Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Jennifer Jill Schwirzer
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000312
00:30 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn.
00:31 And welcome again to "Issues and Answers."
00:33 Before we kick into our topic today,
00:36 I want to share a Bible scripture with you
00:38 that is applicable,
00:40 but it's also one of my favorites
00:41 in the entire Bible.
00:43 It's 1 Thessalonians 5:23, and here's what Paul wrote
00:49 to the church at Thessalonica.
00:51 He said, "May the God of peace himself sanctify you
00:56 through and through."
00:58 Who's gonna do the sanctification work in us?
01:00 It's God's job.
01:02 "And make your spirit, soul and body
01:05 be preserved sound and found blameless
01:09 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
01:12 You know the Bible tells us in Genesis 2:7
01:15 that God breathe His Spirit into us.
01:19 His numa is what it calls it in the Greek
01:22 and that man became a living soul or a psuche.
01:26 And today we're gonna be talking to someone
01:28 who actually is an expert in this area
01:33 or one of many experts in this area.
01:35 And we're gonna be talking about
01:37 how does a Christian approach psychology today.
01:42 And it's my great pleasure
01:44 to introduce to you Jennifer Jill Schwirzer.
01:48 And Jennifer is the Director of Michael Ministries.
01:51 That's right.
01:52 And you're also a psychotherapist
01:55 and Christian counselor.
01:56 That's right.
01:57 We are so glad that you can make it back.
01:59 Now this is not your first time on 3ABN?
02:00 No. No.
02:02 You've done some--we've worked with Don Mackintosh--
02:04 Don Mackintosh on "Health for a Lifetime."
02:07 That's right.
02:08 We've done some music and some other things in the years past.
02:11 You know, actually I was quite surprised to find out.
02:14 I knew you were an author.
02:15 You've written six books?
02:17 Several books, yeah. I've lost count.
02:19 And but I was quite surprised to learn
02:22 that you are also a recording artist
02:24 and that you've written how many original songs?
02:27 Probably over a 150 that are recorded,
02:29 but I've written far more than that,
02:32 that are just like an archive somewhere.
02:35 And this kind of came out of the fact
02:37 that you were growing up.
02:39 In your youth you were into the new age philosophy.
02:43 How did God get your attention, Jennifer?
02:45 Oh, well, that's a whole story in and of itself.
02:47 But, He just started to just put needs in my--
02:54 I started to notice needs inside of me
02:56 that weren't been fulfilled in the life that I had.
02:59 And He worked through some Christians,
03:01 witnessing to me and sort of kindled the fire
03:05 and then I ended up--
03:06 I ended up really trying Christianity as an option.
03:09 I wasn't sure it was the truth, but I tried it or taste and see
03:13 that the Lord is good. Amen.
03:14 And I tasted and I found that it was the truth,
03:17 so that's the natural version. Okay.
03:20 And then you came-- once you became a Christian,
03:22 how did you become an Adventist?
03:25 Oh, it was studying the Bible,
03:27 because I found that the Adventist message
03:29 was based on scripture
03:31 and that it answered the big questions
03:34 that I'd always had even before I was a Christian.
03:36 Were do we go when we die? What is our purpose in life?
03:39 Things like that were answered from the Bible
03:43 and the Adventist message
03:44 did a really good job of organizing that information.
03:47 I just found that it had the best system of biblical theology
03:51 anywhere that I could find.
03:53 So I embraced it. The Lord led me to it.
03:56 And I knew it was truth, because I wanted the truth
03:58 and He brought it to me. Amen.
04:01 Now you have a master's degree in psychotherapy.
04:05 Right. You're a Christian counselor.
04:07 So tell us--you know we started today I mentioned Genesis 2:7.
04:11 How God breathe the spirit into man,
04:14 His spirit and man became a living soul.
04:17 I know that the word soul in the Greek is psuche.
04:20 Define for us the word psychology?
04:23 Well, I'm not afraid of the word psychology.
04:25 We're gonna be grappling during this show
04:29 with how a Christian should approach psychology.
04:32 And I just want to say straight out
04:33 that I'm not afraid of the word psychology
04:35 because I believe there's a biblical psychology.
04:39 The word "psych" or that you know,
04:41 we get psychology from psych is from the Greek psuche.
04:45 And psuche simply means the immaterial part of man.
04:49 And psuche is the only word that is translated
04:52 into soul in the New Testament.
04:54 So when we see the word soul,
04:56 we know that it's talking about the psuche
04:58 or the immaterial part of man.
04:59 So psychology is simply the study of the soul really.
05:04 That part of us that is
05:06 not really something we can see concretely
05:09 or perceived through our senses, but is nonetheless very real.
05:12 So like our thoughts what makes us up
05:16 or what makes our character.
05:19 The components that you can't say, okay,
05:22 this is like this piece of paper that you can cut it
05:25 and see it and manipulate it,
05:27 but it's something that is invisible,
05:30 but it's very much a part of us.
05:31 But it's still very real.
05:32 And like the scripture that you've read indicates
05:36 the various dimensions of human nature are interconnected.
05:40 Man is holistic by the Biblical definition of man.
05:44 So we have spirit, soul and body.
05:47 So the soul lives in the context of the body.
05:50 There is no evidence in scripture
05:52 that the soul lives outside of the context of the body.
05:55 But the way I kind of see it is that
05:58 we have the spiritual experience when we come to Jesus--
06:02 you know had a body all along,
06:04 but the work of character development
06:07 is really kind of soul development.
06:09 So I've come to conceptualize the soul as the character
06:13 and that's the part of us that needs development
06:15 and psychology are purports to have a theory and a method
06:21 of developing the soul really is what it is.
06:24 So without the breath of life--
06:27 if you remove the breathe of life from man,
06:29 he can't have body and soul--
06:31 I mean there is no body and soul.
06:33 Without the breathe of life he's just the body
06:36 because the breathe of life and the body,
06:38 God developed the soul. That's right.
06:40 We became a living being, a soul.
06:42 That's right. Okay.
06:43 I want to make sure we stayed on track here.
06:45 Now there is--I know that my husband like you
06:49 he has master's degree in psychology.
06:51 He was studying for his doctoral degree.
06:54 When I first met him
06:57 I found that his thinking was a little skewed.
07:02 He had been a nominal Christian when he was studying psychology
07:05 and he got really skewed toward
07:08 what I think of as a flawed system in psychology
07:11 and let's talk about that for a moment.
07:13 What do you think of as of the current practice of psychology
07:17 if you were to take the element
07:19 of being a Christian out of there?
07:21 What's the flaw within that system?
07:24 Well, the basic premise of the whole profession of psychology
07:28 is that man can solve his own problems.
07:31 And the Bible-- so I don't need to, you know,
07:32 really like go after the different theorists
07:35 and point out what's wrong in detail
07:37 because that's a flawed premise.
07:38 So when you start with a flawed premise,
07:40 you come to a flawed conclusion.
07:43 The Bible teaches that when man sinned,
07:45 he created a god size problem
07:48 that man cannot solve his own problems
07:50 that only God can solve the problems of man.
07:53 So because, you know, secular psychology
07:56 begins with that premise,
07:57 we can't possibly come to a correct conclusion.
08:00 But that doesn't mean that some of the theorists
08:03 and that have been the great masters
08:05 of the field of psychology having said some very insightful
08:09 and even true things.
08:10 And so I'm equally guarded against
08:13 over demonizing psychology,
08:15 because I don't want to throw the baby out
08:17 with the bathwater.
08:18 And there are some babies,
08:20 there are some nuggets of truth even in secular theories.
08:25 So you know, Jennifer, I bet you're gonna come to
08:27 or say the same thing that I've noticed.
08:30 When I look at some age type seminars that are out there
08:35 or you hear some things from psychology,
08:38 I can sit and say,
08:39 you know, that principle is directly from the Bible,
08:42 they've just twisted it a little.
08:43 Oh, that principle from the Bible.
08:45 So has that been your experience that--
08:46 That has totally been my experience.
08:48 And let me just say this that I have pursued
08:51 this counseling thing as a later in life career.
08:54 I was always involved in music ministry
08:56 and sort of like you teaching
08:58 and preaching the word and so forth.
09:00 I got into the counseling because I really felt like
09:03 God was leading me in that direction.
09:05 And I went through a secular master's program
09:07 and I went in with the premise
09:10 that the Bible has the most accurate
09:13 and comprehensive and affective theory in method of psychology
09:17 that can be found anywhere under the sun.
09:19 And after three years of studying the theories
09:22 of you know, Freud and Adler
09:25 and Rogers and Skinner etcetera, etcetera.
09:27 There are over 300 different theorists
09:30 that have popularize their theories
09:32 and after three years of studying those things nonstop,
09:35 I still believed that the Bible contained
09:39 the most accurate, the most comprehensive
09:42 and the most effective theory in method of psychology
09:45 that can be found anywhere under the sun.
09:46 In other words I went in with that premise
09:48 and I came out with the premise.
09:50 It only really enforced for being--
09:53 because I had such grounding in scripture when I went in,
09:56 it only reinforced for me what I already believed.
09:59 But someone going in without that foundation
10:02 could be affected and would be affected
10:04 and would begin to see things
10:06 through the lens of those theorists
10:07 and we have to remember that they are not,
10:09 you know, people that profess faith in God.
10:12 You know, there's so many these different
10:14 behavioralism and different things.
10:16 let's talk about some of those because I do know that
10:20 when I'm talking with someone the advice that I give
10:23 is if you're going to go to a counselor
10:25 and I believe in that, seek a Christian counselor.
10:29 Seek someone who has good knowledge of the Bible.
10:32 Of the word.
10:34 And of the word, so that you're not going
10:35 to be getting off as you said.
10:37 I had a friend whose daughter-in-law
10:40 had developed a drug problem.
10:43 And when she went through a number of programs
10:46 what they kept teaching her was it's all about
10:50 self, self, self and you've got to--
10:54 Well, but it was more than self-esteem,
10:56 it was self fulfillment, it was self--
10:59 Self-actualizing is the word I'm looking for.
11:01 That's a part of the Varangians school of thought
11:05 and that's considered the third force in psychology.
11:08 There are four forces that have developed
11:10 since psychology began in the mid 1800s
11:13 and the third kind of phase of psychology
11:15 is humanistic psychology and Carl Rogers
11:18 was sort of the figure head of that moment.
11:20 And what they teach us that we have within us the ability to
11:24 what he calls self-actualizer or fulfill our potential.
11:27 And it's like a seed within us that just needs to be
11:30 allowed to grow and we have all the healing power
11:33 and the ability to make ourselves right
11:35 within ourselves, so that's humanism.
11:37 And all they taught in this, I mean, she came out--
11:41 she went in other than having develop this drug problem.
11:45 She went in fairly balanced person
11:49 and she came out being one that was so focused on self
11:54 and everything she was taught, take care of yourself first,
11:57 do this first, do that first.
11:59 And she really then started getting worse and worse
12:04 and worse and-- Sometimes it can make--
12:07 psychology can make you worse instead of better.
12:08 And it was unbelievable.
12:10 But I have to say that, you know,
12:12 if you go in as a Christian and you see a secular therapist,
12:17 they are mandated by the codes of ethics
12:19 to respect your religion
12:20 and not to try to reform your thinking.
12:23 I'm not saying that always happens
12:25 but at least the ethics code say
12:27 that they need to respect your religious beliefs.
12:30 But it's true that psychology
12:31 can sometimes do more harm than good.
12:33 And so if we have Christian belief system,
12:36 we need to put ourselves in a context
12:38 where that will be supportive.
12:39 So how would you take that
12:40 and compare it to what the Bible would say though?
12:43 Take the idea of self-actualizing.
12:46 Well, obviously the Bible teaches that man is depraved
12:50 and that we do not have the ability to save ourselves.
12:53 That there is no innate goodness within us
12:55 that just needs to be allowed to grow
12:57 and actualize that the only goodness within us
13:01 is that which is brought in from the outside
13:04 from the divine source via the Holy Spirit.
13:06 So Christ within us.
13:07 Colossians 1:27 our only hope of glory and the Holy Spirit
13:11 and the transforming power of the word is how?
13:14 But there is--when we have that God does expect us to cooperate
13:18 with Him as we surrender to Him.
13:20 There is a development process.
13:22 Character development is the call of the Christian
13:25 and you can say that, that is true psychology
13:28 is character development
13:29 as the person begins to walk with Christ,
13:31 they experience change
13:33 and the whole point of psychology,
13:35 of secular psychology
13:36 is to bring about change in people's lives.
13:38 You see a therapist so that you can undergo change.
13:41 Well, there's nothing--that, that's certainly is something
13:45 that God brings about in our lives
13:47 and so that's part of Christian psychology as well.
13:49 However Biblical psychology defines the change,
13:52 the standard, the goal toward which we strive more accurately
13:57 than secular psychology does I feel.
13:59 And there's so much disagreement within secular psychology
14:02 as to how we need to change?
14:03 So the Bible is very plain, we need to become like Jesus.
14:07 So what are some of the other forces in psychology?
14:10 And let's compare secular psychology
14:12 to what the Bible says.
14:13 One of the things that really came out from me is that
14:15 these men did have insights.
14:18 But that they gain these insights
14:20 and I even think some of them from the scriptures
14:22 because not a few of them--
14:25 I think Roger did study to be a minister.
14:27 And I know Freud was-- he was a Jewish man.
14:30 He was well acquainted with scriptures.
14:31 So what I see is that they,
14:34 they apparently took a parts of truth
14:37 and they changed it slightly and then put their name on it.
14:40 So there is still some truth there
14:42 which is why the psychology is so powerful.
14:46 Pure lies are not powerful.
14:48 Lies mingle with truth are powerful.
14:51 So just to give a brief overview of the four forces
14:54 within psychology starting with Freud
14:57 and the whole school of psychoanalysis.
14:59 Just to give you an example of what was right about
15:02 what he said versus what was wrong about it
15:04 because you see the word affirms everything
15:06 that's right about psychology
15:08 and it corrects everything that's wrong about it
15:10 and I love that about the word.
15:11 I can go there and I can have confidence
15:13 that God will sort out the issues for me.
15:15 You know, so what was right about Freud, you know,
15:18 he brought forth the idea of the unconscious mind.
15:21 In a climate within that society
15:24 in which that was not generally acknowledged.
15:26 It was an environment of rationalism and positivism
15:29 and if you know anything about those systems of thought,
15:32 it's basically that the man is the sum total
15:34 of his rational thoughts.
15:36 There was no acknowledgement that we had unconscious motives
15:40 that drew our behaviors.
15:41 And in the midst of that environment Freud said,
15:44 there is such a thing as the unconscious.
15:45 Now that's true, isn't it? Amen.
15:47 I mean, the Bible supports the notion
15:49 that man has an unconscious.
15:51 Jeremiah said the heart is deceitful above all things
15:54 and desperately wicked.
15:55 Who can know it?
15:56 That's a rhetorical question implying
15:58 that we can't know our own hearts
15:59 apart from the aid of the Holy Spirit.
16:02 And you know the Psalm, it says,
16:04 "Search me, O God, and know my heart,
16:06 try me, and know my thoughts."
16:07 God has to do the searching in the triumph
16:09 because we don't even know ourselves.
16:11 So the idea of us having an unconscious mind
16:14 that we are basically unaware off is a biblical idea.
16:19 But Freud took it to an extent that was not biblical.
16:22 He had a whole system worked out with the id
16:25 which is sort of the animal within and the super-ego
16:28 which is kind of like the conscience but little different.
16:30 And then the ego which sort of mediates
16:32 between the id and the super-ego
16:34 and he had this whole kind of elaborate system
16:37 that was very similar to biblical teaching,
16:39 but different enough to not be biblical,
16:42 so I find that fascinating.
16:43 It is fascinating.
16:45 I think, what you said is he did take a lot of good
16:48 from the Bible, but then he twisted this--
16:50 twisted it to his own destruction.
16:52 And then behaviouralism came along after that
16:54 and probably the most prominent behavioral theorist
16:57 would be B.F. Skinner.
16:59 And behaviouralism was right in that id,
17:02 side of the fact that human beings are very strongly
17:05 influenced by their environment.
17:07 Human beings are imitative creatures.
17:09 We see our role models and we begin to imitate
17:12 that behavior and you can really see that among young people.
17:14 And when they, you know, when they role model after
17:16 certain athletes or rock stars, how it impacts their behavior.
17:20 So there was a lot that was true about behaviouralism.
17:24 Again that's a scriptural principle of 2 Corinthians 3:18
17:27 says, you know, "We become who we behold."
17:30 That's right. That's right.
17:31 But they took us so far as to say
17:33 that man did not have a freewill.
17:35 We are merely organisms that respond to our environment
17:38 and that goes beyond what the Bible teaches
17:40 because the Bible says that we have a choice,
17:43 "Choose ye this day whom you will serve."
17:45 God wouldn't tell us to choose if He didn't give us the choice.
17:48 So they took it too far.
17:50 And really another thing that I see, Shelley,
17:51 is that these theorists would bounce against each other,
17:54 they would pendulum swing.
17:56 One of them would say this
17:57 and then the other would come along and say,
17:59 no this and they continue to swing back and forth,
18:01 but they never get that balance
18:02 because they're not founding their theories
18:04 on the word of God.
18:05 Isn't that something? That is something.
18:07 The third force would be humanism.
18:09 When we talked about that a few minutes ago
18:11 and is--as wrong as humanism is there are some things
18:15 that were right about Roger's teaching.
18:16 For instance he said,
18:18 that if the therapist would just bestow upon the client
18:23 unconditional positive regard then the client
18:26 would start to grow and self-actualize.
18:29 Well, there's an element of truth to that,
18:30 that idea of unconditional acceptance
18:33 in love is found in the scriptures.
18:35 God loves us as we are.
18:37 He doesn't love our sin, but He loves the sinner.
18:39 And then in the context of that love
18:41 the sinner can experience kind of a disarming
18:44 that can enable him to change.
18:46 And I think about Mark 12:31
18:47 where second most important scripture
18:50 after the first being are-- let me say this right,
18:54 the second most important law of God, the first being
18:57 " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul,
18:59 mind and strength" in Mark 12:30.
19:01 The second was to "Love your neighbor as yourself."
19:04 So there's has to be a healthy regard for self.
19:09 Or you're not going to have a healthy psuche.
19:11 That's true. That's true.
19:13 So there's a self worth that is part of good, you know,
19:16 good development of character and that is something
19:20 that the Bible has--Bible teachings has provided for.
19:23 You know, God says that we should account ourselves
19:25 valuable because of the price that He has put on us.
19:28 You know, amen.
19:30 This is all right--Jennifer, one thing that the Lord really
19:33 impressed upon me was wherever I go to tell people
19:36 that you know one of my favorite--
19:38 I guess my pet peeve is when people say,
19:40 oh, I'm so unworthy. I'm so unworthy.
19:43 And I tell them you're worth nothing less than the price
19:47 that God paid for you with the blood
19:49 of His own Son, Jesus Christ.
19:52 So to say we're undeserving is true.
19:55 There's nothing that we can do to deserve His love.
19:58 We can't earn it. That's right.
19:59 But to say that we're worthless
20:01 is kind of almost a slap in the face.
20:03 And I mean, I know that there's people assigned different values
20:06 to different words, but that word unworthy.
20:09 God thinks that we are worth quite a lot.
20:11 And when the believer begins to grasp
20:14 that they are accepted and loved and valued by God,
20:18 then they can start to change it.
20:19 So Roger's I think borrowed that concept of unconditional love
20:23 from the scriptures and then changed it little bit
20:26 and put his name on it and marked it as his theory.
20:29 Then the fourth force in psychology
20:32 and some people argue that this isn't really the fourth force,
20:36 but there's a lot of movements within the field
20:38 to get this to be the fourth force is multiculturalism
20:41 and that's all about accepting people
20:44 in the context of diversity.
20:46 Accepting that my culture is different than your culture
20:49 and I can't impose my cultural values on you
20:52 and you can't impose yours on me.
20:54 And that's good to a point because God calls every nation,
20:58 kindred, tongue, and people.
20:59 God is the God of diversity.
21:01 But there's a fatal flaw in that theory as well
21:05 and that is that it's based on the concept of relativism.
21:09 That there really is no absolute standard of right and wrong.
21:13 There is no absolute standard of truth.
21:16 Your truth is for you and it is truth to you.
21:19 Your own subjective world determines what is true for you.
21:22 My subjective world determines what is true and right for me
21:25 and nobody has the right to impose an external value
21:29 upon someone that isn't biblical.
21:31 God says that there is a transcendent, eternal,
21:35 moral code and a standard of truth
21:38 that He does indeed impose upon us.
21:40 So there's good and bad.
21:41 And we know there is such a thing as absolute truth
21:44 and His name is Jesus Christ.
21:45 He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life."
21:48 Now what about this what they called talk therapy?
21:54 How do you feel about that and does that lineup with the Bible?
21:57 Oh, I better like it
21:58 because I do it on a regular basis these days.
22:01 But I really did kind of struggle with that.
22:02 You know the whole notion of paying someone to listen to you
22:06 and then sort out your problems,
22:08 kind of paying someone to care about you in a way.
22:10 It sort of reared up against that,
22:12 but then I ended up in the field.
22:14 So I have had to really examine it
22:17 and I have to say that as I have compared
22:19 the system of counseling that is in place today
22:23 where you actually pay a fee to a therapist
22:25 and you spend an hour with them talking about your issues.
22:29 As I compared that model with the scriptures
22:31 I don't see that exactly mandated in the scriptures,
22:34 but I don't think that because it's not mandated
22:36 in the scriptures in that format means it's wrong.
22:39 I think we need to look at the essence of it
22:41 and basically what the field of psychology has discovered
22:44 is that talk is very therapeutic,
22:46 because talk therapy does produce an outcome.
22:49 It's constantly researched
22:50 to try to figure out of talk therapy works
22:53 and it has to be because the insurance companies
22:55 won't cover it anymore if it doesn't actually works.
22:57 So they have to now prove that it works
22:59 and in fact it does work.
23:01 So for whatever reason talk is very healing,
23:05 very therapeutic and we can see this in the scriptures.
23:10 We're told in Proverbs that "Counsel in the heart of man
23:13 is like deep water; but a man of understanding will draw it out."
23:17 There are some people and you're talking about your husband
23:19 a little while ago and I said, he has the gift of counseling
23:21 because I could just tell he's the kind of guy
23:23 that can intuit his way through a relationship
23:26 and he can pullout the central issues in a person's life
23:29 just almost in a magical way
23:31 and that is the gift of counseling.
23:33 And I want to just correct you on one thing about
23:35 using the word magic because I do really believe
23:37 that the closer he has become--
23:39 I mean he's always had this gift
23:40 but the closer he's become to the Lord
23:43 and the more he relies on Holy Spirit,
23:45 it really is that intuit deepness,
23:47 discernment gift that God gives him
23:49 and I really believe it's the Holy Spirit working through him,
23:53 but it is astonishing to watch
23:56 because when you ask whether or not talk therapy
23:59 you can watch someone he's talking with and they--
24:02 they're not trying--they are not trying to fool him,
24:06 they're stating something the way they believe it
24:08 and then as he listens, when he can just get to the core
24:11 and you will see them go, what?
24:14 And all of sudden they're thinking
24:15 and they're sitting there, that's exactly what's going on.
24:18 That's exactly what I'm thinking.
24:20 I just hadn't verbalized it.
24:22 So sometimes there's things that we don't understand about--
24:26 About ourselves and someone from the outside
24:28 can see the issues more clearly.
24:30 You know, I really respect that gift that he has
24:32 and I've seen since I've been in counseling.
24:35 I've just kind of feel my way through the sessions.
24:37 I mean, I have three years of training
24:38 and they try to make it all organized
24:40 and layout a format for you.
24:42 What supposed to happen in a counseling session
24:44 and really when it comes right down to it,
24:46 it's all intuition and just kind of feeling your way.
24:49 I mean, you have certain skills that you develop,
24:51 but how you apply those skills in the moment is all about rapid
24:54 what they call rapid cognition.
24:56 You have to know what to do in the moment
24:58 and that's something that God has given
24:59 certain people a gift for, so I'm really enthused about that.
25:03 But let's look at some other scriptures
25:05 that talk about counseling.
25:07 Another Proverbs says,
25:08 "Where there is no counsel, the people will fall,
25:10 but in the multitude of counselors there is safety."
25:13 So the whole notion of counseling is very biblical.
25:16 Proverbs 24:6 says, "By wise counsel you wage your own war
25:22 and in a multitude of counselors there is safety."
25:24 And that one kind of struck me 'cause life can be real battle.
25:27 You know, what general would go into a war without some counsel,
25:30 without some help from people on the outside
25:34 that can give him appropriate advice.
25:36 And then I love this verse in Acts 20:31.
25:40 It says that Paul-- it's talking about Paul
25:43 and he says that-- he says,
25:45 "Remember that for three years
25:47 I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears."
25:51 That is a counselor. He is laboring with people.
25:56 He's engaging with them.
25:57 He's getting into their stuff and He's doing it night and day
26:01 for three years long with tears.
26:03 Often times in a counseling session I'll tear up
26:06 when I hear the things that people share with me
26:08 and we'll get to a crucial point
26:10 and it gets very emotional and some people have the ability
26:13 to really connect with people on that level.
26:15 So what you're saying though then if I'm--
26:18 What the Bible is saying in talk therapy
26:21 is very similar to discipleship?
26:23 That's right. That's right.
26:24 So that's where we're headed is that talk therapy is--
26:27 especially if you're going to a Christian therapist
26:31 is very similar to discipleship.
26:33 It is discipleship in many respects.
26:35 It isn't all about just sympathizing with the person
26:38 and oh, you know, you have a boo-boo and it hurts.
26:41 It's that.
26:42 It's compassion and tenderness and the ability to connect
26:45 and empathize with people,
26:46 but it's also this ability to confront people on their issues
26:50 where they need confrontation.
26:52 That word Paul says, "I did not cease to warn everyone."
26:56 That word is Nouthesia, which is to put into mind.
27:00 Putting into someone's mind something
27:02 that's not already there,
27:03 you're actually kind of restructuring the brain.
27:05 So the bottom line-- we're just nearly out of time
27:07 and I can't believe how fast this time goes.
27:09 But the bottom line is that
27:12 there are some good things about psychology.
27:16 It isn't totally wrong with the Bible,
27:19 but we want to be careful about the secular psychologist.
27:23 We want to--if you're going to go to a psychologist
27:26 you got be going to a Christian psychologist, I would say.
27:28 And even then draw your sword and be good burin
27:31 and bring home what you learn.
27:34 Jennifer, thank you so much-- It's been a pleasure.
27:36 I cannot believe it has gone by so rapidly.
27:38 And I just want to encourage each one of you as she said,
27:43 be a burin, get into the word and check out any advice
27:46 that anyone gives you.
27:48 Now may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,
27:50 the love of the Father
27:52 and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit
27:53 be with you today and always.