Issues and Answers

How To Have Meanful Couple Communication

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Paul & Carolyn Rayne


Series Code: IAA

Program Code: IAA000227

00:28 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn and welcome again to
00:30 Issues and Answers. We're going to be talking today
00:34 about how to have a happy home in an unhappy world.
00:38 Let me share this Scripture from Ephesians 4:32.
00:41 I'll be reading from the Amplified [Version].
00:43 It says: "Become useful and helpful and kind to one"
00:47 "another, tender hearted, compassionate, understanding,"
00:51 "and loving hearted, forgiving one another readily and freely,"
00:55 "as God in Christ forgave you." Our special guests today
01:00 are Carolyn and Paul Rayne, and you are from Eureka, Montana,
01:06 -with Restoration International. - That's right, thank you
01:08 - for having us back again. - It's a joy. Please tell us
01:11 a little bit about the ministry that you are
01:13 - the general manager for. - Restoration International is a
01:17 small family ministry based up there in the northwest corner
01:20 of Montana, USA, we travel all over the world, particularly
01:25 around the US, giving church seminars and family
01:28 camp meetings. Some of the things we'll be sharing today
01:32 have first been shared at family camp meetings,
01:35 that's where we run from Wednesday evening through
01:38 to Sunday morning, just sharing the practical, everyday
01:44 "how tos" of living a useful, Christ centered life.
01:49 We have all walks of life come there, Christians,
01:52 non-Christians, the Bible is open and the Bible is spoken
01:58 of, but really what we're talking about is the practical
02:01 "how tos" of living happy, useful homes; especially as it
02:05 applies in the marriage, and as we'll be talking today,
02:08 in the family.
02:10 I just want to take this moment to tell our
02:13 audience that if you would like to find out more about their
02:16 family camp meeting, I've got a wonderful
02:19 little DVD in my hand and it'll give a lot of testimonies
02:22 how much the children enjoy this experience, and the parents
02:25 as well, and you can go to their website at:
02:28 "www.restoration-interational. org", or you can call
02:36 toll free 888-446-88-44, let me repeat that:
02:43 888-446-88-44. So today we're going to be
02:47 talking about how to have a happy home in an unhappy world.
02:54 I know that you mentioned earlier that it's the atmosphere
02:58 in which we live, we want to create a better atmosphere
03:02 in our homes, so what do you mean by atmosphere?
03:08 We like to share, practically speaking, and we would
03:13 class ourselves as earnest parents. I know there's very
03:16 many different kinds of parents, some parents are just casual,
03:19 some are very intense, some are laid back.
03:23 Certainly we're not laid back, and we found our self becoming
03:26 more and more intense in our parenting: "Don't do this",
03:30 "You must do that", and we realized that the joy
03:35 of the Christian home was disappearing under a mass
03:38 of dos and don'ts. It dawned on us,
03:46 it came suddenly, but we were praying for a long time,
03:49 "Lord, there is something missing in our family,"
03:52 "what is is?" Many people looking in from
03:55 the outside would think that we had a family with our
03:58 2 young children that had it made, but we knew behind
04:02 closed doors that it was a lot of chastisement
04:07 of the children, a lot of coaxing them in the right
04:09 direction, a lot of the firmer measures, and we realized
04:16 something must be missing. Finally it dawned on us
04:19 what was missing was what we now call "sunshine".
04:23 When we started thinking about sunshine, we mean by that:
04:27 happiness, cheerfulness, kindness, contentment,
04:31 all those things that you just associate with a sunny day.
04:37 Then we began to realize that the atmosphere in our home,
04:40 and I know because of the many people that we've spoken to,
04:44 the atmosphere in many homes is more cloudy.
04:50 Do you want to explain what I mean by cloudy?
04:53 Just the life going on, negative discussions, or negative
05:01 attitudes, but no cheerfulness, no happiness, no joy,
05:04 just life "blah" kind of happening.
05:07 - Just like a cloudy day. - Yeah.
05:10 Then I imagine there's some very stormy homes out there too.
05:13 - Yes. - Well, we began to realize
05:16 how much home atmosphere paralleled the atmosphere
05:19 of the heavens out there, and we're all very familiar with
05:22 talking about the weather, but how much do we look at
05:24 the atmosphere that actually happens in our homes
05:27 on an everyday basis? We began to see the parallels
05:30 - between those 2. - Yeah, because you have
05:33 a cloudy day and it's really not a bad day,
05:35 but it's not a good day, it's just a cloudy day.
05:38 And that can be the same in the home, it wasn't a bad day.
05:41 it wasn't a good day, it was just one of those "blah" days.
05:44 But then if you get lots of clouds, you end up with
05:46 a storm in the atmosphere, but also in the home.
05:51 We have had that, where the clouds get thicker and thicker
05:55 and the Son, and now you know which Son I'm talking about,
05:59 the Son of God, the Son gets blocked out by all those
06:02 selfish clouds, and the clouds get thicker, and then there
06:05 starts to be clashing of clouds, thunder and sparks,
06:11 and loud noises. This is very typical,
06:15 even in Christian homes. When we go to church, of course,
06:20 you know, "Happy Sabbath", "Good to see you",
06:22 and everything's nice, but what we're trying to focus on
06:27 in our issues and answers together is what goes on
06:30 behind closed doors, the atmosphere at home.
06:34 Of course, if you have a storm, most often of you get rain
06:38 with that as well. We have had it,
06:41 we have had the rain of tears coming down our cheeks,
06:45 or maybe down the cheeks of our children if we've spoken
06:48 harshly to them, and we think "I really shouldn't have"
06:52 "said that", and I might see my little daughter with a tear
06:55 in the corner of her eye, and that was a real wake-up call
06:57 for me, we need, by God's grace, to have sunshine
07:01 at home, not all these clouds, not all these storms.
07:05 I like the analogies that you're using, but let's go a little bit
07:10 further, you've described some of the atmospheres,
07:13 what do you mean when you talk about sunshiny home,
07:16 give us some practical examples of what a sunshiny home
07:20 is all about.
07:22 A sunshiny home is really not complicated to understand
07:27 theoretically or intellectually, and it might seem nothing
07:33 in comparison, but when it's experienced in the home
07:36 it's a whole different atmosphere, what we mean
07:40 by sunshine is just kindness, that's "Aww, we all know"
07:46 "about kindness, let's move on", but we could spend hours
07:50 just talking about the practical "how tos" of kindness,
07:55 or being considerate, one to another,
07:59 being tender hearted, like we read in Ephesians when we
08:03 - started. - ...Or courtesy.
08:05 -Courtesy, just common courtesy. -Speaking in a courteous way,
08:09 we'd do it to a stranger, but do we do it in our own homes?
08:12 I was just getting ready to say that often people are much
08:15 more kind, courteous, and patient with strangers
08:18 than they are with those they love the most, and are living
08:21 with at home.
08:22 We let our guard down at home too easily.
08:27 There's almost a formal politeness "Hello, how are you?"
08:31 "Good to see you, haven't seen you for a while",
08:34 that's fine, that's real life, but then to turn round
08:38 to the children: "children, would you please be quiet!"
08:44 If we can have enough of the Lord to be pleasant to people
08:47 that we see once a week, or once a month, then surely
08:51 for those very people that share the same roof with us,
08:54 the same home, we should be seeking the Lord for a kinder,
09:00 more considerate way of having interrelations in the home.
09:04 How are some ways, give us some examples of a sunshiny home.
09:09 Even before I do that, I want to encourage our viewers
09:12 that we don't share this because we live in wall to wall sunshine
09:15 24/7, we're talking about the reality of our home,
09:20 that's why we came to this realization, because of
09:23 our own need. No, sunshine doesn't shine
09:26 24/7 in our home, though by God's grace we know it can.
09:30 We're striving for it too, but we are very aware of our need
09:33 and we begin to realize that if we feel this, we know
09:36 that our viewers do too, and that's why we want to share it.
09:39 Some of the practical are just things like, for example,
09:42 my husband goes down to the ASI convention once a year
09:46 and when he's gone for that week, sometimes that it may
09:48 take there and back and be there, he likes to leave
09:52 some of his sunshine behind. One particular time,
09:55 I'll never forget it, I didn't know if he'd left notes,
09:58 or cards, or what he'd done, but on this occasion
10:00 he'd taken a pencil, just a regular lead pencil,
10:03 and he'd gone around in my kitchen, and everything
10:06 that was white plastic had a heart drawn on it in pencil.
10:09 The microwave, the toaster, the kettle, the dishwasher,
10:13 the blender, and I kept finding these hearts wherever I went
10:16 in my kitchen. What did that do for me?
10:19 It brought up my spirits, put a smile on my face every time,
10:22 and you know, I left them there for at least 6 months,
10:25 I didn't erase them it was so precious; and when the children
10:28 would see it what message did it give to us:
10:31 "Daddy loves us, daddy's thinking of us",
10:33 it was just something that simple, costs no money
10:37 whatsoever, just a little bit of time, or maybe it's things
10:40 like, something that we really enjoy doing together
10:43 as a family is canning together. Just a couple of years ago
10:45 we brought like 250 pounds of apples and we canned
10:48 apple sauce. It would have killed me
10:51 to do it on my own, and never could I have done it with
10:54 just the children, but we did it as a family, together,
10:57 it bought joy into the family. Yes, it was hard work,
10:59 but we're still eating that apple sauce right now.
11:03 It was just a fun thing to do together.
11:05 I remember another occasion, what we're trying to share
11:08 is just simple, practical things. Don't do just the exact
11:12 same thing we do, we're just trying to stimulate the thoughts
11:16 that we can come outside of our little box of normal life
11:19 and think of those in our household.
11:23 One time I was coming out of my office, which is in
11:26 the basement of our home, and my children were outside
11:29 playing in the snow. As I shared, we live in
11:31 the northwest corner of Montana, and winter can see the snow
11:36 long and thick, so you have to make something fun
11:39 out of all that fluffy stuff. So what we did was,
11:44 the snow was about 2 or 3 feet thick down one bank
11:47 on our property, and I took the time to get the snow shovel out
11:52 and make some shoots down the steeper parts.
11:56 They were quite high, so the snow was 2 feet high on
12:01 the sides of these shoots, and when we got the sled
12:05 and I took my children and I pushed them down that thing,
12:08 we actually made a little jump at the bottom.
12:10 Now, it took me time, I have a desk that is always
12:15 piled with things to do, but if I just spend all my life
12:21 trying to clear my desk, then by the time I'm 60,
12:24 if the Lord hasn't come, my children will be married
12:26 and gone, and I will never really have known them or had
12:29 the opportunity to bring some sunshine into their life.
12:33 So it's only a miracle, I can tell you, because it's not
12:35 natural, but as I went outside I thought, I can spend
12:38 an hour with the children, so we made these snow shoots,
12:41 we went down them, we made the jump, we made the jump bigger
12:44 and they were flying through the air, then they wanted me
12:47 to get the video camera on them and it was a time
12:50 that we still talk about to this day: "Shall we do"
12:53 "the snow shoots again this year?"
12:55 But it binds their little hearts to ours, and it brings
12:58 sunshine, just simple sunshine, into the home.
13:02 Or it might be as simple as lying on the rug
13:05 with your little boy pushing trucks around, or playing
13:08 Legos, something that brings sunshine to each other,
13:11 but to them as well. And it might only be 5 minutes
13:14 here and 10 minutes there, but what it creates when you're
13:17 consistent with it, is the cheerful, contented, and happy
13:20 atmosphere of the home, and that's what our burden was,
13:23 we realized that often we're thinking about prophecy,
13:28 things that are going to happen in the future, to the neglect
13:31 - of the present. - That's very good.
13:33 We're never going to be part of the future unless we
13:36 concentrate on creating the present to meet the future.
13:39 Amen. So why do you think that
13:43 so many homes lack this sunshine?
13:48 What's the root cause?
13:50 It's the same old problem that plagues us everywhere
13:53 we go, it's that selfish old man, the carnal nature,
13:58 it's just not natural, at least not for this father and this
14:02 mother to say: "Oh, I've got a hundred things to do,"
14:04 "but never mind, I'm just going to kick back and play"
14:07 "with the children." Maybe some will find
14:10 that natural, but for me it's just not natural,
14:13 so it's that old carnal man, he stops us being cheerful,
14:17 he stops us being helpful, and what happens is we tend
14:22 to get focused on me and my agenda: "I've got this to do..."
14:29 and "Children, if only you understood."
14:32 Well, I think it's us that needs to understand a little more
14:35 of what goes in. For anything that we do in life
14:39 it takes effort, if somebody wants to get a business
14:41 off the ground, it's known by everybody, he's going
14:45 to have to put in a couple of years of really going
14:48 at it to get that off the ground.
14:50 Well, what about a Christian home?
14:52 If we really want our Christian family to fly and to be
14:56 a shining light, then we have got to seek the Lord
14:59 to give us the grace to bring that into the family
15:03 in a tangible way, it won't just happen.
15:05 One thing that I appreciate about both of you,
15:09 both Carolyn and Paul, is that you are very practical
15:13 and you like to put things into practical terms,
15:16 so what are some practical "how tos" for families
15:19 who are watching now, that say: "this makes sense,"
15:21 "and we want a little more sunshine in our life."
15:25 Taking the time as a family to consider the subject
15:28 of the atmosphere in the home, you know, as we've said,
15:31 as Christian we think about what is coming before us
15:35 in this world, but do we really think what's going to happen
15:38 today in our home? And we began to be
15:40 very sensitive to that, so I would encourage our viewers:
15:43 spend time as a family, sit down together as a family
15:46 and talk about what is it like in our home?
15:49 Do we like what it's like? And if we don't, what steps
15:53 are all of us going to take together to start to change
15:56 that? That was something that was
15:58 really practical in our home, so we'd like to encourage that.
16:04 We do that fairly regularly, we sit down as a family,
16:06 we call it family board meetings, all businesses
16:09 and schools, they have a board, and I sit on several boards
16:13 and I thought: "How come we're organizing everything else"
16:17 "and we're not organizing our own family?"
16:20 So I instituted family board meetings, I'm the chairman,
16:23 my 9 year old daughter is seeking for that position,
16:27 but I told her she'll never have it, she can be the secretary
16:31 maybe, but she's not going to be the chairman.
16:34 One evening we were talking about family atmosphere
16:37 and what we found was happening was we all liked the idea
16:42 and we all did it occasionally, but the experience
16:45 was escaping us on a regular basis, so Carolyn asked
16:49 the question: "what can we do to help remind us?"
16:53 And then we came up with this idea of a box,
16:55 it was a heart shaped box and every time somebody did
16:59 something loving in the family, maybe one of the children
17:04 did something for the parents, or whatever,
17:07 they would put a heart shaped foam in the box.
17:11 Well, as we were thinking about that, now we're in our
17:13 family board meeting trying to figure out a name
17:16 for this box, we can't just call it "the box".
17:19 So we're thinking of "the sunshine box",
17:21 or "the heart box", "the love box", and all of a sudden,
17:26 he was 6 at the time, our 6 year old son says:
17:29 "Daddy! Let's call it 'the sunshine love box' ".
17:34 "That's it, that's what we'll call it". So now it sits in
17:37 our home, sits on the coffee table, the convenience table,
17:42 and as soon as we instituted this, we have little children
17:46 remember, and we've shared this at some of our family camp
17:50 meetings, we've had mothers come back to us and say:
17:52 "I had teenagers", and teenagers themselves, "enjoy such a"
17:57 "simple thing." What happens is every time
18:00 we do something kind we put it in the box,
18:02 and when the box is full we do something very special
18:05 as a family that we wouldn't normally do.
18:08 Maybe we'll go on a canoe trip together, or take a special
18:13 trip out that's outside of the normal routine.
18:17 And soon after we implemented this love box,
18:19 I was knelt down in our living area next to the wood stove
18:25 and I was praying there, I was not actually praying out
18:28 loud, I was just praying in my mind, and I became very
18:32 aware that somebody is stood right by me, isn't that
18:34 amazing how you know somebody is there even though
18:37 your eyes are closed and at a convenient point in the prayer
18:40 I opened my eyes, looked up, and there was my son,
18:44 my 6 year old son at the time. He had the biggest smile
18:47 on his face, I said "Caleb, tell me about it",
18:50 he's just bursting to say something.
18:53 He said: "Can I put a love in the box?"
18:56 And I said: "Why?" He says: "You know you showed"
19:00 "me how to make my bed, well I made my bed,"
19:02 "and then I was coming out of my bedroom", which is right
19:05 opposite his sister's bedroom, "and I looked in her room"
19:08 "and she hadn't done her bed, so I went in and did it."
19:11 And I thought "Oh, bless his heart", he was so excited
19:15 that he had done something kind for his sister.
19:18 Because he knew, he understood, what we were meaning
19:21 about this atmosphere, and how each one of us
19:24 with the little things that we do could affect a change
19:27 in that atmosphere, and he understood it,
19:30 - even at 6 years old. - That's precious, and it is
19:33 little things that make a difference, isn't it?
19:35 - It really is. - Often times we think
19:38 as men, and I'm sure there's a lot of men, when they think
19:41 "Do something kind for the wife", it's got to be flowers,
19:44 but I have often times just sat at my desk, and maybe
19:47 I'm on the phone and I've just got a pair of scissors
19:50 and a sticky note and I'm just cutting out a heart,
19:54 or to tell you the honest truth, sometimes I haven't
19:56 even got scissors to hand, so I kind of fold the paper
19:59 in half and tear out a heart, and then when I'm off
20:02 the phone I'll just go and I'll stick it on her shoulder
20:05 or stick it in the kitchen, or whatever,
20:08 just to let her know: "Sweetie, I'm thinking of you."
20:12 And it's so small that I'm sure some of our viewers
20:16 will be tempted to think: "Ahh, you don't know our home,"
20:20 "that's never going to change our home", well, try it.
20:24 I challenge you, try it and see, and you'll be amazed
20:27 because life is made up of those little things, and all of
20:31 a sudden you'll find somebody who wouldn't talk to you,
20:34 or somebody who always gave you a hard time,
20:37 the Bible calls it "heaping coals on the head",
20:41 all of sudden you'll find them responding in a sweeter way,
20:44 but even if they don't, don't do it for that reason,
20:47 do it for the Lord.
20:49 Amen. You know, I still have
20:52 a drawer full of things that my husband has done like that,
20:55 just little notes that I just can't part with
20:58 that he would leave when he was going out of town,
21:00 stick them under my pillow, or on a pillow, or something.
21:03 I had one quite embarrassing moment, I guess it was;
21:06 I was sharing a room with the Vice President of our
21:09 conference and we were at ASI together and I pulled out
21:12 my shirt out of my bag that my wife had packed for me
21:16 and I didn't know, but out with the shirt came all these
21:20 foam loves, all over the floor, all over the place
21:25 and I held it up and I said to my friend:
21:27 "Well, I guess my wife and family are thinking of me."
21:31 And he found them for the rest of that week because they
21:33 were tucked in every little corner that we could put them,
21:36 and you know, the beauty is, as you engage,
21:39 and I really want to encourage our viewers, this is not
21:42 just what you have the children do, this is what you
21:45 participate in with your children.
21:48 If you say: "Children, this is your love box and you go"
21:51 "ahead and fill it", it'll never get off the ground,
21:53 you've got to be there with them, involved in it.
21:56 So I said to the children "what shall we do for daddy's"
21:59 "suitcase?" And they then get
22:02 the enthusiasm, they rush off to get the little hearts,
22:05 and they're making little pictures, and one time
22:07 Caleb put one of his soft toys in there in daddy's suitcase,
22:10 and all kinds of things daddy went with.
22:13 But you know, the children are engaged, and they're
22:15 involved, and that's what makes the difference.
22:18 Parents, we can't just give this package to our children
22:21 and say: "Go ahead, do it", because it won't happen.
22:24 They want our involvement, when we're involved
22:26 and they're involved, we're encouraging each other along.
22:30 Then you suddenly find yourself with the kind of atmosphere
22:33 - that you've been longing for. - So this heart shaped
22:35 love box, what you're doing then is you're putting little
22:38 heart shaped foams in it, and once it's filled,
22:41 that's for every act of kindness...
22:43 ...Or it can be whatever it is that you're centering on
22:46 that you see is the need that you have as a family.
22:49 It can be kindness, or maybe it's picking up after
22:52 each other, or maybe it's speaking words of courtesy
22:54 and love, or maybe it's forgiveness, whatever need
22:57 is the Lord brings because we can't just keep it
23:00 - on 1 thing. - We keep it fairly general,
23:03 but you know, when you buy gas sometimes you get double points,
23:06 I say to the children because Carolyn and I have been talking
23:08 and there's a weakness, there's a bit of bickering
23:11 going on between the children, we say "double when you're kind"
23:15 "to each other children, double points gets that thing"
23:19 - "filling up." - "Double points this week".
23:21 So once it's filled up then you're going to do something
23:24 as a family that's special. Let me as you, because something
23:27 tells me that there could be someone out who is watching
23:30 us right now, and maybe you're saying: "Oh please, give me"
23:34 "a break, I can't see that my family would be so sweet"
23:39 "all of the time", and they may be saying to them self
23:43 "Can't you overdo this? Can there be too much"
23:46 "sunshine in a family?"
23:48 There can, there really can. Just going back to
23:52 the atmosphere, what happens if you get too much sun?
23:56 You get burned, and that's not good, or you get heat stroke.
24:02 It may seem strange that we can have too much sun,
24:05 but we can have too much sun, and we can have too much,
24:08 well it's not really kindness because kindness can
24:11 bleed over into an indulgence, a wrong kind of indulgence.
24:20 I don't want to leave our viewers thinking
24:23 "Oh, okay, so I've kind of been hard on them,"
24:25 "now I've got to be kind on them", and then they start
24:28 doing things that are obviously wrong that you don't want
24:31 them to grow up with those traits of character,
24:33 so you say: "Well, never mind, I'm on the kindness"
24:37 "routine now." No, we need to mix that
24:40 kindness and that courtesy, we need to mix it with firmness.
24:45 The 2 have to stand side by side.
24:50 If you are just all hardness and instruction:
24:54 "Do this!", that's one extreme, and if it's all love
24:57 and the children can never do a thing wrong,
25:00 to me that's the other extreme. The secret of success
25:04 is to have both of those things there, and I'm starting
25:08 to think along the lines of extreme parenting.
25:10 We've got to be extremely loving to our children,
25:14 give them every ounce of encouragement,
25:16 but we have to tow the line as well, and they have to know
25:20 that there are those boundaries and they don't move.
25:24 Well, it's just as our heavenly Father deals with us.
25:27 He is the ultimate of love because He is love,
25:30 but we know that when we push on those boundaries
25:32 we will reap natural consequences when we go
25:35 out of His will. So it's bringing that into our
25:38 homes with the atmosphere there.
25:40 Just a word to parents, don't take the softer virtues,
25:45 as I would call them, to such an extreme that they knock out
25:47 the firmer virtues because we've seen that happen in families
25:50 as well, and the children grow up actually disliking
25:54 the parents because they never called them to account
25:57 - in some of those areas. - So why don't you take
25:59 just the moment that we have left and look into our camera
26:02 and tell those at home, just summarize what sunshine
26:05 in the home is all about.
26:08 Well, as we shared with you, sunshine in the home
26:10 came as a result of us realizing it wasn't there.
26:15 If you find your home as a home where harsh words are used
26:20 frequently, where the children are more treated as
26:23 an inconvenience, then I challenge you.
26:26 The first thing I would challenge you is to go to your
26:28 knees and say: "Oh Lord, please help me", because it's natural,
26:33 that's just how we are this far down the line in the human race,
26:38 we are terribly selfish. We need to go to God,
26:41 ask Him for a new heart, and then by His grace,
26:45 and we haven't really shared that in this interview,
26:47 but it's only by His grace this will happen.
26:50 Don't try it in your own strength, if you know what
26:53 I mean by that; seek the Lord
26:56 and then put some effort and some time into your children,
27:00 into your young people, into your wife.
27:03 Ask the Lord to give you natural opportunities.
27:06 This is something very practical you can do: ask the Lord
27:09 to give you natural opportunities in the day,
27:12 ask Him to remind you and I guarantee, if you're willing
27:15 to do that, the Lord will give you opportunity,
27:18 and you will have sunshine at home.
27:21 Amen.
27:22 Well Paul, thank you so much for all that you've
27:25 brought to the program today, and Carolyn,
27:28 we are so glad that we have had the Raynes with us today,
27:31 except that we've been talking about sunshine.
27:34 Thank you all so much for the ministry that you're doing,
27:37 we certainly appreciate it. For those of you at home,
27:39 remember that Jesus Christ said: "I am the light"
27:42 "of the world and he who follows after Me"
27:45 "will never walk in darkness, but will have the light"
27:47 "of life." Let God put some sunshine
27:50 in your home today. Thank you for joining us.


Revised 2014-12-17