Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Jim Burr
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000364
00:01 ¤ ¤
00:29 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn. Welcome to Issues and Answers.
00:33 And we're already having a good time here on the set. Today
00:37 we're going to be talking about Darwinism and DNA. You know, the
00:44 Bible says in Genesis 1:27 that God created man in his own image
00:50 in the image and likeness of God he created him, male and female
00:57 he created them. Is it true that we have a creator or as Darwin
01:03 theorized and surmised that there was just a warm pile of
01:07 goo and we came crawling out of it. We're going to be talking
01:11 again today with Jim Burr and Jim welcome back to 3ABN.
01:15 Thank you. Yeah this is going to be a
01:16 fascinating topic and I don't want to take any of your time
01:20 so let's just jump right into it.
01:22 These half hours go fast, don't they? They do. You know
01:26 something I really think I need to mention here.
01:27 It's interesting when you're looking at archeology and
01:33 you're looking at fossils that every new discovery gets
01:38 headlines. There was a discovery in 1999 and in National
01:41 Geographic, and I don't think this is going to go on the
01:44 camera so I'll show it to you. It may be on the camera. They
01:47 have discovered this fossil and now they said we finally have
01:51 the missing link between birds and dinosaurs, and it was
01:56 mentioned several times as the missing link, and we can now say
01:59 that birds are pterypods just as surely as we can say that humans
02:02 are mammals. There were 8-10 pages, beautiful color pages,
02:07 about feathers for T-Rex. This was in November of 1999. It was
02:12 later discovered this was a forgery. Somebody had gone in
02:15 and doctored up a fossil, put a tail and put different legs on
02:18 it to make it look like a bird. So in November this eight pages
02:23 came out. In April, here is the retraction saying we were fooled
02:27 it was not a fossil.
02:29 So eight pages compared to three tiny little paragraphs of a
02:32 retraction. Yeah, that's right. Now what's
02:33 interesting to me is the headlines they get. I mean,
02:38 every few months you see some new discovery that proves
02:42 evolution. Shelley, if let's say the University of San Diego made
02:46 a press release today and it said we have a new discovery.
02:51 We have proven that cigarettes cause lung cancer. How much
02:55 headline would you think they would get tomorrow?
02:57 They would not get any. Everybody knows that.
02:59 On every pack of cigarettes it says that. Everybody knows that
03:01 right. And yet many evolutionists would come
03:03 across saying we have an infinite amount, we have just
03:07 lots of fossils. We have all these fossils. You know, we
03:10 don't need any more fossils and yet every fossil that comes out
03:13 gets a big headline.
03:14 Because the evidence is so underwhelming.
03:17 Yes, exactly right, exactly right. Something I've been
03:21 really fascinated with and this is a model I made of the
03:24 bacterial flagellar motor. The little bacteria can swim. It has
03:28 all the ingredients of a motor. It has a starter like you have
03:33 in your blender. And it has an armature, it has bearings in
03:37 there and it has a universal joint. It has a propeller that
03:41 allows it to swim. It's kind of a whip-like thing. And actually
03:45 some of these can spin 100,000 times a second. You know the
03:49 closest thing we've got to that on planet earth is a dentist's
03:53 drill. And this is a bacteria?
03:55 This is bacteria and you can put four billion of them in a
03:58 thimble. And they can stop on a dime and reverse directions, you
04:02 see. And how did this all evolve Well Michael Behe has always
04:06 said that this is irreducibly complex. You need everything
04:10 to make it work. You take off the propeller it won't swim.
04:13 Everything on here you have to have. There was a trial in Dover
04:17 Pennsylvania and they brought in witnesses and they tried to
04:21 show that there was something similar to this that even though
04:25 it didn't spin it looked a little bit like this. So they
04:28 tried to challenge the claims of intelligent design and the judge
04:33 bought it and they threw it out the idea of intelligent design.
04:38 But anyhow as I know how time goes by so fast here I'm going
04:45 down here to the meat of the program. Jonathan Wells, the
04:50 doctor that wrote this book Darwinism and Intelligent Design
04:55 and he says Darwinian evolution will lose because of the
05:00 evidence. They've had 150 years and the evidence is
05:02 underwhelming. All these years they've had and intelligent
05:07 design has actually come out in recent time and is coming on
05:12 strong. Doctors and scientists are beginning to join in on that
05:17 They would tell you that in a warm little pond is where life
05:22 started, a little amoeba. It's like goo to you by way of the
05:26 zoo as somebody has said. You started as an amoeba, look at
05:30 you now. As we've said in previous
05:34 programs the thing that always amazes me is as much as they
05:37 studied a tiny little amoeba cell and how complicated it is.
05:41 You said last program, I believe it was, that they have proven
05:45 that it's more complicated, the single cell, than all of the
05:49 universe works. Yet, as much as they try to duplicate that,
05:54 study it or watch it to see if it will evolve or split or do
05:59 this, that and the other, they can't get it to do it. So it's
06:04 fascinating... You know we're going to get into
06:07 that, how you could evolve things upward, how mistakes in
06:11 the replication of DNA could add information, useful information.
06:16 Let's say that this book had enough information you could
06:19 make an amoeba, there's enough information there to make an
06:22 amoeba. But now you want to give him an eye; what do you need?
06:24 You need more volumes of information, right? And you can
06:28 never evolve this information upward. We're going to show that
06:33 when I get to the cake recipe. OK. But you know Romans 1:18
06:36 says that the invisible things of him from the creation of the
06:39 world are clearly seen. Those who don't accept a creator
06:44 it talks about the wrath of God but it says they will be without
06:49 excuse. People who want to believe evolution can find
06:52 people... I mean they have itching ears. They can tell them
06:54 what they want to hear, make them feel comfortable, OK it
06:56 sounds good. I'll buy that. I don't have to believe in a God.
07:00 But the Bible says that there's enough evidence, the invisible
07:02 things of him in the creation of the world are clearly seen so
07:05 they'll be without excuse, people who say there is no God.
07:08 It doesn't matter if it's an ant bed or a termite colony. I mean
07:13 there's an order in a termite colony. They've got a way to
07:17 protect their queen and to escape these things. There has
07:20 to be a creator behind all of this.
07:25 You know I have a microscope. It's not only the telescope but
07:28 the microscope. OK. I enjoy looking through the microscope.
07:31 I failed to mention that you design these type of instruments
07:35 and some of your instruments have been purchased by NASA.
07:40 So you've got some credibility here. The fascination once was
07:44 the universe; now you're getting where you're fascinated with the
07:48 cells aren't you. It just blows me away again.
07:50 But I'm going to show you some little creatures from a pond
07:54 water behind our house. They are called rotifers. They have a
07:57 clip now I think ready to roll. These little guys look like
08:01 Huey helicopters. They have dual blades. They're cilia, they're
08:04 not propellers but they look like it.
08:06 Are these the ones you said were tiny enough to swim inside my
08:10 hair? Yes, they can swim right up your
08:11 hair and if you've got fat hair they could probably do a U-turn
08:14 and swim back down. Now they're playing volleyball there with
08:17 that diatom, that radiosymetric diatom. These little propellers
08:20 are retractable. Did you see them on the right being
08:23 being retracted. There he goes. He's a server. He pulls this
08:26 back in. Now see him open them up. You can see the heart
08:29 beating on those too. These are not single cells. These are
08:33 actually maybe a thousand cells. You see him on the left over
08:35 there playing volleyball again, rotating that little thing.
08:38 You cannot see them with the human eye and yet they're small
08:42 enough to swim inside a human hair. I'm going to show you a
08:45 human hair. Coming up now you're going to see on the screen the
08:48 size of a human hair under the microscope in comparison. You'll
08:51 see these little guys are smaller than the human hair.
08:54 That's incredible. How would you classify a rotifer, what is it?
09:02 It's a small celled creature that lives in ponds. It can
09:06 travel on the wind. There's a hundred thousand varieties of
09:09 rotifers, a hundred thousand varieties. These are leech-type.
09:13 And they're like little motor boats. They have their tail
09:16 hooked to the slide and if they let that tail go you'll see
09:19 them take off and you can't keep up with them. In one of these
09:22 cuts you'll see it swim across. You'll see he's coming this way
09:26 you'll see him rotating as he goes. That's how they find their
09:30 food is by filtering water as they spin these cilia. Looks
09:34 like propellers. But I think they're going to show us the
09:38 human hair coming up and so you'll be able to see the size
09:41 of human hair. And we're going to have a couple of other
09:44 rotifers on there as well. The human hair will take up about a
09:48 third of that screen. Now they're under a piece of duck
09:52 weed, those six or so you see there. That's part of an arch
09:55 of a duck weed. Here's a little different type of rotifer.
09:58 You'll see him; he's retractable too. That pointer is part of the
10:02 microscope. And you see him drawing water to get his food.
10:05 Sometimes you can even see it spit out. There it retracted,
10:08 you see it retract and open up again.
10:11 That's amazing. This can't be seen with the naked eye.
10:15 No you can't see it. Now there's some sort of a little worm type.
10:18 There goes a rotifer across the screen and that's some little
10:20 worm-type creature there. I thought we had the human hair.
10:23 Maybe we don't. Now this is one of my favorites. They're Euglena
10:26 Look at how he can stretch that neck out. You'll see one from
10:30 the bottom. He can stretch clear across the screen. I see them
10:35 look like they're out fly fishing. Look at this one at the
10:39 bottom now. They call these Euglena.
10:43 And these are tiny little things that can actually fit inside a
10:47 human hair. Yes. A human hair normally, if
10:49 you've got fine hair, it's probably 1000th of an inch to
10:52 2000th of an inch. If you've got coarse hair it may be 500th of
10:55 an inch. A business card would be 500th to 1000th of an inch
10:58 so they'd be smaller than the thickness of a...
11:00 It never occurred to me that a little life form like that could
11:05 have a heartbeat. I didn't even think about that.
11:08 Yes, Yes. So would they have DNA?
11:12 Yes, Yes they have DNA. That's about the end of the clip there.
11:17 I think there were a couple of Euglena hugging each other here
11:23 somewhere. But anyhow, yes, they are smaller than a human hair.
11:29 So the DNA... Shelley, I've got a message for you. This is the
11:34 message. I think you'll like the message and I hope you can read
11:38 the message. Are you going to help me
11:40 decipher this? Is there a code here.
11:42 There's a code there. There's only one person on planet earth
11:46 that knows what the message is there, the Lord and me. OK. I
11:50 wrote it. Oh OK. I wrote the code. But it doesn't have any
11:55 meaning to you does it? None. It says God loves you. You knew
12:00 that but you couldn't read the code, right? What it is is a
12:05 modified Morse code. I took the Morse code and modified it and
12:08 so each letter ends with the next red and the next one starts
12:13 It starts from this side. So I assigned this a meaning saying
12:17 the white ones are the dot, the long dashes, and the blue ones
12:21 dits. So this would be dot, dot, dot, dit. This would be dot, dot
12:25 dah, dah. Dot, dot, dah, dit. So this would be God L, this is U,
12:30 this is L. God loves you. But you see, this is because we've
12:34 assigned meaning to this. It has no meaning unless you assign
12:38 meaning. So assigned meaning means we have to have two people
12:42 It has to be at least between two people or it has no meaning.
12:45 You see I can't communicate anything. We could tie knots on
12:49 a rope or add it on a floppy disk or whatever but we assign
12:52 meaning to something. In other words, you could sit a monkey
12:55 down at a typewriter and he just types gobbledy gook but every
12:58 once and a while you might see C- A-T or D-O-G. OK. The monkey
13:01 didn't know what that says but we have assigned a meaning to
13:06 that. So when we look at the DNA the DNA has all the information
13:12 that would reproduce Shelley Quinn.
13:14 All right, now let's explain this. Because the blue here
13:18 represents the DNA and you said that was like a book.
13:22 Yeah, this is like the rope part here you get from your mother.
13:26 Your mother reproduces one half of her DNA, one half her
13:31 chromosomes, you get 23 chromosomes from your mother,
13:36 23 from your father. So one strand comes from your father,
13:39 one comes from your mother and it makes up you.
13:42 And then the chromosomes are like the... That's what the
13:46 white here is representing and this would be like the chapters
13:49 in a book. Yeah, the strands here would be
13:52 like at book. These would be like the chapters.
13:54 The chromosomes would be like sentences, the genes, yeah the
13:59 genes are like sentences.
14:00 So we've got the DNA is like the book, the chromosomes are the
14:06 chapters and the genes are the sentences in the chapters.
14:09 And all of this has to come from two people to make up the code,
14:15 this is what you were showing me here. There's a code here that
14:22 has meaning and this... No two people have the same DNA. So
14:29 this is basically a recipe for Jim Burr or for Shelley Quinn
14:37 and it's unique, it's individual So it shows that there was a lot
14:44 of thought that went into creating each individual. But
14:49 now you said that there's 23 from each, is that correct? So
14:54 that's 46 chromosomes.
14:56 Well the chromosomes aren't shown really on here. These are
14:59 the building blocks of DNA. These are the exact designations
15:02 T, T, A, A, A, A, T, T, that they have assigned to the
15:06 proteins that make up the building blocks here. And then
15:10 we had G, G, C, C, G, G, and so forth. Probably ran out of
15:15 letters and then I had to use one to fill it out and so I put
15:19 in here J for junk DNA and scientists say there's junk DNA.
15:23 That came from evolution. That's junk DNA that was left over from
15:29 the evolutionary process and probably it's just DNA they
15:32 haven't figured out yet. The interesting thing is there's a
15:35 message here and it has take hundreds of thousands of
15:41 scientists' hours to be able to read the DNA. Francis Crick and
15:44 those guys finally figured it out. But the cells knew it from
15:48 the beginning. The cells could read this code. You see it's
15:50 like you didn't know what this code said. The cells in your
15:53 body said, ah-ha, I'm supposed to make a heart, I'm supposed
15:56 to make your lungs, I'm supposed to make your blue eyes.
15:58 You see all the things about you that spell you out are in the
16:04 genes that are in the DNA. There's something I want to ask
16:10 you because you hear that the... Let's see, we're 46 chromosomes,
16:14 that's 23 from each parent, and then we hear something about the
16:18 apes being 48. Yeah 48. So there's a big to do over that
16:23 we're two chromosomes away from an ape, but you shared something
16:27 with me that I thought was fascinating about tobacco and
16:31 the bat. Yes. You're only two chromosomes
16:33 away from being a bat or a tobacco plant. A fern is like
16:38 400 and some chromosomes. So you can't really base it...
16:41 If they say we're only two chromosomes away from being a
16:45 chimpanzee that really doesn't carry any weight. That's really
16:47 not how... So that's just one of those
16:49 evolutionary or the evolutionists ideas of hype
16:52 if you will. It sounds like a good argument.
16:56 Right? They say oh look at here. That's makes headlines, that
17:00 kind of stuff. But if we said we're only two
17:02 chromosomes away from a bat, nobody paid any attention.
17:05 That's right. So scientists have worked for decades to be able
17:09 to read this, but the cells could read it all the time the
17:16 way God designed it. So to illustrate this a little more
17:22 the process of evolution, I have a recipe here for cake. OK,
17:26 there's a cake recipe and you wouldn't have any problem making
17:30 a fruit cake. All right. That's all the ingredients for making
17:34 a fruit cake. This is a real fruit cake.
17:36 That's a real fruit cake, yes.
17:38 All right is it a spicy dark fruit cake or a light fruit cake
17:43 The thing is every time the DNA reproduces, replicates itself,
17:47 to illustrate, every time you make this cake you've got to
17:52 rewrite this recipe. You see every time you compare it with
17:55 DNA, every time it replicates itself, it rewrites the recipe.
17:59 Oh, OK. This is fairly simple. But let's
18:05 say you had big recipe. Let's say that you had to rewrite this
18:09 one a typewriter. Now your DNA in each cell is six feet long.
18:12 Wow. If you could unravel all the DNA
18:17 in all of your cells it would reach to the moon like back and
18:20 forth a million times. I forget the numbers, it's incredible.
18:24 But if you're going to sit at a typewriter and try to
18:26 reduplicate this, once in a while you'll make a mistake,
18:29 wouldn't you. There's quite a bit on here and you'd make a
18:32 mistake. Well that's how evolution says that we came to
18:34 to be. That's how amoeba got the eyeball or whatever was in the
18:38 process of evolution was by mistakes or mutations. In the
18:44 process of trying to copy this there is a mistake made, a
18:49 mutation. So that is how evolution says we got here.
18:53 Everything evolved, the survival of the fittest and natural
18:58 selection. Yet as we spoke about in a
19:00 previous program the Bible says that God created everything
19:04 after its kind and you've got cats and you've got dogs and
19:09 through all these 1000s of years we haven't seen a cat become a
19:14 dog or a dog become a cat and they cannot mate, their DNA just
19:19 doesn't mingle. Yes, so what's interesting is
19:22 that if you were going to type this out you'd make a mistake.
19:25 You know, suppose you had a mutation where you typed in the
19:28 wrong number. The one from your father, that would be from your
19:31 mother, the one from the father you have redundancy here.
19:35 It's duplicated so that if there's a hiccup over here it
19:39 can sense that there's a problem and it puts the right one in.
19:42 And it's only if your father and you mother both have missing
19:46 one or if you missed the replication of the code that you
19:49 have the problem. So it's redundant, it's overlapping,
19:52 it is so incredibly complex, the DNA. To think that this a recipe
19:57 for cloning you, recreating you. If you get burned in a fire, the
20:02 Lord can recreate you. All you need is the DNA, right?
20:06 Amen. Now suppose you're going to put frosting on this cake.
20:10 If you're typing this recipe out every time you rewrite it,
20:13 rewrite it you might make a mistake and say well we put in
20:16 a teaspoon instead of a tablespoon or something like
20:19 that, right. Is that going to get frosting on the cake?
20:21 What do you need if you're going to put frosting on the cake?
20:24 A different recipe, you need more information don't you?
20:27 So here's a recipe for frosting. OK. It not only tells you the
20:30 ingredients for frosting but it tells you how to cook it and you
20:34 know whatever the process is right? So you see that for this
20:37 amoeba to become a man you need more information and making a
20:42 mistake on the DNA can never add information. In fact, it goes
20:46 the other way. In evolution you actually lose information. Now
20:51 let me illustrate. Suppose we picked up a couple dogs off the
20:54 the street, a couple mutts off the street, OK. And they got
20:58 together and had pups, OK. And we looked at this big litter of
21:01 pups. You know, there's the runt of the litter over there, right.
21:04 He's a little smaller. He's kind of cute but he's kind of small
21:09 and there's one that's kind of gangly and he's bigger and kind
21:13 of a boss. Suppose you picked the two biggest ones and the
21:17 two smallest ones. I want to breed some little dogs, cute
21:20 little dogs. So you got the littlest ones together and then
21:22 you got the biggest ones together and from their litter
21:25 you took again and you went out and you picked the biggest two
21:29 and the smallest, the runt of the litter and you got them
21:31 together. What's going to happen and it doesn't take that long
21:34 You're going to end up with something that looks like a
21:37 Chihuahua and something that looks like a great Dane. You see
21:42 and it is so incredible to think that God put in these genes all
21:46 the elements for the diversity we see on the planet.
21:54 But the point is to that story though is that no matter how
21:58 many times you do this a dog is still a dog. He's not going to
22:03 become a bat. But eventually you get to the
22:05 point where you have this tiny little dog. You could never
22:07 breed a dog that would be the size of a mouse or the size of a
22:09 horse. OK. There's not information in the genes.
22:12 There's information here that will make some long-haired and
22:16 short-haired and some long legs. You see you could take a dog and
22:20 take him to Alaska and the ones that just don't have the genes
22:24 to make long hair, they're going to not survive very well. So
22:26 what's going to happen? The ones are going to reproduce are the
22:29 ones that have the longest hair. Or maybe you take them to Miami
22:32 where it's hot and they get heat stroke, the ones with all the
22:37 hair. You see natural selection works but you can never get to a
22:41 new species. That's exactly right. So eventually you've got
22:46 your Chihuahua and your great Danes and you might put them on
22:49 an island. Would they be able to reproduce? Well they might have
22:53 a problem reproducing just because of the size. I don't
22:56 know if the genes would be a problem, but eventually you get
22:58 to the place where your Chihuahuas, you highly breed
23:00 them enough they will never have the features of great Danes and
23:04 you'll never have the big bones in there. The genes have lost
23:08 information. You don't have information. Eventually the
23:12 huskies up there in the cold country, they keep breeding and
23:15 and breeding and breeding. Eventually there's no
23:17 information in the genes that's going to make short-haired ones
23:22 you see. So you see how you need information to put frosting on
23:26 that cake. And you can never get there. Evolution loses
23:30 information instead of adds information. Because evolution
23:33 says if you give enough time you kiss that frog he's going to
23:38 turn into a prince. That's another program. I clipped some
23:42 articles. I watched the newspaper for one year and
23:44 clipped all the articles because I used to do this all the time
23:47 in my program, invite little girls up to come kiss a frog and
23:50 see if we could turn him into a prince. And if we could turn him
23:53 into a prince we call that a fairy tale unless you put in
23:57 billions of years. Then we call it science, you know. And I
23:59 clipped articles for one year and for one year I just clipped
24:02 all the articles in the newspaper. The latest discovery
24:06 extends the human family tree billions of years. Like I got
24:10 about 10 articles or 12 articles out of the newspaper in one year
24:12 that I watched it, to show that we need more, billions and
24:16 billions and billions and billions of years to get
24:18 evolution to happen.
24:19 Then part of them are probably like the one that you just
24:24 featured from the magazine that they come back and much of it
24:28 has been fabricated or it's all theorized in other words.
24:32 Yeah. Search for extra- terrestrial. We might even have
24:35 time to get to that Shelley.
24:36 Now how are we going to tie that in.
24:39 Well because you know what? I mean they're looking for
24:45 extra-terrestrial life. They listen two billion frequencies
24:49 a day I think on each star they scan two billion frequencies.
24:52 They've looked at hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of stars
24:56 looking for information. This code-if you put this on a
24:59 modulated signal from a satellite dish, dit, dit, dah,
25:02 dah, dah, dit, dit, dit-that's SOS. What would they say?
25:05 Intelligent life, right? If you send the Morse code out
25:07 bits of information, sequential, they'd say there's intelligent
25:12 life in space. My point is if you took your DNA and
25:16 modulated a signal from Alpha Centauri, the closest star we
25:20 have, and beamed it towards this search for extra-terrestrial
25:23 program, headlines, world headlines tomorrow, you know
25:25 what it would say? We've discovered intelligent life in
25:28 space because this took intelligence. It took
25:31 intelligence to design it.
25:32 Oh I get what you're saying.
25:33 It took intelligence to read it. The cells can read it from the
25:35 very beginning the day God created Adam and Eve the cells
25:38 could look at this and say this means to make a heart, this
25:40 means to make a lung, this means make a fingernail, this means
25:43 make blue eyes. The information is here and the cells could read
25:46 it. And it's taken us how many thousands of years to be able
25:49 to read this code and they're finally starting now to read it.
25:52 I don't think they can read it all.
25:53 Many still won't acknowledge that this is intelligent design
25:59 And the intelligence behind it was God. That's your point.
26:05 That's good. And that would if we got this code coming from a
26:10 star and it was intercepted we would definitely be saying it
26:15 was intelligence on another planet. That's amazing.
26:21 There's a quotation from Steven J. Gould that I thought was
26:23 interesting. He said, man or woman, the crowning achievement
26:26 of some cosmic plan. What mortal could seek?
26:30 You see it's so conceited to think you're something special,
26:33 so conceited to think this earth is something special. You know,
26:36 we're noting. Steven J. Gould said what mortal conceit to
26:39 think that you're the crowning achievement of some cosmic plan.
26:43 He says you are a little accidental twick. You are a
26:47 little accidental twick. Is it any wonder in Japan 60,000
26:51 people jump in front of a train. Life has gone bad and you have
26:57 evolved and you're nothing more than an animal...
26:59 You know this is something that I wish we had further to go with
27:02 We're out of time now. But I want to thank you for coming
27:07 Jim. What a thought to end on. We want to say that there are
27:12 many places where young people have never heard. They've been
27:16 taught evolution but they've never been taught about God.
27:20 They do not know that they are special, they are unique, that
27:24 God created them. These people get involved in gangs and they
27:28 get involved in problems and then you teach them about God.
27:31 All of a sudden they've got a will to live, they want to live.
27:36 They want to know what God's plan is. You are unique. You're
27:40 not an accident. You're not here by some little cosmic design.
27:46 You're here by God's will and he loves you and he wants you to
27:51 love him as well. Thanks for joining us.