Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Bob
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000460A
00:01 Today on Issues and Answers,
00:02 we're going to be continuing our conversation on alcoholism
00:06 and the way out if you will.
00:08 But one of the most important steps
00:10 is you get to that point that it's,
00:12 "Not my will but yours be done."
00:15 Please join us today on Issues and Answers.
00:48 I am Shelley Quinn,
00:49 and we're so glad that you've joined us today
00:52 on Issues and Answers.
00:53 We're tackling a problem and the problem
00:55 is the issue is that of alcoholism.
00:59 And we're talking about people who have tried everything else
01:04 and nothing's working and a wonderful program called
01:07 Alcoholics Anonymous, a 12 step program.
01:10 Now our special guest today is in the shadow if you will.
01:15 We're keeping him out of the spotlight
01:17 to honor his anonymity.
01:20 He is a member of AA, he's not a spokesperson for AA,
01:23 because AA does not have spokespeople.
01:27 But we are here to learn a little bit more
01:31 about the program,
01:32 The 12 steps to Recovery from our special guest Bob.
01:36 Bob, let me just welcome you once again to the program,
01:40 it's so special that you're here.
01:42 Thank you for sharing your testimony.
01:44 We've heard how you were a very solid sick,
01:50 solidly sick can I say that?
01:52 A solidly sick individual alcoholic
01:57 in the throes of practicing your alcoholism for 11 years,
02:02 now after you went to began
02:06 go attending AA meetings.
02:08 You have now been sober for 26 years and counting.
02:14 You are a sponsor and you're an all around good guy,
02:18 you're a wonderful Christian man.
02:20 We talked last time about the first two steps
02:23 could you just briefly, you knew God,
02:26 but tell us those first two steps
02:28 and let's get into the third step of recovery.
02:31 Well, the first step
02:32 is we admitted we were powerless over alcohol
02:35 and that our lives had become unmanageable.
02:37 The second step, is we came to believe
02:40 that a power greater than ourselves
02:42 could restore us to sanity.
02:44 In transit in that step
02:46 is the idea that I am insane when it comes to alcohol,
02:51 I cannot think straight.
02:52 There is this little lie in my head that says,
02:54 "This time it will be different,
02:56 this time I will behave.
02:58 This time I won't get drunk.
02:59 This time," you know, and every alcoholic,
03:04 every addict of any addiction believes that lie.
03:08 In other words, it's not like you're saying today, you know,
03:11 you won't get drunk but it's like if you're saying,
03:14 "I'll drink and not get drunk," that's what you're saying,
03:16 I can practice my addiction but manage it.
03:20 I can manage it and the problem
03:22 with having to control something
03:23 is anything you can try to control
03:25 is out of control already.
03:28 And the illusion that every alcoholic
03:29 lives under or the delusion if you will is that somehow
03:34 I will find the miracle of self control at some point.
03:38 And because of the way my body
03:40 is when I ingest any amount of alcohol
03:42 into my body whatsoever.
03:44 My body takes over a compulsion to drink takes over,
03:48 my head screams and said stop, my body says,
03:51 "We're not stopping until we're done."
03:54 And so,
03:55 that model AA calls it an Allergy of the Body.
04:00 In other words, it's not truly analogy
04:02 the way we understand allergies and histamines
04:05 and all the other body functions
04:06 that make a true allergy, but the model works well.
04:09 In other words, every time you ingest alcohol,
04:12 there's a predictable reaction
04:16 and the reaction is your body demands more,
04:18 your head cannot control it and you drink
04:20 and you go through your whole drinking spree
04:23 and you come out of it remorseful,
04:25 feeling guilty and shamed
04:27 and then to relieve that guilt and shame
04:29 suddenly we start drinking again,
04:31 so it's a vicious cycle,
04:33 it just keeps going and going and going.
04:35 So that's how, you know,
04:37 I had to come to believe
04:38 that God could do something for me...
04:41 But now, Bobby, one time you did know God.
04:44 You were a church grower,
04:46 you grew up in a Christian home
04:48 and we see so many people in the church
04:51 who are healed of alcoholism without going to AA.
04:58 What is AA all about, what makes it different?
05:01 Why do some people get healed in church, you didn't.
05:04 'Cause you didn't, you said,
05:06 it was because you called on God
05:07 but you weren't ready to surrender.
05:10 So tell us a little bit more,
05:11 define the difference between AA and Church.
05:15 Well, AA has the same solution that church does.
05:18 Basically AA says, you know,
05:22 "There is one who has all power,
05:23 that one is God may you find him now."
05:26 In other words, in order to get past this ailment,
05:29 this disease, this malady,
05:32 I have to find a spiritual solution.
05:34 Most people get sober in church.
05:37 That's where people go to find God,
05:38 that's God's house
05:40 that's the logical place to look.
05:42 But then, there are those of us
05:44 who are particularly either stubborn or damaged
05:47 or run the show a little too long
05:50 and we have tried to come to church
05:52 and we have tried to get sober in church and it has failed us.
05:55 Why does it fail?
05:56 Why do we fail to connect with God in church?
05:59 In many cases that would be our pride,
06:01 it would be our resentments,
06:02 maybe somebody in church had hurt us.
06:05 Maybe it's the hypocrites in church.
06:06 Maybe it's the fact
06:08 that I'm not paying attention to what's going on in me,
06:10 I'm paying attention
06:11 to what's going on in somebody else.
06:12 Maybe I don't like the preacher.
06:14 Maybe I feel like I've tried every church,
06:16 every denomination and that didn't stop my drinking.
06:19 Those are the people that AA says,
06:22 "We have a solution for you.
06:24 We're going to strip away
06:26 all the so-called doctrines
06:29 of this denomination or that denomination."
06:31 We are going to bring it down
06:33 to a level that's so simple that anybody can find God.
06:36 And AA is not interested in becoming a monopoly,
06:40 AA says, "We're trying to help the people
06:42 who have found no help any other way.
06:45 There are people who stop drinking
06:47 and live normal lives by going to counseling.
06:50 There are people who use psychiatrists
06:52 and finally resolve whatever it is in their past that,
06:55 you know, cause them to drink.
06:57 Drinking is only a symptom of what's wrong with us.
06:59 It's not what's wrong with me, it's not that I drank too much.
07:03 The action is the fruit,
07:04 it's not the root of the problem.
07:06 Exactly, my problem, in AA we say,
07:09 our problem is that we are self-centered,
07:11 that we are running the show,
07:13 that we have no other God in our lives besides ourselves.
07:17 And whether you find God in church
07:19 or you find him somewhere else.
07:21 Some people actually find God in nature, God's second book.
07:25 Through nature they finally establish a contact with God.
07:29 Some people, many people,
07:31 I would say them the vast majority of alcoholics
07:33 and people who are addicted to any other addiction
07:36 find their solution in church and I want to make that clear.
07:41 AA has a membership, worldwide membership
07:44 estimated between two and four million.
07:46 There are many, many more millions of people in church
07:50 who are sober and clean because of the place
07:53 they found their connection with God was in church.
07:56 So I've heard you referred to AA
07:58 before as the last house on the block.
08:01 That's right.
08:02 In other words, if you've tried everything else and failed
08:06 and you're not getting over your alcoholic addiction
08:09 or you're not able to recover from this,
08:13 then AA is a great program.
08:16 So what is step three?
08:18 Step three is made a decision
08:20 to turn our will in our lives over to the care of God
08:23 as we understood Him.
08:25 Now this is a very formal step in AA.
08:28 AA says, "Think carefully before you do this,
08:31 do not take this casually."
08:33 You are going to be turning your will and your life
08:37 over to the care of something greater than you
08:41 who can restore you to sanity.
08:43 That's the reference back to the insanity of drinking.
08:47 This is a fearful step for many people,
08:50 when they come to this step in AA
08:51 especially those
08:52 who have just barely allowed God into their lives
08:57 by coming to believe that there is a God.
08:59 People that were raised
09:00 without any sort of concept of God
09:04 sometimes have a difficulty with this,
09:06 but believe it or not, the ones who have the bigger struggle
09:08 like I did with the step are the ones
09:11 who think they know God.
09:13 And the ones who have preconceived ideas
09:18 of what God is all about.
09:20 And it's interesting to me that those
09:23 that used to have some sort of faith
09:25 and then lost it are the ones
09:27 that tend to struggle the most with this step
09:29 because they think they've tried the way of faith
09:31 and tried the way of no faith and they found no answer.
09:35 Well suddenly AA is saying,
09:37 "Put aside everything you think you know, try this step."
09:42 AA also insists that we try to do this step
09:45 with another person with an understanding person.
09:48 For most of us in AA it turns out to be our AA sponsor
09:52 which is just another person who becomes our mentor
09:55 who walks this path with us.
09:59 In some ways would you say,
10:01 what I think of this accountability partner...
10:05 Okay. Absolutely.
10:06 So your sponsor then is helping you
10:09 in watching to see if you really are turning over.
10:13 It's a process of yielding,
10:16 what we call in Christian circles often we say surrender.
10:20 But it is one and of course,
10:23 the scripture that comes to my mind is Philippians 2:13,
10:26 "That it is God who works in you
10:29 both to will and to do his good pleasure."
10:33 And this is a step, I think I like
10:35 what I'm liking about the steps that we're hearing,
10:38 it's something every Christian
10:40 really actually has to go through,
10:42 so turning over how did,
10:45 how did your sponsor help you in learning
10:49 to let go and let God be in control.
10:53 Well, first let me tell you about
10:54 the process of step three.
10:57 Step three is not just a mental admission
11:01 that God is now in control of my life.
11:03 Step three involves a very specific prayer
11:06 and I have my book Alcoholics Anonymous with me,
11:08 if you don't mind I will read it with you.
11:11 It says, "We were now at step three
11:13 and many of us said to our maker
11:15 as we understood Him.
11:17 God, I offer myself to thee to build with me
11:21 and to do with me is though wilt.
11:23 Relieve me of the bondage of self
11:26 that I may better do thy will.
11:28 Take away my difficulties
11:30 that victory over them may bear witness
11:33 to those I would help of thy power,
11:36 thy love and thy way of life.
11:38 May I do thy will always."
11:41 We pray this prayer with another person.
11:44 I always wondered why it asked me
11:46 to pray this with another person.
11:49 And one day, I was thinking about witnesses.
11:53 When I have a witness, for example,
11:56 all the important things
11:57 in this world require witnesses.
11:59 Witness is a very biblical.
12:01 That's where God set up in the first place.
12:03 But if somebody is getting married,
12:05 they need witnesses.
12:07 If a peace treaty is signed, the more witnesses the better.
12:12 Why is it that we require witnesses?
12:14 Because it makes it more real to us as human beings.
12:18 When I have another man with me and in my case,
12:21 I got on my knees, he got on his knees
12:24 and we pray, I pray this prayer,
12:25 and of course, the wording is quite optional,
12:28 so I added to this prayer my own words
12:30 and I turned myself completely over to God
12:33 as I understood God.
12:36 With him as my witness,
12:37 I know that for the rest of my life
12:39 and the rest of that man's life,
12:41 I know that that was a real moment.
12:43 It wasn't a figment of my imagination,
12:46 it wasn't the fluke where one day
12:47 I just felt like saying this prayer,
12:49 this prayer has become reality in my life
12:52 but I needed that formal step
12:54 to take that step with my sponsor.
12:57 And it was one of the most amazing experiences.
12:59 I honestly say you know at the end of it says,
13:03 that the wording was quite optional
13:06 so long as we express the idea
13:08 voicing it without reservation.
13:10 This was only a beginning
13:11 though if honestly and humbly made an effect.
13:14 Sometimes a very great one was felt at once.
13:17 I looked for a high at the end of this prayer and I got none.
13:22 And it bothered me.
13:23 On the way home, I was thinking God, I don't feel anything.
13:28 God, I don't feel anything.
13:31 And suddenly I realized that was my experience.
13:34 I felt none of the fear and the guilt and the shame
13:40 and all that stuff and the worry,
13:42 I literally felt free.
13:44 And as soon as I realized that "feeling nothing"
13:50 meant that I was finally free.
13:51 Well then, I got the high I was hoping for
13:55 because I hadn't felt that before in my life.
13:57 Suddenly I don't have to make the decisions in my life.
14:01 Suddenly somebody else is in control.
14:04 In our steps, it says, "We were reborn."
14:09 To be born again.
14:11 The literature in AA, I have to say this,
14:14 if you are a Christian
14:15 and you read this book Alcoholics Anonymous,
14:17 over and over and over you're going to find
14:19 literally direct quotes from the Bible.
14:22 It's an amazing thing, it says here,
14:24 when we sincerely took this position of turning
14:27 our will over to God, this third step,
14:29 all sorts of remarkable things follow, these are promises.
14:32 We had a new employer with a capital E.
14:36 We know who that is,
14:37 being all powerful he provided what we needed
14:39 if we kept close to him and performed his work well,
14:42 established on such a footing
14:44 we became less and less interested in ourselves,
14:47 our little plans and designs,
14:49 more and more we became interested in seeing
14:51 what we could contribute to life.
14:53 As we felt new power flow and who doesn't need a new power.
14:57 As we felt,
14:59 as we enjoyed peace of mind who doesn't want that.
15:03 As we discovered, we could face life successfully
15:06 as we became conscious of God's presence.
15:09 We began to lose our fear of today, tomorrow,
15:13 and the hereafter and hear the words, "We were reborn."
15:18 All my life I wanted to do it over again,
15:22 if I could just do it over again knowing what I know,
15:26 and now I get to.
15:27 I get to remember everything I've learned
15:30 up until this point and start over again a brand new life,
15:35 and if that isn't as close to baptism,
15:37 I don't know what is, you know,
15:39 literally to be born again
15:41 and be a new creature in Christ.
15:42 But see, you know, 2 Corinthians 5:17 says,
15:47 that "We are new creations of Christ Jesus."
15:50 The old is gone, the new has come.
15:52 And suddenly have such a hard time believing that
15:54 but for me that prayer that you read
15:58 the prayer of surrender.
16:00 That's something that I have to go through
16:01 on a daily basis nearly is just,
16:04 so do you find yourself day by day surrendering and...
16:07 This is why it's so important that we understand,
16:11 if we want God to work in us
16:14 to will and to do his good pleasure.
16:16 He's got a plan for your life.
16:18 And if you're sitting home right now,
16:20 you may have a beer in one hand and a cigarette in the other,
16:25 and you may feel like you started watching
16:27 this to laugh at the silly little lady
16:29 and this man that's in the shadow.
16:32 But God had you tuned in to this program on purpose
16:36 because He's got a plan for your life
16:38 and listen to what He can do
16:41 just as He did in your life, Bob.
16:44 There is...
16:45 If you look at this prayer carefully,
16:47 it starts by saying,
16:48 "I offer myself to you to do whatever you want with me."
16:51 The second part is a request.
16:54 God, please relieve me of my bondage
16:57 to self of my selfishness
16:59 of trying to run the show all the time.
17:03 That I may better do your will, not my will, His will.
17:07 The second request is take away my difficulties,
17:10 take away my drinking obsession,
17:13 and my other difficulties, why?
17:15 So that victory over them may bear witness.
17:17 I want to be your witness of your power,
17:20 your love and your way of life.
17:22 I want to show other people,
17:25 which is an integral part of AA
17:27 is once you've been relieved, go and tell others.
17:32 Go and help others.
17:33 The antidote to selfishness and self centeredness
17:36 which is the root of our problems in AA
17:39 is to help other people to be selfless and selflessness,
17:44 it does not mean I think less of myself.
17:46 It says that I think of myself less
17:48 and I think of other people more.
17:50 And, you know, this is again
17:52 according to the biblical model.
17:54 I mean Jesus,
17:56 whenever He healed the demoniac,
17:59 it was go and tell,
18:00 He was constantly He would heal,
18:02 go and tell.
18:03 So this is something that God wants us to be a witness
18:07 and I just want to share this scripture
18:08 with someone at home who needs to hear it.
18:10 This is a promise from Psalm 129:4, it said, it says,
18:17 "The Lord is righteous,
18:18 He is cut in pieces the cords of the wicked."
18:22 So when you pray and say Lord,
18:25 release me from...
18:26 The bondage
18:28 The bondage, release me from fear,
18:30 release me from this addiction, God,
18:34 if you are surrendered He will,
18:37 and it is a day by day surrender
18:39 and it's a day by day recovery, correct?
18:41 Absolutely. Correct.
18:42 Okay, so when you...
18:44 then I think we've got enough time
18:46 to take us from step three to let's go to step four.
18:50 Step four is made a fearless
18:52 and searching moral inventory of ourselves.
18:55 And that sounds like a tough job.
18:58 And honestly it is a tough job.
18:59 That's kind of the search me, oh, God and know my heart,
19:02 my wicked...
19:03 show if there is any wicked ways.
19:05 And believe me, if you ask Him,
19:07 He will show it.
19:09 AA has come up with a very simple way of doing this.
19:12 We have three lists that we write out on paper,
19:15 it's not in our heads, it's on paper.
19:18 The first list is a resentment list.
19:20 I need to look at every single person
19:22 that I have a resentment with,
19:23 and I need to list their name next to their name I list,
19:29 You know why I have this resentment?
19:31 Let's say, you know, John, hurt my feelings because, you know,
19:36 he, I don't know whatever he did
19:39 and I'm hanging on to this resentment,
19:41 I need to list it, I need to list why.
19:43 And then I need to look at how it affects me.
19:46 AA says, "Does it affect your self-esteem?
19:49 Does it affect how you feel about yourself?
19:51 Does it affect your ambitions,
19:53 what you wanted to do at the time?
19:55 Does it affect your personal relations
19:57 with other people beyond the person
19:58 that you have the resentment with."
20:00 In other words, did it affect your family
20:01 or his family or other friends.
20:03 Did it affect your sex relations,
20:05 if you're married that it cause a problem.
20:08 And was there fear involved and financial security.
20:12 Those are the main areas
20:15 that alcoholics seem to cop resentments with,
20:18 something that affects any one of those things
20:20 they get angry, they're resentful,
20:22 they refuse to forgive,
20:24 and then in the fourth column we write down.
20:27 Did we have a part in this?
20:29 Did our dishonesty, our selfishness,
20:32 our self-seeking or our own fear
20:35 cause this problem or aggravate this problem.
20:38 Now there are a few instances where things have happened
20:42 for somebody, for example, who was molested as a child,
20:45 they did not do anything to cause that to happen.
20:48 But they still have a part in this resentment,
20:51 you know, what that part is in every resentment,
20:53 I refused to forgive.
20:55 Yeah. That's my part.
20:57 I choose to hang on to that and I need to see
21:01 that I'm hanging on to these things.
21:03 I need to see that I caused many of these things.
21:06 I see that my behavior put me in a position
21:08 to be hurt by other people
21:10 or you know and did that have a part.
21:13 Again not that anyone's behavior put them in a position
21:18 to be molested, that's not what you're saying.
21:20 No, exactly.
21:21 You're saying by your behavior of holding on to something...
21:24 Yes. Is creating the hurt.
21:26 And creating the drinking, when I'm resentful I drink
21:30 because I need to get relief.
21:31 So resentment is the number one thing
21:33 that gets alcoholics drunk.
21:35 And we have to be freer, free of that anger.
21:38 Isn't this true of all of us
21:41 that resentment is now,
21:45 you know, I know that Paul wrote and said,
21:50 "Forgetting what is behind I press forward."
21:52 I know that Isaiah says, you know, God says,
21:55 "Don't dwell on the past, release the past.
21:58 I want to do a new thing in you."
21:59 But what we've got to do
22:01 before God can do a new thing in us,
22:04 is we've got to go back and expose the root
22:07 and so often, you know,
22:09 we as Christians don't want to revisit
22:11 or anybody, who wants to revisit
22:12 something that's painful,
22:14 but this is the route where you've been wounded,
22:16 you hold a resentment,
22:18 this is the root of the problem.
22:20 There is bitterness, there's anger,
22:22 and I don't know, sometimes you said,
22:24 that you're choosing not to forgive,
22:26 some people have no idea how to forgive.
22:30 If you've been molested as a child.
22:32 If you've gone through this.
22:33 You've got no idea how to let go of this.
22:37 So step four, you're making this inventory and then seeing,
22:42 was I involved in any way in this.
22:45 But step five, tell me how do you let go.
22:48 Well, I could tell you actually in AA step eight
22:52 is where we let go of our resentments.
22:54 And that's when we're listing the people we have harmed.
22:58 We suddenly realize that as we go before them,
23:01 in many cases we have harmed them,
23:03 but they have harmed us too.
23:05 And before we let go,
23:08 we make amends for the harms we have done.
23:10 We need to start by forgiving them one and all.
23:14 We cannot afford to hang on to a resentment
23:16 because it will get us drunk sooner or later.
23:19 So what happened in my experience
23:21 is there were some things, a few things in my life
23:24 where people had hurt me very deeply.
23:26 And I had no part
23:27 in this except for hanging on to the anger.
23:30 And in some cases, people have come up to the point
23:34 where they just realize
23:35 they don't have it in them to forgive,
23:38 the wound is so deep.
23:40 For example, a child that's molested.
23:43 How in the world do you forgive somebody for that?
23:46 Especially if the person has perhaps passed on...
23:49 And it was a grandfather that did or something.
23:52 So what AA says is, ask God for forgiveness...
23:56 Yeah, it is a gift. To give to that person.
24:00 Yes, yes.
24:02 Whether they asked for it or not ask God,
24:05 I don't have it in me but I know you do.
24:07 You can forgive this person.
24:09 Give me your forgiveness and I will pass it on to them,
24:13 and somehow as it goes through me,
24:16 it cleans out that resentment out of my heart.
24:19 It heals that pain and it changes me on the inside
24:24 when I receive forgiveness and pass it on to someone else,
24:28 it heals my heart.
24:29 That's where I found
24:31 that kind of forgiveness was in step eight.
24:34 But you're back on step four.
24:35 Let me quickly add a few things.
24:37 The second list we do is a fear list.
24:40 We list our fears and next to them
24:43 if we know why we have that fear we actually list it.
24:46 The third part of that step is a difficult one
24:50 and that's a sex inventory.
24:52 Alcoholics tend to be very promiscuous.
24:55 We have to list every person we can remember
24:59 that we have had some sort of sexual relation with
25:02 and the harm we have caused them we look at,
25:05 did I arouse jealousy or suspicion
25:07 or bitterness in that person.
25:09 Did I give them a reason to be angry with me?
25:12 Did I hurt them in what way
25:14 and what should I have done instead.
25:16 And we list all these things out.
25:18 In the end, those three lists deal with the four things
25:22 that will get alcoholics drunk faster than anything.
25:24 Number one, resentment, anger.
25:27 Number two, fear
25:28 and the sex inventory deals with the things
25:30 we feel guilty about and ashamed about.
25:33 So anger, fear, guilt and shame
25:35 are dealt with in this force that in a marvelous way.
25:39 To me, it looks like laser surgery.
25:42 You're not hurting everything around it,
25:44 you go straight to the core
25:46 of what makes a person want to drink,
25:49 want to seek relief
25:50 from the anger, the fear, the guilt and shame
25:53 and you deal specifically with those things.
25:55 You don't need 20 years of psychotherapy
25:58 to come up with probably nothing on that list.
26:01 You need something simple and AA is simple at its core.
26:04 You know, I think
26:06 that there's probably a number of people,
26:07 Bob, that would really benefit from this because, you know,
26:14 we're talking about alcohol, alcoholism specifically,
26:18 but there's many other addictions,
26:20 including the addiction of overworking.
26:22 I know for myself personally
26:26 because of things that had happened in my past.
26:28 What I exhibited, what I manifested was overwork
26:33 because I felt like I was in control
26:35 as long as I was, you know,
26:38 being productive and giving in to something,
26:40 so this is an inventory and many of these steps.
26:44 It sounds like steps that we've all been through
26:48 or have to go through for healing
26:51 no matter what your problem is,
26:54 so we're down to one minute.
26:56 I cannot believe this.
26:59 Were the people involved
27:01 in founding this of a particular
27:05 or where they Christian or they...
27:09 They were both exposed to a group
27:11 called the Oxford groups, which was a Christian group.
27:14 But honestly Dr. Bob who was one of the co-founders.
27:20 He was a religious man, he went to church every week
27:23 and he had tried to get sober,
27:24 but he was missing a piece of the puzzle that Bill,
27:27 who was a totally un-churched agnostic
27:30 when he came to believe in God, gave him the solution
27:34 and that is he needed to be convinced
27:36 that alcoholism was a deadly, fatal, progressive,
27:39 incurable disease and that's exactly what happened,
27:42 when he was desperate enough,
27:44 then he applied the spiritual principles
27:47 with a willingness
27:48 he'd never been able to muster before.
27:50 And the two of them got sober together
27:53 and formed what we now know is Alcoholics Anonymous.
27:56 Bob, thank you so much for being again with us today,
27:59 and we'd like you to come back next week
28:01 so that we can continue.
28:03 We've gone through the first three, four steps,
28:06 first four steps but, that's only out of 12,
28:10 we're gonna have to talk fast next time.
28:13 Thank you so much for joining us.
28:15 And our heart, I just want you to know
28:17 that our hearts and our prayers are with you
28:19 and we know that God can give you victory.