Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Jim Burr
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000362
00:02 ¤ ¤
00:28 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn and welcome again to
00:33 Issues and Answers. We're so glad that you've taken
00:36 the time to join us today and we are continuing today a very
00:40 fascinating topic about creationism, intelligent design
00:46 or evolution. The Bible says in Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God
00:51 created the heaven and the earth. Now believe it or not
00:53 there are some people who think that is a fairy tale and they
00:57 trust in science. They put all of their confidence in science
01:00 and it's a science that is changing and disproving itself
01:05 all the time. So we met with our special guest, Jim Burr, last
01:10 time and were talking about can science be really solid enough
01:15 to lay as our foundation of faith or should we look more to
01:20 the Bible. Jim, we're just glad that you have joined us again.
01:26 Well it's always a pleasure to be here. You know we still have
01:32 to respect science, discoveries in space and some of the things.
01:36 But when we look on the grander scale of the universe, there's
01:40 still so much we don't know and the cry is that we hear from
01:44 school boards we want science, we want science.
01:48 And through that cry, before we get there and explain this I
01:52 want to let people know just a little bit about who you are.
01:56 You are the president for Heavens Declare ministries and
01:59 you've been... It's interesting to me that you started off as a
02:09 business owner in the television business but then you
02:13 became interested in the astronomy as a hobby and then
02:18 you've actually designed, developed, manufactured
02:23 telescopes now that have been sold to NASA and you hold a
02:27 number of patents. So this has become your life focus,
02:31 has it not? Yeah, a tent maker I guess like
02:34 Paul. But I have a ministry. Yeah I have a new invention
02:38 the last few years which is a line of binocular telescopes
02:42 where you get a telescope for each eye. When you look down
02:47 into it, it looks behind you in the sky, JMI telescopes, and we
02:50 have a little one, the cheapest one is about $3000 then you go
02:53 up to a 10-inch where you get a 10-inch eyeball. You know
02:56 you're collecting the light like you get a 10-inch eye for each
03:00 eye. The you go to a 16-inch one and now at this point there is
03:03 nothing on planet earth that you could buy off the shelf that
03:07 would show you galaxies in deep space. It was very difficult to
03:11 do. Actually I've got two patents on that but I took six
03:16 motors to do it. It really was considered almost impossible
03:20 by people in the industry because these things are so
03:22 powerful how do you get the starters when you look at them
03:26 that there all together. I did it with six motors. One
03:30 telescope pivots this way and one pivots this way. So when
03:33 we build them we look out at a power line pole but you get a
03:37 pole in each eye, run the motor. OK they're lined up this way but
03:40 the cross bars are off. You bring the cross bars together.
03:42 so now with motors you've actually aligned both these
03:45 instruments so all the stars are right where they should be.
03:48 You know, you're not cross eyed. Then the motors are focusing in.
03:51 Each eye is spaced different so we have a lever switch so you
03:54 set if for your spacing and then focusing. Fascinating.
03:56 Then this year has been probably the busiest year of my life, I
03:59 think this year because I developed a new drive system
04:03 that's never been done before for the Light Ridge telescope
04:08 we have four models of that and I think plus five of the
04:13 products that go along with that Then we've been on the road.
04:15 We were in Russia in December. We went to ASI.
04:18 You do seminars, you go to churches.
04:21 They set us up for 25 programs at ASI for the kids. Yeah 25
04:24 programs and it was like three in the morning and three in the
04:28 afternoon and we've been traveling coast to coast doing
04:30 camp meetings and stuff like this. The Lord has given me good
04:32 energy and I say Lord who am I?
04:36 Amen. Just like David right. OK so when the people are crying
04:41 out for science and they don't want to hear the ideas of the
04:46 Bible, we were looking at some of the things that science keeps
04:51 disproving and/or contradicting itself. As you said we're not
04:56 trying to thumb our nose at science because we know that
04:59 there is some really good intelligence out there and it's
05:02 amazing how far science has come But we're saying as a foundation
05:06 for faith it's pretty shaky isn't it?
05:07 Well I think particularly in astronomy and cosmology there
05:12 is so much we don't know and I shared with you in the last
05:16 program. We talked about some of the claims. Here's one US News
05:23 Misuse of Outer Space. It says the universe is extremely
05:27 complicated and each item of information we get only shows us
05:30 how much we don't know. Another one; new things are coming out
05:34 every day. I think the chances that any one idea around today
05:39 is true are slim. Any idea. And yet we want science for our
05:43 children. Here's another one talking about dark energy or
05:47 vacuum energy. The universe is expanding. The galaxies are
05:51 stretching out, accelerating, and what is this giant sucking
05:55 sound? Well it's vacuum energy. Is that an oxymoron, vacuum
05:58 energy, sucking the galaxies out. Well it's dark energy.
06:01 There's two basic problems. When we look at the stars in our
06:05 Milky Way galaxy, in the center of the galaxy I've got pictures
06:08 where you see stars, they've plotted stars that are going
06:11 around the center 20 years, 30 years. They're orbiting the
06:14 center of the galaxy and we have 100 billion stars and the
06:17 stars in the arms are trying to catch up. You know they're
06:20 trying to go round. They're so big and they take 100 million
06:24 years for them to rotate but in the center they're just
06:26 screaming around. Well what is it? I mean, I don't know if
06:29 you've seen the pictures we showed of the sun on the screen.
06:32 The sun is like this and the earth is like this you know.
06:35 You could put a million in there So we see this sun holding all
06:40 planets. In fact Jupiter moves our sun a half a million miles.
06:43 When Jupiter goes around the sun it moves it half a million
06:47 miles. We have this humongous sun and all these little tiny
06:50 planets. When I look at the galaxy what is in the center of
06:54 the galaxy. What is it that holds 100 billion stars? Maybe
06:57 in another program we'll show you the picture of the sun. It's
07:01 just humongous compared to the other planets. So the sun holds
07:05 all the planets. Jupiter moves it half a million miles. What is
07:08 is in the center of the galaxy that could hold 100 billion
07:11 stars. They don't have an idea. There's a black hole. Come on
07:14 give me a break, a black hole. It's supposed to suck everything
07:16 in. Where does it go when it goes in. It's kind of
07:20 theoretical physics, I think the black holes are. We don't really
07:22 know for sure although there are some pictures that are coming
07:25 out that make you say maybe there's something to it. But
07:29 Christ holds all things together it says in Colossians, in him
07:33 all things are held together. It's a mystery. Why is it
07:37 expanding? What holds it together? You see. So they must
07:40 invent something to hold the stars in the center of the
07:44 galaxy. They call it dark, we can't see it, because it's dark.
07:47 It's got to be really massive so they call it matter. So dark
07:50 matter holds the center of the galaxy. Dark energy or vacuum
07:53 energy is what makes the galaxy, all the galaxies stretch out.
07:57 So essentially last time we discussed a number of these
08:00 types of things and we were actually showing some of how
08:04 science has disproved itself, the theories how on the Big
08:08 Bang theory there are six major questions that they're arguing.
08:12 They cannot prove. They have no idea. There's a lot of theory
08:16 out there. But also we were ending talking about forbidden
08:21 archeology and I kind of had to cut you off because we were
08:26 talking about the 900 pages you said of forbidden archeology but
08:30 we didn't get to make the point. So tell us a little bit about
08:34 that. Of course, what they're saying
08:35 is you know creation cannot be falsified, cannot be tested or
08:39 falsified. We're going to show how we can test the claims of
08:42 the Bible. But we can through this one volume, not written by
08:46 a Christian, Forbidden Archeology, 900 pages, we can
08:50 falsify evolution. When you say we can falsify it,
08:53 it's showing that it has... Claims that are wrong.
08:57 Claims that have been falsified.
09:00 But for example, pages and pages and pages taken from newspapers.
09:08 You know, here's a clipping from a newspaper in the 1700s
09:12 and the 1800s, a coal miner in Pennsylvania who discovered a
09:15 gold chain or they discovered a hammer. They see the imprint of
09:17 when they break a piece of coal apart. Another one I was reading
09:20 a lady was getting her coal in her stove and a chunk of coal
09:25 fell apart and here was a cup inside. Well how we can show
09:29 evolution is wrong is because evolution says this coal was
09:33 made 300 million years ago and evolution says but man didn't
09:39 melt brass until 3300 years BC. How did manmade items get into
09:44 this coal you see. So we can show that the claims of
09:47 evolution are false. They've shown the dinosaur prints in the
09:52 coal and we've seen through the strata of the earth that they
09:57 say each stratum is so many hundreds of thousands or
10:00 millions of years old and then they found a tree growing right
10:05 through all these strata, so that disproves that.
10:07 There's some work been done by Institute for Creation Research
10:11 on Mt. Saint Helens where Spirit Lake broke through and eroded
10:14 and they'll go through and they'll show you now this layer
10:18 looks like it's 50 million years old. Now this layer was put down
10:21 let's say June 13th and this was June 15th and this is... And
10:24 they show the different layers that happened in a couple weeks
10:27 and it looks like 50 million years. And then the Grand Canyon
10:30 that's another subject. You know from our previous program, one
10:32 more quotation I just thought was really cool here and this
10:35 was from Scientific America last 2007, last fall, and it says in
10:40 there that the Big Bang cannot answer six questions. It offers
10:45 no explanation apart from dumb luck, and that is not the first
10:49 time I've seen that. But you know we want to teach our kids
10:53 science. We had mentioned actually the website
11:00 dissent from Darwin last time. You now scientists and people
11:03 with degrees if they would like to sign on there I think it's a
11:07 simple statement. I have questions about Darwinism. I
11:12 don't believe in it. So it's dissent from Darwinism. Just
11:17 Google actually can find it.
11:19 It's dissent from Darwin, yeah not Darwinism. OK now let's go
11:22 on because we're already half way through this program just
11:25 recapping. So we need to get on.
11:26 OK. OK. Well what does the Bible have to say? The Bible says God
11:31 has made man from the dust. Dust thou art. We can test that can't
11:35 we? We can test that. We'll show that coming up here actually
11:39 about the percentage of the elements in the body but I
11:43 think I got ahead of myself. But let's just talk about some
11:46 claims of the Bible. Could intelligent design or creation
11:50 be more scientific than evolution? OK here we have
11:55 a claim in the Bible Genesis 1:22 says that all the animals
12:00 were created after their kind. And we don't see dogs and cats
12:06 making dats or whatever. I mean evolutions just happened
12:10 millions of times, millions and millions; it just can't help but
12:13 happen. You see it seems like it comes from a little warm pond
12:18 Take an egg from a cat and a sperm from a dog. That's all you
12:22 need for life. I mean there's the ingredients for life, right,
12:25 and yet it won't work. But Bible says after their kind. So we can
12:29 test that can't we?
12:30 You know what always amazed me because everything is brought
12:34 down to the single-cell amoeba and science cannot create a
12:38 single-cell amoeba but as long as they've been studying it
12:42 they've never seen a mutation of a single-cell amoeba. They've
12:45 never seen anything evolve from that. Yet they're trying to say
12:49 that these ingredients that are so intelligent in this cell that
12:54 that was an accident and then it just kept...
12:58 Yeah, we're going to get into that in one of these upcoming
13:00 programs too. The Bible says there was a flood. You can test
13:02 that. You can go to Mt. Everest, you can go to any mountain top
13:05 and you'll find shells from the ocean. I have this little fossil
13:08 fish here. Shelley, I really wanted to go down to the store
13:12 and buy a trout and put it on the sidewalk for three days and
13:15 take a picture every day to see if it turns into a fossil. You
13:19 see what happens because that thing is gone. In a few days the
13:23 bugs and the birds and it's going to be nothing but bones
13:28 in a few days. We have people run into deer, occasionally
13:33 we've had deer hit on the highway up in the mountains and in three
13:37 days the deer are gone. All that's left are a few bones.
13:39 They're gone. The birds come in and the coyotes come in and
13:42 then the mountain lion. One day I saw a mountain lion had taken
13:45 it down, the whole carcass down to the creek, you see. So how
13:48 do you get a fossil. So if like the Bible says the fountains
13:51 of the deep opened up and covered up these things, there's
13:55 a fish flat fossil fish. This supports what the Bible says
13:57 about the flood. And you can look at the side. Let me show
14:01 you the side. There are fish flattened out all throughout
14:04 this thing. You can look at any side and see all these little
14:06 marks. That's a fish and there's another fish, there's another
14:09 fish, there's another fish. They're all flattened out.
14:11 You see some people don't even understand because they haven't
14:15 studies the Bible. I've had people say you can't tell me
14:17 that just because it rained 40 days and 40 nights that that was
14:22 enough water to cover the earth. But what they miss is the
14:24 scripture a lot of people haven't heard that it wasn't
14:27 just the rains that God brought as the environment basically
14:31 melted on them, but he opened up all of the fountains of the deep
14:39 and the windows of heaven. So it was kind of coming at them
14:44 from both directions.
14:45 You know what's interesting to me is that they're looking for
14:48 water on Mars and they think there may be some water under
14:51 the soil. Scientists they'll all agree that Mars was once
14:55 flooded. How much water is on Mars today? Hardly any if they
14:59 they can find it. But we don't have enough water on earth for a
15:03 flood. How much of the earth is water? The earth is 70 percent
15:07 water but we don't have enough for a flood. But Mars was
15:09 flooded and it doesn't have any water.
15:11 Excellent point. OK. The Bible says the stars cannot
15:14 be counted, Jeremiah 33:22. He says innumerable like the sands
15:18 of the seashore. He compares the stars of heaven and scientists
15:21 today are quoting exactly what Jeremiah had said 3000 years ago
15:25 Although this is only just recently that they've begun to
15:28 quote that because before they thought at one point they had
15:32 counted them all and they kept upping the number and upping the
15:35 number to where it went from hundreds to thousands to tens
15:38 of thousands and it's to trillions of stars.
15:42 Yes. We think that in the known universe that there are 70
15:46 sextillion stars which is 70 with 20 zeros behind it.
15:49 I can't even think of the number
15:52 They're quoting basically what Jeremiah said 3000 years ago.
15:55 So we can test, we can see all these Bible claims stack up
15:59 against what scientists have discovered today. The Bible says
16:02 17 different places that he stretched out the heavens, he
16:04 spread them out like a tent, he stretched them out like a
16:08 curtain. Seventeen times the Bible says that and scientists
16:11 agree today, yeah we see the universe seems to be expanding
16:14 or stretching out just like the Bible says. So we can test many
16:17 of these claims. The Bible says he hangs the earth on nothing.
16:21 Some religions taught that the earth was on the back of
16:23 turtles and elephants and Atlas, Hercules or whatever. The Bible
16:28 says he hangs the earth on nothing. I should be giving you
16:31 these scriptures because someone may want to look this up. That's
16:34 in Job 26 verse 7 and Jeremiah 23:22 says the stars are like
16:39 sands of the seashore innumerable and the Bible says
16:42 that the earth is a circle it's not flat. He sitteth over the
16:45 circle of the earth. That's in Isaiah 40 verse 22. Again, all
16:49 of these things the Bible claims...
16:51 And the point that we're making here is that the Bible claimed
16:55 this way before popular science could catch up with it so
17:00 science is now proving the Bible as science becomes more
17:05 accurate. In Psalm 102 verse 26 it says
17:07 that the earth is waxing old like a garment. That's repeated
17:10 in Hebrews 1 verse 11. The earth is getting old like a garment.
17:13 Well we see that don't we. We see the depletion of the
17:18 magnetic field of the earth. If you play that back that's very
17:22 interesting because back millions of years ago the
17:25 magnetic field would have been so strong life couldn't have
17:28 existed here anyway. And they say well it reverses ever so
17:31 often; the north pole becomes south pole. This is what the
17:34 scientists would say that it reverses. By looking at the
17:36 rocks they think that they can see the magnetic field is
17:39 changing in the rocks and the lava and so forth. But my
17:42 question is what happens to all the migratory birds that travel
17:47 from here to Alaska to Hawaii for 5000 miles based on magnetic
17:51 field. What would happen to all of these creatures if the earth
17:55 switched on them. They would all be going north when they should
17:59 be going south. You know they put birds in a cage and they put
18:03 ink on them to see how it was affected when they changed the
18:07 magnetic field around them and they discovered that somehow
18:10 they're able to detect the magnetic field of the earth.
18:13 So the earth is getting old. The magnetic field is wearing
18:17 down. The ozone is depleting; we hear about that. If it's just
18:21 off a little bit who tuned it if it's so finely tuned, who tuned
18:25 it? We have erosion. We have the earth slowing down. We reset our
18:28 watches don't we. Every year we have to adjust a few micro
18:31 seconds. There's many things. Oh there's another statement
18:35 from scripture that tells us that the Bible is right on the
18:39 money. The Bible says one star differs from another star in
18:43 glory. I Corinthians 15:41 says there's one glory of the sun,
18:47 another glory of the moon and one star differs from another
18:50 star in glory. We now know there are not two stars in the
18:53 universe alike. Every star has its own like a fingerprint, its
18:56 own spectral light. There's a myriad of colors, color
19:00 variation. It has to do with the temperature of the stars and the
19:02 elements present there. But yet every star is different just
19:05 like every person is different. There's not another Shelley
19:07 Quinn in the universe.
19:09 To which some may say thank goodness. But the point is that
19:13 at the time that this was written they didn't have these
19:17 magnificent telescopes to know this. I mean, people looked up
19:20 at the stars and thought they pretty much all looked alike.
19:24 So this had to be by divine inspiration as in Job 28 that I
19:28 read last time where Job says where is the way of light and
19:32 that had to be divine inspiration because light moves
19:36 at 186,000 miles per second and it could only be a way not a
19:43 a place. So as, I don't want to say uneducated, as undeveloped
19:49 as science was back the Bible was light years ahead of what
19:55 the scientists knew then and what some know now.
20:00 Exactly right. You know, the second law of thermodynamics,
20:05 if we look at Romans 8:22 where it says the creation itself will
20:08 be set free from the bondage of decay. That goes along with the
20:11 second law of thermodynamics. Everything in the universe is
20:14 running down. Everything is tending toward disorder. You
20:15 know, check your garage if you don't believe it right. You
20:18 make it all nice and then what happens next month, right.
20:22 everything is running down and declining and tending toward
20:24 disorder. As the Bible says the creation itself will be set
20:27 free from the bondage to decay. And that goes right along with
20:30 the second law of thermodynamics So you see when you say it can't
20:33 be tested, yes, there are many things we can test about the
20:36 Bible. And show me; we can falsify things about evolution.
20:41 I mean they are out to present you know fossils that have been
20:45 doctored. I was just reading in National Geographic now they
20:48 think they had this fossil of a dinosaur where they think they
20:51 put the legs from a chicken and the tail feathers from a chicken
20:55 different types of particles on this fossil to make it look like
21:00 it was an intermediate between dinosaurs and birds.
21:03 I forget which one I read; it was about one of the latest
21:07 discoveries of a man that the design of it shows him all
21:11 hunched over like and all they found was two little tiny bones
21:15 so this was all an artist's conception and for most isn't it
21:18 It's amazing. So, oh boy, these programs go
21:23 right by don't they? Ten million cells are destroyed every second
21:27 in your body. Ten million cells are replicated every second.
21:31 So the regeneration... There's 10 million cells dying and 10
21:35 million cells replicating or regenerating. That is amazing to
21:40 think of. When you think of those cells
21:41 the more you realize how complex these cells are the more
21:44 you realize the importance of what you put in to nourish them.
21:46 Give them good stuff you know.
21:48 We are fearfully and wonderfully made.
21:54 Yes. Psalm 139:1 Fearfully and wonderfully made. It says there
21:57 that we're knit together. You know scientists used that very
22:00 word to describe DNA replication. That we're knit
22:04 together like it says in Psalm 139. We're knit together. O Lord
22:07 thou has searched me and know me. Thou knowest my downsitting,
22:11 my uprising, thou understandest my thoughts afar off. Thou
22:15 compasseth my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all
22:18 my ways. So we are going to come back on
22:23 another program and talk about
22:24 DNA, aren't we, because this is this fascinating model that's
22:27 been sitting here. I'm going to give you a cake
22:29 recipe and we're going to have you compare a cake recipe to the
22:32 replication of DNA.
22:33 All right, I'll look forward to that.
22:37 Um, the first law of thermodynamics goes
22:40 along with creation. The first law of thermodynamics says you
22:44 matter can never be created or destroyed. You can't create
22:48 matter or destroy it. You can change it. When you light a
22:52 match. OK, I see where you're going.
22:54 Yes. You've converted it to heat and
22:55 light and smoke, right. And yet if you look at Einstein's theory
23:03 of relativity it's the equivalent mass, matter and
23:06 energy. This is matter, OK. And you see the Bible says by the
23:12 word of the Lord were the heavens made. Jesus said all
23:15 power is given to me. You see power is energy isn't it? Yes.
23:19 The power of God could be energy so that energy could call this
23:23 mass into existence. We could go to Hiroshima and we took the
23:27 mass of a slice of bread and created a bomb that blew away
23:31 100,000 people. I think that was creation in reverse. There is so
23:36 much incredible energy in the atom. If you took a hydrogen
23:40 atom and burned it like with a match, a chemical reaction, you
23:44 could get one volt from it. If you nuke one hydrogen atom you
23:48 could get a trillion volts. The difference between a chemical
23:52 reaction and a nuclear reaction is a trillion times, you see.
23:56 And so the power of God, I think when we split the atom we are
24:00 reversing creation because I think God... When he created the
24:05 universe, he didn't lift a finger.
24:07 That's an excellent point.
24:08 By the breath of his mouth, you see, by the breath of his mouth
24:12 he could call the universe into existence. That goes along with
24:15 the theory of relativity, the equivalence of mass and energy.
24:18 Splitting the atom, we release the energy God put there when he
24:22 created. His word is alive and active for
24:25 certain. Another claim of the Bible,
24:28 Genesis 2:1, Thus the heavens and the earth were finished.
24:30 That goes along with again the first law of thermodynamics
24:32 which says there is no more mass we can't create energy or mass,
24:38 and neither create nor destroy. It's always changed. So when the
24:42 Bible says thus the heavens were finished, that's something again
24:47 scientists would agree with. The Lord formed man out of the dust
24:51 of the ground. You know the Bible says that man came from
24:55 the dust of the ground. We could look at the elements.
24:59 What is it? Dust thou art and to dust shalt thou return.
25:03 And we can look at the elements. What elements do we see in the
25:07 human body? All the elements we see in the crust of the earth,
25:10 not in the core of the earth but in the crust of the earth.
25:14 Oxygen 65 percent in the human body. Carbon 18, hydrogen 10
25:18 percent, 3 percent nitrogen and so forth. You see that goes
25:22 along again, you see how they say we can't test creation.
25:27 So over and over again we can test the creation theory and we
25:33 can test what the Bible says. The Book of Daniel, that's one
25:39 of those books to me that proves... I'm kind of like
25:43 Sir Isaac Newton, that was the book for me that nailed it as
25:46 far as knowing that every word of God was absolutely divinely
25:53 inspired. But our bottom line is that we believe, you and I, in a
25:58 creator God and you are proving and showing that the Bible can
26:04 be proven, it can be tested. Not just theoretical but the
26:08 statements of the Bible are proving to have been thousands
26:13 of years ahead of what the knowledge of the day was, even
26:17 beyond our knowledge today, if you will. And we're not putting
26:22 science down as far as saying, I mean, it's a wonderful field,
26:26 there's some wonderful knowledge and the Lord has certainly
26:30 blessed but what we're saying is bottom line you can't put your
26:35 faith in scientific theories because they change so rapidly.
26:39 Exactly right and also we know that there's some deception
26:43 going on. You see we know particularly in the fossil
26:47 record. Harold Cook was in Nebraska in, I guess, a gravel
26:51 pit, found a tooth. It became the Nebraska man,
26:55 hesperopithecus, herald cookii and it was a pig's tooth and
26:59 the artist created a whole race of ape men living in Nebraska a
27:04 million years ago. I mean we have the Java man, Eugene
27:08 Dubois. We have so many of these attempts to falsify fossils and
27:13 so forth. Our time is getting low isn't it Shelley.
27:15 Our time is up. This is so fascinating. You've got a lot of
27:18 facts in you. It's just fun to sit and talk to you. Thank you,
27:22 Jim, for joining us today and I believe that you've stirred some
27:26 people's faith out there. So for those of you at home, we talked
27:30 about so many facts so rapidly, if you want to get a copy of
27:33 this program you can always call 3ABN during regular business
27:37 hours or go online and order a copy of this program. But these
27:42 are things that we need to be able to answer, why we have the
27:46 faith and trust that we have in the Bible. So I hope you'll
27:50 study up on this. Thanks so much for joining us.
27:53 We'll see you next time.