Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Ron and Nancy Rockey
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000319
00:30 Hello, my name is Shelly Quinn.
00:31 And welcome again to "Issues and Answers."
00:34 It's always a joy to have you tune in.
00:36 We appreciate your emails and your letters.
00:39 And we're just so glad that you've joined us.
00:41 And you're going to be glad that you've joined us today
00:43 because we are going to be talking about
00:46 'How to get off that road to self defeat?'
00:50 You know, the Bible says in Proverbs 14:12,
00:53 "There is a way that seems right unto a man,
00:56 but in the end, in thereof is the way of death."
01:02 Sometimes we are just so blinded
01:05 by our own circumstances and I'm going to
01:09 even say darkness of our hearts
01:10 because we don't understand what we're doing.
01:12 That we're going down a road that's such a wrong road
01:16 and the Lord is trying to get our attention and say,
01:19 "Life doesn't have to be this way."
01:23 Help me to welcome back, please our very special guest
01:27 Drs. Nancy and Ron Rockey.
01:30 We're so glad that you're back with us again.
01:33 Thank you. Glad to be with you.
01:34 Now you all are the founders of the Life Renewal Institute.
01:39 Tell me what that is, Ron?
01:41 It is where we help people to renew their life.
01:44 That's a good name for it Life Renewal.
01:48 And you do that, how?
01:50 Not by changing and giving them tools
01:52 to change behaviors, but to giving them tools
01:55 and understanding, so they can change the character defect,
01:58 their thoughts and feelings.
02:00 When you change the character defect
02:01 the behaviors will follow.
02:03 That's good. That's good.
02:04 Now you both are family life
02:08 and health educators not health.
02:10 Help me say that right? Emotional health and life.
02:12 Emotional health, okay, that's good.
02:14 And you both have master's degrees
02:18 in family counseling and doctoral degrees in Psychology.
02:22 So what we are going to be talking about today
02:25 is that road to self defeat.
02:29 And kind of, set us up for this.
02:31 How do we get on the road to self defeat?
02:34 Give us just a little synopsis.
02:36 We get there because it's a gender for us.
02:40 He wants us there.
02:42 He wants us to be on the road that seems
02:46 like it's the right road like Scriptures say,
02:50 "There is a way that seems right."
02:52 Because that's the only thing we've ever known or ever seen.
02:55 Right. So it's seems right to us.
02:57 Seems natural. It seems normal. Natural, yeah.
03:00 The truth is when we are wounded early on
03:03 by rejection-- sexual, physical, emotional abuse or by neglect.
03:10 Or even an early on disease
03:13 where the child is in the hospital
03:15 for extended periods of time.
03:16 Okay. Same thing.
03:17 And has to be separated from--
03:19 The parents.
03:20 Primary caregivers mummy and daddy.
03:22 When these wounds happen to us,
03:26 we live through them as though
03:29 they were filters for the rest of our life.
03:32 Unless, we are given the help and the assistance
03:35 that we need to get beyond the wound,
03:38 so that we look toward the road to victory
03:42 instead of, the road to self defeat.
03:44 We stay on that self defeat road
03:46 because we think we have to.
03:49 We're driven there in order to survive.
03:53 Because what happens is those wounds
03:56 out of those wounds we draw conclusions
03:58 and those conclusions are about our life,
04:00 are what seems right to us.
04:03 Right. So let me see if I'm even beginning to grasp this.
04:07 Let's say that someone has been emotionally abandoned
04:10 as a child, maybe their parents were always there.
04:12 They had plenty to eat, you know, roof over their head,
04:15 but they didn't have that emotional nourishing
04:19 that they should have.
04:21 Their parents were just absent, if you are awakened.
04:23 So are you saying that because they grew up this way then,
04:27 they feel like well, this is normal, this is natural.
04:31 I am not worthy of this, so they actually set up
04:36 circumstances in their life.
04:37 They choose this road in which they will walk this path
04:41 and they set up circumstances in their life to keep
04:47 this in perpetuity, this emotional abandonment.
04:50 That's exactly correct. That is correct.
04:51 All right.
04:53 And sad but true, sad but true.
04:55 We are afraid that if we don't take charge,
04:59 then we're going to be wounded again.
05:02 And so we live in fear and fear that slippery slope
05:07 that sends us on the road to self destruction.
05:12 And so fear then drives us to developing techniques
05:16 in order to try to feel safe or to numb our pain.
05:22 So they can be addictions of all kinds.
05:25 They can be anger or worthlessness,
05:30 and so I will withdraw from people
05:33 and from society, poor relationships.
05:37 These are all techniques that we develop
05:40 in an attempt to survive.
05:44 And I know for me early on in my life
05:46 what I did was, I had a defensive wall
05:49 that I would keep, you know, I kind of,
05:52 kept my distance from people because of pain level
05:57 and as long as I didn't let you get
05:59 beyond that point emotionally,
06:00 then you really couldn't hurt me.
06:02 That's right.
06:03 And it took me a while to learn how to let down
06:05 that wall and be vulnerable.
06:06 That's the way it was in our marriage.
06:08 When we got married,
06:10 Nancy used to say to me, "Do you love?"
06:12 And I say, "I haven't left yet."
06:15 And for two years it was this-- drove me nuts.
06:19 She said, "Do you love me?
06:20 Do you love me?" Well, sure I love you.
06:21 Well, why don't you say so?
06:23 Why do I have to say it, I said it once.
06:24 And why do you have to keep coming
06:26 around the same old mountain.
06:27 But what really the issue was that,
06:29 I didn't experience her love.
06:32 Yeah. How could I?
06:33 With my early beginnings of severe damage
06:36 and severe rejection, I really wanted somebody
06:39 to love me, and to hold me and to say that,
06:42 that you're special and all those kinds of things.
06:44 And when she did say that to me
06:46 it wasn't computing, it was abuses to me.
06:50 So he actually, even on our honeymoon,
06:53 on the 5th day of our marriage, he pushed me away and he said,
06:57 "Will you leave me alone?
07:00 What did I do, marry a slut?
07:03 Oh, mercy. Yeah.
07:04 So when I-- Now she rejects me--
07:07 After that little comment, she rejects me.
07:09 Now I feel loved.
07:11 Oh, mercy. Okay, so...
07:13 And I thought to myself when he said it.
07:15 And what a convoluted mess we have going on here.
07:17 Oh, absolutely.
07:18 So basically, you push her way, your rejection to her
07:24 is making you because of your background,
07:26 you've totally devastated--
07:30 So she draws away and because she is withdrawn,
07:33 you feel like this is normal and natural
07:36 because of this rejection.
07:37 It's seems right unto a man. Because I feel rejected.
07:39 Oh, mercy. And the end thereof is death.
07:42 Oh, mercy.
07:43 And it would have been definite death to our marriage
07:46 and nearly was.
07:48 We used to say, we thought our marriage
07:50 was a match made in heaven, but actually
07:53 on our wedding day that match lit an inferno,
07:57 that nearly destroyed us and our children.
08:02 And you know what, it's not unusual
08:06 and it's not just the non-Christians
08:10 that get into this mess.
08:12 Because Satan has-- Christ Himself felt rejected.
08:15 And Satan has an agenda. Yeah.
08:18 And isn't he going to come after the Christians?
08:21 Absolutely. You know...
08:23 I have to say something though when you said
08:25 that Christ experienced rejection.
08:28 But, you know, he didn't take offence like we do.
08:30 No, because He was connected with the Father.
08:33 He went beyond His dysfunctions and I don't like
08:35 that word, but He was brought up--
08:39 He went beyond his wounds. His wound.
08:40 Yes, he went beyond His wound.
08:43 Why, because he had no sort source,
08:45 except for the Father.
08:47 That's wonderful.
08:48 And you know the other thing is too that God taught me,
08:51 is that...what was the word that we were using offence,
08:58 a spirit of offence.
09:00 He said it's the spirit of pride.
09:01 You bet.
09:03 And if you... Christ had no pride,
09:05 so that's why He couldn't be offended.
09:07 But anyway, on to our thing, so here we've got
09:10 these little techniques that we're using,
09:13 but the result of this, the destructive result of this
09:17 Is that we pay a price for every technique
09:21 that we develop.
09:22 The alcoholic may lose his job, his relationship
09:26 and certainly his finances.
09:28 The rager, what happens to the rager.
09:32 Well, who wants to live with the rager,
09:34 who wants to be around them?
09:36 And so they definitely lose relationships
09:39 and of course, they're going to lose their jobs too because
09:42 As well as their health.
09:43 No, employer wants somebody like that.
09:46 And, yes, they're going to lose their health.
09:48 We know that anger causes major physical illness.
09:52 So people then end up going down this path
09:57 that seems right to them
09:58 because it's the only thing that they've ever known.
10:00 And it's just absolutely in the opposite direction
10:04 that what God would have them, go down.
10:07 But they get so upset that they end up
10:10 leaving relationships, leaving church--
10:12 Leaving everything.
10:14 And they say, well, we're not paying such a bad price.
10:17 They minimize.
10:19 After they realize there are paying a price,
10:21 they try and deny that they are.
10:23 And then they start blaming the universe
10:26 for all of their issues.
10:28 If I had a better wife, wasn't there the fellow
10:32 who said to you, "I'm so glad
10:34 and will be so glad when the Lord
10:36 finally comes,
10:37 because I won't have to live with her anymore."
10:40 And he pointed to his wife.
10:41 And I said, "Sir, you're correct.
10:43 You'll not have to live with her anymore."
10:46 He says, "Glad to here that."
10:47 I said, "You know why?"
10:49 He says, "No, because you won't be there."
10:52 You're not given up to that first resurrection.
10:55 With that kind of attitude.
10:57 And so we blame the universe if I had a better wife,
11:00 if I had better parents.
11:02 If, if, if, if, if, if.
11:03 Did I didn't really blame you though, did I?
11:06 Sweet heart, for everything.
11:08 Absolutely, everything. Oh, that's true.
11:10 Well, I did blame you for your sneezing habits.
11:13 And everything else.
11:15 You know, she used to just sneezes in threes.
11:18 I'm telling you what.
11:19 The more I get to know you, I never sneeze just once,
11:23 so you're not a just too much a lot.
11:24 Too much a lot.
11:26 I sneeze once and get it over with.
11:27 You don't sneeze in threes.
11:30 And then we finally develop as close to death
11:34 as we're going to get which is denial.
11:38 And we jokingly say, "Well, The Nile is not just
11:41 a river in Egypt."
11:43 Denial in fact, is the anesthesia that Satan
11:47 uses when he wants to rip your heart out.
11:51 Because this makes us apathetic about the situation
11:55 we're not going to do anything.
11:56 And on the emotional tone scale,
11:59 apathy is the step just before death--
12:04 Wow. And apathy is a Laodicea.
12:08 I have need of nothing.
12:11 There is nothing wrong with me.
12:14 Everything I have come from a perfect home
12:16 and a perfect background.
12:18 There's nothing wrong with me.
12:20 I had one gentleman at our seminar,
12:22 say "My parents are perfect and I had a perfect life
12:26 and my marriage is perfect."
12:27 I grab the hold of his sleeve and he says,
12:29 "What are you doing?"
12:30 I said, "Tell me more about your parents
12:32 and your background and your marriage."
12:33 He's going on, "What are you doing?"
12:34 I said, "Don't worry about that, tell me some more."
12:36 He goes on and on and on
12:38 and he finally got a little ticked off, he says,
12:40 "What are you doing holding my sleeve?"
12:43 I said, "I'm holding on, you're going to ascend
12:45 any minute and I'm going to go with you."
12:48 If we're walking the face of the earth
12:50 or our parents are walking the face of the earth
12:53 or they're buried in it.
12:55 They had major issues.
12:56 It's called sin. All have sinned.
12:59 All have sinned and fallen.
13:01 And our falling short of the glory of God.
13:04 That's a linear verb.
13:06 Let me ask you this because what you're just saying
13:09 is you recognize the reason you had,
13:12 I mean, you're doing that telling him,
13:13 he's acting like, he's getting rid of the sin,
13:15 but you recognize this is denial.
13:18 Absolutely. That means that--
13:21 You know, in growing up in my home,
13:24 I think, I've shared this before,
13:25 but very dysfunctional home and I would not speak
13:30 of it outside of the home.
13:32 I told everyone how perfect it was.
13:34 I mean, I did this purposely was too mask
13:39 what was going on, but you actually
13:42 almost start buying into this little lie,
13:48 is a good word for it, because that's what is it.
13:51 It seems right so it's kind of like, it's perfect,
13:54 it's perfect, it's perfect, it's perfect and you never
13:56 deal with the roots of the problem.
13:58 Till one day you wake up and go,
14:01 there wasn't perfect about it.
14:03 And then suddenly God can start healing.
14:08 Living a lie is destroying yourself.
14:11 There is no question about it.
14:14 Okay, if apathy is on the emotional tone of scale,
14:20 if apathy is just one step before emotional death.
14:26 If you look at the opposite end of the scale,
14:28 what is the step before emotional healing?
14:35 Because anger at least says, something is wrong
14:40 and I have a reason there is a cause, for me to be angry.
14:46 It's close to the top. Okay.
14:48 And as I finally tell myself the truth
14:52 and look at the reason for my anger.
14:56 Now I can move forward.
14:58 I can deal with that reason.
15:02 You know, there's some little Christian girl
15:04 out there like me that's saying, "Ooh, wait.
15:07 We're taught we are not supposed to be angry."
15:09 But there is such a thing as appropriate anger
15:12 because Jesus expressed appropriate anger.
15:16 The Bible says-- it doesn't say, "Don't be angry."
15:19 It says, "In your anger do not sin."
15:22 So you're talking about the kind of anger
15:26 you had was not a healthy anger.
15:29 No, it was self justification anger.
15:31 That's where the key is at.
15:32 Okay. Yours was the self justification anger.
15:35 The anger we're talking about right now is in stepping back
15:38 and once you recognize and saying, "Man, this was
15:41 messed up and it shouldn't have happened this way.
15:46 And I've got to..." I can do something about it.
15:50 You see, because God tells me that forgiveness is necessary.
15:55 But the angry person says, "I don't want to forgive.
16:02 I'm still seething about what was done."
16:07 And so we tell people to do what David did in the Bible.
16:12 What did David do?
16:13 He wrote.
16:15 And he wrote many Psalms.
16:17 Even being angry at God h rather wrote it down.
16:20 Why are you not defending me?
16:22 Why are all my enemies?
16:24 And he's railing on.
16:26 But notice, at the end of the Psalm,
16:29 after getting rid of the anger.
16:34 He comes to...I really know you've been there all along,
16:39 You are my rock and my fortress.
16:43 And when we tell individuals, "Okay, so your daddy
16:47 mistreated you.
16:49 He beat you on a regular basis.
16:51 He called you terrible names.
16:54 Get out with your pen. And start a letter."
16:58 Dear Dad.
17:01 Doesn't have to be sent.
17:02 No, this is not a letter for revenge.
17:05 This is a letter to empty the junk that you've been
17:07 carrying around for years and years.
17:10 God says, give me your burden.
17:11 Why are you carrying this junk?
17:13 But my issue is not with God.
17:15 My issue is with dad.
17:19 So you write out the letter.
17:21 And then we tell, folks, take that letter
17:26 to someone you trust, a pastor, a counselor,
17:31 maybe your spouse and read out loud
17:35 what your hand has written.
17:39 It's called confession.
17:42 And that's what we need to do to empty the junk.
17:47 There's something about writing.
17:50 It's cathartic. Yeah.
17:52 The hand will write what the mouth cannot speak.
17:56 It's incredible, what you'll discover you've written.
18:00 And part of that I think is that when you sit down to write
18:04 you have to put some thought into it
18:06 'cause we all pretty good at denying what we're feeling.
18:10 So basically that's a technique that you use.
18:13 You know, I always use David's example of--
18:17 I call it his prayer journal, Psalms or his prayer journal.
18:21 And I do journal my prayers and I teach that even.
18:24 Not for everybody.
18:26 If my husband J.D. thought he had to journal his prayers,
18:28 he'd probably never pray again,
18:30 but it doesn't work for everybody.
18:32 But it really works well for me
18:33 because you know I used to think how can I pray an hour
18:38 when the Lord asked me to pray, an hour?
18:41 And I thought, how?
18:42 And I started drilling my prayers
18:44 and I found I could pray two or three hours
18:45 because you don't know what's in you,
18:47 but your mind really does kick up a level
18:50 and these things come
18:53 and He brings to your remembrance
18:55 all these various things.
18:56 So this is something that's one way
19:02 that you teach that people identify their anger.
19:07 They get it out here.
19:09 They let their mouth speak it in front of someone.
19:11 Their eyes see it, their ears hear it,
19:13 their mouth speak the words.
19:15 Through all their senses,
19:16 they are giving back to their mind
19:19 I've taken care of this.
19:23 This is really fascinating. What--
19:24 Does that mean it goes away after that?
19:27 No, but you know you've taken care of it.
19:29 Your mind knows you've taken care of it.
19:31 And then when it comes back again,
19:33 so you know Lord, thank You for letting that all go away.
19:37 Okay, so basically it's not just writing out the wrongs.
19:41 It's writing out these feelings that are in you
19:44 and getting to that place that you are ready for forgive.
19:48 And that's what happens you see in the recovery process
19:51 that Ron and I've created called the journey.
19:55 It is a process of writing out our pain,
20:00 but first getting knowledge and understanding.
20:04 Writing out our pain, confessing it in a small group
20:09 that has become supportive and safe.
20:13 That counsel of many that God says, "There is wisdom at."
20:18 What about is it Isaiah 48:17? I'd have to look that up.
20:22 Where the Lord says, "Do not dwell on the past"
20:27 because He says, "I am doing a new thing in you."
20:31 And do you not perceive it,
20:33 suddenly it will spring forward--
20:34 The key there is dwelling. Okay. So--
20:36 We don't sit in it. All right.
20:38 That's where I am trying to get to.
20:39 Acquire the knowledge,
20:41 deal with it, and go on with your life.
20:42 All right because you don't want somebody
20:44 wallowing around in this.
20:46 This isn't an exercise that they are going to spend
20:48 weeks and months writing out stuff.
20:50 No, it is not-- and letting it--
20:51 This is something that they sit down, they deal with it.
20:53 Taking personal responsibility and go on with your life.
20:56 And then you know, we tell, folks,
20:58 some people burn what they've written.
21:02 Some people tear it up into tiny shreds
21:05 and stuff it in a balloon and let it go.
21:07 It's just a matter of saying,
21:09 "Okay, I am letting this go, God."
21:12 I am doing what you've said, get rid of bitterness,
21:17 anger, malice, resentment,
21:20 all of those things in Ephesians 4:30.
21:23 Get rid of it.
21:26 And, you know, I have to tell you this little story.
21:30 I had many concerns and issues with my father.
21:34 He said many things that were extremely hurtful to me.
21:37 Again, that's not that he was evil or bad.
21:40 He just didn't know how to say the right thing.
21:42 It was the result of his wounds. And I know that.
21:46 And, you know, I can take that back
21:47 four generations in my family
21:50 and see how the sins of the fathers.
21:51 We become what we behold.
21:53 And, oh, sometime went by and I noticed my relationship
21:58 with Ron was improving quite a bit
22:02 because I was no longer assigning to my husband
22:06 the resentment I had to my father,
22:09 which by the way is a normal this for us to do.
22:14 Wow. Sad but true.
22:16 So one day we were sitting down watching a Gaither video
22:20 and there is a pianist that is now deceased unfortunately,
22:24 but used to play for Gaither.
22:25 His name was Anthony Burger.
22:27 And Anthony told a little story
22:30 and then a song began to play by the orchestra
22:35 and it was a song I loved and used to sing,
22:39 "We shall behold Him."
22:41 And Anthony went to the piano and he sat down at the piano
22:46 when the camera came around behind him.
22:49 And it shown down on his figures
22:52 and I'll tell you I had to do a double take
22:56 because those were not Anthony's hands,
22:58 they were my father's.
23:00 My father played just like Anthony Burger.
23:04 And I knew they were my dad's hands
23:06 because you see he'd cut off this finger here
23:09 and this finger and this finger in a circular saw,
23:13 but my father never missed a beat on the piano.
23:16 I saw my father's hand and the tears poured
23:21 and my thought was "Yes, daddy, I will behold you.
23:27 And I will run to you."
23:30 Because I know know you rejected me,
23:36 but I also rejected you,
23:40 because of your rejection of me.
23:45 So now when I speak of my father
23:47 it's with great love and admiration
23:50 recognizing he did the best he could with what he had.
23:53 That's healing. That's recovery.
23:56 And that's what God wants for every one of us.
23:58 We need to remember where our parents,
24:00 our great grandparents,
24:02 and our great, great grandparents came from.
24:04 A hundred years ago was the primary
24:07 the father and mother survival.
24:10 Sixty years ago, World War II was the primary thought
24:13 of a mother and father, survival.
24:16 And then the 50's hit
24:17 and we go into connecting and bonding.
24:20 And all these issues and none of us know anything about--
24:23 Don't know how to do it.
24:25 So we've gone out from a survival age to relational age
24:27 and nobody has taught us how to do it.
24:29 Nobody's taught our parents, our grandparent
24:31 nor did they teach us.
24:33 It's about time we learn.
24:34 God has got a way out of this. Amen.
24:37 All along He's saying, "I love you, I accept you."
24:40 But our wounds prevent us from hearing it
24:44 and feeling it with our hearts.
24:46 And till we let go, it's hard to receive from God
24:50 when we are filled with junk.
24:52 Tell about your elbow macaroni, we just have a minute.
24:55 Ron dreamt this up one day and he said in a seminar,
24:59 we ought to be like a piece of elbow macaroni.
25:02 Wow, did I do a double take? What in a world is he saying?
25:06 He said, "You know, the Holy Spirit
25:07 is being poured on us at all times,
25:10 but we are like macaroni
25:11 that sits in macaroni and cheese.
25:14 Cheese is clogging up that passage way
25:17 through the elbow macaroni
25:18 and the cheese is our wounds
25:20 and we hold on to them for dear life,
25:23 so the Holy Spirit doesn't flow through us
25:26 and out, to benefit others.
25:29 And when wounds come to us they get stuck in our cheese
25:32 and we say, we have a right to be angry,
25:35 we have a right to resent."
25:37 So it does a wound screaming. Yeah.
25:41 He says give me your burdens.
25:42 Let me take them. Let me carry them for you.
25:44 Amen. But we don't.
25:47 Got to hold on, got to hold on, and got to hold on.
25:50 I have got to be right.
25:51 I want to get even with them people.
25:54 So basically, I mean, our time again is just rushing away,
25:59 but what we were saying here is that
26:02 if you are on the road to self defeat.
26:04 You've got to-- see if I am giving this the right wrap here,
26:09 what you've got to do is recognize
26:12 you are on the wrong road.
26:14 And that's what you are doing when you sit down and say,
26:16 "Okay, I am writing all of this stuff out
26:19 and saying, you know,
26:21 now I am going to confess this, I need to forgive somebody,
26:23 I recognize my own wounds."
26:25 And then that's when you have that forgiveness
26:30 that's going on that you can turn around
26:33 and get on the right path and begin the renewal process.
26:36 That's just the beginning. That's right.
26:38 But that's what it's all about.
26:40 In fact, they can go to our website
26:41 and find the 3ABN little tag up there
26:44 and they can download several pages of this concept.
26:49 Do this real quickly because we're running out of time.
26:51 www.yourlri.com, www.yourlri.com.
27:02 Thank you so much, Nancy and Ron.
27:05 We just really appreciate you coming
27:07 and sharing your life's experience
27:10 and by education and by personal experience.
27:14 I hope for those of you at home
27:16 that if you are on a path that seems right to you
27:19 and others are saying, "Hey, wait a minute.
27:21 This isn't the way it should be."
27:23 That you'll wake up and realize
27:25 that you don't have to keep going down
27:28 that self defeating path.
27:30 There is a way out.
27:32 God tells you that He's got a plan for your life.
27:35 It's better than the one that you're living
27:37 and it's a plan to prosper you
27:39 and to give you some good things and abundant life.
27:43 So we encourage you to look to Him for some answers.
27:47 Now may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,
27:49 the love of the Father
27:51 and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit
27:52 be with you today and for the rest of your life.
27:55 Thank you.