Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Jennifer Schwirzer
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000452A
00:29 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn.
00:30 And we welcome you again to Issues and Answers.
00:32 This is a program where we talk about issues
00:35 that are relevant to your life, things,
00:37 problems that people have really around the world.
00:41 And today we're going to be talking about something
00:43 that I think is very critical
00:45 and that is healing from trauma.
00:48 Posttraumatic stress syndrome but not just for war veterans
00:53 who are coming home, but individuals like you and me
00:56 who have been through a traumatic event in our lives.
00:59 And how that affects us mentally, emotionally,
01:03 even physically.
01:04 So our special guest today and I'm so excited
01:08 that she's here with us is Jennifer Jill Schwirzer.
01:11 And Jennifer is from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
01:14 She is a licensed professional counselor
01:17 and an author.
01:18 Jennifer, we are so glad that you're here with us today.
01:21 Welcome. Good to be here.
01:22 Glad to be here. I have to say, you...
01:25 You have, God has given you such a gift of expression.
01:29 You write such beautiful things.
01:33 And I'm so glad I'm on your e-mail list
01:35 because I get your updates from time to time,
01:38 and it's just a treasure to read them.
01:39 You know I see it as knitting like women knit or say,
01:43 I see it as knitting words.
01:45 I do it as kind of a hobby. Yeah.
01:47 That's beautiful. Yeah.
01:49 Before we hop into our topic,
01:51 you have been a frequent guest on 3ABN,
01:54 but we've got so many new viewers from
01:57 that are added every day.
01:59 Tell us a little bit about your life?
02:01 Oh, my life.
02:02 Well, I live in the Philadelphia area
02:04 and I run a private counseling practice
02:06 out of my home office.
02:08 And I write books and articles and I'm also a musician.
02:11 I live with my husband.
02:14 We have two grown children and I have an adorable dog.
02:18 What is his name?
02:19 His name is Fred.
02:21 Fred, we were just talking about she said...
02:22 And I miss him. Yes.
02:24 She said that she was almost obsessed with it because...
02:27 Yeah, I love my dog.
02:28 He is, it's an easy relationship.
02:30 It's an easy relationship. That's right.
02:32 Now, did you grow up in a Christian home?
02:35 No. Well, I did.
02:36 I would call it a nominal Christian home.
02:38 We did attend church.
02:39 I wouldn't say that I had a walk with Jesus growing up.
02:44 That came to me at 18, 19 years old,
02:46 when I met him for the first time.
02:49 Why don't we, that's...
02:51 That's a whole different story.
02:52 I know, I've just said, okay, let's talk about that,
02:54 but we want to jump into our topic for today.
02:58 You were telling me and sharing just a little of a story
03:00 about Eugene when we were in the greenroom.
03:01 Tell us about Eugene? Yes, Eugene, a client of mine.
03:04 And he is a very good illustration
03:09 of what I'm going to be talking about today
03:10 which is trauma recovery.
03:12 His whole story really
03:13 has the signature of God upon it.
03:16 And I'll give it to you in brief.
03:18 Eugene came to me after his wife died,
03:21 he is in his late 40s and Eugene's history
03:25 is one of the most desperate
03:27 and horrible that I've ever heard.
03:29 This man was raised in a very abusive home
03:32 and was violently abused, sexually and physically
03:35 by his father from the time he was three.
03:38 So he went through that horrific childhood
03:39 where his moral sensibilities
03:41 were affected by the environment,
03:43 like he just didn't even really know the difference
03:46 between right and wrong.
03:47 So Eugene came into adulthood, severely compromised
03:51 and interestingly enough,
03:52 his father was a deacon of a church.
03:55 So he came into adulthood very compromised
03:57 and unfortunately developed his own sexual addiction.
04:01 I think out of the environment which he'd been raised
04:04 and the trauma he'd experienced.
04:06 And unfortunately some of that sexual addiction involved
04:09 child pornography which is illegal.
04:11 Well, he didn't even really understand that.
04:13 In fact, he remembers the moment it came to him
04:16 in a counseling session
04:17 that it was truly exploitive to children
04:20 and that it was illegal to even view child pornography.
04:24 This is how compromised his moral understanding was.
04:28 And so Eugene came into adulthood
04:30 very compromised, terrible pornography addiction.
04:33 He was married and his wife died
04:37 and that's what drove him to come to counseling.
04:39 It was a wake up call that God used to get him
04:42 to the place where he wanted to do anything
04:45 to get out of that lifestyle.
04:47 And so he came to counseling
04:48 and he was the most serious recovery client
04:53 I've ever had.
04:54 He was so committed to recovery and the Lord blessed him.
04:57 And very quickly he got out of that lifestyle.
05:00 The sort of addendum to the story is that
05:03 he was in the process of cleaning off
05:05 the hard drives.
05:06 He had many hard drives in his home
05:08 that had these images on them.
05:09 He was a kind of a computer geek
05:11 and so he has lots and lots of hard drives.
05:13 And he was in the process of cleaning them off
05:16 and you have to hook your hard drive up
05:17 to a computer and he hooked his phone up
05:20 around the same time and accidentally uploaded
05:23 all of those images to what we call the cloud
05:26 and the Internet service provider
05:28 found those images,
05:29 sent the county to his door with eight detectives.
05:32 And now he's facing jail time. Oh, bless his heart.
05:35 And you know, it breaks my heart
05:37 because this man has already, he's not a danger to children,
05:40 he's out of the lifestyle.
05:41 It's true he broke the law, and the law is the law.
05:45 At the same time, it makes my heart ache
05:47 because he's already had so much difficulty in his life
05:50 and I just feel like, going to prison
05:52 is just one more insult upon him,
05:54 but I have to surrender it to the Lord
05:56 and he surrenders it to the Lord and says,
05:58 they meant it for evil but God meant it for good,
06:00 just like Joseph said of his time in prison.
06:03 So no matter, you know, this is what impressed me
06:06 when you were talking about him in the greenroom was that
06:09 this was a man who came to you very broken,
06:12 but as you introduced him to God and he really got to see
06:17 the picture of a loving God, you mentioned that
06:20 for everything he's been through,
06:22 he still has a very buoyant spirit.
06:24 He's incredible.
06:26 He is so completely free of self-pity.
06:28 Many people that have been through abuse struggle
06:31 with self-pity and for good reason,
06:33 you can almost give them the right to that
06:35 but it doesn't tend to help them really
06:37 when they even wallow in what happened to them.
06:39 He is a quite different than that,
06:42 he's a very, very positive,
06:44 very, very unwilling to be bitter
06:48 and resentful toward his father.
06:50 He's gone through the process of forgiving his father.
06:52 And he's in spite of all that's going on
06:54 in his life, he's very positive.
06:57 Anybody that can say, the devil meant it for evil
06:59 but God meant it for good.
07:01 That is absolutely true. That's right.
07:02 And everything,
07:03 this is the amazing thing about God.
07:05 You know, He doesn't cause evil,
07:08 the devil causes evil, but God allows evil
07:11 because He has to allow sin to manifest itself
07:15 for what it really is.
07:16 He has to allow us the freedom to sin.
07:18 And so He allows evil but what He does is,
07:21 He's constantly in the process of then
07:24 owning that those things,
07:25 those unfortunate things that happen
07:27 and turning them into really monuments
07:30 for His glory if people will allow Him
07:32 to work with them and that's what He has done
07:34 in Eugene's life.
07:36 He's going to use this man in prison
07:38 if that's where he ends up
07:40 and it looks like he will end up there.
07:41 Well, let me ask you this question.
07:43 Would you say that Eugene suffered
07:45 from posttraumatic stress syndrome?
07:46 I do believe he did.
07:48 In fact there was a period of time
07:49 when memories were coming back, he was having nightmares,
07:52 he would even react in such a way
07:54 that he would wake up
07:56 with a physical marks on his body
07:57 as a result of nightmares about getting attacked by his father.
08:02 And so he was having severe PTSD symptoms.
08:06 And we had to work through...
08:08 When you said, "physical marks," excuse me!
08:09 Yeah, I know, I know.
08:11 You're saying, it can warp some things, right?
08:12 Hard to believe but apparently
08:13 there's such an intimate relationship
08:15 between the body and the mind
08:16 that this is not an uncommon thing.
08:18 You know, it is not that difficult for me
08:19 to believe in, when I was in college
08:22 we did a test in psychology, where we took
08:26 and it was meant to be an innocent test
08:28 but, something we were curious about.
08:31 We took an ice cube, blindfolded someone,
08:34 put an ice cube on their arm, and at the very same time
08:37 took a branding iron to a steak,
08:40 and seared the steak
08:42 which was releasing the smell of flesh.
08:46 A smell of flesh, just in the room,
08:48 and just his brain smelling the smell of flesh,
08:51 feeling the ice cube which I guess,
08:54 the brain distinguish whether it was an ice cube
08:57 or a hot searing iron.
09:00 He actually got a very bad burn where the ice cube touched.
09:03 Isn't that something?
09:05 And so the brain is reacting, that is something.
09:08 And this man had those kinds of experiences
09:10 where he would wake up with marks on his body
09:13 that correlated with whatever dream he had,
09:15 very, very bizarre.
09:16 So he went through a process
09:17 of really processing that trauma,
09:20 but at this point he has pretty much let go
09:23 and come out the other end, so it's really a miracle.
09:25 Okay, so what are...
09:28 Give us the symptoms because I'm sure
09:30 that there's someone who's watching
09:31 that will want to know,
09:33 what are the symptoms of posttraumatic stress syndrome?
09:36 Because someone could be in a bad accident,
09:38 they can witness a murder.
09:39 They could have physical or sexual abuse.
09:42 There's so many things that can happen that causes.
09:45 What are the symptoms? Right.
09:46 The three classic markers for PTS syndrome,
09:51 they're calling it syndrome now because they figure,
09:53 it's not really a disorder, it means,
09:54 it's an appropriate response to trauma.
09:56 So the three markers are nightmares,
09:59 flashbacks and extreme trigger ability
10:02 where you get around anything that reminds you of that trauma
10:06 and you go back to that place.
10:08 So let me clarify on
10:10 how normal memory processing takes place
10:12 and that will help us understand
10:14 posttraumatic stress.
10:15 Normal memory processing involves experiencing
10:19 some kind of trauma
10:21 and then for usually a couple of days anyway,
10:24 after that trauma, you kind of are still
10:27 in that emotional place.
10:28 For instance, you have a car accident,
10:30 and for the next 24 hours every time you remember
10:33 the car accident, you feel those feelings all over again,
10:36 but gradually as you process that memory,
10:39 the mind takes out the emotional charge so that,
10:42 it's kind of like a filing system in the brain
10:44 where you can file the memory in terms of fact
10:47 and you can recall that memory
10:49 without re-experiencing those emotions.
10:51 That is normal healthy memory processing.
10:55 I have a friend who lost her leg
10:57 in a car accident and she was telling me
10:59 about the experience and how she lost her leg,
11:02 and she went through all the details of that,
11:04 and the thing that was remarkable about her
11:06 telling me this is that she was smiling the whole time,
11:09 but that was because she processed the event.
11:11 She had loved ones, family support,
11:13 she talked about it, talked it through
11:15 and her brain was able to process
11:17 to where she can recall the facts
11:18 without re-experiencing it.
11:20 What happens with posttraumatic stress,
11:22 it is thought is that that processing
11:24 never really took place.
11:26 The memory is inadequately processed
11:28 or ineffectively processed, and the nightmares,
11:31 and the flashbacks, and the trigger ability
11:33 are the brain's attempt to bring that trauma
11:36 to the front so to speak
11:38 so that that person can successfully process it.
11:42 But there's something broken in the way
11:44 that it's being processed
11:45 and that's where therapy comes in
11:46 and that's what we try to correct in therapy.
11:49 Okay, so you've treated Eugene.
11:50 Have you treated others who have...
11:52 What are some of the things in your practice
11:56 that you've seen the issues
11:58 that have created posttraumatic stress?
12:00 Abuse is a big one for me.
12:02 I don't treat very many veterans,
12:06 but a lot of abuse, sexual abuse victims,
12:08 physical abuse victims and so, yes,
12:11 I have worked with many victims that are suffering
12:14 from one form of trauma or another.
12:16 So there are a few different therapies
12:18 that have actually been scientifically validated,
12:21 and it's very interesting how they work.
12:24 One of them, and this seems a little,
12:26 a little sketchy maybe to some people.
12:30 By the way, I'm against hypnosis.
12:31 I don't like hypnosis because in hypnosis
12:34 one person's mind is controlling
12:36 another person's mind.
12:37 And I don't think we should ever surrender our will
12:39 to another person.
12:41 There's a therapy that actually works
12:43 for posttraumatic stress,
12:44 that on the surface it looks like hypnosis
12:46 but it is really very different
12:48 because the person retains their free will.
12:50 And it's called Eye Movement Desensitization
12:52 and Reprocessing, EMDR.
12:55 And it was discovered by a woman
12:56 named Francine Shapiro,
12:58 who was thinking about a traumatic event
13:00 when she was in a park one day.
13:01 And she was looking across the horizon,
13:04 looking at the trees, and the birds,
13:06 and the lake and so forth.
13:07 And realized that as she moved her eyes in that fashion,
13:12 she didn't feel as traumatized by the memory of this trauma.
13:17 And so she put together a form of therapy
13:20 that moved the eyes back and forth
13:22 through the field of vision to what they call
13:24 bilateralize the brain,
13:26 activate both hemispheres of the brain.
13:28 And they're not sure why?
13:29 But they know that when the brain
13:31 is fully activated like that, it tends to process better.
13:34 And so what I do is, sometimes the clinicians
13:37 will use a light going back and forth
13:40 and that's where it starts looking like hypnosis.
13:41 I don't do that kind of thing. I just take people outside.
13:44 And I say, look at that beautiful tree
13:45 and look at the bird and let's talk about
13:47 what you went through in this context of nature.
13:50 I have a beautiful park near my house
13:52 and sometimes we take walks
13:53 and I try to get their eyes moving
13:55 while they're talking about the trauma
13:57 and that can sometimes help them
13:59 process it effectively.
14:01 That is fascinating. Isn't that fascinating?
14:02 Yeah, it's very interesting. Yes, it is.
14:04 Another way of dealing with trauma.
14:06 And I have a number of distance clients
14:08 where I meet with them on the phone or Skype.
14:11 So I can't take them for walks, at least I haven't tried yet.
14:15 It would be interesting,
14:16 but I do deep relaxation with them, deep breathing
14:20 and tensing and relaxing their muscles,
14:22 getting them in a very relaxed state,
14:24 praying with them and then in that context
14:26 of the trusting relationship with me
14:29 and their deeply relaxed state,
14:31 they review that traumatic material
14:33 and sometimes they can form a new association
14:36 between I'm relaxed, and I can remember this
14:39 while I'm relaxed rather than always being in a rouse state
14:43 when they're remembering that particular trauma.
14:45 So that's another thing that can sometimes work.
14:48 The most important thing that we can do though
14:50 and this is something anyone can do,
14:51 you don't have to have any special training,
14:53 be a good listener.
14:55 Because being able to share the trauma,
14:58 the difficulty that that person went through,
15:01 the pain that they endured
15:03 is a big part of them being able to let go.
15:06 If people can just talk to someone
15:09 about what they went through.
15:10 And if that person will exercise good listening skills,
15:14 reflecting back to them what they're hearing them say,
15:17 asking probing questions to draw them out.
15:20 A lot of times that's all a person needs
15:22 to be able to let go of that trauma
15:25 because we human beings are...
15:27 We love to hang on to history.
15:29 You know, we have this tremendous drive
15:30 to archive things
15:32 and to hang on to our personal history.
15:34 And sometimes, if we can share with another person
15:37 and maybe they even write it down
15:39 that gives us a sense of, we know where it is,
15:41 we can let go now.
15:43 So yeah. It's interesting.
15:44 But I think that we do hang on to things particularly,
15:47 it seems that a lot of people are prone to negative events
15:51 in their life have made a greater emotional impact
15:54 and memory is created
15:57 when there is an emotional impact.
15:59 So a lot people hang on to those
16:02 and they won't let them go to God though.
16:03 You bring up such a really good point
16:05 because there is a very fine line here.
16:08 We want to process these events
16:10 but we don't want to over process
16:12 and because the mind is negatively biased,
16:15 we tend to be problem focused,
16:17 we tend to be negatively biased as human beings.
16:20 We have to be proactive about focusing on the positive.
16:23 So what I find is that
16:25 people will fall into one of two ditches,
16:26 they'll lock up and they won't talk about the event
16:29 and they'll stuff it and then it will come out another way,
16:32 either through physical symptoms
16:33 or they'll start having anxiety or different, you know,
16:37 maladaptive behaviors so to speak
16:40 or people talk about it too much,
16:41 and they dwell upon it too much and they over process.
16:44 And like you said, they won't let go of it to God.
16:47 And they end up actually driving the thorns
16:49 more deeply into their flesh so to speak.
16:52 And how do you get someone who does, there are...
16:55 And I seem to run into quite a number of people
16:59 who rehearse their problems
17:02 again and again and again and you can get...
17:04 If they get focused in on the Word of God
17:07 and they're focusing on His promises,
17:09 for a while that will bring them out of that
17:11 but just let something trigger it and then they,
17:14 they just pushed right back down into that ditch
17:17 of rehearsing the past.
17:20 What do you do with someone like that?
17:22 Sent him to a professional counselor?
17:24 Well, yes, in a way or you can approach it
17:29 with a more structured approach yourself
17:31 because what happens with people
17:33 that are processing and that are kind of stuck
17:36 in negativity is a lot of times they become draining socially.
17:40 And so people will start avoiding them.
17:42 So what I like to do in situations like that
17:45 is try to structure the time
17:47 and I will be very honest with them.
17:49 This is a difficult thing to do,
17:51 but I will be very honest with them and say,
17:53 you're talking about this quite a lot.
17:56 And I want to be able to help you,
17:58 but I have limited time and limited energy.
18:01 So if we can keep it to one half hour today,
18:04 we'll talk about it and then can we for the rest of the day
18:07 not talk about it at all.
18:09 And then if you need to talk about it again,
18:11 we'll set up another appointment.
18:12 So I'll be very boundaried and very structured
18:16 in my listening but when I have a time with them,
18:19 they'll have me a 100%.
18:21 And I'll really try to focus, and try to draw them out
18:24 and get them to really talk about it.
18:25 So that may help in social situations
18:27 where a person is rehearsing something
18:29 is to be honest with them.
18:31 You know, you seem to need to talk about this
18:33 or want to talk about this a lot.
18:35 And I want to be able to help you,
18:37 but I have limited time and energy,
18:39 can we do it this way?
18:40 And try to like literally
18:42 set up an appointment with them.
18:43 That's very good. Yeah.
18:44 But what do you do when people,
18:46 if you take it a step further,
18:47 if this is an event that has happened.
18:50 Or a pattern of events that have happened,
18:52 say 20 years back
18:54 and they still continually rehearse those,
18:56 there's got to be a...
18:59 A point where they can let go.
19:00 And I know that I'm not the only one.
19:02 I'm sure, you know someone like that
19:03 and quite often as you said,
19:05 people begin to avoid these people.
19:07 There are people within churches
19:09 as I go and minister.
19:11 There's people that will come up and say,
19:12 well, don't get them started, you know, we kind of,
19:16 we have to look the other way when they're coming
19:18 because it's the same old story all the time
19:21 for the last ten years.
19:23 How can you reach someone like that,
19:25 if they won't go to a professional counselor,
19:27 is there a way?
19:29 Well, have you...
19:30 My first question would be have you encourage them
19:31 to see a professional and have you tried to get them
19:34 lined up with a professional?
19:36 Have you been willing to pay for the first two sessions?
19:38 Or help them research their insurance
19:41 and see what it will cover and what it won't?
19:43 So that they, because it could be,
19:45 and you don't really know this just having
19:48 sort of a random encounter with them.
19:49 Maybe they do need to process that more fully,
19:52 maybe they haven't processed it successfully yet
19:55 and maybe a professional will be able to help them
19:58 beyond that threshold.
19:59 So you don't know if they're just being negative
20:02 or if they're really damaged and they need help.
20:05 So to encourage them to see a professional
20:07 and then help facilitate that by offering,
20:10 you know, financial help.
20:11 I mean, we're all going to be broke
20:13 and exhausted by the end of this but, you know,
20:15 who are we if we claim to be following Jesus
20:17 and we're not willing to at least try
20:19 to help hurting people and stretch ourselves out.
20:22 I mean, can you imagine how many stories
20:23 he heard as he walked?
20:25 I mean, he walked everywhere he went.
20:27 And so he often had a walking partner.
20:30 I'm sure there were a lot of conversations
20:31 and there was a lot of processing going on,
20:34 even with the apostles, you know, as they,
20:35 and Paul and his partners,
20:37 I'm sure there was a lot of kind of
20:38 spontaneous counseling sessions.
20:40 I'm sure, you know there were.
20:42 Yes. I know how it goes.
20:44 But the one thing that
20:46 I'd like you to address for just a second
20:48 is if someone is going to seek a professional counselor,
20:52 can you give a guideline to the type of counselor,
20:56 because you can send someone to a secular counseling session
21:01 that they may end up in worse condition than they were.
21:05 Yes, it depends on the individual.
21:08 A lot of secular counselors
21:11 are now using cognitive behavioral therapy,
21:14 which is simply a means of controlling your thought life.
21:18 And it's scientifically validated
21:19 and it can be very helpful,
21:21 even if that person isn't 100% in line with you religiously,
21:24 they may be able to help but of course ideally
21:27 we're going to want someone who to really harmonizes
21:31 with a biblical worldview.
21:33 And so there are different resources available,
21:37 there are Christian websites,
21:39 where you can find a Christian counselor.
21:41 The American Christian Counselor Association
21:45 has a website.
21:47 Find a counselor link on that website.
21:49 The radio program New Life Live has a website,
21:53 and you can find a counselor on that website.
21:56 If you want a Seventh-day Adventist,
21:57 you happen to be a Seventh-day Adventist
21:58 and believe me, I know,
22:00 if you're a Seventh-day Adventist,
22:01 most of the time you're going to want an Adventist counselor
22:03 because there are certain things about Adventism
22:05 that you don't want to have to explain
22:07 and get your counselor to understand.
22:08 So it's good to have someone
22:10 that really understands you religiously.
22:12 You can go on the North American division
22:13 family life website
22:15 and they have a database of counselors.
22:19 So those are some just beginning points.
22:21 So the North American Division website...
22:24 The family life part of the North American division
22:27 of Seventh-day Adventists has a database of counselors.
22:30 I would recommend that in addition to those things,
22:33 you try to find, you try to find someone
22:37 who has had a good experience with a counselor.
22:39 You get a referral of a person that has a reputation
22:43 for helping people.
22:45 Okay, Jennifer you obviously,
22:47 I know, you know the science, you studied that
22:49 but you obviously also have a close relationship with Lord.
22:52 Tell us how much God makes a difference
22:56 when you are working with your clients?
22:59 I always pray in sessions, I pray at the end
23:02 because I feel like, then I know
23:03 what we need to pray about.
23:05 Some counselors like to pray in the beginning,
23:06 some clients like to pray both at the beginning and end,
23:09 I like to give them that option.
23:11 But I always pray with my clients.
23:12 I've had a few clients that are not even believers per se
23:16 and I just tell them upfront,
23:17 I believe that the success of this process
23:20 really ultimately depends upon God
23:22 and so if it's all right with you,
23:23 I will pray at the end of the session.
23:26 And so far nobody has objected.
23:28 So there's always prayer in sessions
23:30 and there's always, you know,
23:32 there's kind of a fine line we walk.
23:34 We want to use methods and we want to use tools,
23:38 I'm a big advocate of tools and I kind of feel like
23:41 when I work with a client,
23:43 I'm like a carpenter going into a situation
23:46 sizing up a repair that needs to be made
23:48 and then pulling out the right tools.
23:49 It's like I fit the modality to the client,
23:52 not the client to the modality.
23:54 I don't say, I already know what's wrong with you.
23:56 I don't even know you and I can tell you,
23:57 I need to put you through these paces.
23:59 I try to get to know the person so that I can apply the tools
24:02 that I know to their specific situations.
24:05 So I'm a big advocate of tools in counseling.
24:08 However I have to walk a fine line
24:09 because methods don't ultimately fix people.
24:12 The Holy Spirit coming into their lives
24:14 and transforming them is the source of power.
24:18 So do me a favor, we have about three minutes left.
24:22 Please speak to the mother, the father,
24:26 the husband or wife who is out there.
24:28 Who sees that their loved one has these particular symptoms
24:35 and the loved one may not be recognizing it.
24:37 What can, not the person
24:40 who's suffering from posttraumatic stress syndrome,
24:43 but what can a loved one do to get their relative
24:48 or their loved one on the right path?
24:49 Okay, Well,
24:52 it would help to be very honest in a loving gracious kind way.
24:58 I notice that you're having these symptoms
25:01 or I notice you acting this particular way
25:04 in these given circumstances.
25:07 And ask the person, have you ever thought that
25:09 maybe getting some professional help
25:12 would help you get through this.
25:14 And try to get them into a dialog about it.
25:17 Don't expect to convince them in the first conversation
25:20 but whatever you do, don't create a power struggle
25:22 where you're insisting on them going and that creates
25:25 an additional problem where they feel like,
25:27 they have to win the argument.
25:28 Open up a dialog with them and then do some legwork,
25:31 try to find a good clinician that you've heard good things
25:34 about that can work with them.
25:35 And you know something that I'm learning the more
25:37 I work with people who have suffered
25:42 sexual abuse or rape.
25:43 Often they are very reluctant to share that
25:47 and their families don't even realize
25:49 they're going through it.
25:51 So this is something that if you have a loved one
25:55 who you suddenly seen a change of behavior,
25:58 you know, you need to watch and see
26:01 what's causing that change of behavior.
26:03 Particularly, if you notice that
26:05 their anxiety is triggered by certain thing,
26:07 they're having anxiety attacks or perhaps
26:10 they, you know, they're having nightmares,
26:11 they've mentioned that on a consistent basis.
26:15 We need to have family systems
26:16 that aren't afraid to upset the applecart,
26:19 where kids can admit when something goes wrong
26:21 in their lives.
26:23 Don't traumatize them again by having a family system,
26:27 where you're not allowed to talk about negative things.
26:29 Create an openness in your family system.
26:31 Amen. Amen. Yeah.
26:33 So I just think that the most important thing
26:37 that we've learned today is that God can change people.
26:42 And we're going to be praying for Eugene.
26:44 That's somebody that, I'm glad that God turned him around
26:48 but as you said, he may be using him
26:50 as a missionary in the prison system.
26:52 Yeah, I think he will.
26:54 I know he will, I know he will.
26:57 Well, we're very sorry for his circumstances,
26:58 but we'll be praying for him.
26:59 Pray for him, please. You bet.
27:01 Thank you so much for...
27:02 It's been my pleasure. For being here.
27:03 We just love it when you're hearing,
27:05 you're going to come back and we're going to do
27:06 a couple more programs with Jennifer Jill.
27:10 Once again, if you are suffering yourself
27:15 from flashbacks, from nightmares
27:18 or these anxiety attacks, please seek out help.
27:22 Please talk to someone, even if it's just beginning
27:25 by talking with your loved one.
27:26 And if you have a loved one
27:28 who is suffering from these symptoms,
27:30 please be gentle with them and try to encourage them
27:33 to get the help they need.
27:35 Now our prayer for you is that
27:36 the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,
27:39 the love of the Father,
27:40 and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit
27:42 will be with you today and always.