Participants: J.D. Quinn (Host), Gordon and Waveney Martinborough
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000288
00:29 Welcome to Issues and Answers. My name is J.D. Quinn. I just
00:35 welcome each one of you with us today. We are just thankful for
00:38 this wonderful day that God has created.
00:40 We always like to start the pro- gram out with a scripture, so
00:46 I want to go to 1 John 4:8. It says in the New King James
00:51 Version, "He who does not love does not know God,
00:54 for God is love. " Today we've got a topic that sometimes is
01:00 confusing: How to differentiate between true love and Satan's
01:06 counterfeit, which is lust. We have a couple here from Orlando,
01:11 Florida who are going to intro- duce us to how to differentiate
01:15 between these two and this is Gordon and Waveny Martin-Burl.
01:19 They are from Orlando, Florida and we welcome you to Issues
01:23 and answers today. This is going to be a fun time. Before
01:27 we get started with our topic thought, tell us a little bit
01:30 about yourselves. Where did you meet? When? What's
01:34 going on in your life?
01:37 Well, the young Gordon: We have been married, Waveny and I, for
01:44 more than 44 years. That's right.. We are
01:50 both from Guyana, South America. We have enjoyed our lives
01:55 together. We have three grown children, Esther, Samuel and
02:01 Joan. For more than 40 years I have been in ministry as a
02:06 minister of the Seventh-day Adventist church. I have served
02:11 in a variety of fields: Wales as pastor, departmental director
02:16 in administration at the conference level, the union
02:20 level and the division level. But through it all there have
02:25 been two passions for me. One is family ministry and the other
02:30 is evangelism and those have stayed with me.
02:34 This is my wife, Waveny. She will tell you something more.
02:37 about herself. When you said "Waveny" I've never heard that
02:40 name before. Wave nee. As we we're talking earlier, she says
02:44 the way to remember it is the wave and, then of course, the
02:47 knee. So that's the way I have put it together. It's a
02:50 wonderful name. I've never heard it before, Waveny.
02:54 So tell us about yourself Waveny.
02:56 Okay. I am Waveny and my pro- fession is education. I'm an
03:02 educator. Actually I have taught in the different levels:
03:08 That's preschool, elementary, school, high school and then
03:13 college which is now our university. For the past 10
03:18 years, however, I have worked at the Interamerican Division
03:22 as the first Women's Ministries Director for that division.
03:27 I also worked as director for Family Ministry. So we have
03:32 been working together for the past 10 years.
03:34 We have recently retired.
03:39 Recently retired, "retired" in quotes.
03:40 Yes, yes. You're probably busier now than ever before.
03:44 I love your laugh. It is absolutely fantastic.
03:47 So now, I have looked at a couple of your books and they
03:50 they're absolutely fantastic. You spent so many hours putting
03:54 this all together. What brought this love; now we're talking
03:57 about family relationships and, you know, the different
04:01 aspects of it. How did all that happen?
04:04 Well, my interest in family started as a pastor, counseling
04:09 young people preparing for marrying, and it dawned upon me
04:12 that what we are giving to these young people, everybody
04:16 needs. So we got interested in family ministry and then because
04:20 of my love for evangelism, I thought why not bring this into
04:25 evangelism. We used to do Family as a little nugget before
04:30 the sermon. One day a young pastor, Pastor Redver Stillbert
04:36 of Grenada challenged me. He said, Elder you
04:38 are talking two times. why not
04:40 talk one time? Why not put these two things together and
04:44 make one? I told him, that can't be done. But within a few
04:48 weeks the Lord showed me how it could be done. Since then we
04:53 have been developing. Today it is perfected. It is being used
04:57 in the various countries of the world, in the Philippines, in
05:03 countries in Europe, in Latin America. We have just been
05:08 requested to get permission that some of this material be
05:13 translated for China and Japan to be used in those countries
05:16 where it is difficult to start with the gospel, but we can
05:20 start with the family. You will be happy to know that folk can
05:30 access what we have on our web site: www. happyfamilybsi. com
05:40 and our toll free number is 800-291-3060.
05:48 Amen, Amen. Well let's get... I know that there are seven
05:53 steps that y'all have put together. Is it love, is it
05:57 the real thing or is it fake? Is there a counterfeit and I am
06:00 assuming that we've got love on one hand and we have lust on the
06:04 other. Why don't you take us through these seven steps.
06:07 Do you want to start?
06:09 Yes, we'll be happy to do that. The first contrast, contrast #1
06:15 is that lust is a changeable feeling while love is an
06:22 enduring principle. That's a big difference.
06:25 You see, our feelings change. This morning I wake up, I feel
06:30 good, I kiss her. The more I wake up, I feel bad, I kick her.
06:35 And that is how many people behave and that is because the
06:40 relationship is based on the counterfeit. The counterfeit
06:44 deals with feelings only. Of course, love has feelings, but
06:48 love is more than a feeling. Love is a principle and the
06:52 principle does not change. In 1 Corinthians 13 it says: Love
06:58 never fails, and that is the first difference.
07:02 All right, now we go to the second contrast and that says
07:11 "Passion is blind, but love sees and examines. In Roman
07:19 literature, J.D., the Romans had many gods and the god of love
07:26 was Cupid. Cupid was a little boy with a bow and arrow, a
07:34 blindfolded boy, bow and arrow, going around shooting arrows at
07:39 individuals. Anyone who was shot, the first person that one
07:45 person met, he fell in love with that individual. Now, is that
07:51 love? Of course not; that can't be love. You see love sees
07:57 and examines and that is what is happening to many of our
08:03 young people today. They say well I love this individual and
08:08 the parents say, well you know this guy, John, is very lazy.
08:13 Well, I don't see that. But then afterwards they get married,
08:18 then she realizes that he is lazy and she cannot stand it
08:24 and so they separate and they divorce. But love sees, love
08:30 examines. So we need to take time to examine.
08:35 Christ had a question for us: He says, Having eyes do you not
08:41 see? In other words, use those eyes that you have to examine
08:46 Then I would assume that it's very important, as the kids of
08:50 today's world are getting married, that they do need to
08:53 seek advice from their parents and from, say, their pastor and
08:59 their friends. Because, you know, perhaps they can see
09:02 something that they cannot see. And, you know, I think that
09:08 Mrs. White says that we need to pray four times harder than we
09:12 would ordinarily do before we found that mate that we were
09:16 thinking about spending our life with. You know, the second most
09:19 important decision that we will every make is who we are going
09:22 to spend our life with. Of course, the first important
09:24 decision that we make is to serve Jesus Christ as our
09:27 Savior. Yes.
09:28 All right. The third contrast between love and lust is that
09:36 lust is obsessed with the externals, while love is
09:42 concerned is concerned with the internal. Let's explain what we
09:49 mean by these two terms. When we speak of externals, we're
09:53 talking of the figure, the fashion, the sex appeal.
09:56 And when we think of the internals, we are talking of
09:59 personality. We are taking of habits. We are taking of
10:02 character. We are talking of what is really inside, who the
10:09 person really is. This is very important. Of course, love
10:13 admires the externals. That is how we get connected to
10:18 somebody anyhow in the first place. It's the externals. But
10:23 love does not stop there. Love moves from the external to the
10:28 internal and it starts to examine personality, character,
10:32 the habits of the individual, because those are the things
10:37 that will keep the marriage together as we face the future.
10:42 If you remember when the prophet Samuel was looking for the
10:47 second king of Israel, he went to the home of Jesse. Remember
10:53 that story? Then he saw the first son, Eliab, he said
10:57 that's the king, you know. He looked like a king; he had the
11:02 bearing of the king. The Lord said, No, no. He said, Man looks
11:07 on the outer appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.
11:14 That's found in 1 Samuel 16:7. So the Lord took the youngest
11:19 brother, the shepherd boy, who didn't look like a king, but he
11:25 had the heart of a king. And what this point is saying is
11:30 that like the Lord, we need to move beyond the externals and
11:35 look at the internal and see who the person really is, because
11:40 lust focuses only on the externals; love is
11:44 concerned with the internals.
11:46 So I would assume that time plays an important factor here.
11:53 Maybe six months might not cut it. Exactly, Exactly. When
11:57 we're dating, you know, you always show up, you smell good
12:01 you look good, you know, and you know, lots of times in
12:05 relationships you don't see each other but once every weekend
12:12 but you need to spend some time, maybe two years with lots of
12:17 prayer, with lots of spiritual advice, you know, because this
12:22 is very, very important, especially with statistics the
12:25 way they are today, that 50% of our marriages are failing.
12:28 Well, I mean, something's going wrong out there. So, yes.
12:32 Well, I certainly agree with that; looking through spiritual
12:37 eyes, looking at the internal. Yes. What's the next step?
12:42 Okay, let's go to contrast #4. It says, Passion is promiscuous,
12:49 but love is pure. You look around in our world today and
12:55 you can see it is there. You see love respects God's seventh
13:01 commandment that says, Thou shalt not commit adultery.
13:05 So, when tempted with premarital sex, love says wait until we get
13:15 married. When tempted with extramarital sex, love also says
13:23 No, I am already married. So when we go back to scripture,
13:32 we need to look at the life of Joseph as a young man.
13:37 Remember, he was tempted by a beautiful and a powerful woman.
13:44 Day after day, scripture tells us, she plagued him until
13:51 eventually he said, Look, how can I do this great wickedness
13:55 and sin against God? And so he did not, even though he suffered
14:00 for it after. So that is what we need to say like Joseph, How can
14:04 I do such wickedness and sin against God?
14:08 Well, purity is so important in our lives and, I mean, but many
14:14 times whenever you're young you're not mature enough to
14:18 really differentiate between the two. You know, just the way
14:21 that we're are put together with all of the different
14:25 outside influences that we ex- perience today with TV, with all
14:29 the different ads and everything and peer pressure.
14:35 I saw something the other day that was absolutely fantastic.
14:39 The guy was 94 years old and somebody walked up to him and
14:43 said, What's the best thing about being 94 years old?
14:47 And the old man said, there's no peer pressure. I just thought
14:51 that was so neat. So that is one of the advantages of living to
14:57 be 94, because all your peers have disappeared.
15:00 Bless his little heart, you know, but that was great.
15:02 What's #5?
15:06 Okay. The fifth contrast, and this is crucial, not only
15:12 before marrying but after marrying. It says that lust is
15:18 self-centered while love is self-sacrificing. And that's
15:25 where the rubber hits the road. Lust asks the question all the
15:33 time: What do I want. What do I want. Lust's favorite question,
15:40 lust's favorite pronoun is "I". What do I want and usually I
15:47 want it now. Love has a differ- ent pronoun. Love says, What
15:53 do you want? Because love is putting what you want more above
16:02 what I want. 1 Corinthians 13:5 says, Love does not seek its
16:10 own. It is not self-centered. This is important because:
16:18 Why do marriages break up? Why do we fight and quarrel and
16:24 have this tug-of-war? We do this whether in marriage or even
16:31 outside of marriage because of self. The root of every marital
16:37 problem and dating is, regard- less of what we are fighting
16:42 over, the root of the problem is self-first, is what I want. So
16:49 the solution to almost every marital conflict is spouse
16:55 first, and that's the big difference between the genuine
16:59 and the counterfeit. The counterfeit is self-centered,
17:05 the genuine is other centered; just like Jesus was.
17:11 So, how do the parents teach the child to be subservient
17:18 to be giving?
17:22 Well, first of all by example. Because kids model what they see
17:26 in the lives of their parents. Somebody said that the great
17:31 problem is not juvenile delinquency; it's parental
17:34 delinquency. Because the kids are modeling what they see in
17:39 their homes. So as adults we need to model this self
17:44 sacrificing spirit in order that we may set an example for our
17:49 young people.
17:50 Yes, that just makes sense, you know. But that's easier said
17:53 than done. Number one you know, just because today it seems like
17:58 both parents are working and you know that's an issue right
18:02 there. What is your take on that?
18:05 I don't think that the big issue is if just one or two parents
18:10 that are working, but the crucial thing is are we spending
18:16 time together? Are we united in what we are doing in our
18:21 goals for ourselves and for our homes and for our families. You
18:25 can have one parent only working and still there is a lot of
18:29 conflict and problems in the home. So the principles of
18:34 family living need to be mastered in order that we can
18:39 model for our children and enjoy the family ourselves.
18:44 Yes. So I would assume that probably this has to be taught
18:49 some place because a lot of those cords need to be cut from
18:53 the previous generation. So I think that this is one reason
18:57 why it is so important that we have topics like this and
19:00 that we do bring this into the church, you know, because
19:04 there's lots of parents out there that their home might
19:07 have been dysfunctional and they don't like... because,
19:10 you know, it's monkey see, monkey do, they don't
19:13 particularly like their previous environment and so it has to be
19:17 changed some place. But I can certainly see, you know, exactly
19:21 what you're saying is that, you know, that lust is self-serving
19:25 and that love is self- sacrificing, and so that has
19:30 to be brought up and that is taught. Do you have another
19:34 word on that?
19:35 No, we can move on. Our time is running out
19:38 and we have two more points
19:39 Okay, the sixth contrast says passion operates by chance, love
19:47 by Divine design. In other words, the philosophy of passion
19:56 or lust is, Que sera sera. What ever will be will be. But love's
20:04 philosophy is not that. Love's philosophy says, God has a
20:08 plan for your life and so you need to ask Him to show you
20:13 that plan. And believe you me, that's what I did, for sure. I
20:17 did ask God to show me the plan that he has for my life, the one
20:22 to whom I should get married, what my job should be, etc, etc.
20:27 In the Bible, there is also an example of Isaac and Rebekah,
20:32 remember the story? Abraham wanted a wife for his son Isaac.
20:36 He sent his servant. His servant went to Haran, and before he did
20:43 anything else, he prayed and asked God to show him and God
20:47 did reveal to him and here Rebekah came forward. She
20:53 did what was necessary and, of course, they were married.
20:59 So we have Isaac and Rebekah. Jeremiah 29:11 endorses it.
21:06 It says, For I know the plans that I have for you. That was
21:12 God talking. So he knows the plans. Let's ask him to show
21:18 us those plans.
21:19 Okay, our final contrast is that lust comes from Satan and
21:25 love comes from God. That's the big difference. They have
21:31 two sources. Satan manifests this counterfeit and Satan has
21:37 used Hollywood as his workshop. So most of the movies that we
21:44 see all the soap operas that people look at hour after
21:48 hour with "the love stories. " That's not love.
21:51 Fall in love now, go to bed with this person,
21:55 break up, go start again; that's not love.
21:58 Satan has used Hollywood to multiply and to confuse the
22:05 concepts. Love does not come from Hollywood. Love comes
22:11 from heaven. 1 John 4:8, the text you read at the beginning,
22:15 God is love. So all true love whether it be boyfriend/
22:21 girlfriend, husband/wife, who- ever, all true love comes from
22:26 God, and all true love is comfortable in the presence of
22:32 God. And that's the basic dif- ference between love and lust
22:38 Amen. So there are those seven contrasts. Would you like to
22:44 maybe go into one or more once again, like we should
22:52 start with the first one, lust is a changeable feeling, love
22:55 is an enduring principle.
22:57 Yes, and by the way, we should point out that what we are
23:01 presenting here is a mini ver- sion of the larger seminar.
23:07 The full seminar is twice this size and all of these seminars
23:14 ...this one is just one of dozens of seminars that are
23:20 available from HappyFamily Bible Seminars International. For
23:24 those who are listening, I want to repeat where they can be
23:29 accessed. Our web site is www. happyfamilybsi. com.
23:40 Our 800 number is 1-800-291-3060
23:46 There you can find dozens of them that are available, a few
23:52 can be downloaded and all the material can be accessed
23:58 So these seven points, first of all lust is anchored in feeling.
24:12 Love, yes, has feelings but it's a principle and that lasts
24:18 forever. Passion is blind, but love sees
24:21 and examines; that's the next one.
24:23 As Jesus said, You have eyes, look and see. The third one,
24:30 is on the externals. Lust is obsessed with just how the
24:37 person looks, the figure and the fashion and the
24:40 sex appeal, while love admires the externals, but it is more
24:45 concerned with the internals, who the person really is.
24:51 Lust is promiscuous, but love is pure.
24:55 That's so crucial really because in the world today promiscuity
25:01 is all around; not only with the young people, adults are no
25:07 better. So we need to recognize that this is not just for young
25:13 people, it is for everyone. Anything that is based in
25:18 promiscuity is not love regard- less of what we feel, it is
25:26 lust. Love is pure. Then lust is self-centered but love is
25:33 other-centered self-sacrificing.
25:35 Well I love the fact, you know, that you put the other person
25:40 then as a rule they reciprocate, you know and then
25:44 that brings balance into the relationship. You want the
25:47 very best. God has given us given all so many talents and
25:50 we want to encourage and sup- port our mate so that they will
25:54 utilize those talents.
25:55 Okay, lust operates by chance, but love by design, because God
26:03 has a plan for each life.
26:05 The last one is that lust comes from Satan, and love comes from
26:10 God. So that as we review this each listener needs to rate
26:16 themself on a scale of 1-10. Where am I. Is it really lust
26:22 or is it love that I have? If my score is low, how do I change
26:26 that score? I change that score by going to the source of love,
26:31 which is God and asking Him to give me that love and give my
26:35 spouse, give my fiancé that love so that we can have the real
26:39 thing and then our lives will be happy together.
26:42 Well it is obvious that has worked well in your family, 44
26:45 years and you can tell, you know, that you are very much
26:49 in love. As you look at each other you know that your eyes
26:52 just sparkle to this day. So that is absolutely fantastic.
26:56 Listen Gordon, I'd just like to end this program with a prayer.
27:00 I'd just like, if it's all right with you, that you will just go
27:04 to the Lord and we'll just share this time together.
27:08 Sure. Let's pray. Dear Lord, we're so thankful that you are
27:12 the source of love. We come to you with open hearts. Please
27:17 put your love in our hearts so that we can have happy families
27:21 here on earth in preparation for the family in heaven. We
27:24 thank you, in Jesus name. Amen
27:26 Amen, Amen. I just want to thank both of y'all for being here.
27:31 This is such a wonderful time. It is so wonderful to see people
27:34 that are in love, but not only can talk about it but can also
27:38 show it. I just want to thank each one of you that has tuned
27:42 in today for Issues and Answers and I just challenge each one of
27:46 you just to communicate better within your own family.
27:49 Thank you for watching. We love you and we look
27:52 forward to seeing you next time. God bless you and your family.