Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Bob
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000481A
00:01 Jesus said forgive and you will be forgiven
00:03 and He is speaking about the woman
00:06 who anointed His feet, He says,
00:08 "I say to you her sins which are many are forgiven,
00:13 for she loved much."
00:15 The more we love, the more we forgive,
00:18 the more we are forgiven.
00:20 Please join us today on Issues and Answers,
00:22 as we talk about this critical topic,
00:56 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn,
00:58 and we welcome you once again to Issues and Answers.
01:00 As we came on the air
01:02 if you saw a part of our set was darkened,
01:04 we didn't blow a light,
01:06 we actually have it darkened on purpose
01:08 because our special guest returning with us today is Bob
01:12 and we're talking about
01:14 these 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.
01:18 And he is not a spokesperson for AA
01:21 because AA has no spokespeople.
01:24 But he's here to share
01:25 his personal experience of going through these steps
01:28 and they're all Christian principles
01:31 that are found in these steps.
01:32 So we have rather darkened his face
01:35 to just honor his anonymity.
01:39 Let me just catch you up-to-date
01:41 if you're just joining us in these series.
01:44 We had so far talked about seven of these steps.
01:48 I'm going to read these steps to you
01:50 in such a way that I am not talking about an alcoholic.
01:53 You can apply it to alcoholism
01:56 or you can apply it to addiction,
01:58 but I think these steps apply to all Christians.
02:02 Listen to this if I read it in that way.
02:04 The first step is "To admit we're powerless over sin,
02:09 that our lives are unmanageable.
02:12 We come to believe that there is a God in heaven,
02:16 a power that is greater than ourselves
02:19 that can restore us to sanity.
02:22 We make a decision to turn our will and our lives
02:25 over to the care of God as we are understanding Him.
02:30 We make a certain and fearless moral
02:33 inventory of ourselves saying, Lord search me,
02:36 show me if there is anything in me
02:38 that's not pleasing to You.
02:40 Then we admit to God, to ourselves,
02:43 and to other human beings the exact nature of our wrongs
02:48 and then we are to be entirely ready
02:51 to have God remove all these defects of character,
02:55 and we humbly ask Him to remove our shortcomings."
03:00 These are steps that AA applies to the alcoholic
03:04 but can you see how they apply to each and every one of us.
03:09 Well, today we're going to talk about the topic of forgiveness,
03:13 covering steps 8 and 9.
03:15 Bob, we want to thank you so much
03:17 for returning today to this program,
03:20 and I'm just gonna pass the baton to you
03:23 and let you get rolling.
03:25 Thank you, Shelley,
03:26 it's a pleasure to be back here.
03:28 You know step 8 and 9
03:30 deal on the surface with making amends,
03:33 first by making a list of all the people we've harmed.
03:35 Step 8 says made a list of all the persons we'd harmed
03:39 and may came willing to make amends to them all.
03:42 And then step 9 is made direct amends
03:44 to such people wherever possible
03:46 except want to do so would injure them or others.
03:50 But it's far more than just making amends,
03:53 it's far more than making things right.
03:57 It has enough of what to do with forgiveness.
03:59 When I first approached this step,
04:02 I was apprehensive to say the least.
04:04 There were lots of people on my list.
04:06 And as I took my...
04:08 People you had hurt? Yes.
04:10 And people that I'd talked about in my fifth step.
04:14 So I used my fourth step
04:16 which was the list of all my resentments and fears
04:19 and the things I was feeling guilty and ashamed off.
04:22 And I used that as a bases to start this list.
04:26 But in our literature it says,
04:27 we need to make an exhaustive list.
04:30 We need to ransack our memory and go as far back as we can.
04:35 Every little slide, every hurt, everything
04:39 that I caused pain for others that I could remember,
04:41 I needed to write those things down.
04:44 Now of course, you know,
04:45 I hurt my mom's feelings a million times.
04:48 One time would be enough to know
04:49 that I hurt her feelings over this or that.
04:52 But if there were instances
04:53 where I remember there was a real scene
04:55 or something that came back to my mind,
04:58 I would write it down.
04:59 My sponsor wisely when I did my fourth step,
05:02 and I did my eighth step reminded me to pray
05:06 before I got started.
05:08 He says, I want you to pray and ask God to remind you
05:11 of everything you need to write down.
05:13 Invoke God's help in other words.
05:18 He asked me to write at least 30 minutes
05:21 and no more than an hour
05:22 because he says, you know, you can exhaust yourself
05:25 if you just spend all your energy in this.
05:27 And he advised that I not let more than a day go by
05:30 without writing on this list,
05:32 because I needed to get it done
05:34 and if I let any length of time pass,
05:37 it would just seem like a daunting task
05:39 that I didn't want to deal with.
05:40 So at the end of it also he would say,
05:43 "Make sure you pray and ask God
05:45 to remove those thoughts from your head."
05:47 You know, I had an image in my mind
05:49 of ebonies or scrooges story, you know,
05:52 the ghost of Christmas past
05:54 that was ragging all these chains with him.
05:57 And the idea that if I'm going to look at every misdeed
06:01 I've ever committed in my life that I can remember,
06:04 I can keep them all on top of me
06:06 and just suffer under that weight,
06:08 and that was not the purpose of this.
06:11 It was to take a really good look at what my life had done,
06:16 to look at the wake of broken hearts
06:19 and hurt feelings that I had left
06:22 in the wake of my life, in my self-centeredness,
06:25 in my selfishness, my dishonesty,
06:28 and what my fear had done to me
06:30 to make me lash out at others, to hurt other people.
06:34 So I started writing this list but very quickly it was obvious
06:39 that there were some people that had hurt me as well.
06:42 Sometimes what I did to them was a result of something
06:46 they did to me in the first place.
06:48 And now I had a different problem I had to deal with.
06:51 I had to deal with forgiveness and one of our books
06:55 "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions"
06:57 talks more specifically about each one of the step.
06:59 It's a commentary if you will,
07:01 on the original directions that were given in the book
07:04 "Alcoholics Anonymous,"
07:05 and one line in there stuck out for me and it said,
07:09 "As we prepare to go and ask forgiveness
07:13 for all the things we've done to others.
07:17 It makes sense to begin by forgiving them one and all."
07:22 And that just opened my eyes, I thought oh, oh,
07:26 I'm in trouble.
07:28 Because as probably all of us have,
07:31 there are some hurts that are so deep,
07:33 that there is no way or no way I could see
07:36 that I could ever forgive some of those things
07:38 that others had done to me.
07:41 And I was left with this terrible quandary,
07:44 you know, I remember praying about it
07:46 and it just wouldn't go away.
07:47 I remember trying to forgive people
07:50 but I just didn't have it to give them,
07:52 and I thought how am I going to do this.
07:54 I cannot manufacture this kind of forgiveness
07:58 and I'm happy to say
07:59 and I'm not sure if somebody told me this
08:02 or if I read it somewhere,
08:04 I certainly not negate literature,
08:06 but at some point I was, I had the understanding
08:10 that in order to forgive those deep pains that we have,
08:16 if we don't have it in us
08:17 to give that kind of forgiveness,
08:19 then the only way we can go is to say,
08:22 "God, please give me this forgiveness for this person."
08:26 And somehow in the process of taking that forgiveness
08:30 and passing it on to them,
08:33 it cleaned out my heart of the resentment,
08:37 and the anger, and the pain.
08:42 You know, I often wonder
08:45 if God asked us to do something that we cannot do,
08:50 He asks us to forgive.
08:52 I'm reminded of in Matthew 6
08:55 at the end of the Lord's Prayer it says,
08:57 "If you forgive others, then you will be forgiven.
09:01 But if you do not forgive others,
09:02 your heavenly Father will not forgive you."
09:05 I wonder if it's that He won't or if He can't.
09:09 I don't believe He can't forgive us
09:11 if we have a root of bitterness in our heart,
09:14 because whatever He gives us will just disintegrate
09:18 because of that anger and that resentment.
09:21 It's like putting a drop of water
09:23 on a really hot skillet.
09:24 It's going to explode. It's not going to stay there.
09:27 It's not going to cool anything off.
09:30 And, you know,
09:31 nobody with that kind of hatred can go into heaven,
09:34 can be happy in heaven.
09:35 So I know that God long to give us
09:40 that kind of forgiveness for others
09:42 but there are some things
09:43 that we cannot manufacture ourselves.
09:45 And I don't believe the true forgiveness
09:48 is something we can manufacture.
09:49 It's something we can choose to do
09:52 as a deliberate choice to receive forgiveness from God
09:56 and to pass it on to that person.
09:58 At least that's been my experience.
09:59 One I think that's true for everyone.
10:01 I don't think that it's just as Romans 55 says
10:05 that God pours out His love into our hearts
10:08 by the power of the Holy Spirit,
10:10 and what I read from Luke 7:47 at the beginning of the program
10:15 is that we have to,
10:17 if we love much, we are forgiven much,
10:19 it's this idea that as His love pours into our hearts,
10:24 we can look at others through His eyes.
10:27 It is from Him that we receive
10:30 the forgiveness.
10:31 You know, Bobby, I was praying for someone once that,
10:35 well actually, excuse me, I was praying
10:38 and I was holding a deep resentment in my heart.
10:42 Someone who had cost my husband and I
10:46 over a quarter of a million dollars.
10:47 Someone who threatened to kill me
10:50 actually said he had, you know,
10:53 a team out to get me while I was in Europe
10:55 and so I had this for the first time in my life
10:59 I experienced hatred.
11:01 I've never hated anyone before.
11:03 So I found myself praying
11:05 and as I am praying and asking God for forgiveness,
11:08 the still small voice of the Lord,
11:10 you know, where He is impressing,
11:12 the Holy Spirit impresses the thought upon your mind.
11:15 This is the thought that came to me.
11:16 I'll forgive you if you'll forgive him.
11:19 And it's like, you got to be kidding me.
11:22 The long and the short of it is,
11:24 the Lord continued to,
11:28 I mean, He impressed that so strongly in my heart
11:30 that I knew I had to
11:32 and I thought, I don't know how.
11:34 He said, pray for his salvation
11:38 and I didn't want to pray for his salvation.
11:41 That's how much I...
11:44 the disdained I felt for this person.
11:46 It's like he doesn't deserve your salvation.
11:49 Finally I told the Lord, okay, I will do it
11:52 but you know my heart's not in it.
11:54 Interestingly as I began praying for his salvation,
11:58 the Lord poured his love into my heart for that person,
12:02 I saw him as that lost and suffering person.
12:04 I could, I don't believe I would have ever been
12:06 able to forgive him in my own power.
12:11 You know, if somebody has been molested
12:14 especially if there's been incest.
12:16 How does one forgive,
12:18 say a father who has molested them,
12:22 it has to be a supernatural power,
12:25 it has to be from God.
12:26 And it is.
12:28 I do see that quite a bit.
12:29 There are an awful lot of people
12:31 in Alcoholics Anonymous who have been molested.
12:34 In fact the statistics are just daunting.
12:36 I say at least 75% of the girls in AA
12:40 and at least 50% of the men
12:43 and that's an enormous amount of heartache and resentment.
12:48 It's very difficult for them to get pass that.
12:53 And yet they do. They do.
12:55 And they go on to live not only happy lives
12:58 but to be able to pray
13:00 for the people who have harmed them,
13:02 to see them as sick human beings
13:05 in need of their own higher power
13:07 to save them from what has happened.
13:12 I want to talk a little bit about
13:14 the deliberateness of forgiveness.
13:17 We need to be deliberate about forgiveness,
13:20 I believe that.
13:21 There are a couple of stories that I want to tell real quick.
13:24 One is about Clara Barton,
13:25 she was of course the lady that started the Red Cross
13:29 and she was lecturing apparently in Europe
13:31 as I remember the story, I hope I have it right.
13:34 And a man showed up and listened to her lecture
13:37 that it harmed her in a very serious way
13:41 years before.
13:42 And he walked up to her and spoke with her
13:44 and thanked her for her lecture and talked to her.
13:47 And she was very gracious to him
13:48 and her friend, another lady there that was her friend,
13:52 as soon as he walked away she says
13:54 how could you ever even speak to this man
13:56 after what he did to you.
13:59 And Clara turned to her and she smiled and she says,
14:02 I distinctly remember having forgiven,
14:06 forgotten all about that.
14:07 I distinctly remember forgetting all about that.
14:10 That's good. We have to deliberate.
14:12 Another story that comes to mind
14:14 is one that Ruth Graham wrote in one of her books
14:19 and she has talked about this before about a Bedouin.
14:24 An old man who was living, you know, in that,
14:27 in his tent and somebody came running into his tent
14:31 and asked for refuge
14:33 because he was being pursued by band of other men.
14:37 And they came to the door of his tent
14:39 and the old man stood in the door
14:40 and they said, "You need to send him out."
14:43 And he said, "No, he's asked for my protection,
14:45 I will protect him."
14:46 And he says, "But you don't understand,
14:48 this man killed somebody."
14:50 And the old man said,
14:51 "Until he gets a fair trial, I will protect him."
14:54 And he says, "Old man, you don't understand,
14:56 he killed your son."
14:59 And the old man stood there for a moment, visibly shaken
15:03 and then he looked the accusers in the eye
15:06 and he said, "Then he will be my son."
15:10 That's forgiveness at a level
15:13 that I don't understand
15:16 and yet I know it exists
15:17 and I know from the stories we hear
15:20 about people who have children or loved ones murdered
15:24 and they go to the prison
15:25 and they care about that person more
15:29 than they care about hanging on to that hatred and that anger.
15:33 All of this is to say
15:35 that after writing a very long list of people
15:38 that I had harmed
15:40 and having experienced that forgiveness
15:43 that only God could give me to pass on
15:45 to certain people in my life who had hurt me.
15:50 I had the opportunity to start making those amends.
15:53 And I was surprised, most of them went very well.
15:58 Most of the people that I had harmed,
16:00 even the ones I'd owed money to or harmed deeply
16:04 were more than gracious.
16:05 They were so happy to see that, you know,
16:08 and then these are people
16:09 I thought would yell and scream at me,
16:11 but they were genuinely happy to see
16:13 that my life had turned around.
16:16 They were a few that were a little cool
16:20 and I did my very best.
16:22 I have to tell you that making amends
16:24 means making it right, if at all possible,
16:28 to not only mend the relationship,
16:31 not only say, "I'm sorry"
16:33 it's not about saying I'm sorry.
16:34 Restitution. It's restitution.
16:37 If I owed money, I needed to pay it back.
16:39 And in my case there were several instances
16:42 where creditors were looking for me and all the rest in.
16:46 I chose to pay it back with interest,
16:47 not everyone does.
16:49 I think the AA says
16:50 make the best deal you can with them.
16:52 But in my case, you know,
16:54 when they offered me a discounted rate
16:56 or you only have to pay back so much,
16:58 I chose to go back and pay them everything I owed them.
17:02 And that was what I needed to do.
17:05 I'm not telling anyone else to do that,
17:06 but I believe that's the principle.
17:08 There are people I know who have paid
17:10 hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars back
17:13 over very long periods of time.
17:15 But they are faithful in making those payments, to make that,
17:19 to make that right and they are truly free people.
17:24 And I think the Lord honors that.
17:26 I won't use his name but I worked for someone
17:29 who had a syndicated financial column
17:31 and he lived in the Colorado area.
17:35 When he, or may be it was Salt Lake City
17:38 but anyway, when he had been
17:42 in early in his business career,
17:44 he had to file bankruptcy because he got into
17:48 a lot of trouble, millions of dollars.
17:50 I think it was like $8 million but he determined in his heart,
17:55 he would make a comeback and he did and you know what?
17:58 Even though it had been legally wiped away,
18:01 he went back and he paid every penny to the creditors
18:06 who had the slate had been wiped clean in bankruptcy
18:10 and the Lord blessed him in such an incredible way,
18:13 I mean he became a very wealthy man
18:16 because of it I believe it and I think,
18:18 you know, obviously restitution is a principle
18:22 that we find in the Bible.
18:24 And it's quite amazing.
18:27 My dad likes to tell me that, you know,
18:30 when we forgive somebody,
18:35 the biblical principles found in the Bible,
18:38 the principles found in the Bible indicate
18:41 that we are duty bound to do everything we can
18:46 to redeem that person.
18:48 If they have harmed us and we forgive them,
18:52 we need to go back and do everything we can
18:55 for that person.
18:56 That's a concept that's foreign to today's society.
19:00 You know, today society, I like to say that, you know,
19:03 in America anyway we play baseball forgiveness.
19:06 Three strikes and you're out, you know.
19:08 I will never speak to you again.
19:10 I will give you three chances,
19:12 if you burn me once that's my bad.
19:14 Burn me twice I'm really dumb
19:17 and burn me three times, I'm done with you.
19:19 You know, Jesus Himself said, "Forgive them 70 times 7"
19:23 and that's just getting started.
19:25 That's, these are hard concepts and I'm happy to tell you
19:29 that people in AA really struggle,
19:32 but really get a deep understanding
19:34 about this forgiveness, and again,
19:36 probably because we've been forgiven so much ourselves
19:40 that we become people who can forgive
19:44 and who choose to forgive, deliberately choose to forgive.
19:48 Right, that's where the healing comes...
19:50 I mean, this is, if you don't get to the root of the problem
19:53 in most people it's the pain of unforgiveness, the bitterness,
19:57 the resentment.
19:59 You can maybe cut off the fruit of it,
20:02 stop the behavior of alcoholism,
20:05 but if you don't get to the root of it,
20:07 and it's true for you and me,
20:08 doesn't matter what the problem is,
20:09 we'll talk about alcoholism,
20:11 but put any problematic behavior in there
20:14 and that's true.
20:17 Here's something that's interesting
20:19 when you know the steps 8 and 9,
20:22 "Make a list of all the persons you've harmed,
20:25 be willing to make amends
20:26 and try to make these direct amends."
20:29 I just believe,
20:30 and I haven't thought of this story in so long.
20:32 There are probably people who are watching from home
20:35 and you're thinking,
20:36 "Well, I have never really done anything
20:37 that I would need to make this list for."
20:39 I remember when I went back to school
20:42 or back to college when I was 28-29 years old
20:47 and one night I was praying and I was reading my Bible,
20:52 it's about 10 o'clock at night,
20:53 and I came upon the passage
20:55 where Jesus was asking the rich man, He said,
21:02 "Why do you call me good? No one's good except God."
21:05 Well, it confused me.
21:06 I didn't realize that Jesus was testing him to see,
21:09 are you saying I am God?
21:10 That didn't, I am thinking, oh, wait a minute, you are,
21:14 why would you even ask that 'cause you are God.
21:16 But then I am going,
21:17 but Lord everybody's always telling me
21:20 what a good person I am.
21:22 They're telling me I have a gift of helps
21:24 and I'm always doing this for that for strangers
21:27 and da da da da da.
21:29 And, so I said,
21:30 "Lord, what do you mean only God is good."
21:33 People tell me how good I am, show me if I'm not good.
21:37 This is like 10:30 to 11 o'clock at night
21:40 and by 6 o'clock in the morning,
21:44 it was an amazing thing.
21:45 It was almost like God was taking me
21:47 on this panoramic, cinematic experience
21:52 showing me where something's I thought
21:55 I was doing that were good.
21:58 I was doing 'cause I needed affirmation
22:01 or I wanted to look good myself.
22:04 I mean, He was just taking me through things
22:08 that I believe that all of us
22:10 have a higher opinion of ourselves than we ought.
22:14 If we can see our self in God's eyes
22:16 would realize there's probably
22:19 every one of us need to make a list like this
22:22 and think, Lord, show me where I've hurt somebody
22:24 especially if we call ourselves Christians.
22:27 Because we can do things that harm the reputation
22:32 in the name of Christ, you know, as Christians,
22:35 that we're supposed to be reflecting His love
22:37 and if we are,
22:38 if we were insensitive for doing something,
22:41 then we need to make amends for.
22:43 There is, there is no doubt that that's true
22:46 and you know another thing that strikes me is
22:49 when we are the recipients of so much grace
22:52 from the people that we ask forgiveness for.
22:57 You know, it can't help but changes.
23:00 In the AA, a lot of meetings you will hear people read
23:03 what they commonly refer to as the 12 promises,
23:07 and I'm not sure I can quote them all
23:09 right off the top off my head, I should be able to but,
23:13 it's really 9 step promises.
23:16 It says if we're painstaking
23:18 about this phase of our development,
23:20 we will be amazed before we're half way through.
23:23 We're going to know a new freedom and a new happiness.
23:26 We will not regret the past
23:27 nor wish to shut the door on it.
23:29 We will comprehend the words serenity
23:31 and we will know peace,
23:33 no matter how far down the scale we've gone,
23:35 we will see how our experience can benefit others.
23:38 That feeling of uselessness and self pity will disappear.
23:42 Our whole outlook on life will change...
23:44 Condemnation is gone.
23:46 And we will suddenly realize that God is doing for us
23:49 what we could not do for ourselves.
23:51 And then it says, are these extravagant promises?
23:55 We think not.
23:57 They will always materialize if we work for them.
24:01 You know, sometimes quickly and sometimes slowly.
24:05 The amazing amount of energy
24:08 that these steps release into our lives,
24:13 into our spiritual lives that growth,
24:15 the spiritual growth that I see in people
24:18 who are practicing these principles
24:21 and putting the effort
24:22 into making these amends is amazing,
24:25 I mean it's like they are transformed
24:28 and I had that experience
24:30 and I suddenly was sitting in a meeting
24:32 and they were reading these steps, these promises
24:35 and I was stunned.
24:37 In fact I was moved to tears.
24:38 I thought, oh, it's happened to me.
24:41 You know, they sounded like
24:42 something that might happen someday,
24:45 other times I thought, well, they've all happened already
24:47 but it was overwhelming to realize in an instant
24:51 that all these things were happening in my life
24:54 and God was doing for me
24:55 what I couldn't possibly do for myself.
24:58 From a selfish, self-centered,
25:00 frightened, lonely, miserable, alcoholic
25:04 to a man who could walk up to somebody
25:07 and look them in the eye, make those amends.
25:11 And never have to cross the street,
25:14 walk into another room,
25:15 avoid somebody that's looking in there.
25:16 Guilt, shame, condemnation went out the window.
25:18 Gone, absolutely gone.
25:20 And today, you know, that's how I am used to living.
25:24 You know, the next step will talk about,
25:26 talks about keeping that going in step 10.
25:29 But today, you know, I don't avoid anybody.
25:34 Even the people that I may not care much about their behavior,
25:37 I don't avoid them.
25:39 I can look at them through other eyes, you know,
25:42 I can remember that there are...
25:44 My sponsor told me one time, he says,
25:47 when I was early in recovery, he says, you know,
25:49 I might come up and say, oh, you met so and so,
25:52 they're one of those summer people
25:54 and the person I am referring to
25:56 isn't gonna know what I'm talking about
25:57 but for you it's code word for some are sicker than others so,
26:02 but, you know, even when I meet summer people on the street,
26:05 so to speak, I don't need to avoid them.
26:09 I have nothing to feel guilty or shameful
26:12 and I can see them through God's eyes
26:15 as people who are struggling,
26:18 people who as we referred to another program
26:20 sometimes are drive drunks,
26:22 you know, that's probably the saddest thing for me
26:24 is to see somebody that is not drinking
26:28 but nothing's changed in their life.
26:30 And to know that they're missing out on the life
26:33 I that I have today.
26:34 You know, I have the life,
26:36 I like to say that second to none
26:37 and better than most, you know,
26:39 I really don't have a second class life today.
26:42 I have a disease that is always there
26:45 but you know what I'm grateful for,
26:47 because it helps me toe the line
26:49 and stay close to the one
26:51 that handles my alcoholism everyday.
26:54 And as long as it's in His hand,
26:56 I've nothing to fear.
26:58 I'm not going to get drunk
27:00 and that's not being cocky, that's being confident.
27:03 And I can have that kind of confidence
27:06 because of these steps
27:07 and because God's crazy about me
27:09 as Cheri Peters likes to say, you know.
27:11 Yes, amen. Amen.
27:13 And it's just, I'm so thankful that you are here
27:17 sharing these steps with us
27:18 because we can see the power of these steps
27:22 and just want to encourage you, you know,
27:24 as you said on a previous program, Bob,
27:27 that there are more people, more alcoholics
27:32 who have been healed in church than anywhere else.
27:37 But this is the last house on the block
27:40 for people that it didn't work in church,
27:43 maybe the church has offended them,
27:45 maybe the church has wounded them,
27:46 or maybe they don't believe in the Lord.
27:49 One thing that's interesting is that
27:50 people who become involved with this
27:52 can get beyond that
27:55 and actually get in touch with God.
27:58 Thank you so much for being here with us today.
28:01 We know that you're gonna be coming back
28:03 to our next program,
28:04 we would be talking about steps 10-12.
28:07 So thank you so much for those of you at home.
28:10 If you know someone
28:12 who is struggling with alcoholism,
28:15 just want to recommend
28:16 that you point them to these programs.
28:19 Thank you, bye.