christ-like spirit 12:37 in discussing these things 12:38 'cause it's only going to get hotter. 12:40 This issue is heating up. It is. 12:42 And I mean, you see it being, 12:44 you know, the Bible says train up a child the way he go. 12:47 And when he grows old, he won't depart from you. 12:49 Well, you see people trying to train these children up 12:51 in sexual immorality 12:53 and all kinds of different things. 12:56 The enemy is getting to children 12:57 at younger and younger ages and indoctrinating them 13:02 in, you know, 13:03 things that are not in the Word of God, 13:06 but what do we expect 13:07 from public school for instance? 13:09 They don't have the grounding, 13:11 they don't have the guidance of the Word of God, 13:13 so we really can't expect anything different, 13:15 but what we can expect is that some of those people 13:17 will be hungry for something better. 13:19 Yeah. 13:20 And if we're so busy being their political enemies, 13:22 we won't be able to pick up those cues 13:23 and really minister to them in an effective way 13:26 when they're ready to receive what God has to say to them. 13:29 Yeah, so we need to love, first and foremost, love, 13:33 and that love leads us to speak out 13:34 against things that are genuinely harmful, 13:37 it does. 13:38 But it also leads us to love and have affection for people 13:41 in a very real and in a way that they can sense. 13:45 Yeah. Challenging. 13:47 And it's definitely a delicate topic, 13:49 it's sensitive. 13:50 Do we ever talk about anything but delicate topics? 13:53 I don't think so. No, I don't think we do. 13:56 Dude, I hope you sleep tonight, I don't know if I'm going to... 14:00 Yeah. Well, we shall see. 14:02 Yes, we shall. Yes, absolutely. 14:04 Well, it's been a pleasure once again. 14:06 I can't believe our time is just about up. 14:08 Can you believe it? 14:10 Well, if you want more information, 14:12 please go to IntimateClarity.tv and check out the website, 14:16 check out resources, 14:17 and make sure that you join us next time 14:19 on another episode of Intimate Clarity. |
Revised 2018-09-27