Participants: J.D. Quinn (Host), Celesta Lee
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000254
00:30 Hello, I'm J. D. Quinn. We're with you today with
00:34 Issues and Answers
00:35 I have a special guest. Her name
00:38 is Celeste Lee. But before we talk to Celeste, I want to bring
00:42 out a scripture. 2 Chronicles 16:9.
00:47 This is one of my favorites because it fits all situations
00:51 and all occasions but it's especially going to fit
00:53 Celeste's situation today. For the eyes of the Lord run
00:58 to and fro throughout the whole earth to show himself strong on
01:03 behalf of those whose heart is loyal to him. As we progress
01:07 into this story, you're going to see how Celeste's heart has
01:12 always been strong to the Lord and how in the end he has always
01:17 been loyal to her. She just didn't realize it until later
01:20 rather than earlier. Celeste, how are you doing today?
01:24 I'm fine thank you.
01:26 It's wonderful to see you. Now I know that you're from Nebraska
01:30 and I know a few things about you but let's start off when you
01:33 were young. Where did Celeste get her start in life?
01:37 I was born and raised in South
01:40 Dakota in a Christian family and
01:43 I went to Christian schools
01:46 growing up. I had a very good
01:49 family life. I was brought up that it is very important how
01:54 we look, the appearance that we give, that anything that is
02:00 going on in the home is kept in the home, that God is very
02:04 concerned about every little move we're making and he's
02:09 always like that song says, Oh be careful hands what you do,
02:14 Oh be careful little feet where you go, for the father up above
02:18 is looking down in love. And that's kind of some of the
02:22 things I was brought up with, that idea.
02:25 Okay, so do you think that you had a relationship with the Lord
02:29 when you were young or did that develop later?
02:34 I would think that that developed a little later.
02:38 My idea of a relationship with the Lord was just behavior, was
02:43 how was I behaving, you know, was I being good enough, was I
02:47 accepted, was he going to reject me because I hadn't made every
02:51 little move right? Did I look the way he wanted me to, you
02:55 know, all of those things that came from some of the things in
02:59 my family background a little bit. But I think it was really
03:03 when I was older that I really developed that relationship with
03:06 God even though I had been around Christianity.
03:09 We're going to be talking today about anger. Now you certainly
03:15 in looking at Celeste, you'd wonder how in the world does
03:19 anger play a part in your life. Well, not only anger but we're
03:25 going to go to the 360 degrees away and rage. Now I know that
03:31 you are married to Ron. Now tell us a little something about Ron.
03:37 My husband is an, was, I need to say, an absolute rage-aholic.
03:43 I lived approximately 26, 27 years of my life not ever
03:48 knowing when he was going to go off or whatever he would go off
03:52 on; like constantly walking on egg shells. When he came home
03:55 was he going to come in that door in a good mood, was he
03:59 going to come in that door furious and never knowing why,
04:02 but always having the feeling that I was responsible for it in
04:07 some way, even though he could be mad at what happened in his
04:10 day when I wasn't around. But the fact that he was mad I was
04:14 still responsible for it and trying to always make sure
04:17 that everything was okay and never knowing where it was going
04:22 come from or be manifested. So I was always living in this
04:26 uncertainty and what was going on.
04:28 I think that you said earlier that your role in life as you
04:31 were brought up was to be the nice, quiet, little, Christian
04:35 lady. So here you were hiding behind this veil, you might say,
04:39 of not letting the outside know what was going on on the inside
04:43 of your home. Exactly, and always putting on
04:47 the front that everything is okay no matter what's going on
04:51 being totally codependent in the fact of always making an excuse
04:56 for him, you know, always covering up for him, all of
04:59 those things. I remember the one day we were going to church and
05:06 you know Satan really loves to start something when you're on
05:11 your way to church, that's for sure. We were going to church
05:17 and I was driving and Ron was just having one of his spit
05:21 spats at me and I just looked over at him and I thought, I am
05:25 sick and tired of listening to you just flap you jaw at me and
05:29 I just reached over and slapped him. I had never raised my hand
05:33 to him and he has never raised his hand to me. But he turned
05:37 around and slugged me in the jaw. That was the first time and
05:41 the only time that he ever did that. And I was just so shocked
05:45 that I pulled the car over and he just took that keys and got
05:49 out and walked off. Some car stopped and he got in and he
05:53 went home and I was just sitting in the car. I thought, well I
05:55 know there's going to be other people going to church that will
05:59 come along and see me and sure enough they did. I went through
06:03 church service, all the way through a potluck and singing
06:07 band with everyone saying to me, hi, how are you today and I
06:11 went fine. I never shed a tear, I never told anyone. I went
06:16 through that whole day like nothing in the world had
06:20 happened. Do you feel like a lot of people
06:22 live under that same umbrella?
06:24 Oh, I'm sure there are a lot of people who do that. It was
06:28 just totally not acceptable for me to show that anything had
06:33 happened. It wasn't until later that night when I was taking a
06:37 bath that I finally cried, the first time I showed any emotion
06:42 about that. That is how shut down I had become emotionally
06:46 from living like this.
06:49 Let's back up a little bit now. Did you realize this about Ron
06:54 when you married him?
06:55 I would have to say I did somewhat, but I always thought
07:00 Oh, you know, I can fix this. It'll be okay. If he's around me
07:06 and everything is nice, it'll be all right. You know, as women we
07:12 tend to do that a lot.
07:13 I think that's an issue that a lot of people face, that I love
07:18 them, my heart belongs to them and I know that I can make some
07:22 changes for them in their life. But the older I get, I find out
07:26 that is as false as can be. Getting married is the second
07:30 most important decision that we'll ever make. The first one
07:34 of course, is to choose to serve Jesus Christ. The second one is
07:37 who you're going to spend your life with and you certainly have
07:41 to be equally yoked and so many people out there are not.
07:44 My goodness, I don't think that anyone would have any idea that
07:49 the future development of your relationship would just be so
07:54 extreme. Exactly. I think one of the
07:57 things that I have learned in the last couple of years since
08:02 we have really gone and got what I call some tools so that we
08:06 know how to deal with these things is that the only person
08:11 I can change is myself and in changing myself then the other
08:15 person has a choice to step up to the plate with that or to
08:19 not. Where I spent to many years of my life was trying to fix
08:23 everyone else and make it okay for them and I can only make
08:26 choices for myself. That doesn't mean I don't care about that
08:31 person. I also remember the time that my husband met Sheree
08:36 Peters. She looked at him and she said why aren't you doing
08:40 prison ministry? And he said, because I can't go in there.
08:45 I'm afraid of what I might do. And that was a short exchange
08:49 and the next morning I picked her up, she had come to do a
08:53 women's conference for me, and I picked her up to take her back
08:55 to the airport and she got in the car and she goes, Well boy
08:58 your husband sure is a rage-aholic. That was the first
09:02 time I had ever heard someone put words to it and I cannot
09:06 tell you what an eye-opening event that was for me to know
09:11 that there was a name for that and that I wasn't just imagining
09:15 because you begin to imagine in your mind that you're only
09:18 dreaming this up. This isn't really what's happening and you
09:22 start to live in that false world of something must be
09:25 wrong with me and not what's reality and what's really
09:29 happening. So that was really an eye-opening experience for me to
09:35 realize that and then to begin to take steps from there to
09:40 learn more about why I would subject myself to that and why
09:45 he was that type of person.
09:47 Now in your perception, here you are under this Ron umbrella, and
09:53 I love the Lord, I was brought up in the Lord but I was taught
09:57 to keep my mouth shut. Now here on the opposite side is Ron; now
10:02 what was his perception? Was he brought up in the church?
10:07 He was raised in a Christian family as well and it was an
10:11 abusive family. His father beat him and his mother is very
10:15 abusive. So he just got to the point where if this is what God
10:19 is about, I don't want anything to do with it, so he walked away
10:23 from all of that for about 25 years. I stayed in the church
10:30 and I had my struggles. I do have to say about the time that
10:36 Sheree said that, I was to the point where I can remember where
10:41 I sat in study that I was like God, I'm going to have to choose
10:46 between really believing in you and not, because I've prayed and
10:51 prayed for years about the situation and nothing is
10:54 changing. So I can't stay in this relationship with you if
10:59 nothing changes, because it's not true, it's not really a
11:05 reality and I was really struggling with that when we
11:10 got some information that just really helped us understand
11:13 where we both had come from, what had been set up in our
11:17 lives to develop these scenarios in us and how we basically
11:21 matched each other. You know, I'd always been the one that
11:26 everyone would look at and say, oh, Celeste is just a fine,
11:30 sweet girl and what is she doing married to that Ron that just is
11:35 so insane. I remember going to a recovery seminar and the
11:41 people presenting that said that you marry your emotional equal.
11:46 I was like livid, one of the few times I had an emotion, because
11:50 there was no way I could be like my husband. They were
11:53 telling me I was as damaged as my husband and that was just
11:57 absolutely insane for me. But in my ways I was, but they were
12:00 just totally different ways.
12:02 So that was your next step. I mean now your coequals you might
12:08 say. What happened?
12:10 Really getting information on how those things in our early
12:16 childhood shaped the way we think and see things and working
12:21 with that with God's word and his help to have a healthy
12:26 relationship. So both of you were emotionally
12:31 damaged? Absolutely. I think everyone on
12:33 the planet is really because Satan has an agenda. He doesn't
12:37 want anybody to go through life totally healthy and he's going
12:41 to do what he can to set that up.
12:43 Okay, so now you met with Sheree At least you found out that
12:49 there is a definition. So now what do you do next and how does
12:54 Ron fit into this? You've come to a fork in the road. You're
12:57 sitting here saying boy Lord I just can't take this any longer.
13:01 I know that you have a plan for our life. I know that I've
13:05 always wanted to be in ministry. But I'm beginning to get a
13:07 little concerned whether this is really going to come into
13:10 fruition or not. I was so frustrated that
13:18 unbeknownst to my husband I had rented a storage unit. I was
13:22 moving things out and I actually had a day and time picked when
13:26 he was going to be out of town working for a couple of days.
13:30 I had gone through my house and written in a little notebook in
13:34 each room everything I was going to take and I was ready to
13:38 leave. Well, the day that he was to be out of town he came home
13:42 and I remember just being devastated. I was like crushed
13:46 and I was like crying to God, why are you doing this to me?
13:50 What's going on? As much as I hurt and as much as I didn't
13:57 want to stay I knew without a doubt God said stay. There was
14:02 no way I could doubt that. As much as I was depressed, I was
14:07 upset because I had finally made that decision to leave and not
14:12 live like this anymore and God said, No, stay. So then I did
14:16 put him in the crisis. I did say you know I'm going to leave if
14:21 you don't do something. So we went together to Ron and Nancy
14:25 Rockey's program called Binding the Wounds. Just really learning
14:29 about how to bind those childhood wounds that Satan had
14:33 set up. You know, our parents didn't do anything. They're not
14:38 bad parents. They only lived out the best that they had.
14:43 And that's really important, because it's not about dumping
14:48 on anyone. It's about Satan does not want us in the image of God.
14:52 And he's going to do everything he can to stop that. If he could
14:56 have destroyed our marriage, there is no way we would be
15:00 doing what we're doing today, touching lives. I am passionate
15:04 about reaching out to a woman who is suffering under any kind
15:07 of abuse whether it's physical or emotional. You know, there
15:12 were times, because Ron was very verbally abusive with his rage,
15:16 there times that I would actually wish that he would hit
15:21 me because then I would have proof of what was happening.
15:25 I could walk out the door and say see. Where if it's verbal
15:30 the door can open and there can be a smile and no one will ever
15:34 believe what's happening. So I'm really passionate to reach out
15:38 to women that I know are struggling with some of those
15:41 same things. God sets that up so cool. He's so awesome in how he
15:45 puts people in our paths that we can reach out and encourage.
15:49 Well it's like the text 2 Chronicles 16:9.
15:53 For the eyes of the Lord are going to and fro to be there for
15:57 the benefit of the ones that
15:59 need help. So you know he had his eye on you all the time.
16:03 He had his eyes on Ron all the time, because this certainly is
16:07 a supernatural timing that Ron showed up that day when you were
16:11 prepared to go a different direction. So now you have
16:15 children? We have one daughter.
16:17 Okay, how has this affected her?
16:20 Um, that's probably the part
16:22 that hurts. You can take a lot
16:26 abuse yourself, but when you see
16:29 your child in an environment that you know is not the best
16:33 that's really hard. Now that we have changed a lot we still see
16:38 some of those effects that we know that our damage caused in
16:43 her even though just like I mentioned, it was certainly not
16:48 intentional. We did not do that intentionally. But she's
16:53 watching us and growing.
16:55 Well you know the Bible is certainly clear on the
16:57 generational sins. So it seems like especially in Ron's case
17:02 his father was dysfunctional, Ron was dysfunctional so you
17:06 just hope that Psalms 129:4 says Cut the cord of the wicked, you
17:12 know, so that you'll break that generational sin. So from a
17:19 ministry standpoint what is your ministry? I know from our
17:24 conversation earlier that you and Ron have a ministry now,
17:29 but before I go there, when did Ron make a change in his life
17:34 and how did that affect you? Then we'll go into the ministry.
17:38 When we actually went to the two day Binding the Wounds program
17:43 when we went to that, the second halfway through that he walked
17:47 out and he turned to me and he said, (we were going to lunch,
17:51 he didn't walk out and leave) and he turned to me and he said,
17:55 I feel like I'm walking on Air Jordan's times 10. He goes, I
17:59 finally understand why I have been angry all these years.
18:03 He had no understanding of that before and simply understanding
18:07 that gives you so much power to make a change and that was
18:13 incredible for us. He was so filled with anger that when we
18:20 went to that seminar, Ron Rockey leaned over to his wife and said
18:24 this guy won't last a half an hour. So the next time we
18:28 went back he told us, he said, I have to tell you guys
18:31 something and he told us that he had said that. He said the Lord
18:35 just proves me wrong again, but I did not give him even a half
18:38 an hour to sit in here.
18:40 This must be an intensive counseling session. I mean if
18:44 it's two days and I'm just guessing Ron might have been 40
18:49 years old at this particular time. So I mean he has 40 years
18:52 old at this particular time. So he has 40 years of becoming who
18:55 he is. Closer to 50, I think.
18:58 Okay 50 years. This is who he was because we become what we
19:03 behold. So now you're saying in two days. So the Holy Spirit had
19:07 to be present there. First of all that Ron became vulnerable
19:11 enough so that he allowed the Holy Spirit to come in and make
19:15 some changes in his life. Now as you're sitting there going
19:20 through this counseling session did you have glimmers of hope?
19:23 Did you begin to see some changes there or did the changes
19:27 come later? Simply the fact that he
19:30 recognized was a huge glimmer of hope and I was struggling
19:35 personally because going back to the idea that I had always
19:39 been in the church, I had always been the "good" one because I
19:43 didn't have anything on the outside that people looked at.
19:46 I think that's really important because God wants our hearts
19:50 and if our heart is fill of deceitfulness and envy and
19:54 bitterness. You know we're angry at someone even though it's
19:59 hidden in our heart, where Ron just wore his on his sleeve so
20:03 everybody in the world knew it and I hid everything. So I was
20:08 having to face that about myself and it wasn't an instantaneous
20:13 scenario although we did learn enough in those two days to say
20:19 this is something we can do. There is hope here. We can
20:21 follow this path. It's still a growth for me. Even in the last
20:27 week or two there are times when I will not want to say something
20:32 to Ron because I'm afraid he's going to go off in a rage and
20:36 I'm like no it's okay. I can say this and so I will step up to
20:41 the plate and for me that's a huge step to open myself up
20:46 because I live behind walls so deep. But to open myself
20:52 up and say no this is what I see this is what I feel, that's just
20:57 huge and that's still a growth process of day by day learning
21:03 to trust more, learning to take that chance. And taking the
21:08 chance is awesome because 9 times out of 10 it works out.
21:14 Sure there are those times but it's so much better than living
21:17 behind the walls, so much better.
21:19 So now three years have gone by. Where are you standing now?
21:26 I understand you're coming up here the last three or four days
21:31 you know you're still battling these things but from God being
21:36 the center or the focal point of your life is it different?
21:42 It's totally different and for me it's learning to really trust
21:48 God. You asked about ministry and it's a way of explaining
21:51 that I also work, Ron and I have a ministry, and I'll share about
21:56 that, but I also work with Maasai Development Project which
22:00 is a non-profit in states and registered in Kenya as well.
22:04 We work with the Maasai people. I was just in Africa for two
22:09 weeks. When you go to Africa it's like you just live with God
22:14 I don't know how else to describe it but when we're here
22:18 in the states for me there's always somebody I know to call.
22:22 There's always a policeman on the corner. There's always some
22:25 organization, there's always something. Over there there's
22:29 not and you learn to trust in God. You learn to develop that.
22:32 This time when we were there we were having some difficulties
22:35 and the time that we spent in the word and the time that we
22:39 spent praying and the things that God revealed to us and
22:42 shared with us were just so incredible that it becomes that
22:47 relationship. It's not about every little thing you do; is it
22:52 right or is it wrong; it becomes am I trusting God? What does it
22:58 say in his word? Am I following that? I have a couple scripture
23:03 songs that tend to float around in my mind sometimes, but hymns
23:08 don't usually do that. One night we were really struggling with a
23:13 problem with another organization. We'd been praying
23:16 about it and I crawled in bed and all of a sudden "Tis So
23:19 Sweet to Trust in Jesus was going through my mind, all the
23:23 verses, the chorus, just over and over and over and I just
23:27 laid in bed and grinned because it was like God, you're so
23:31 awesome. It's that kind of thing rather than am I doing
23:35 everything right? Is God going to zap me because I did one
23:38 thing wrong. And it becomes trusting him and what do you
23:42 want me to do? And that is just so different than that waiting
23:47 for God to zap you because you made one wrong move.
23:50 That's called relationship, that's called reciprocation.
23:54 Draw near to me, Celeste, and I'll draw near to you. So I can
23:59 see that working in you. Now yours and Ron's ministry is?
24:04 Abundant Life Ministry. And what does that entail?
24:08 We discussed quitting our jobs.
24:14 But you know what we've
24:15 discovered. We both are
24:17 independent contractors in the
24:21 the housing business, that God sends us places to people that
24:25 need the information that we have; that we need to share him
24:31 with those people. So our ministry is not as much about a
24:36 specific ministry like we think about a lot of times. Yes, we
24:40 have facilitated the Binding the Wounds and yes we do speaking
24:44 at times but it's really about that one on one with others.
24:48 It's about reaching out to those people that are in our life,
24:54 that God places in our life and how can we help them. For me
24:59 it's about praying. God has really given me the gift of
25:04 intercessory prayer and it is so awesome to pray for people
25:07 that don't really believe in God and share that with them
25:11 that you're praying for them. For instance, I have a friend
25:15 who just had colon cancer and had surgery and I was praying
25:19 for her. She later told me, she said, you know, I just think you
25:22 really have a direct link and now that's made a direct impact
25:26 on her life. And I hear her saying little things like, well
25:30 I sent up a few words to God about this or that. So it's just
25:34 walking through your life and being willing to share what he
25:37 has done for you whenever you can and watching for those
25:41 people that are hurting. There are so many hurting people out
25:44 there and they hide behind so many things.
25:47 Amen. But you understand what that's like.
25:50 I understand what that's like.
25:52 Exactly right. And you know Ron knows what it's
25:54 like to hide behind the anger so no one can get close and I
25:58 know what it's like to hide behind looking and behaving well
26:02 and all of that. Yet there's still that emptiness behind
26:06 that. Yes. Well I know that you're a
26:09 lovely couple and I just hope that you are working things out
26:15 together and that you are becoming true representatives
26:18 of him and Him of course with a capital H.
26:21 Absolutely because without that there's nothing. That is for
26:26 sure. Yes. I know that you're full of
26:33 wisdom because I can see the wisdom behind those eyes there.
26:36 If you could take maybe about 30 or 45 seconds and talk into
26:39 the camera and just tell women out there that are hurting that
26:42 have different issues that they are dealing with, what would you
26:44 tell them? I would tell them to not be
26:47 afraid to make a change in themselves, to not be afraid to
26:51 really truly trust God. Step up to the plate with him. Ask him
26:56 what he wants you to do. Be willing to hear that still,
26:58 small voice and be willing to ask someone for help if you need
27:02 help. Don't be afraid and don't be ashamed of anything that's
27:05 going on in your life. Know that there is somebody out there who
27:08 cares about you and will listen to you.
27:10 Amen. Well this has absolutely been a wonderful time, Celeste,
27:14 that we can sit and visit together. I know that God has
27:17 a special work for you to do yet in this world. So I just want to
27:21 thank you for being here. I know that the people that are out
27:26 there appreciate what you have said and that they will send
27:30 their prayers for you. I just want to thank each one of you
27:34 for being here today, for listening to us and I just
27:37 want to close with this particular scripture.
27:41 It's Psalm 4:4: In anger do not sin and when you are on your
27:49 beds search your hearts and be silent.
27:51 Thank you Jesus for being with us