Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Martin Weber
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000324
00:30 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn,
00:32 and welcome again to issues and answers.
00:33 We are so glad that you could join us today
00:36 and I think that you are going to find this a fascinating topic
00:39 because our issue today is going to be
00:42 God's plan of salvation for your children
00:45 and how this plan is perfectly depicted in the sanctuary.
00:49 Let me read you one of my favorite scriptures
00:52 and this is a Bible promise that you can hold on to it.
00:55 It comes from Hebrews 4:16
00:59 and the Bible says, "Let us come boldly to the throne of grace,
01:05 that we may receive mercy and find grace
01:08 to help in good time for every need."
01:12 You know, Hebrew 7:25 says that
01:15 Jesus is living to make intercession for us
01:18 and God is inviting us as His children
01:21 to come before Him to talk with Him,
01:24 to let Him talk with us
01:26 and to know that He is a God who knows us intimately
01:31 and He wants to be involved in every detail,
01:35 intimate detail of our lives.
01:38 Well, please help me welcome our special guest
01:41 and that is Martin Weber
01:42 and Martin we are so glad that you have come back again.
01:45 Oh, thanks.
01:46 You know, you have been here several times before
01:48 and we've had some good discussions
01:51 about how to keep kids in the church.
01:54 And today we are going to be talking
01:56 about a very fascinating topic to me,
01:59 and that's heaven's plan to save your kids
02:01 as seen through the sanctuary.
02:03 Now you are, for those who have not seen you before,
02:08 you are the Communications Director
02:10 for Mid-America Region of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
02:13 You are the editor for the Outlet Magazine,
02:16 Just finished your doctorial studies
02:18 and everything that we've been discussing has come from,
02:22 as you worked in the doctorate in divinity, is that what it is?
02:28 I mean doctor of ministry. Yeah.
02:30 Doctor of Ministry.
02:31 So you have done all of this research
02:36 and found some fascinating things.
02:38 So let's talk about why the Sanctuary
02:43 and this pre-advent judgment is actually something
02:47 that if your children understand,
02:49 it will help keep them in the church.
02:51 Yes, yes.
02:52 The Bible talks in a New Testament
02:54 about the same Old and New Testament
02:56 about the sanctuary.
02:58 The word "sanctuary" means refuge,
03:01 just like during the old slave days
03:03 the nation of Canada was for escaping slaves,
03:06 a sanctuary, a place of refuge.
03:08 They were going north through the underground railroads,
03:11 you know, and find refuge there.
03:14 And Jesus today is working harder for us
03:18 than He did when He was here on this earth.
03:21 Because here on this earth He had to take time out of sleep
03:24 and do the things we all need to do or we like to expect.
03:27 In the sanctuary, the Bible says right now here,
03:30 right now He ever lives,
03:32 always lives to make intercession for us 24x7.
03:36 Amen. And that's so exciting.
03:38 Sometimes people will say, "Oh, I need a prayer partner."
03:41 And a lot of times people, because I am on television,
03:43 you know, they will call in or write
03:45 and say will you be my prayer partner?
03:47 And I can't obviously.
03:49 So I'll tell them if you can't find any prayer partner,
03:52 just know that there is one in heaven
03:54 who is interceding with you.
03:55 I mean He's praying with you right now
03:57 and Jesus is your prayer partner.
03:58 Yeah, and He is interceding.
04:01 It's another word for it, He is our advocate.
04:04 Absolutely. Advocate.
04:05 And He is not trying to get God the Father to like us
04:09 or want us to be saved like He wants us to be saved
04:14 or rather the two of them are working together
04:16 against our common adversary, which is the enemy, the devil.
04:21 Now let me make sure everyone understood what you just said.
04:24 God loves us unconditionally,
04:26 and Jesus isn't trying to convince the Father to love us
04:29 because He's loved us with an everlasting love,
04:32 therefore He draws us with love and kindness,
04:35 but rather the two of them are working together
04:38 against our adversary Satan who is the accuser of brethren.
04:42 He is the accuser of the brethren.
04:44 The word adversary or accuser is right there in the name, Satan.
04:48 It's very dramatic throughout scripture
04:50 particularly in the Book of Revelation, Chapter 12
04:52 where it talks about the devil,
04:55 Satan, accusing us before the Father
04:58 and day and night as being unworthy.
05:01 You cast me out of heaven,
05:03 how dare you bring them up there
05:05 when they do some of the same things I tempt them to do.
05:07 Yes, yes.
05:09 So now when you were studying this,
05:12 how do you think that the pre-advent judgment
05:17 shows God's willingness to dialogue with us?
05:21 Yeah. Dialogue as we talked about is a major factor
05:27 in avoiding attrition instead of because I said so.
05:32 So we are talking about attrition
05:33 and children leaving the church
05:35 and if a parent will actually communicate
05:39 and dialogue and let the child speak back
05:41 and be open instead of just,
05:45 you are going to do because I said so.
05:48 Some Christians have a view of God that's very arbitrary.
05:52 You know, He even determines arbitrarily apparently
05:55 before people are born,
05:56 whether they are going to be saved or lost.
05:58 It's a very Calvinistic view.
05:59 Yeah, yeah,
06:00 and of course a lot of people
06:02 duly love the Lord and believe that,
06:03 but the view of God if we as parents
06:09 whether we are clergy
06:10 or otherwise have that way towards our kids
06:12 because I said so, you know, arbitrarily,
06:16 extrinsic rather than engaging
06:20 and God says, "Come now, let us reason together."
06:26 There are couple of things
06:28 about the Old Testament sanctuary
06:31 that are so beautifully reflected
06:34 to the New Testament ministry of Christ.
06:36 May I share it?
06:37 Please. Please, do.
06:40 In the Hebrew legal system
06:42 there were no advocates normally.
06:47 If you witness the crime,
06:48 if you saw me at WalMart stealing something,
06:54 back in Old Testament times you understand--
06:55 Right, with the WalMart ahead off the cyanide.
06:59 Yeah, off the cyanide, yeah, right there.
07:02 If you saw me taking something
07:04 that was yours specific duty to prosecute,
07:07 to bring me before the judge
07:08 and say I saw Martin doing such as such, you know.
07:12 And so there are words before the judge.
07:14 Now there was no defender for me,
07:16 because the judge was required by Hebrew law to take my side.
07:22 The Judge was your advocate.
07:23 Yes. He was your defender.
07:24 Yes. Right.
07:25 Now here in our western legal system,
07:27 which we get through the Romans, the Judge has to be neutral.
07:33 If there's a biased one way or the other,
07:35 the judge must recuse himself and step back.
07:40 But back in Hebrew times,
07:41 no, the judge was biased and prejudiced in favor of--
07:46 Hallelujah. Yeah.
07:48 Isn't that exciting?
07:49 Yeah, in favor of the defender.
07:50 Now of course the judge had to be fair.
07:53 So if you could, you know, show a video
07:55 from your cell phone of me taking that
07:59 whatever I was taking from WalMart you know,
08:01 if you are the evidence
08:02 the judge had to reluctantly abandon his defense of me
08:07 and see to it that a just justice would be executed.
08:11 But, that was not the predisposition.
08:13 The predisposition was vindication.
08:16 And what so exciting about that is
08:18 because Christ is called our advocate.
08:20 He is also called our judge.
08:21 So he is the Father and the son are actually on our side
08:27 and if this evidence that's presented to them
08:33 is found to be true
08:35 and if refutably true
08:37 and we are not seeking refuge in Christ
08:40 then there will be a penalty. Yeah, absolutely.
08:44 The penalty of sin is death.
08:47 Yeah, it wasn't an inconsequence thing
08:50 that Jesus died.
08:52 He didn't die in vain.
08:53 He died for a purpose for us to find a refuge.
08:55 Now here is what I really get excited
08:59 because although they were not advocates
09:01 or defense attorneys normally,
09:04 and three situations in Old Testament times
09:06 in Hebrew legal system
09:08 and three situations there were advocates.
09:12 And this is from the Jewish encyclopedia.
09:14 Number one, if the accused was the spouse of,
09:21 if you were the husband of the accused and more as charges,
09:26 then the husband was a court appointed advocate
09:29 to represent the wife.
09:32 Christ and His pride.
09:33 There you go. I love it.
09:35 Yeah, Christ stands up for His pride which is being accused.
09:39 So number one, number two is,
09:43 if there was a minor child,
09:48 a girl under 13 and a boy under 12,
09:50 in the Hebrew legal system
09:52 a child was given a court appointed advocate.
09:57 Praise God.
09:58 And so we are children.
10:00 We are children of God.
10:01 So we have an advocate appointed by the judge to represent Him
10:07 and to represent us before Him against Satan
10:11 who is accusing in helping.
10:14 The judge vindicated.
10:17 And the third, now this not very flattering of human nature,
10:20 but when I hear to be flattered.
10:22 If there was an insane person,
10:26 if there was insane person
10:28 that obviously couldn't defend himself or herself
10:32 the judge was required by lateral point
10:35 and advocate to represent this insane person.
10:38 Now of course, the Bible, says that the whole head is sick.
10:42 The whole heart is faint.
10:44 Sin is insane.
10:46 You know, it's insane to treat the people
10:48 we love the most the worst, that's insane.
10:52 It's insane to do the stuff
10:55 we are tempted to do too often indeed.
10:57 Dude, in our weakonomics that's insane.
11:01 It's insane not love the Lord
11:02 with all our hearts and soul and mind.
11:05 It's insane, it's insane,
11:06 whatever that you yield towards temptation, we are in the flush.
11:10 We are insane. Oh, that's true.
11:12 And God is sort of condemning us,
11:15 He pity's us by giving us a quarter pointed advocate,
11:18 who stands up for us in the sanctuary
11:21 with Him and represents us.
11:26 So they are right there in the Jewish encyclopedia
11:28 from the Hebrew legal system in the Old Testament,
11:31 we have these glorious New Testament Gospel principles
11:35 of father and son working together
11:39 for our vindication against the enemy
11:42 who is accusing us like he accused Job.
11:45 And you know when you think about this,
11:49 I use this illustration
11:51 that what Satan's favorite snares
11:55 is he takes us to his baton of self-condemnation
11:59 and he is passing it off to us.
12:01 And so what we do is not realizing
12:06 that we have an advocate
12:07 who is standing before the judge and they both on our side,
12:10 we will take that baton
12:13 and we will just bang it on ourselves over the head.
12:15 There is self-condemnation,
12:16 whereas the Bible says in Romans 8:1,
12:18 "If you are in Christ,
12:20 therefore there is no condemnation
12:22 for those who are in Christ Jesus."
12:25 Later in that chapter which is of course
12:27 one of Christianity's favorite chapters,
12:29 Romans 8, later on it talks,
12:30 it bring us into the Sanctuary on this very matter
12:34 that you are talking about condemnation,
12:36 who is he that would dare condemn us,
12:38 God is the one who justifies.
12:41 And Jesus is the one who intercedes for us.
12:46 So right there in Romans chapter 8,
12:50 whatever we are feeling condemned about,
12:53 God says you may feel that way,
12:55 but it's not reality in Christ,
12:58 if you have come apart from the world
13:02 and its foolishness and you've turned around
13:05 and you've repented and you've come to me through Jesus.
13:09 And the throne of grace that Hebrew chapter 4 talks about
13:13 that you read about is actually of course
13:15 in the Old Testament like the mercy seat.
13:17 Right, Amen.
13:19 And, yes, the law is there.
13:21 God is a just God.
13:23 But the slab of Gold,
13:25 there is mercy with the angels looking over the mercy seat
13:31 that's how we relay with God through his mercy.
13:36 None of us is good enough to relay to Him
13:40 on the basis of how well we are keeping the law.
13:43 You know, in Lamentations 3:22-23,
13:46 I believe, where it says that,
13:49 "His mercies are new every morning,
13:51 His compassions fail not,"
13:53 and we think about this and that is God wants to forgive us
13:59 if we would just turn 1 John 1:9,
14:03 says that he is faithful and just if we will confess our sin
14:08 he will not only forgive us our sin,
14:10 but cleans us of all our righteousness.
14:14 And, you know, when you said earlier
14:15 that some people believe that there is a predisposition
14:19 that you are predestined either,
14:22 you know, you saved your knot distance,
14:26 the Bible says that God wants all men to repent into the same.
14:30 That's His heart.
14:31 The only predestination is that
14:34 I can really say for sure is Romans 8:29 that
14:38 "Those who He foreknew that would come to Christ,"
14:41 based on what Romans 8:28 says that we are in Christ,
14:44 He predestined us to be conformed
14:46 to the image of His Son.
14:48 So that's our destiny.
14:49 That's our pre-destiny, is to be conformed to His image.
14:53 God has put us in Christ, without our request,
14:56 without our permission before we even existed physically
15:00 God put us in Christ.
15:03 When Jesus died, we died.
15:05 When He rose. We rose.
15:08 And when He was as a high priest installed
15:13 as in this ministry in the sanctuary that was for us.
15:16 And so now, we have a choice to make
15:19 He is called the second Adam.
15:21 The first Adam wrecked at the tree in the Garden of Eden.
15:25 And that's not fair.
15:26 Somebody says it is not fair for what Adam did.
15:28 Because of what Adam did,
15:29 you know, there is death there.
15:30 It's true it's not fair.
15:31 That's why God gave us a second Adam, Jesus Christ.
15:34 So now we have a choice to make.
15:36 We can identify ourselves with either fall in Adam
15:40 and his follies by doing what comes naturally doing
15:43 what we feel like doing,
15:45 doing what the world tells us to do,
15:48 or we can identify with the second Adam Jesus Christ
15:52 and find a whole new history in what He did
15:57 and His perfect works become our history.
16:00 Now, you confused me just a little bit
16:02 because there is a choice for us to be in Christ
16:05 when 1 Corinthians 1:13 says,
16:07 it's because of God that we are in Christ,
16:09 but we agreed that the choice says
16:11 we have to born again to be in him.
16:14 Okay. I just want a clarify that one point.
16:16 Yeah, to get a little deeper,
16:17 164 times in the New Testament there is a Christ motif
16:24 and God has created a whole new humanity in Christ.
16:30 We are new creations in Christ Jesus.
16:32 The old has gone and the new has come.
16:33 That's right. And historically, 2000 years ago,
16:36 there was a whole new human race
16:39 created through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
16:43 called the Church,
16:44 and Jesus briefed his spirit upon this whole new humanity
16:48 and when we repent
16:50 and come to Christ we are included in this new humanity,
16:56 we are included in Christ. Amen.
16:58 And so in a sense
17:01 we were in the Garden of Eden when he send,
17:06 Adam send the first Adam and in a very real sense
17:09 we were also in Christ
17:12 when he died on the Cross and rose again.
17:14 And now we have our choice to make.
17:17 Do I wish to be an Adam?
17:18 Do I wish to be in Christ?
17:20 And by that identification
17:21 that's our eternal salvation or loss.
17:24 And, you know, there is Revelation 12:11 says that,
17:28 "We overcome by the blood of the Lamb
17:30 and the word of our Testament,"
17:32 and that's something that I think its so important
17:35 we were discussing this before the program
17:37 knowing your identity in Christ
17:39 and confessing who you are in Christ
17:43 because if the Bible tells us in Romans 10:17,
17:49 it says, faith comes by hearing
17:51 and hearing by the word of Christ.
17:53 And I think it's Romans 10:10 that talks about,
17:55 it's with your heart that you believe
17:57 but with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
18:01 So this is something that's our part of thing
18:03 that's our sanctuary when you talk about
18:05 overcoming the blood of Lamb and the word of our Testament.
18:09 And the context there is
18:10 specifically overcoming the accusations of Satan. Amen.
18:14 He is accusing us and God has to be fair just like with,
18:18 you caught me at WalMart back there at Satan right.
18:21 And so the Judge has to be fair
18:25 and if you got evidence against me,
18:28 I need to have evidence to vindicate
18:31 in my evidence is in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ
18:35 and that's where the cross comes in because God,
18:37 a holy and just God, finds through the cross the evidence,
18:42 the blood of Jesus, we are vindicated
18:45 through the blood of Jesus
18:46 and whom we trust so, there at the cross,
18:50 we find the evidence, we find our salvation
18:54 and God says yes that is your evidence.
18:57 So a holy God can relate to sinners
19:00 through the blood of the cross.
19:03 Now we are talking about,
19:06 we need to bring this back in
19:07 and hide into how this helps children's to know things
19:11 and keeps them in the church.
19:13 You know, God is one who is very open and transparent.
19:18 He says comes let us reason together.
19:21 I want to have this communication with you,
19:23 which is what you are saying that parents need to,
19:25 it can't be God doesn't force us to act.
19:28 Nor can we force our children to act.
19:30 We have to train them up, give them principles,
19:34 but we have to recognize
19:36 that we do have to as they grow and mature.
19:40 They have to learn how to make some decisions on their own.
19:43 But how does this in your research?
19:46 What was it about understanding the sanctuary system?
19:51 And this relationship with God,
19:54 how is that helped keep the children in the church?
19:57 On the specific thing of dialogue,
20:01 the dialogue and we are processing problems
20:05 and discussing problems
20:06 this is what's going on in the sanctuary.
20:08 The Bible talks about in the New Testament,
20:12 well first of all, a lot of Christians
20:16 are looking to Jerusalem
20:17 for rebuilding of a temple down there, you know.
20:21 But it says in the book of Hebrews don't look down there.
20:24 Look to heaven.
20:26 Yeah, we are just like a cook needs of kitchen
20:29 a priest needs a sanctuary
20:31 and Jesus our priests in heaven interceding for us
20:35 is in the sanctuary and there are two different phases
20:39 of this sanctuary work for us
20:42 there is the continual forgiving us,
20:46 confession there is the that going on,
20:49 but there is also judgment phase
20:52 where by God opens the books for the celestial universe
20:57 for the angels to see how he has been fair
21:02 and relating to people throughout history,
21:05 and He wouldn't have to do that
21:07 because He is God, He could say well, hey.
21:09 Just because I said so.
21:10 Yeah, exactly, but instead He does say,
21:14 "Let us reason together,"
21:15 and Romans 3:3 talks about how God Himself,
21:22 allows Himself to be vindicated
21:24 and He overcomes when He is judged.
21:27 That almost seems blasphemous to think
21:31 that God being judged will actually,
21:34 God does allow Himself to be ordered
21:38 by His celestial universe.
21:42 He opens the book and says I have nothing to hide
21:45 just like a CEO of some corporation
21:49 who might be accused of some fraud.
21:53 He says, "Look, I have nothing to hide.
21:55 Open the books look over my shoulder,
21:56 see what I have done, see what I have got here."
21:59 And then the company, they can look and say,
22:02 "Well, hey, yeah, you have been fair and justice
22:05 this is the type of thing that's going on right now
22:09 just before Jesus comes in the sanctuary,"
22:12 whereby the devil who accuses not just us and,
22:15 you know, ultimately it's not us that he is getting it.
22:19 It's--He is trying to get a God. That's right.
22:22 You know, we are just peons,
22:23 you know, come along and live a few days and die.
22:26 He is trying to prove God's system is wrong,
22:29 which is what he has been trying to prove
22:30 from the very beginning. Exactly.
22:33 God is like the chair of the parole board, okay?
22:37 Now here in Illinois, if the chair of the parole board,
22:43 or the governor whoever pardon in this day,
22:46 let somebody who deserves to die paroles him turns him lose,
22:51 well, it's not just a question
22:53 why is that guy running around lose,
22:54 but who in the world-- Did it.
22:56 Yeah. Parole is such a person.
22:59 So here we are running around free of condemnation.
23:04 Now the Devil says,
23:06 "Mind whoever deserves to be condemned."
23:09 But God, the Father, paroled me in the sanctuary
23:11 so here I am running around free in the Lord,
23:14 rejoicing and the devil says,
23:16 "Hey, not only why is he running around
23:18 but how could you God set him free,
23:22 how could you paroled him from guilt and condemnation!
23:25 And so it's in the Sanctuary that God shows this man
23:30 is trusting in the blood of Jesus Christ. Amen.
23:33 Yes, He is got false and such,
23:37 but when you come down to that this man
23:39 is a believer and you are believer.
23:42 In my church, by definition,
23:44 they are the part of the body of Christ.
23:45 They are believing in Christ.
23:47 So therefore they have a right to be free.
23:52 God stands up and he defends our freedom.
23:55 "Whom the son has set free is free indeed."
23:57 Yes. Amen.
23:59 Now, you know, I'm thinking about the love of God.
24:03 Romans 5:8 is one of my favorite scriptures
24:07 that says that this is the way
24:09 God manifested His love for us
24:11 that He sent His son to die for us
24:14 while we were yet sinners.
24:16 Is this the idea in your research,
24:20 how if children understand this plan,
24:26 and understand that God is not that--
24:30 let me put it this way that God is the perfect Father,
24:34 the giver of every good and perfect gift
24:36 and that He is not one up there as judge looking
24:39 and saying I'm going to get you, get you,
24:41 ah, you did this wrong.
24:42 I'm going to get you,
24:43 but rather He is up there working with Christ,
24:47 the son as our advocate trying to say,
24:50 you know, come confess to me,
24:52 I'm going to send my Holy Spirit.
24:53 I am wooing you with my love.
24:55 Confess to me and I'll forgive your sins.
24:58 I'll pardon you and I'm going to protect you
25:01 from your adversary, the devil.
25:03 Is this idea?
25:06 Is this what gives children the cement they need to stay?
25:11 Yeah, the hope to carry on. Absolutely.
25:13 Hope, that's the word I was looking for.
25:15 And, you know, there is one more dimension to this
25:17 and the little time we have left,
25:20 the sanctuary also tells me not only,
25:23 is God not condemning me,
25:24 but I should not condemn myself.
25:26 Don't take that baton, right.
25:28 Yeah, yeah.
25:29 You know, often I would hear as a pastor or chaplain.
25:33 Well, look what I did.
25:35 I can't forgive myself.
25:37 And I would try to gently ask them,
25:41 "Well, do you think you are God?
25:42 You know, what makes you think
25:44 that you have the right to
25:46 either forgive yourself or condemn yourself?"
25:48 You know, we don't have that right.
25:49 We are not the judge of ourselves.
25:53 God is the Judge and He says,
25:55 I am in the forgiveness business.
25:58 So who are you or who am I to,
26:00 you know, think what I need to decide.
26:02 I'm smarter than God.
26:04 He forgave me, but I won't forgive myself.
26:07 And the sanctuary also tells me
26:09 that I have no right to condemn myself
26:12 and I have no right to let other people condemn me,
26:16 like suffer guilt trips that other people
26:17 might try to force upon me,
26:19 whether they are the Church members
26:21 or people out there in the world,
26:23 if God has accepted me
26:25 and He is the only one that accounts there,
26:27 He is the judge, if He says you are in,
26:30 I have no right to question that, nor does anybody else.
26:34 Praise God.
26:35 You know, I think one of the greatest lessons
26:37 of the sanctuary is that the typical day atonement,
26:41 which we are looking for a typical day of epitome
26:45 is that is the judgment was in favor
26:50 of the people of God, hallelujah.
26:52 Yes, judgment in favor, that's right.
26:54 So that's why you can have like to name Daniel, God is my judge.
26:58 It means God is my vindicator.
26:59 God's on my side.
27:01 Amen. Amen.
27:02 Martin this has been just fascinating.
27:05 I love this, and I want to thank you so much for returning again
27:09 and I think that, you've really,
27:11 your research is going to make a difference in the church.
27:14 Thank you.
27:15 We are so pleased to have you.
27:16 I hope that you have benefited from this
27:19 and enjoyed this wonderful study
27:21 and that this will just kind of hitting the very top of this.
27:27 I hope that you go and do some study
27:29 on your own for the sanctuary
27:31 and all the beautiful lessons that of the Gospel
27:35 that are in the sanctuary service.
27:38 And for now, we pray that you and your family
27:41 that the love of our Lord Jesus Christ
27:43 and the grace of Him and the love of the Father
27:47 and fellowship of the Holy Spirit
27:49 will be with you today and for everyday
27:52 throughout eternity. Thank you.