Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Desmond Mattocks
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000270
00:29 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn and welcome again to
00:32 Issues and Answers. I'm very excited today because
00:35 we have back with us Dr. Desmond Mattocks.
00:39 Desmond, thank you so much for coming back. Now you have a
00:43 Ph.D. in Christian Counseling. What is the name of your
00:48 ministry? Redemption Therapy.
00:50 Redemption Therapy and actually you've written a book by the
00:54 same title. Yes I have. Redemption Therapy: Counseling
00:57 by Inspiration. Now we are going to be talking today about the
01:02 role of marriage in society and Desmond has joined us from
01:07 Miramar, Florida. He's traveled up to 3ABN. I want to give you a
01:12 scripture that will kind of set this up for the role of marriage
01:17 in society. In Genesis 2:24 when the Lord sanctified marriage,
01:22 when he brought people into a covenant agreement he says:
01:26 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall
01:32 become united and cleave to his wife and they shall become one
01:38 flesh. One flesh. This is an interesting thing. How do we
01:43 understand, or how do you understand, the original purpose
01:48 of marriage, Desmond? As you indicated in Genesis 2:24
01:53 God's intent for marriage was that all marriages should run
01:59 their course. It was to last a lifetime but in this world that
02:06 we live man has redefined marriage and marriage has
02:12 become until remarriage.
02:16 Okay, let me repeat that. What man's new definition is I'll
02:20 marry you until I decide that I would rather remarry someone
02:24 else. Okay. Right. You know, we see someone
02:28 that we like and after 10 or 15 years we think, well I would
02:33 like a new model. The old model that I have, I need to trade it
02:39 in and so we find excuses and we discard our spouses and then we
02:45 bring the frown of God upon ourselves. God has a controversy
02:51 with us. So this postmodern world in which we live with it's
02:57 postmodern God has come to represent a compromise between
03:03 the great I Am that was seen on Mount Sinai by Moses and the
03:08 god of philosophers. So that's the kind of god that now runs
03:13 this world or at least the ideas of that god. It is based on
03:18 philosophy, not by the God of Mount Sinai or the God of
03:23 Abraham. By the God of the Bible. Right. Explain to us the
03:29 sanctity of marriage. Marriage is like a sanctuary.
03:36 It is supposed to be pure. There should be integrity.
03:43 The marriage bed should not be soiled. It is when two people
03:48 become one, intimately and otherwise, it ought not to be
03:53 invaded by spurious thoughts by anyone else. God said, Let no
03:57 one put asunder, let no one be an irritant to what is going on
04:01 between these two people. If anything needs fixing, let it be
04:07 fixed by God himself, because it was he who put them together.
04:13 Now what man has done, he has gone downtown to the courts
04:19 and has asked the divorce judge to undo what almighty God has
04:23 done and that's a violation of the seventh commandment. So man
04:28 has kept caviling at the seventh commandment and God is
04:32 displeased with this. You know, people say why is the world in
04:38 the state it's in? And they legislate and they bring bills
04:43 out and legislation to fix what is happening and they can't
04:47 understand that this is a spiritual problem; that if you
04:52 fix the families you will fix the society.
04:55 You know, it occurred to me first two things, that we need
05:01 to explain and define the word sanctity. When we say that God
05:06 sanctified marriage he set it apart for holy purposes and so
05:11 God has a holy purpose when he said that the man and the woman
05:16 should become one. I did a deep study on this and the one that
05:20 God is talking about is being one in purpose, thought and
05:25 action. He created woman to be a helpmate to her husband and
05:29 the husband to love the wife as Christ loved the church and the
05:33 wife to be submissive in that the husband is the tie breaker
05:39 is how I explain this. But now when you said that people run
05:43 down to the divorce courts for the fixing let's go back.
05:46 Because our last program we talked about what redemption
05:50 therapy was. Explain to us what this book is about. What is the
05:55 meaning of redemption therapy? Rather than running to the
05:58 court what should we be running to?
06:01 The Bible teaches very clearly that when brokenness has taken
06:09 place we need to seek God's help because only God can heal us and
06:16 can cleanse us from our defilements. Now redemption
06:21 therapy teaches exactly what God is teaching; that you don't go
06:31 and ask somebody else to fix your marriage. You ask God.
06:36 You bring the word of God as a guide, as your measurement for
06:43 how you should live in life. So redemption therapy is intended
06:51 to use God's word wisely in marriage. So we don't live by
06:57 the counselor's opinion. We don't live by what other people
07:03 are saying to us. The Bible says we live by every word that comes
07:08 out of God's mouth. We spoke earlier about sanctification.
07:14 You know God put it aside and he sanctified it.
07:17 God only sanctifies things that he can justify. So if you live
07:22 in a marriage relationship and your actions are not in keeping
07:28 with God's will then you're not being sanctified and you'll
07:32 never see glorification because you have to be justified, then
07:37 sanctified then glorified.
07:39 All right now, there's a lot of people who understand these
07:43 terms but let's go back for some who are listening to us today
07:48 who don't understand what it means to be justified and
07:51 and glorified. We've talked about sanctified means to be
07:55 set apart for a holy purpose, a purpose that God has designed.
07:59 What does it mean to be justified and glorified?
08:02 Well to be justified is that your action in front of God
08:07 is approved, basically. Whatever you're doing in life, the way
08:11 your living your life, the way you function in life pleases
08:15 God. Because that's your sole function in life. You have no
08:19 other purpose in life but to live to please God, to make God
08:23 look good in every given situation.
08:25 To bring God glory. Yes, to bring God glory and so
08:28 when God is pleased with your action you are justified.
08:33 Abraham was that type of person. He was justified before God and
08:37 he became a friend of God. So we too ought to please God and
08:40 become a friend of God and through that process, once you
08:44 are justified by God, then you are sanctified.
08:47 And we are justified by faith as Abraham was. We are
08:52 sanctified by faith as well. I mean, the Bible is clear on that
08:56 To be glorified means what?
08:58 To be glorified is really to be brought into the kingdom of God
09:07 in terms of all the gifts that God has given us in life; to be
09:15 experiencing the joys that Christ brings and so when he
09:21 comes in his glory we'll all be glorified with him and share
09:25 in his kingdom. So is it fair to say, since the Bible clearly
09:28 shows that the glory of the Lord was his character when Moses
09:33 said show me your glory. What happened? God came down and he
09:38 explained his character. Moses only got to see his back.
09:42 He explained his character. So to be glorified is to be changed
09:46 by God to be conformed to the image of his Son Jesus.
09:51 This is what when we talk about being glorified in the end how
09:55 we all become just like he is.
09:57 So the point is to reproduce the character of Christ in your life
10:01 That's really what we are striving to do through our
10:04 experiences on this earth and certainly in our marriage.
10:07 So if God then created us as his children and then when we are
10:11 born again he adopts us as his children... The purpose of
10:16 marriage was... many Christians say well the purpose of marriage
10:21 was to reproduce and fill the earth. But God had more than
10:27 that in mind didn't he?
10:29 Certainly. Certainly Malachi chapter 2 God makes it clear
10:35 that not only to fill the earth but he wanted Godly offspring.
10:40 He wanted earth full of Godly people, not of carnal-minded
10:44 people. That's not what he intended. So when you have a
10:49 world full of people who are reproducing God's character, you
10:53 have a holy nation of people and the Bible says that's what we
10:57 ought to become. We are royal. You know, when you look at
11:02 royalty... I grew up in England and when I see the Queen and
11:07 Prince Charles in terms of the way of how they conduct
11:10 themselves, with dignity and so on and so forth. That's how
11:15 royalty behaves. But as a people we seem to be living in the base
11:21 condition of this world. We don't behave as if we belong to
11:25 God. We have abandoned God's principles so we don't behave
11:30 like royalty at all. So we're not reproducing God's character
11:34 in our lives. We have succumbed to the definition of marriage in
11:39 the world and so God has a problem with us.
11:42 So redemption therapy now comes and reminds us that listen, the
11:47 purpose for which you are born is to glorify God. You are set
11:52 apart for holy use. But you have taken on the principles of
11:57 someone else. You need to abandon that, you need to return
12:01 to be redeemed to your original condition, to have a
12:05 relationship with God that Adam had, to be restored to your
12:09 original position. Desmond, would you agree that
12:11 the family, when we're talking about the purpose and the role
12:14 of marriage in society and the family, would you agree that
12:18 this is the smallest unit of the church and so the church is
12:21 made up of families. We're all a part of the body of Christ.
12:26 Now if you come into a family by adoption... I know I've got a
12:32 question here if I can frame it. If people come into marriage,
12:37 let's just make it simple, with wrong expectations the marriage
12:44 is doomed, is it not? Yes. So the carnal mind, the one who is
12:48 not following the Lord, their expectations of marriage...
12:53 I listen to, sometimes I'll turn on some talk shows just to
12:57 see... because you can get so spiritually minded you're no
13:00 earthly good, if you don't know what's going on in the world,
13:03 and I'll turn something on occasionally to watch and I'm
13:06 amazed when I listen to people, why they're getting married.
13:10 Especially if you're listening to someone who is famous.
13:14 You know they enter in an out of marriage so rapidly.
13:18 What happened to change people's expectations of marriage
13:22 compared to what God wants?
13:26 Well if the church was playing the role that it was supposed
13:33 to play, I think people's attitude would be different.
13:40 People come into marriage with huge expectations and when
13:44 they come into it and they realize that these things are
13:49 not working out, then they decide that we must abandon
13:53 this. Now the only thing that can change a person's heart is
13:59 Jesus Christ. You can't change a person by beating them with your
14:04 love. Whatever love you have for your spouse must be used to
14:08 improve yourself not to beat them over the head with it.
14:11 Explain what you mean. You said that you can't improve your
14:15 marriage by beating them of the head with love.
14:17 Sometimes I've seen couples come to counseling and one wants the
14:22 counselor to fix the other one. If only he would do that or if
14:26 only she would do that then everything would be all right.
14:30 And it doesn't work that way. You know, it is about working on
14:35 the individual's heart. So when transformation takes place in
14:40 they heart they begin to see things differently on the
14:43 outside, and that can only be done by Jesus Christ. So it is
14:47 not the opinions, it's not how you look, it's not how you dress
14:52 it's what takes place internally.
14:54 So redemption therapy is about using the word of God to counsel
15:00 people and let them know that God said... Psalm 107:20 he sent
15:05 his word to heal us. So when marriages are not fulfilling the
15:10 role in society that they were intended to and if people have
15:14 wrong expectations or even a wrong perspective of what
15:18 marriage is all about, it's almost like their marriage is
15:22 doomed. Would you agree that some of what Hollywood has done
15:27 to us is set up this idea that marriage is going to be this
15:32 romantic journey. Women go into this idea that I've met my
15:36 prince charming and everything is going to be wonderful.
15:40 That's not realistic is it?
15:42 Well it's not because what Hollywood has done is glorified
15:48 cohabitation. When we see this filth coming out of Hollywood,
15:54 the TV that comes into our homes sometimes is a pipeline of filth
15:59 that comes into our homes. So we build up these misconceptions
16:03 and misperceptions of what marriage is and we begin to live
16:07 as these people live. But that's not the way God intended.
16:12 God intended his people to be holy and to be examples.
16:16 But when you look around and I say to people in redemption
16:20 therapy, if you look around and you don't see sufficient
16:24 examples be the example. You be the example. Because sometimes
16:29 we're looking and it's not there and because everybody else is
16:33 doing what feels good, we think that's all right, even the
16:37 church and that's not the case. You know, if David had not
16:40 messed around with the seventh commandment we probably would
16:43 have had Psalm 51. And the seventh commandment is
16:47 marriage. Really God is saying listen
16:48 David, I made you king as a little boy. I reserved you to
16:54 take over and become king of Israel and everything I gave you
16:59 I saved you from all the scrapes in life. Look what you've done.
17:03 You have given occasions for others to reproach my name.
17:08 So let me explain for some of our listeners that the seventh
17:12 commandment is Thou shalt not commit adultery and David as
17:16 king of Israel took Bathsheba who was another man's wife
17:21 and Psalm 51 is his psalm of repentance where he is saying
17:26 oh wash me, purge me with hyssop and I will be whiter than snow.
17:30 Restore to me the joy of your salvation then I'll teach
17:33 transgressors your ways. So this was his psalm of deep repentance
17:37 after he recognized that God had the finger on him.
17:42 Amen, but it shows something else; that David was a man after
17:47 God's own heart. He was favored by God, but God did not allow
17:53 him to get away with that sinful act. So it shows you how
17:58 particular God is about marriage That here is King David, a man
18:03 of God's own heart, a man who was striving to reflect God's
18:07 character and he did wrong. And God said as a consequence of
18:12 this the sword will never be removed from your house.
18:15 And as we read David's story we see how many things happened
18:19 to him, incest and murder and all this kind of thing because
18:23 of what he had done. You know, the way I explain that
18:26 because I've had people ask me, Desmond, did God accept David's
18:32 repentance? Absolutely. 1 Kings 14:8, somewhere around there
18:37 said that God after David died said to Jeroboam, You've not
18:42 been as my servant David who did only what was right in my
18:47 eyes. Well so God accepted his repentance and he forgave him
18:52 but sometimes we put consequences into action in the
18:56 physical realm that cannot be stopped after our sin. So let me
19:02 bring this back then. If we are looking at the role of marriage
19:07 in society, it is to reflect the glory of God, to let people know
19:12 what God's love is all about and to bring the story of
19:18 redemption to people. What happens to people spiritually
19:23 when they don't try to work on their marriage and let God
19:29 fix their marriage, what happens to them spiritually if they go
19:33 down that pathway of divorce?
19:36 Well the same thim that happened to Adam. Satan comes along and
19:40 says, you don't really have to do what God asked you to do.
19:47 You can do your own thing. So Adam died spiritually and then
19:54 physically and that's what happens to marriage. It dies
19:59 spiritually because the spiritual element is part of
20:04 man, it's coded in your DNA, you can't get that out. From the
20:08 very history of the morning of creation God put that element in
20:12 you. So when you don't encourage or build on or develop the
20:17 spiritual image you slowly die and you're no longer able to
20:22 reflect God's character. So Adam slowly died spiritually. Ellen
20:27 White said that the first time Adam saw a leaf fall from the
20:32 tree that's when he understood exactly how dangerous sin is
20:36 because he never saw a leaf fall from a tree before. So we become
20:42 like a leper. After while the senses are numb. You can't feel
20:47 and you become careless. You bounce yourself against walls
20:52 and all and you're not feeling anything. You're not being led
20:56 by the Spirit of God so you begin to do things that
21:00 initially were repulsive to you. That's what happens when you
21:04 die spiritually. The Holy Spirit is no longer leading you so you
21:10 become careless in life. So these are like leper defilement.
21:14 You notice in the Bible, there are, I think, three or four
21:19 instances in the Bible where leprosy was not really a disease
21:24 it was a consequence of defilement. We have Gehazi
21:29 with greed, we have Miriam which was speaking evil of her brother
21:34 and we have Moses himself who had doubts about God and God
21:38 really in essence said Moses look at your heart, put our hand
21:42 in your bosom. I think this day God is saying to all of us in
21:46 marriage, put your hand in your bosom and pull it out. When
21:51 Moses pulled it out it became leprous. I think that was
21:55 defilement. You notice the Bible didn't say Christ healed the
22:00 lepers. It says he cleansed it. So redemption therapy is about
22:05 cleansing people's defilement because I think some of the
22:09 conditions that we have in life that we're going to the medical
22:12 doctor for, they are really not diseases as such, they are
22:16 defilement. So redemption therapy is teaching cleansing
22:21 of our defilement which is what divorce is.
22:24 Right. So if you have a couple who is coming to your office
22:28 for Christian counseling, let's say it's me and I'm coming and
22:33 I'm saying it's over. You know that straw that broke the
22:37 camel's back. You know I'm thinking that it would be better
22:41 for me as a Christian, you know, I cannot live with this man, I
22:44 cannot live a Christian life with this man. I am ready to
22:46 divorce him. What are you going to tell me? What's going to be
22:50 the effect of divorce and how am I wrecking the role of
22:53 marriage in society, God's role?
22:56 Well not so much to tell you but for us to identify options
23:02 as to what is the best fit for your marriage and the best fit
23:08 is Jesus Christ. We will go through his word, we will find
23:13 out why you feel the way you're feeling, where you yourself may
23:18 have contributed to the way you're feeling. I would probably
23:23 as you, I would say, Shelley what is it that you want out of
23:29 your marriage? I would ask you what does happiness look like to
23:35 you? Define it, happiness. Because what is love? What does
23:39 it mean to you. Because love is better appreciated, better seen
23:44 than defined. So sometimes people come to counseling and
23:49 they really don't know what it is that is happening in their
23:53 marriage. But let's say for just a moment,
23:55 Desmond, that I come to you and I say, okay, happiness would be
24:00 not arguing every night, not having this man come in drunk.
24:05 Happiness would be, you know, what I want out of my marriage
24:09 is peace and I don't get it here. Now would you as a
24:15 counselor tell me that quit worrying about fixing this man
24:20 get right with the Lord spiritually myself and just what
24:25 pray and watch the Lord, I mean watch what God can do in this
24:29 man's life. What would you tell me.
24:30 No, no. Not at all. Again I wouldn't tell you but we would
24:34 would work through what would be best for both you and your
24:38 husband and praying alone won't do it. Sometimes we are the
24:43 answer to our own prayers. We have to quit doing some of the
24:47 things that we're doing. You know, if you pray and you pray
24:50 and you pray it doesn't mean that your husband will stop
24:54 drinking or will stop doing the things that he's doing. No, he
24:58 has to take responsibility for his own action but you help him
25:02 through the process and through the word of God he will see how
25:06 he should walk, you know, humbly before God and get
25:12 rid of some of the things that he's doing. It is a repugnant
25:18 task sometimes to fix a marriage because we tend to give our
25:23 opinions of what should be done and what shouldn't be done
25:25 but the Bible is very, very clear about what is permissible
25:32 and what is condemned by God. So the whole idea of redemption
25:38 therapy is going through identifying, because sometime we
25:41 don't even identify what the problem is. So we come in
25:45 thinking that it's my husband or it's my wife. We must first
25:48 identify what the problem is.
25:50 And we would agree that the problem is always spiritual.
25:54 It is always spiritual. That's the story. So if you connect,
25:59 or reconnect should I say, and work towards God's program then
26:02 ultimately... It's not going to happen overnight because some
26:06 of these things are deep-seated and deep-rooted and they take
26:10 time. So we work through the program, adhering to God's
26:13 principle and ultimately you will get out of the rut.
26:17 So part of this, then, I would suppose begins with defining
26:21 what the role of marriage is in society and letting people have
26:26 realistic expectations and a parameter. You have to frame it
26:31 in such a way that they understand the parameters of
26:34 marriage. So I just think that this is a very exciting topic
26:39 and I know that the Lord has used you on many occasions to
26:44 let his healing flow through his word by your direction.
26:49 I do really want you to come back and talk about the one
26:53 thing we haven't addressed is the role of the church in this
26:57 situation. So will you come back?
27:00 Sure, I will do that. That's wonderful. Desmond,
27:02 thank you so much. The book that you've written is
27:05 Redemption Therapy: Counseling by Inspiration by Dr. Desmond
27:10 A. L. Mattocks. You've got 26 years of experience so I guess
27:16 you know what you're talking about here; 26 years of
27:19 experience in marriage. Praise the Lord. Well thank you so
27:23 much for being with us. Please tune in again next time because
27:27 we're going to be talking about the role of the church and how
27:32 the church can reach out to help married couples who are in
27:35 problems. And you know we can all get in problems in our
27:39 marriage if we get to where we're looking at it from a
27:43 selfish aspect and not from a self-sacrificing love aspect.
27:46 May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of the Father
27:50 and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.
27:53 Thank you.