Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Desmond Mattocks
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000269
00:29 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn and welcome again to
00:32 Issues and Answers. We've got a very interesting
00:35 program today and I love the title. The title of this program
00:39 is Redemption Therapy. Now let me read you a scripture before
00:44 I introduce our guest. The scripture is from
00:46 2 Corinthians 3:16 and I'll be reading from the Amplified
00:51 and I'm going to read it all. It says, Every scripture is
00:55 God-breathed; it is given by his inspiration and profitable for
01:00 instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for
01:05 correction of error and discipline in obedience and for
01:08 training in righteousness, in holy living, in conformity to
01:13 God's will and thought, purpose and action. I wanted to share
01:17 that scripture with you today because our very special guest
01:20 today is here for Miramar, Florida and help me welcome
01:26 Dr. Desmond Mattocks. Dr. Mattocks your Ph.D. is in
01:33 Christian counseling. That's correct. Now did you start off
01:36 going to school to get a Ph.D. at a Christian university?
01:41 No I did not. I started to attend a local university and
01:45 we had some issues in terms of their perception of what
01:50 marriage is and what counseling is and so after taking a number
01:55 of classes, I realized that this was not the place for me. So I
01:59 subsequently transferred my credits to a Christian school
02:05 where I finished my dissertation because they are very much
02:11 involved in post modern counseling from a secular
02:14 perspective. It really leaves God's word out of the whole
02:19 scenario and for me I realized where I was going and what I
02:25 wanted to do ultimately and so we just didn't see eye to eye
02:30 and we just parted company.
02:32 You know, I can identify with that because my husband was
02:36 studying for his doctorate in psychology when he quit school
02:39 and when we first married here he thought he knew all of these
02:42 things and he'd try to tell me something and I'd say, Honey
02:45 that doesn't line up with the Bible. And it took a few years
02:48 for him and now he does Christian counseling just as you
02:53 do. So you actually have a ministry called Redemption
02:58 Therapy. I love the name of your ministry. You're director and
03:01 speaker. Please define for us what redemption therapy is.
03:07 Well the objective of redemption therapy is to restore the
03:12 individual firstly to God because once you're restored to
03:17 God, to redeem yourself to God, it is easy to make relationship
03:21 with everybody else. So it's not just like secular counseling
03:25 where you just talk to the individual about being
03:29 reconciled to their spouse or husband or wife because a lot of
03:33 the problems that we have are as a consequence of our
03:37 obedience or disobedience to almighty God. So if you are
03:41 reconciled with God then being reconciled to your wife or your
03:46 husband is made easy. So redemption therapy really is the
03:52 wise use of God's word in therapy and it deals with the
03:57 issue of sin. In secular therapy sin is left like a dangling
04:03 participle and it's not dealt with. Everything is based on
04:10 feelings. But God's word, as indicated in 2 Timothy 3:16 must
04:16 be used for reproof and correction. So that's exactly
04:20 what redemption therapy is doing is reintroducing God's word in
04:24 therapy and saying there's no way that you can fix your
04:29 brokenness unless Christ is involved. To do therapy without
04:33 God's word is really to invite trouble into your life.
04:37 You know, I have friends who have been through secular
04:40 counseling and they were so much worse off when they came
04:44 out because what they were taught was this idea of
04:47 entitlement; you are entitled to this, you are entitled to
04:50 that and they were taught to actually love themselves more
04:54 than they loved anyone else and that they could not have a good
04:57 relationship unless they did love themselves more than anyone
05:01 else. You know the Bible does teach us that we are to love
05:04 our self but we are to love others as our self and truly
05:08 the Bible tells us to put others needs before ours. So they are
05:12 diametrically opposed, aren't they?
05:13 Well secular counseling doesn't even understand what love is.
05:15 I agree. Because the Bible makes it very clear that God is love.
05:29 So anything that you do that is not Godly you cannot call it
05:32 love. So we came back and really redemption therapy is a call
05:34 that is needed. It is saying, we have moved too far away from the
05:40 counsel of God. We need to get back because you cannot live
05:45 your life as you choose. You are not your own. You are bought
05:50 with a price. So the way in which you live your marriage
05:54 must be lived in a way that makes God look good. So many
05:59 people from time to time seem to think that it's a given thing
06:04 that you're going to be happy in your marriage. But that's not
06:09 the thing at all. I think it's confused logic to think that
06:14 way. But whatever the circumstances in life you must
06:19 make God look good and marriage is something where you have
06:26 troubles, you have ups and downs and so you must come to God's
06:33 word and ingest his word. Take his word in and live by it and
06:40 use the word of God as a tool as a measure and look at your own
06:46 self in front of God. The question you really need to ask
06:51 of yourself what is the condition of my heart in front
06:55 of God and the word of God tells you that.
06:58 You know, it's interesting and see if you agree with this.
07:03 I have noticed that quite often in the secular mind the first
07:08 year of marriage they often still feel that they're in this
07:11 honeymoon stage and then it seems like they've got the best
07:15 part of their marriage and then the marriage begins to go down
07:18 hill and they'll say, the honeymoon is over. Now in
07:21 contrast I've noticed with Christians quite often the first
07:24 year of their marriage is the most difficult and it's almost,
07:26 in my opinion at least, that Satan is attacking and not
07:32 wanting people to really learn how to be one as God intends
07:36 them to be one. But what I have noticed, and I know in my own
07:40 marriage I prayed so hard before I married, Lord make me a
07:44 scriptural wife. There were so many problems that we avoided
07:48 in our relationship that first year because I learned to keep
07:51 my mouth shut and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.
07:54 But the closer J.D. and I have gotten to the word of God, the
07:59 more that our relationship developed. The more we fell in
08:03 love with God, the better our marriage was.
08:06 Well the first thing to know is that Satan doesn't have a family
08:11 (ooh that's a good point) and he cannot reproduce himself, so
08:16 everything that God puts together, he wants to break
08:19 up and so he attacks God's people. But you cannot overcome
08:25 the troubles in your life unless you're living according to the
08:30 will of God according to his word. So it's very, very
08:33 important that God's word is our guide.
08:36 So that is the objective of the redemption therapy is to bring
08:42 people back into relationship with God, look at how the Bible
08:47 says to overcome the sin problem and then they can learn to, with
08:53 a self-sacrificing love, love one another.
08:56 Love one another. You see secular counseling teaches that
09:00 there is no ultimate reality. You know, everything is relative
09:05 There is no truth. Reality is what you perceive it to be and
09:10 that's okay. Do whatever feels good. If you're not happy in
09:15 your marriage then you walk out. Then comes redemption therapy
09:20 and says no, not so. That's not God's way. God is saying that
09:26 marriage is not a lease agreement. It is a covenant
09:30 experience. It's a covenant with God and with your spouse.
09:36 You just don't walk out. So whenever things go wrong and
09:41 even some of the marriages that have arrived pronounced dead in
09:47 the therapist office in secular counseling can be revived by
09:53 redemption therapy. You know, I read a book one time
09:57 and I do not remember the title of it, Desmond, but it was
10:01 written by a medical doctor, both he and his wife were
10:05 doctors, and they had fallen, if this is a correct way to say it,
10:10 they had fallen out of love with one another. There was an
10:14 animosity between the two of them. This man was beginning to
10:18 grow in a Christian relationship and didn't know what to do
10:21 because his wife was just hateful toward him and as he
10:25 sought the Lord the Lord was teaching him how to love her
10:28 with an agape love, that love of unconditional acceptance with a
10:33 phileo love, with all of these loves and the more he tried to
10:36 love her the way the Lord showed him to love her the more
10:40 she resisted him. But the beauty of the book was it took
10:44 two years of him loving her the way that God wanted him to and
10:49 she then began to grow in love for him and they started doing
10:53 counseling together. But I want to back up for just a second
10:57 because it just occurred to me you used a term that some of our
11:02 viewers may not be familiar with. You said that marriage is
11:06 not a lease agreement but it is a covenant. Please explain to
11:11 our viewers what a covenant is.
11:15 Most people today treat their lives or their marriage like a
11:20 contract. A contract has two elements: Offer and acceptance.
11:27 If one of those two elements is not in existence then the
11:33 the contract is made void. So they treat their lives and their
11:36 marriages that way. You are not doing so and so, so I'm going to
11:39 get out of this and it becomes a contract. With God it is a
11:45 covenant. It's never any out, it doesn't matter what is going
11:50 on. You will continue to love, not because you feel like loving
11:55 but because it's a principle, it is the right thing to do.
12:00 The Bible teaches that we certainly as husbands must love
12:04 our wives as Christ loves the church. Now how did Christ love
12:09 the church? He was willing to give his life. It was a
12:14 commitment. He gave his life for the church. So we must
12:19 that Christ established in Genesis 2:24 that for this cause
12:24 a man must leave everyone, mother, father, everybody and
12:29 cleave. If you don't leave not only geographically but
12:33 psychologically, mentally, you can't cleave at all and I think
12:37 that's one of the problems that we're having. So a covenant is
12:41 not a lease where you can get out, it's not a car deal, and
12:45 sometimes we spend more time choosing our cars than we do
12:49 with a husband or wife. So it is forever. It must only terminate
12:53 at the point of death says the Bible and God made it also clear
12:59 in Malachi 2:16 that he doesn't like putting away. You know, we
13:03 must stay the course. He says I have a controversy with such
13:09 people who do these things. So again redemption therapy comes
13:13 to the aid of those who are anguished and who are suffering
13:17 and who are wondering what to do It is strange in today's society
13:24 in the sense that in Noah's time there was an ark, in Lot's time
13:30 there was a Zoar to run to and married people are today
13:33 wondering well where is the place of safety. Well the place
13:38 of safety is redemption therapy that brings you back to God
13:42 and back to your fellowman.
13:44 So redemption therapy is to bring you as Colossians 3:3 to
13:49 that realization that your real life is hidden with Christ in
13:53 God, that you're dead to self. Let me read Malachi 2:16 and I
13:58 particularly like the way the Amplified has expounded on this.
14:04 It says, this is the Lord speaking, and he says, For the
14:07 Lord, the God of Israel, says I hate divorce and marital
14:11 separation in him who covers his wife with violence. Therefore,
14:16 keep watch upon your spirit that it may be controlled by my
14:22 spirit that you may not deal treacherously and faithlessly
14:27 with your marriage mate. So God really never intended, I mean
14:33 when he said that they were to, in Genesis 2:24, become one, to
14:38 cleave together and be one, he never really intended... We do
14:43 know that later on it was added that for marital unfaithfulness
14:48 there are a few things here that God talks about why he allowed
14:53 divorce but he doesn't like it. It's an apostasy, if you will.
14:59 He never introduced divorce. He regulates it and he gives us a
15:04 clear example in the book of Hosea what a marriage ought to
15:10 be. We see that where Gomer clearly had caviled at the 7th
15:16 commandment and had left home. Hosea the priest thought he had
15:22 good grounds for divorce. But God told him go and purchase
15:27 your wife again. And he said, I bought her for 15 shekels of
15:31 silver. So God's intent that all marriages should run their
15:36 course and not be cut short. You know sometimes I think we
15:42 cut our reign of greatness short Sometimes we're destined to be
15:46 great people through our marriages but something happens
15:49 and we cut it short. The things we crave about the great men of
15:56 the Bible are in us. Everything that we crave for in Daniel and
16:02 Job and David and all of them is in us. It's on the anvil of our
16:08 circumstances that we become great. So God is shaping us in
16:14 everything that happens in life. Have you ever seen a
16:20 blacksmith at work with his sledge hammer trying to shape a
16:25 piece of metal and it slides. You know, we are like that.
16:29 Have you ever wondered why Christ died the way he did with
16:33 arms outstretched in a posture of love on the cross? The secret
16:39 of successful Christian living really is to when you hear those
16:44 screams of crucified self ignore them as he did. Too often in
16:49 marriage we try to get off the cross. When we're going through
16:54 things we say well we must get out of this and we're more prone
16:58 to call the attorney than we are to call the pastor or the elder
17:03 or go to the family altar for prayer. Redemption therapy
17:06 brings you back and says remember from whence you came,
17:10 the purpose for which you were created is to make God look good
17:14 in every given situation. Boy, you know what you were
17:20 talking about how it's like being on the anvil. I love what
17:24 James says when he says in James 1:2: Count it pure joy
17:29 when these things come because these are the trials in James
17:33 chapter 1. James shows us that trials, we shouldn't resent them
17:38 we should appreciate them because they are deepening our
17:41 character. And he goes on to say that these trials help us to
17:45 prove our faith, they bring out endurance and steadfastness
17:50 and patience and then this will have its full play and do a
17:54 thorough work in perfecting us. This is something that when
17:58 we're going through a trial sometimes it's so difficult to
18:01 remember that Jesus sees something precious in you and
18:05 why he allows the trial; he's not causing the trial but why he
18:09 allows it is that he can polish that potential that you're
18:13 talking about. So who is redemption therapy for?
18:18 Who needs this redemption therapy?
18:20 Well all of us who are married need it. But even those more so
18:27 who are experiencing problems with their marriage. All of us
18:33 are living in a fallen world as a consequence of what our first
18:38 parents did. So we need to be redeemed.
18:41 By "our first parents" you're talking about Adam and Eve.
18:44 Right. So the only way we can be redeemed according to Acts 4:12
18:49 is through Christ Jesus. He is the only person. So it is really
18:54 confused logic to do therapy without the word of God and as I
18:59 indicated earlier that... Take for example Job. Job had become
19:03 a wager between God and Satan and didn't know it and sometimes
19:08 we become wagers between God and Satan in our marriages.
19:12 God might well be saying have you see Tom? There's none like
19:17 him. Have you seen Mary? There's none like her. And Satan is
19:21 trying to tug at you through your marriage, but because we're
19:25 not connected to Jesus Christ, unlike Job, we cannot see what
19:30 is happening. I like what Job's wife asked him. Doest thou still
19:36 retain thy integrity - Job 2:9. And I think that's exactly what
19:41 marriage is about. In spite of what you're going through you
19:46 must retain your integrity. When you're stripped and nothing is
19:51 left the question is what kind of a person are you when no one
19:55 is looking. That's good because there's so
19:58 many times, and you hear this often throughout all
20:02 denominations, all churches, where you hear people say...
20:07 Actually many years ago I had called, I was trying to get in
20:12 touch with a young man and his mother answered the phone and
20:16 she answered the phone the phone and she said Hello, and I told
20:19 this was Shelley Quinn and she said Oooh and she was just being
20:23 so lovely. Well I was trying to counsel with this young man and
20:27 he told me then later she was arguing so badly and being so
20:32 mean spirited until you called. He said, I see my mother and my
20:37 father at church acting so righteous and so polished and
20:42 he said and then they argue all the way to church, they
20:45 argue all the way home and he said they're at each other's
20:49 throat all the time and he was about to reject God because of
20:54 the hypocrisy in his own home. So what you're saying is that
20:58 and what I'm going to say right here is that I know that any
21:02 time that I have a problem the root is a spiritual problem.
21:06 Amen, amen. In fact, Martin Luther, the great reformer, said
21:10 that. That all our problems are spiritual. They manifest
21:14 themselves in different ways but the source is because we have
21:18 moved away. There is no connection. And the only visible
21:22 way we can tell whether a person is abiding in Christ is through
21:27 the fruits of the Spirit; that's the only way.
21:30 Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness
21:35 self-control and I'm leaving one out but yes.
21:38 What's the worst case that has come to you for counseling?
21:42 Have you ever felt like someone came in for redemption
21:46 counseling and you thought praying the leading of the Holy
21:50 Spirit thought, Lord, this one looks impossible?
21:53 As I said earlier, there are some that come dead on arrival
21:58 at the therapist's office. Spiritually dead because like
22:04 Adam they're no longer able to reflect the Father's character.
22:09 Their words are mean. Their attitude is indifferent to each
22:14 other. But with Jesus Christ, with the word of God you begin
22:20 to breathe a life into them. You know, I always make reference to
22:26 the centurion because he understood something that I
22:31 don't think a lot of us understand. He said you don't
22:35 even have to come, Lord Jesus. Just speak the word and when
22:44 we speak the word in therapy, we are breathing life into
22:48 people and Christ himself remarked, I have not seen such
22:51 faith in all Israel. So, you know, when a Christian counselor
22:58 takes the word of God and uses it wisely it breathes life.
23:04 And I hear someone say can these bones live? Surely God you know.
23:11 If we use God's word in therapy there is no case at all that
23:17 cannot be revived and be redeemed to God and to a husband
23:24 or a wife. You are talking my language,
23:26 Desmond. Hebrews 4:12 the Bible says that the word of God is
23:32 alive and active. And Isaiah 55 verse 11 says it will not, if we
23:38 return his word to him it will not come back void because
23:41 Jeremiah 1:12 says he watches over his word to perform it.
23:46 So there is power in the word of God. I also always love to
23:51 put in Proverbs 18:21- The power of life and death is in
23:55 our tongue. So what you just said is when you speak the word
24:00 of God into someone's life you are speaking new life into them.
24:04 Because God's word is self- executing and the centurion
24:08 understood that. Many counselors today don't understand.
24:12 So you've seen the Lord resurrect...
24:16 Sure, dead marriages and make them alive.
24:21 Praise God! Now how long have you been married?
24:24 I've been married for 26 years.
24:26 Now Desmond were you a Christian before you were married or did
24:30 you become a Christian afterward?
24:31 No, I was not a Christian when I got married. I got married in
24:37 1981 and two years later I became a Christian and embraced
24:43 Christ. Now how long have you been
24:46 married, Desmond. I've been married for 26 years.
24:48 Twenty-six years. Now the first two years were not and then the
24:52 last 24 you have been, not a Christian I should say and the
24:57 last 24 you have been. Have you noticed a great difference when
25:01 you did become the redeemed of the Lord and as you grew in
25:05 grace in Jesus Christ has it made a great impact on your
25:09 marriage. Sure. Not only did I notice but
25:11 others around me noticed. My wife noticed, my children notice
25:17 I began to see my wife as a gift from God and to be nourished and
25:23 cherished beyond the tenants of my own feelings and I am
25:27 thankful to God for that. I've not always seen her that way
25:31 because I had a misconception of what marriage was but having
25:35 studied the word of God and understanding the word of God
25:39 made me a better person in marriage. Does that mean it's
25:43 all been a bed of roses? No not at all. We've had our ups and
25:48 downs but using the word of God as our measure, as our guide, we
25:52 have been able to adhere to what God asks us to do.
25:58 Amen, amen. It's so much more beautiful when Jesus is the
26:04 center of your marriage. The Bible tells us that a three-cord
26:09 or three, how does that say that? A three part cord cannot
26:14 easily be broken. So when Christ is the foundation for your
26:18 marriage it changes your outlook.
26:20 What happens inside makes you see things different on the
26:25 outside, that God is in your life.
26:27 You know, Desmond, I am so glad that you are going to be coming
26:31 back and we will be having Dr. Mattocks back. We're going
26:36 to be talking about the role of marriage in society today and
26:40 then we're going to be talking about the role of church in
26:44 redeeming and helping to redeem married couples. How long have
26:48 you been a Christian counselor?
26:50 Since 1984. I became a social worker and from there on I began
26:56 to look at it from a different perspective and it's been about
27:02 seven years. Seven years and I'm sure it's
27:05 been very rewarding. Well thank you so much. We really do
27:08 appreciate you coming all the way from Miramar and I
27:13 understand your daughter came up with you.
27:15 Yes, but she had to go back today.
27:17 Well I hope that you got to have the full tour of 3ABN.
27:21 It was a good experience.
27:23 Praise the Lord. Thank you so much for being here. I hope that
27:27 you will remember always that Jesus Christ paid a price for
27:32 you with his own special blood. That's how much he loves you and
27:37 that's how much your worth to the Father that he would send
27:40 how own son. You are the redeemed of the Lord if you've
27:43 accepted Christ as your Savior. Now may the grace of our Lord
27:47 Jesus Christ, the love of the Father and the fellowship
27:50 of the Holy Spirit be with you today and throughout the
27:54 rest of your life.