Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Ron and Nancy Rockey
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000316
00:30 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn and welcome again to
00:32 Issues and Answers. You know, I just want to share
00:36 something with you. There's someone out there and you've
00:38 been told that you were a mistake, that you were an
00:41 accident. And did you know you weren't an accident. God knows
00:45 you intimately. He knew you as you were being formed in the
00:49 womb. He knew you. The Bible says that the very number of
00:53 hairs on your head are numbered, that he knows your thoughts from
00:57 afar off and he says that he has inscribed on the palms of his
01:02 hands and that he will never forget you. Today we have a
01:06 fascinating program because we've got some fascinating
01:10 guests who are family and life educators and what we're going
01:15 to be talking about is the importance of our early
01:19 experiences; the experience of the fetus in the womb and the
01:23 first seven years. So let me introduce to you our very
01:26 special guests. Please help me welcome Ron and Nancy Rockey.
01:30 Good to be here. It is so good to have both of
01:33 you here. Now you are the founders for, tell me the name
01:38 of this again. Life Renewal Institute.
01:41 Life Renewal Institute. I had that before we started; for the
01:45 minute it slipped my mind. Let me ask you, we'll start with you
01:48 Nancy, tell me a little bit about your educational
01:51 background so that we can help explain to the people why you're
01:54 in this business that you're in.
01:56 Okay. Well childhood set me up to become a nurse. It also set
02:03 me up to be very interested in the human mind. So even in my
02:08 nursing career, psychiatric nursing was my favorite. Our
02:14 marriage set us up to have many issues.
02:18 That's because she had a lot of problems we had to fix.
02:24 Yeah, one big one. So after about 12 years of a nightmare
02:29 of a marriage Ron decided the marriage is going to end in
02:34 divorce and I won't be able to be a minister anymore so I'll
02:37 go back to school and get another degree and he went back
02:41 for a masters in family therapy figuring. How interesting.
02:45 Well if you can't fix your own maybe you can fix everybody
02:49 else's. So after his first class he came home and literally
02:54 dragged me to the next class. So we were both enrolled and we
02:59 graduated a semester apart because he started before I did.
03:05 So we have a masters in family therapy. And several years later
03:11 we decided we wanted to continue and so we did and then received
03:17 our doctorates in counseling psychology. So we both have
03:20 those two degrees in common, our graduate degrees.
03:23 Okay, but then Ron you also have a degree in religious sciences?
03:28 No I got a bachelor's degree in theology.
03:32 In theology and you pastored for 20 years.
03:35 Twenty years, yeah.
03:36 Now tell us what is Life Renewal Institute?
03:39 Life Renewal Institute is an organization of people who are
03:45 concerned about people. People hurt everywhere, in the church,
03:50 out of the church, it makes no difference. Because Satan has an
03:56 agenda. The agenda is to destroy us. So Life Renewal Institute
04:02 gives people good information about their beginnings and what
04:08 set us up to hurt and to have issues and then we offer the
04:14 tools to recover. And please understand that all recovery
04:19 that sanctification process is through the power of God.
04:24 Not something we do on our own. God is always the power but he
04:28 tells us we have work to do; we must examine.
04:31 He says so, that my people die for lack of knowledge and the
04:35 irony of it is a lot of people have thought that that text
04:39 meant my people die for lack of doctrine, but that's not what
04:43 the word is saying and that's in Hosea 4:6. Hosea 1, 2, 3, 4
04:47 and 5 say they don't know me, there's no love in the land,
04:50 there's adultery going on, there is all kinds of garbage going on
04:53 He's got a whole long list of things that are going wrong
04:55 and they're going wrong because they don't have the right
04:58 knowledge, the right understanding of why they're
05:00 doing what they're doing.
05:02 You know something, the Bible says the heart is deceitful
05:06 above all things. We cannot know our own heart, not like God
05:11 knows it. But if we don't grow up feeling that we have value
05:16 and worth to someone then we have a hard time. If we feel so
05:22 void of this we really have nothing to give.
05:24 That's pretty much where Nancy and I are coming from. We not
05:27 only have the degrees but we also have the major dysfunction
05:31 of our beginnings. Nothing like experience, huh?
05:35 That's one of the things that bothered me an awful lot.
05:38 We would go to a psychologist for help and I was the nut case
05:43 in our relationship. But they would say, I wish I was as
05:46 healthy as you are Ron. Why don't you go home. Bring your
05:49 wife back next time, she's the one who needs some help,
05:51 because I was a phenomenal con man.
05:53 Now you were a pastor at this time?
05:55 And I was a pastor at this time.
05:57 This proves a point though. Not everyone who's a pastor has
06:01 been called to that pastoral position as much as sometimes
06:05 people choose it as a career. But we have to remember that
06:09 no matter whether you're called or it's a career that the person
06:13 that is standing in the pulpit is not perfect. He is also a
06:16 sinner saved by grace that God's working in the sanctification
06:20 process. And God will still use them no
06:21 matter what their beginnings are or how messed up they are.
06:25 God still uses them because it's not the messenger, it's the
06:28 message. Absolutely. Now you had a
06:31 dysfunctional upbringing. Very much so.
06:34 And so that's what your foundation was.
06:37 Absolutely because my mother didn't want any more children,
06:39 my dad didn't want any more children. They were very, very
06:42 poor. So all of a sudden after eight years my mother finds
06:45 herself pregnant with me and she says wait a minute, I can't be
06:49 pregnant because we can't have any more kids. So she went into
06:53 total denial; so much denial that I wasn't born until the
06:57 end of the 10th month of her pregnancy. So what does that say
07:02 about me wanting to come out because it's the child who
07:05 throws out a hormone that creates the activity to create
07:08 the birth. So I'm saying, I don't want to come out.
07:11 It could also be that you were undernourished.
07:14 Oh not undernourished because I came out at 10-1/2 pounds.
07:19 And believe it or not was born up in the attic and that very
07:25 difficult delivery sent his mother to the hospital with
07:30 major complications. So much so that it was predicted she would
07:35 not live. She did live and then daddy took her away
07:42 with him. It was during the war and he was working aboard ship
07:47 putting in heating and air conditioning. And he took mother
07:52 away. So Ron was raised, cared for, and I use the word loosely,
07:57 by his nine-year-old sister.
08:00 About four or five years ago it just hit me. I said, wait a
08:04 minute, who took care of me when you went to school? And I found
08:07 out the rest of the story, that there was a nanny that came in,
08:09 a 16-year-old girl who took care of me while she was in school.
08:12 Then she would leave and my sister would come home. She
08:15 would go to school and the nanny would come in. My mother
08:18 would come home periodically. And the reason for all this
08:22 confusion is that in the first year of life we learn 50% of
08:25 what we need for life with feelings only. And what did I
08:29 learn? Never trust a woman because she's going to leave.
08:33 Not a knowledge but a feeling that something is wrong. So when
08:38 we got married where was my greatest fear feeling-wise?
08:41 Fear that you were going to be abandoned by your wife.
08:45 So I set it up where I put a pay phone in the parsonage,
08:48 to control her outgoing calls, we lived out in the boon docks
08:52 so she couldn't walk anywhere and the car never worked when I
08:56 left the house. So you were just a total control
08:59 control freak, if I may use that word.
09:01 Just a little bit. But now this is what brought you
09:08 into what we're talking about today. I mean, as you came into
09:13 this you all have done a lot of research to find out how
09:17 important, even in the womb... I mean, modern day science and
09:21 you've been quoting me statistics from the National
09:24 Institute of Health, is proving that it is critical, I mean that
09:29 the fetus is actually responding to the mother's feelings, to
09:34 what's going on and with the mother's thought processes even.
09:40 That's surprising me. Well what's so amazing is that
09:44 we now know that at the fourth month of pregnancy the baby
09:50 begins to feel mother's feelings and interprets them as it's
09:55 own. So you have a pregnant woman who doesn't want a child.
10:01 So what does the child say? I'm not wanted.
10:05 We're not saying that the brain is so fully developed that they
10:10 fully understand all this but there is this transference of
10:14 feeling that we can't really explain. It's more not head
10:17 knowledge but heart knowledge. The child is getting heart
10:20 knowledge. It goes to the cells of the body
10:22 is what happens. It is totally amazing and it's the work of
10:26 Dr. Thomas Verny who for his entire career has studied
10:31 prenatal influence. And it only goes along with words of
10:36 inspiration which tell us that during the pregnancy the
10:39 relationship between the husband and the wife is extremely
10:44 impactful to that child and according to Verny's research
10:49 he says it is the greatest impact on a child's physical,
10:54 emotional and spiritual life for the rest of the child's life and
10:59 what's so impactful is the relationship between the birth
11:04 mother and the man who impregnated her during the
11:08 pregnancy. Let me show you in a real-life
11:10 example about how that works. Nancy was pregnant with our
11:13 second child and just before she got pregnant the doctor said she
11:18 had to get pregnant immediately. Otherwise, forget the whole
11:21 thing. It was quite a complication in her body.
11:26 And I said, we don't need another child. We've got one.
11:31 In the doctor's office she said to me, I would rather die
11:36 having our second child than to have our child raised alone like
11:40 I was. Well now you have to understand with my rejection
11:45 issues from the early feelings of my beginnings so in reality
11:49 then my head interpreted she only wanted me to have children.
11:54 See rejected individuals think it's all about them.
12:01 And fear of abandonment and that fear of rejection are just like
12:06 sloop. Kindred spirits and they are overpowering.
12:08 And so what I did was well when she was seven months pregnant
12:12 and she was starting to get sick and there were some questions
12:15 as to what was going on in her body if she was going to die
12:19 or not die from the pregnancy, I said, well since she's got her
12:23 first child, she's got her second child, she doesn't need
12:27 me anymore so since, now watch this, since she's going to
12:32 cut me off, I'll cut her off first.
12:35 Okay so you're putting up that wall of defense.
12:38 So I left her. I got on an airplane, got a passport, visa
12:44 and I left her. Bang! I was gone.
12:47 This was before the baby was born? How messed up is your
12:50 second child then. We're going to talk about that
12:52 in a second. Watch what happens. She is seven months pregnant.
12:56 I'm in Canada and ready to leave and go to Europe. I'm going to
12:59 start my whole life all over again. I had the ability to just
13:03 cut, wall off anything, just disconnect. I called her up and
13:08 said, I said I at least ought to say goodbye. So I called her
13:11 up and said goodbye. She says where
13:13 are you. And I said, I'm in Canada. And she says ohhh you're
13:17 in Canada. Well I'd been gone for 12 hours from the house.
13:21 And she's acting like this! She says, what are you doing in
13:26 Canada. I'm on my way to Europe. Ohhh. When you coming home?
13:30 That blew me so far out of the water that she really wanted me
13:34 home after abandoning her! I said, I'll be home in the
13:38 morning. Now here's the key. Many years later when our
13:41 daughter is in her early 30s we're sitting around with her
13:45 husband, the four of us at 1:30 at night and I said girl I want
13:49 you to be honest with me. You know daddy can take whatever you
13:54 want to throw at him. What is it like every day, what is the
13:58 greatest fear you have in your life? She said every day my
14:02 husband goes out the door. I said what is that? I'm afraid
14:07 he's not going to come home. She has no reason. They guy is
14:12 committed to her. But the feeling from the womb is that
14:16 he's going to leave her.
14:18 I don't want anybody out here to think this is woo woo, but I've
14:26 heard and I've read some scientific studies that talk
14:30 about within our own body that negative thoughts make
14:33 impressions on our cells and I think they said negative
14:37 thoughts make twice the impression of the positive
14:39 thoughts. Basically what you're saying is somehow there is this
14:43 transference and there's actually almost an impression
14:45 that is made... It's a feeling that something is
14:49 wrong here. Actually it's a little more
14:52 detailed. When a pregnant woman is stressed or any person is
14:59 stressed, the adrenal glands put out stress hormones. One of
15:04 those hormones is called cortisol and cortisol in higher
15:10 amounts than normal create in the child in the womb abnormal
15:17 connections between the neurons in the brain so my stress at his
15:23 leaving, he left at 7 o'clock in the morning, my phone call came
15:28 at nearly midnight. So he's gone a long time. In my heart of
15:34 hearts I knew he'd gone. Was there a fight? No. But women
15:39 have a sixth sense, especially sensitive women, and I knew
15:45 and I was pacing the floor with a one year old on my hip,
15:51 weeping, praying and afraid to call anyone because he was a
15:57 senior theology student.
15:58 They never knew that, the kids never knew that until they were
16:01 21 that I left their mother.
16:02 And yet that child got my high level of cortisol so the
16:11 abnormal connection in her brain is men abandon just like the
16:20 message Ron got, women will abandon you.
16:24 So it's like brain mapping. It is, exactly right.
16:28 That's what it is, it's brain mapping. That's very
16:32 interesting. You know there's some people out here who I just
16:36 know you're watching and you think, man I know, my mother's
16:40 told me what it was like when she was pregnant and maybe I can
16:43 even see some of this. But what's the way out? I mean when
16:47 we've got the enemy attacking because when you said that it's
16:51 Satan's agenda. You know I believe the reason he attacks
16:57 families is because his agenda is to ruin the church and the
17:01 family is the nucleus that makes up the church; it's all a bunch
17:06 of families. So he's going to attack the families, try to
17:11 destroy that. You know, children and the procreation which he
17:15 cannot do he's attacking through abortion and everything else.
17:21 So he's trying to bring us down. For someone out there, maybe
17:25 there's a pregnant mother right now who is saying, man I'm in
17:30 stress and you're telling me that I am passing this on to my
17:34 child. I'm marking my child.
17:37 One thing we want to get clear. Nobody goes through this life
17:40 without being marked because we're living in a sin-filled
17:45 world. That's number one.
17:47 And why would Satan leave anyone without bugging them somehow?
17:51 That's number one. And number two and I agree with what Nancy
17:55 has said right there. If some people say I've come from a
17:59 perfect family, we have no problems in our family and I'm
18:03 asking one question, why does Satan leave you alone? That's
18:08 number one. The only way he'll leave you
18:11 alone is if you're in his camp. Then he just pretends to leave
18:13 you alone for a little while.
18:15 Then the third thing is we've got to keep remembering that if
18:18 we're teachable, we're fixable.
18:20 That's one beautiful thing about
18:21 the mind and the body. It is regenerative, it is plastic, it
18:26 can be recreated. That's why Christ said that I've come to
18:29 give you a new heart and a new mind. And the problem is the
18:33 Christian church and psychology is giving new behaviors and it's
18:36 not working. It has to be that total
18:38 transformation. Absolutely. There's a statement
18:42 Time magazine October 21, 1991. You know what that is by heart.
18:49 And it's amazing that it was in a magazine like Time, but the
18:54 statement says I believe there is a devil. And here is Satan's
18:59 agenda. First he doesn't want anyone having kids.
19:03 Why? Because he can't create.
19:06 And if they are not killed through abortion then he wants
19:11 them wounded physically, sexually, emotionally. One way
19:17 or another the legions of hell want to destroy children because
19:23 children become future adults who will pass on their junk to
19:29 another generation. So the sins of the fathers are passed from
19:34 generation to generation. Not because that's God's agenda,
19:39 but because that's the way human beings are created.
19:44 It's in our DNA. What we observe we become.
19:47 And in our first two years of life and those very impactful
19:52 nine months in the womb, what we observe, what we feel, what
19:58 we experience becomes our foundation for our life.
20:03 But we're not stuck there. We're not sentenced to that. We can
20:07 overcome that by God's grace. But doing it through denial is
20:10 not going to do it. You have to face those issues.
20:18 Eighty to 90% of our diseases are emotionally fueled.
20:25 I believe that. As a matter of fact there's a
20:28 quote on that. This is true and you know it's
20:31 so amazing. It comes out from Dr. Hans Eysenck from the
20:36 University of London who studied mind/body connection for years
20:41 and years and has made that statement and the statement is
20:46 that there are several diseases such as cancer, high blood
20:52 pressure, coronary heart disease and diabetes which are strongly
21:00 emotionally fueled. Well and again you're back to
21:03 the adrenalin, the cortisol, all those hormonal releases.
21:07 You know, it's interesting because I'm sitting here and my
21:10 mind's... I've got a thousand questions I want to ask you and
21:14 the time is getting so short. But the things that go on within
21:19 our own body and affect our organs and affect our heart
21:21 and our pulse rate and every thing else and we understand and
21:25 usually we take responsibility for it that we're generating
21:29 those thoughts or we're reacting but perhaps what you're saying,
21:34 if I'm taking this right, some of our self-destructive behavior
21:39 came from brain mapping when we were in the womb and when we
21:44 were small children, something dramatic that happened.
21:49 Or not even dramatic. Do you know science tells us that
21:54 something as simple as a forceps delivery can create feelings of
22:00 rejection and anger in the child
22:03 You know what, I have to tell you my mother said that when my
22:07 daddy first saw me he said bless your little heart, you little
22:10 cone head, your mine and I love you. I was a forceps delivery.
22:14 She said my poor little head was just nearly squished so I ought
22:18 to have a lot of anger but I don't.
22:19 You were a forceps delivery because you were a long time in
22:23 the birth canal. That's how your head got molded, not from
22:28 the forceps and the forceps was designed as a life saving
22:33 measure to get you out of that tight space in the birth canal.
22:37 So sometimes they have to be used. Unfortunately the OB
22:42 nurse in me and, been there, done that, for a long time says
22:47 we use them not judiciously for many years. And for many
22:51 years mothers were given medication that knocked them out
22:56 during those early hours that should have been mother and baby
23:03 bonding. Now we were talking about
23:06 traumatic and not so traumatic. You mentioned something before
23:10 the program that I wanted to be sure that you said because I
23:14 thought this was incredible and that was the NIH report that a
23:18 pregnant mother having a thought about smoking a
23:21 cigarette. Tell us what affect that has on the baby.
23:25 Studies have shown that women who smoke and are pregnant when
23:30 they think about lighting a cigarette, they haven't pulled
23:34 it out of their purse, haven't even taken out the lighter or
23:39 the match, they just think, I think I'll have a cigarette. The
23:44 baby's heart beat accelerates at quite a high percentage just
23:51 at the thought. Why? Because that child knows cigarette means
23:57 I'm not going to get as much oxygen and that's stress.
24:02 See because I've heard the studies before how the fetus
24:06 reacts to the smoking and the heart rate increases, but it is
24:11 amazing to me that the mother's thought is affecting the child
24:15 as if she were actually having the cigarette. That's what's
24:19 amazing. And science has proven beyond
24:21 a shadow of a doubt from the fourth month on that the
24:23 mother's thoughts become the filter for the child's thinking
24:27 from the fourth month of pregnancy on.
24:31 We've only got a couple of minutes here and it just going
24:34 way too fast. But you are going to come back. We're going to
24:38 talk about how this sets us up for the road to self-destruction
24:42 sometimes, some of these self-destructive behaviors.
24:44 But there's a way out. So let's just end this on a very upbeat
24:52 note to let people know they don't have stay like this
24:55 because we have a God who is a God of new beginnings.
24:58 Absolutely. This is true. And you know Satan may have an
25:01 agenda to destroy, but God says I have a plan for you to give
25:08 you a future and to give you hope.
25:11 And that word hope is not wishful thinking.
25:13 It's eager expectation. It is eager expectation.
25:18 I teach that too. The word hope in the Greek is so beautiful.
25:23 When you understand where Nancy and I have come from to have a
25:28 life that is worth living and a heavenly marriage it's another
25:33 world. You know, I too came from an
25:36 incredibly dysfunctional family and just really had a little bit
25:42 of a, I guess you could say I was almost commitment phobic
25:46 because of that. I was engaged eight times before my husband.
25:50 Oh my. I was a little bit of a commitment phobic, but once I
25:54 made that commitment to him and our marriage and our
25:58 relationship began to blossom, you know I've had such a
26:02 wonderful life and I'm so blessed and the Lord absolutely
26:06 cut me free from anything that was trying to bind me, any of
26:10 those thoughts. He has come that our joy may be
26:13 overflowing. And I'm saying to myself, if that's the case why
26:18 is joy so limited in so many Christians' lives yet anyone
26:22 else's. It's because we're not living his life, we're living
26:26 ours. Our time is all gone so I'm just
26:31 going to say thank you for being here, Nancy, can't wait for you
26:34 come back and Ron. Thank you so much. You're both fascinating
26:38 people, full of knowledge. But I just want to share with
26:40 you when we were talking about why don't we have the joy, you
26:44 know what I think it is. I think it's because we don't
26:48 feel lovable, we don't feel worthy, we don't feel valuable
26:52 and if you could just find out, if you had even an inkling of
26:57 how much God loves you. He says I have loved you with an
27:00 everlasting love and therefore with loving kindness I am
27:04 drawing you. And as Nancy quoted from Jeremiah 29 and
27:08 verses 11 and 12, He said I've got a plan for your life. I add
27:12 this, it's better than the one you're living. My plan is to
27:16 prosper you, to give you a hope. Eager expectation and a future.
27:21 So I want to encourage you that God does have a plan for your
27:26 life and if you could come and get to know who he is and who
27:31 you become in him, it's life changing. There's transforming
27:35 power in his love, there's transforming power of the Holy
27:39 Spirit and of his Word. So please join us next time because
27:42 we're going to be talking about some of these self-destructive
27:46 behaviors and God's way out because he is the God of new
27:50 beginnings. May the grace of our Lord Jesus
27:52 Christ, the love of the Father and the fellowship of the Holy
27:55 Spirit be with you always.