Participants: J.D. Quinn (Host), Mike and Gayle Tucker
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000262
00:29 Welcome to Issues and Answers.
00:31 We have a wonderful program.
00:33 today. We have a special couple
00:35 here. We're going to talk about
00:36 something that I guess pertains
00:38 to most everybody and that is
00:40 Date with a Mate in Mind. I always like to start off
00:45 with a scripture. Today's scripture comes from
00:47 Amos 3:3: Do two walk together unless they have agreed to do
00:52 so. I want to introduce you to my friends. Why I'm saying my
00:57 friends is because we have a Texas boy here and we have an
01:00 Oklahoma girl. Now the ones from Texas would understand what
01:04 we're saying here because she came across the Red River.
01:08 This is Pastor and Pastor Mike and Gayle Tucker. Welcome to
01:12 Issues and Answers. That you very much.
01:14 It's a joy to be here. Well thank you for being here.
01:17 I would like to start off by you just telling us a little bit
01:20 about each one of yourselves before we go into talking about
01:22 finding that special date.
01:24 You bet. Well, I pastor in Arlington, Texas but I'm also
01:28 speaker/director for Faith for Today and Gail and I have been
01:33 pastoring together there for about 14-1/2 year now.
01:37 And we really enjoy getting to work together. It's a blessing.
01:40 We've been married for 31 years
01:42 and (she was 12 when I married
01:44 her.) That's right. I was very
01:46 young of course. We have two
01:48 daughters. They are grown so we
01:49 are empty nesters now. But we really are blessed to be at the
01:54 Arlington church. It's a large church of almost 1,800 members
01:58 so it keeps us busy.
02:00 For the ones that are not familiar with the Arlington
02:04 church, that's in the metroplex. When we talk metroplex we're
02:07 talking about the Dallas/Ft. Worth, Texas area.
02:09 That's right, right between Dallas and Ft. Worth.
02:11 Yes and I think that as well as I understand the Dallas Cowboys
02:14 are going to be in your back yard there.
02:16 Yeah, they'll be in our back yard there, that's right, right.
02:19 So being that I'm from Texas you know I've just always been a
02:21 Dallas Cowboys fan. But that's not what we're here to talk
02:25 about today. No. We're here to talk about Date with a Mate in
02:30 Mind. Now being that the two of you talk in your seminars
02:35 with the youth and singles you certainly are talking about the
02:39 Issues of dating. So what are some of the things that you
02:42 tell these young Christian's about dating?
02:45 Well the first thing is to remember what the purpose of
02:47 dating is. Ultimately it is mate selection. Now there are other
02:51 purposes along with that, having fun and knowing how to
02:54 interact with the opposite sex, but ultimately this is the way
02:57 that we choose a mate; at least it has been in the western world
03:00 for about the last 100-120 years. So it's a rather recent
03:04 sociological phenomenon. It's probably not a very efficient
03:07 way of finding a mate, but if this is what we're stuck with
03:11 we need to find a way to do it well. And with that in mind,
03:15 we've kind of written 10 laws of dating. When we share these
03:19 with young people, it's amazing the response we get. But I also
03:23 find that people who have been singled maybe in their 40s or
03:26 50s or 60, when they follow these same laws they keep
03:30 themselves out of trouble. But anyway if you'd like we can
03:34 start with the laws. You want to do that.
03:36 I'd like to start there.
03:37 Well what we really discover is that people need to think ahead
03:40 of time. You need to make some decisions before you ever start
03:43 dating about what it's going to be like and what your boundaries
03:47 are and that sort of thing. So the very first thing is if it's
03:50 not easy and it's not fun, break up.
03:53 Amen. That's simple isn't it?
03:56 It really is because basically if you're struggling with
03:59 someone to make this thing work... I've had couples come
04:02 to me and say we've been dating now for six months and we've
04:04 really struggled to make this relationship work, would you
04:08 help us? And my answer is No! Break up. You've discovered that
04:11 it's difficult to be in relationship with each other.
04:13 So find someone with whom it's easy to have a relationship and
04:16 date them. But don't date each other. You can be friends but
04:20 don't date each other because that might lead to marriage and
04:23 then in marriage, if you're really struggling to make this
04:26 thing work you consume a lot of energy that could be spent
04:30 creatively elsewhere. So don't do that. Instead break up and
04:34 move on. And I think this tends to be
04:35 particularly true the younger you are. You know if you're
04:39 talking teenagers and high school and you're struggling
04:42 you know why? There's really no point in that. You've already
04:46 proven that it's not a good relationship so you know let it
04:50 go. Don't be too serious.
04:52 Find someone else with whom it's easy to have a relationship,
04:55 because dating should be easy. And really marriage should be
04:58 that way too. Now we know that at times it's not. Sometimes
05:01 there are things you have to work through, but that's a
05:03 committed relationship where the issues need to be worked through
05:08 but in dating that's not it. By definition it is an uncommitted
05:12 relationship and so if it's difficult, move on.
05:15 That second law is to date only from that circle of people you'd
05:19 consider marrying. Now there should be certain nonnegotiables
05:23 that you have, that you choose for a mate and among those, if
05:27 you're a committed Christian, you need a committed Christian
05:30 of about the same level of commitment. If one is really
05:34 committed and the other is not then basically that's being
05:37 unequally yoked together. So you need to have some of those basic
05:41 nonnegotiables, maybe someone who doesn't beat you; that would
05:45 be a nonnegotiable, I would think, you know. Someone who
05:48 you know you know you can trust, is not going to sleep around on
05:50 you. Basically you date from that group of people who would
05:54 potentially be a future mate.
05:57 And I think in this regard, you also have to think about what is
06:01 your spiritual commitment. Do you belong to the same
06:05 denomination? Do you see things the same spiritually? Do they
06:09 have the same type of habits that you do? Is this a person
06:13 who drinks or parties and that's not what you want? You know, you
06:17 have to make those decisions.
06:18 So your value system needs to be similar, yeah.
06:21 That's right. Because if you fall in love with a person, you
06:24 may think well I know I'm not going to marry them, but you're
06:28 running a risk of possibly falling in love with someone and
06:31 then you've got trouble.
06:33 By the way, one of the characteristics of love,
06:35 romantic love, is an ecstatic loss of judgment and so if
06:39 indeed you've fallen in love with someone who was not from
06:42 that circle of people who you might consider as a marriage
06:45 partner you run the risk of marrying someone that if you
06:49 had not lost your judgment you would never have dated, never
06:53 have married. So it's better not to start. Stay within that
06:56 group. I know that my mother preached
06:58 at me, well now I have a brother and sister also, don't go out
07:02 and date someone that you wouldn't think about marrying.
07:05 She was right. You know that was good advice. Of course, now I
07:08 realize. Of course back then we all wanted to do our own thing.
07:11 That's exactly right. But anyway that's law number two
07:16 Okay. Law number 3: If they use, abuse alcohol, prescription
07:20 medications, illegal drugs or mind-altering substances of any
07:25 kind, break up. You would agree with that?
07:29 Most certainly. Okay and a part of that is
07:32 because this is a value system but also over and over again
07:37 we've seen how an addiction to substances becomes the most
07:41 important lover in your life. You begin to choose that
07:45 substance over the people that you should be choosing in your
07:48 life. But there's another reason for this. The day someone starts
07:52 using and especially abusing substances that's the day their
07:56 emotional maturity stops. If you're 16 that day you start
08:00 using and you stop using when you're 38, chronologically you
08:05 are 38, emotionally you're 16.
08:08 I hope that everybody's listening to that right there.
08:10 It's so true. So if you marry someone thinking you're marrying
08:13 someone who's 28 when emotionally they're 16 you don't
08:18 want to marry somebody that you're married to. You want to
08:21 marry someone who has the maturity, the emotional maturity
08:25 So I guess that what you're saying is that it's very
08:28 important and people should not hesitate to find out a little
08:31 bit of history about someone because a lot of people may
08:35 think that they're past that but they need to just go back.
08:39 Oh yes, I did some recreational drugs or I might have been in a
08:43 party scene. That's something important to find out.
08:44 It is important to find out and then to find out what level of
08:48 recovery they've experienced. Because you know the Lord heals
08:51 and it's true that not everyone that has used in the past will
08:54 use in the future, but it's still something important to
08:57 know and certainly if they're doing this now this is something
09:00 you need to distance yourself some. Some people say will how
09:04 can I witness to them if I break up with them? And the truth is
09:09 that evangelism by dating is a very poor form of evangelism.
09:13 It never works. You instead become codependent, you become
09:17 a rescuer and that's unhealthy in the relationship.
09:20 It's an area where people tend to make excuses sometimes
09:23 because they want the relationship so badly that they
09:27 will look at it and say, no it's really okay. I know this exists
09:32 but we're going to make it through this. It's going to be
09:35 okay. I talked to a gentleman one time and he knew that the
09:39 person he was dating was an alcoholic. Somehow
09:43 the conversation turned to drinking and driving and he said
09:48 You know really she does well with that. He said, actually she
09:52 drives better than most people do when they're not drunk.
09:56 And I said, did you hear what you just said; that's not
10:00 possible. But he wanted the relationship so badly that he
10:05 was willing to make excuses and to place himself and her in a
10:09 very bad situation, because it doesn't help her, it doesn't
10:13 help him. Which brings us to law number 4
10:16 which I think is kind of a related law because it goes hand
10:20 in hand very often with drinking and substance abuse and that
10:24 is if either party needs to rescue, fix, or change or to be
10:28 rescued, fixed or changed, break up. Now that doesn't just occur
10:33 in situations of substance abuse Other people are rescuers or
10:39 fixers or changers without the
10:42 substances but it's an unhealthy way to love. We're talking about
10:46 codependency here; needing to be rescued or to rescue and if
10:50 that's occurring in the relationship, it's time to break
10:53 up and fix yourself. Get some help so that you don't fall back
10:57 into that sort of relationship. It's a sick love.
10:59 I know I've experienced some friends like that. They are
11:03 rescuers and bless their little
11:05 hearts, you know, their heart
11:07 was good. In fact most of the
11:08 time their heart is more precious than most people
11:11 but they always get themselves caught in a bind because of
11:16 rescuing, you know. Then they felt committed, then you spend
11:20 time, then there's that guilt that you have to overcome to
11:23 get past there because you've committed and they need you
11:25 then that's that codependency that you're talking about.
11:29 It's an area where it's easy for you to be pressured,
11:32 especially if you're thinking in terms of spiritual rescuing.
11:36 There are a lot of young women especially who think, oh I know
11:41 that he'll learn to love the Lord if I just stay with him and
11:46 I'm going to be his savior in a way. And it happens where he
11:51 puts the pressure on where he says you know I'm never going
11:54 to go to heaven if you don't stay with me; you've got to stay
11:58 with me. A lot of them use suicide.
12:00 I'll kill myself. You bet. What kind of a relationship is
12:05 that if you have to beg someone or I'll kill myself or I'm not
12:09 going to heaven without you. That's putting too much pressure
12:13 on a person. It's just an extremely unhealthy
12:16 relationship to be in. So how would you handle that?
12:18 Basically it's time to break up and then you begin to ask some
12:22 questions of yourself. What made me vulnerable to that kind of
12:26 relationship. Is this a pattern that I've repeated in my life?
12:30 And if so, maybe I need to seek some help so that I can love in
12:34 a healthy way rather than in an unhealthy way.
12:37 Because a lot of people get caught in that squirrel cage
12:39 don't they? You know they just repeat, repeat, repeat. They'll
12:43 continue to be a rescuer.
12:45 That's why second marriages fail at an alarmingly higher
12:48 rate than do first marriages. We repeat the same mistakes.
12:52 So someone says I'll never do that again. Well typically they
12:56 do and so second marriages and third marriages fail at an even
13:00 higher rate unless you identify what it was about me that caused
13:04 this relationship to fail. Not just my partner but me, so that
13:08 that can be fixed in me and I can move on to a healthy form of
13:12 love. I think that once you've
13:14 realized that you can't be the rescuer, you can't be the
13:16 savior, I think it's important then to say will how can I help
13:20 that individual and to funnel them to someone who can help
13:24 them because a dating relationship is not the place
13:27 for the help. And I think that's a very valid
13:30 point right there because people don't know what to do and
13:33 especially if they're young so then they get caught. So repeat
13:37 that. So they need then to turn that person to someone that's
13:41 more mature that they explain this so that there's an exit
13:44 strategy there that they can get out and go ahead with their
13:47 life. I actually had this happen when
13:50 I was a young person. There was a young man that I was dating
13:54 and he was just struggling with different things, alcohol and
13:58 things and I said you know I can't do that. But I had a
14:02 little bit of the rescuer in me you know and I was worried well
14:06 who's going to help, he's not going to go to heaven. But I had
14:10 a conversation with him finally. I said I cannot do this.
14:13 It's not going to work but there's this coach over here
14:16 and I know that he loves you and he can help you. So sometimes
14:22 you've just got to think about how can I help them and realize
14:26 that dating is not the way but there are people that can help.
14:29 Well I just know that the Holy Spirit is impressing me right
14:32 now that people out there need to hear that, that there is a
14:35 coach over there. You know, pass that baton over to them. They're
14:40 more mature and they can help them and you can be helped at
14:44 the same time. I just think that's so important because I
14:47 feel like a lot of people get trapped out there, at least they
14:50 feel like they do. He was a wonderful young man
14:53 and today he's strong in the Lord.
14:59 The other problem with this is that sometimes when you refer
15:03 them on that person will tank. They'll hit bottom and then you
15:06 begin to feel guilty. That is another symptom of the
15:09 codependent relationship that you've been in because the
15:12 decision was the other individuals who hit bottom;
15:14 it was their choice and not your responsibility, not your
15:17 fault so we need to identify that as false guilt and get rid
15:20 of it and move on. Are you ready for law number 5?
15:24 You bet man. This is good stuff.
15:26 Law number 5 says that if either party tends to control, dominate
15:32 or isolate the other party from friends or family, break up.
15:35 When you are in a situation where you realize you know I
15:39 haven't seen my family for a while. He never seems to want
15:43 to go there. He doesn't like my friends or she doesn't want me
15:47 to be with the people I've always loved. It's a red flag.
15:52 What's going on here?
15:53 I know that we just experienced up in our department a friend of
15:57 a friend that got engaged and then all of a sudden once they
16:02 got the engagement then all of a sudden the other party wanted
16:05 well we can't be around your parents. I want you to come over
16:09 here. You know there's that separation thing. Well boy the
16:12 red flag went up then and so within two weeks that
16:16 relationship was over. Thank goodness that she was bright
16:19 enough and that she was healthy enough to see that flag and get
16:23 out of it. I think that's key is having a
16:26 healthy spiritual life and a healthy outlook so that you do
16:29 recognize those things.
16:30 It is true that another symptom of romantic love is the desire
16:34 for exclusivity, you know, just the two of us, but when that
16:37 comes to the point where I'm going to keep her away from her
16:40 away from her family or her from her friends and I'm really
16:42 beginning to control his environment, that's extremely
16:45 unhealthy. Our solution to this is, first of all, break up and
16:50 some people say well when do you work out your love problems?
16:54 You work them out when you're not dating. Within in the dating
16:57 context this is not a good place to begin to work out your
17:01 problems. Stop dating, get help, get yourself straight, then
17:05 enter back into the dating relationship. But dating
17:08 actually confuses the process of your getting help and getting
17:13 "fixed" emotionally and spiritually. So it's usually
17:16 better to stop the dating process, put it on hold and say
17:19 all right, what led me into this and how do I need to fix this?
17:22 Boy this is something that you'd think ought to be taught
17:25 early in school because...
17:28 And marriage is a kind of on-the-job training kind of a
17:34 thing and it shouldn't be that way. We should learn beforehand
17:38 what our patterns are, what we're looking for in someone
17:41 else and that's what dating can accomplish but even then I think
17:45 we have to approach dating in a healthy way.
17:47 If you're going to make the biggest decision of your life
17:51 next to following Jesus Christ through this dating process,
17:54 you probably ought to have a plan in mind. You ought to know
17:57 where you're going and how you're going to get there and
18:00 that means there have got to be some guidelines or if you don't
18:02 have a direct course, you're going to end up who knows
18:06 where and that's not the kind of thing you want for a
18:09 marriage. No, no, you know there's a road
18:14 block before you ever get started. My goodness.
18:17 That's true. Well law number 5 is important but 5 is important
18:23 because it is a prelude to number 6. Where there is
18:26 controlling behavior very often then we get to number 6 and that
18:29 is if they are physically or verbally abusive, break up.
18:33 Usually in relationship that starts with control and then it
18:37 goes to physical or verbal abuse and anytime someone hits
18:41 anytime someone is verbally abusive, anytime they are
18:45 emotionally or spiritually abusive, you've got to get out
18:49 of this relationship. And how many times have we heard people
18:52 say well you know it really wasn't his fault, I made him
18:55 angry. Yeah, if I only had just stopped, if I hadn't done this
18:59 he wouldn't have hit or he wouldn't have what it happens
19:03 to be. That's the rationalization of a victim.
19:05 That is victim thinking. And when you find a person who is in
19:09 a marriage or a long-term dating relationship who is making
19:13 excuses for their partner who hits them or who verbally
19:17 abuses them they have taken on the victim mentality and it's a
19:20 very deadly form of thinking, something that's difficult to
19:24 break out of because we begin to excuse, we make excuses for,
19:28 we assume the guilt and the blame ourselves. That's victim
19:32 mentality and it's extremely unhealthy.
19:34 The sad thing today is how many young people there are that are
19:39 in dating relationships in high school or even junior high where
19:44 they are experiencing physical abuse from a boyfriend, a
19:47 girlfriend and they think it's just the way it is.
19:51 Statistics are alarming as to how many high school kids are
19:55 abused physically, even sexually and certainly verbally and
19:59 emotionally in a dating relationship and think that this
20:03 is okay or they stay with it for some reason.
20:06 So this is across cultural lines then?
20:08 Absolutely, absolutely. It's a sad situation.
20:12 It is a very sad situation and it's a very dangerous situation
20:16 because sometimes that controlling and then abusive
20:19 behavior can lead to something very, very serious. There are
20:23 men and woman who die every year as a result of this. You have
20:28 to be somewhat mentally unstable to be that kind of a controller
20:33 Certainly there is a lot of self doubt, there's a lot of
20:37 insecurity on the part of the controller and that's just a
20:40 very unstable situation in which to find yourself.
20:44 Some people say well he only hit me once. The truth is he will
20:50 hit, he has hit, he will hit again, don't kid yourself.
20:55 Don't think well I'll be better next time and this will be all
21:00 right. Break up. Let him get help or her get help and then
21:04 let them move on. But this is a hitter, because they have hit,
21:09 hitters hit. So move on at that point.
21:11 Do you find out that that might be learned behavior?
21:15 Oh yes. It usually is. Almost always. They have probably
21:19 experienced that themselves or at least witnessed it. They've
21:23 seen that as a way to get your way, to control the situation.
21:27 And at the very least you know you mentioned that sometimes
21:30 it leads even to death and things like that. At the very
21:34 least it's always going to lead to a loss of self-worth in the
21:38 person who's experiencing that in the victim and they begin to
21:43 see the world in a very unreal way that they are not worthy of
21:47 anything and I deserve this. They pass that on; you know in
21:51 a marriage relationship it passes on to children. The far
21:54 reaching effects are amazing.
21:56 Generation to generation, these things. The person who hits has
22:00 usually been abused. In fact, someone who is abused is five
22:05 times as likely to abuse as anyone else so if you find abuse
22:10 in your home your children are more likely to pass this on and
22:15 to carry the same characteristic That's why it's got to be nipped
22:19 here. So in 25 words or less if a
22:22 young man, let's just say, comes out of a home that his father
22:27 was a hitter and he chose not to do that but it may be innate
22:31 does he need to seek help at that particular time to divert
22:35 his aggressions. Chances are there will be some
22:38 signs of this going on in his life beforehand. There will be
22:42 an anger issue, some self-esteem
22:44 problems, maybe some history of
22:47 violence some place in order for
22:49 this to begin to reveal itself in a relationship. But it's
22:52 never a bad idea if you come from that environment to say
22:55 you know it's not a bad idea; let's get some help and do a
22:58 check up and just make sure that I'm all right.
23:01 The good news is that you can break the cycle. Yes. You know
23:04 it doesn't have to go from generation to generation.
23:06 You can be the person who makes that decision, it's not going
23:10 any further. It stops here. This can be a dynamic factor
23:14 rather than a static factor and so let's take those dynamic
23:18 factors, change them to the glory of God and move on.
23:21 Number 7 and this is one that I really think is important and
23:28 that is know how far is too far before you date.
23:32 Now there's not a person out there dating who doesn't know
23:35 exactly what I'm talking about. How far is too far?
23:38 I think the key word is "before"
23:41 and parents listening to this program you need to be aware of
23:46 this in training your children as they are young that they have
23:50 these decisions made. Because you can't make a good decision
23:54 in the heat of the moment. You have to make the decision
23:58 beforehand. I will go this far and no further.
24:02 If the first time that this thought occurs to you you're in
24:05 the backseat of a car, this is not a good sign. You're in
24:08 You're in trouble. I wonder if this is too far? That's a bad
24:11 sign. It's better to make that decision beforehand. When I
24:15 started dating Gayle, she had a reputation and the reputation
24:18 was she had very definite boundaries. The young men that
24:22 I knew who knew her said, Listen, she knows who she is,
24:26 she knows what her boundaries are. That drew me to her. If you
24:30 want to know the truth, it did.
24:31 You know I think the thing that created that though was having
24:35 parents and particularly having a father who was active in my
24:39 life, who allowed me to know that I was a person of value
24:43 because of my relationship with him and my beauty lay somewhere
24:48 else other than what someone could do on the back seat of a
24:52 car. So fathers, it's tremendously important that they
24:56 be active and a part of their little girl's life.
25:00 I hope all the fathers out there are listening to that right
25:03 there. That's true. The research bears
25:05 this out that if a father is close to his daughter it really
25:09 pays dividends for her future relationships, it pays dividends
25:14 in her maintaining virginity until marriage and purity until
25:18 marriage. And it pays dividends in her self-worth and then in
25:22 her ability to relate in a healthy way to a man in
25:26 marriage. Fathers are key in this. Some people have asked
25:30 me well Pastor how far is too far? My answer to this is young
25:34 ladies, any part of your body that you would not show to me
25:39 as a pastor is a part of your body that he should neither see
25:44 nor touch. What a wonderful rule. In fact, it worked.
25:49 They say there's not a lot I'm going to show to you pastor.
25:52 Well good. That's as it should be. So don't show it to him
25:55 either and don't let him touch it. You know that's reserved for
25:58 marriage. It's really that simple.
26:00 Well time goes by so fast. We've got two minutes left. Why don't
26:04 you take 90 seconds to give us the other two or three or sum
26:08 up. Okay. Law number 8: if you find
26:10 it difficult to talk or to be accurately understood or if you
26:14 find that you avoid unpleasant issues in the relationship,
26:17 break up. You've got communication issues.
26:19 Number 9: If you have been the victim of molestation, incest or
26:24 rape, get help before you date seriously because this will
26:27 affect every relationship in your life, especially marriage
26:31 relationships and intimacy in marriage.
26:32 And the last one is probably the most important of all is
26:36 just surrender your dating life and your sexuality to Jesus,
26:39 because he will be your guide and he will do it.
26:43 So that should be 1A, 2A and all the way through.
26:47 That should be all the way through.
26:48 So summarize them really quick in say 40 seconds.
26:52 In 40 seconds, if you're going to date you need to date to find
26:56 a mate and that means that you have to have a plan in mind.
27:00 Our 10 commandments here of dating or 10 laws of dating are
27:03 pretty good guidelines for you. You may add or subtract from
27:07 this, but you need a plan and a direction, a focus, so you'll
27:10 know where you're going, otherwise you're going to end up
27:13 who knows where. Yes, yes, I mean this is
27:16 absolutely fantastic and I know that a lot of parents and a lot
27:20 of kids out there have heard every word that you said.
27:22 This would be a good book.
27:24 Yeah, I'm working on it.
27:25 I imagine that you are working on it. We're are just so tickled
27:29 that you are here with us today. There are going to be additional
27:32 programs so I know that people will want to see. I think that
27:34 the next program that we're going to be doing is how to
27:38 select a Christian mate and that's something that everybody
27:39 would like to know. Anyway, we just want to thank
27:43 each one of you out there for watching Issues and Answers
27:46 today and we just ask that God bless you and just give you more
27:51 than you would ever think that would be possible.
27:53 God bless you. We love you.