Participants: Shelley Quinn (Host), Herb Douglass
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000217
00:30 Hello, I am Shelley Quinn.
00:31 And welcome again to Issues and Answers.
00:33 I'm so glad you could join us today,
00:35 because we're going to be talking about devil.
00:39 And is he real? Peter wrote
00:42 to us in First Peter 5:8 he says,
00:46 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary,
00:50 the devil, walks about like a roaring lion,
00:54 seeking whom he may devour.
00:57 Is the devil a real being or is he just something
01:01 that we conjured up in our mind.
01:03 We are going to be talking about that today.
01:04 And I'm so glad to have returning
01:07 with us again Dr. Herbert Douglas.
01:09 Dr. Douglas, thank you so much
01:11 for being here. My pleasure Shelley,
01:13 glad to be back. Well now you have
01:16 doctored in theology, you have been a professor
01:19 of theology at both Atlantic Union College
01:21 and Pacific Union College.
01:23 You worked as an editor for Review
01:25 and Herald and at Pacific Press
01:28 and now you're with Amazing Facts.
01:30 On top of all of that you are an author of over
01:33 20 books I understand. We are thrilled to have
01:36 you here to be discussing this with us today.
01:40 You know in our last program
01:42 we were talking about something
01:43 a little bit different but,
01:44 we also ended up talking about new spirituality.
01:49 And we didn't have a chance
01:50 to go into the difference between spiritualism
01:53 and new spirituality. Can we just take
01:56 a moment to address that? Very important Shelley,
01:59 because spiritualism is on a different track
02:01 although it's under the same umbrella.
02:04 Spiritualism is a direct connection with the dead,
02:07 or with the other world, with the past world,
02:11 okay. Ouija boards, seances, channeling,
02:15 extra sensory perception, the direct, not,
02:19 it's just the immediate connection
02:21 with the other side. With the spirit world.
02:24 But new spirituality doesn't go
02:26 in that direction or have common,
02:29 a common thread and that they both
02:32 believe in the other side from a standpoint
02:36 you could speak to them.
02:38 But new spirituality emphasizes
02:42 the good within you. It really uses Bible texts
02:47 but does not use the Bible authority,
02:51 okay. It uses text because it sounds
02:52 like they're Christians and it's very appealing.
02:56 Well when it comes down to the ability to find God,
02:59 all you have to do is recognize
03:01 that the other person is God.
03:05 God is within everybody and,
03:07 it's just like pantheism,
03:10 that God is in everything. Panentheism,
03:12 pantheism is God is in everything,
03:16 but Panentheism is God himself is in you.
03:21 You are not his handy work you are God.
03:25 And our job is to realize that wonderful
03:27 divine within you. To reach down
03:30 and open it up for your real potential
03:34 and you do that in many ways,
03:36 many ways. They are not all doing the same thing.
03:40 Some can do it with what we call
03:42 contemplative prayer.
03:44 That is I believe in contemplation,
03:46 I believe in going out and sitting under
03:48 a tree and contemplative God and the future.
03:53 That's not what they mean in contemplation.
03:55 Contemplation to a new spiritual leader
03:59 or follower would be to get down
04:03 into your thoughts in such a way
04:04 that you think no more.
04:06 You go into a neutral mind.
04:09 Into that alpha state and then you know.
04:11 The alpha state? Yeah.
04:12 Oh, you get into that. That's another
04:14 form of new spirituality, okay, that God takes
04:18 you as you are because you are good in word.
04:21 We have to release the good in each other.
04:24 The alpha state is becoming rather
04:26 attractive to many people these days.
04:28 You know I did a series with a gentleman
04:31 who had been Hindu and he is now a Pastor
04:34 of Christian denomination. And he was a chemist
04:38 and he is a scientist and he said the alpha state,
04:41 when you get into this type of meditation
04:44 through visualization through guided imagery.
04:47 Whatever when you are getting
04:48 into that contemplated as you said prayerful
04:52 type situation that in this new spirituality,
04:56 you actually are opening yourself to channel
04:59 the spirit world but not the spirit of God.
05:03 So, it's pretty interesting.
05:04 Well these are wonderful, gracious people
05:06 who are sponsoring this, yes. When you listen
05:08 to them on the radio, TV or read their books,
05:11 you say, my, this is rea insight, this is helpful.
05:15 They call it Christian mysticism for example,
05:17 right, or Christian yoga.
05:19 And I call those are fancy oxymorons,
05:21 yes, you know it's impossible
05:22 to be a Christian yoga. Right.
05:24 But when we talk about contemplative prayer,
05:28 we're talking about reaching down
05:30 into the silence. And you got to just check
05:34 out your mind and forget about any Bible text.
05:37 You cannot have a Bible text in your mind,
05:39 because that's going interfere with sinking
05:41 down into the silence, that's correct.
05:43 Many books have been written
05:44 about these experience. It is an experience
05:48 and may people describe it as a burning light.
05:52 And they want to share that wonderful
05:54 experience with you. Well you could imagine
05:56 what could happen when you shut out all
05:59 discrimination and reason and you just work
06:01 on your feelings and what comes up then.
06:04 That's part of it, the visualization
06:07 you talked about is to visualize
06:08 what you can be by letting that real you come out.
06:11 So there is no emphasis about God
06:13 in the power of the Holy Spirit obviously,
06:16 is releasing the power within you.
06:17 Napoleon Hill and so many of the great motivational
06:23 speakers worked on this principle.
06:25 And you know as a Christian,
06:26 I firmly believe Colossians 127 tells me
06:29 that Christ within me is my hope of glory.
06:32 As a Christian I know that if I am getting
06:35 up in the morning and I am surrendering
06:37 to the Lord and asking to be filled
06:39 with his Holy Spirit. Then I do believe
06:41 that I am the temple of the living God,
06:43 if the Holy Spirit is abiding in me.
06:47 But what these people are doing is something
06:50 quite different. It's not relying on God,
06:53 it's saying that everyone,
06:55 you don't have to be surrender to God.
06:57 You don't have to ask to be filled
06:58 with His Spirit; because there is no personal God,
07:00 there is no personal God, so that's the danger.
07:03 Which brings me you know in my mind
07:06 and I believe you will agree with me
07:07 here is that Herb is that this is another
07:12 deceitful ploy of the devil.
07:14 That it sounds so good, it comes wrapped
07:17 in a shiny wrapper with a big golden bow
07:21 on it and it sounds like something
07:23 that is innocuous, it sounds actually
07:25 like it would be good for us. It's exciting,
07:27 it is exciting but now new spirituality people
07:31 don't actually recognize the devil of Satan
07:37 as a real being. What do you believe,
07:40 what does the Bible teach a Stan a real being?
07:43 To sum up what you just said the Oprah Winfrey
07:46 kind of religion is sweeping this country,
07:50 that everybody is walking up his own path
07:53 and everybody's path is as good as everybody else.
07:55 Because you are on the same spiritual mountain
07:58 and one of these days we'll get to the top.
08:00 That is very appealing; now Satan comes
08:03 into the picture not in new spirituality of course.
08:07 But the reality that he is a living being,
08:09 Jesus said he faced him face-to-face
08:13 and has wildness experience.
08:15 He calls him the father of lies,
08:17 John 8, Peter calls him a roaring lion.
08:22 Revelation 12, he's described as a dragon,
08:25 that evil force. As you will remember Satan
08:31 for example, he is the Satan
08:33 and the accuser and a dragon,
08:35 but he was that force in heaven.
08:38 before there was ever this world created,
08:41 who started a war in heaven.
08:44 Now wait a minute, did you said
08:46 he was the same force in heaven.
08:48 Did God cerate the devil? God created Lucifer,
08:54 in fact he was the first of the all created beings.
08:57 Lucifer saw every other being created.
09:00 He was the first one, he became God's master
09:04 of communication. He was in control,
09:07 he probably memorized everybody's DNA.
09:10 The second angel down to yours and mine.
09:15 But something about you can't explain this,
09:18 but this is what happened.
09:20 well being that close to God
09:22 and seeing the adoration that all the creation
09:26 had for God that something happened
09:30 that he would like to share some of that.
09:32 After all he was the first of creation you know
09:36 and know something about jealously
09:38 that become envy. And envy becomes
09:43 hatred and that was the story,
09:46 the anthropy of what's happening of Lucifer
09:50 who became Satan. Satan is a word
09:51 that means the adversary.
09:54 And he was God's adversary.
09:56 So we find these truce in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28,
10:00 that Satan got lifted up he was filled with pride
10:04 and pride led to rebellion.
10:06 So now give me your sound bite description
10:10 for who Satan is? Satan is pure evil,
10:13 okay. Satan is an example what happens
10:17 for person who lets jealousy and be,
10:20 control his life. And pride,
10:25 which everybody that has ever lived
10:27 has had to contend with. I want to be me,
10:31 I want to have time to realize my potential.
10:34 Don't push me around,
10:35 I have a right to this or that.
10:37 That's a little bit of Satan in all of us, yes.
10:39 Power destroys and that Satan is the arch example
10:47 of what happens when power overtakes
10:50 a man or a woman When you get a little
10:52 I trouble, I will be lifted up.
10:55 There is no turning back, because envy leads
10:57 to hate and hate leads to destruction of somebody.
11:00 In the home, in the workplace,
11:03 in the community, in the world,
11:06 hate always leads to coalition.
11:09 What are some of the strategies
11:11 that the devil uses today?
11:15 I certainly like to put it at least into four,
11:19 okay. First, he is a great pretender,
11:26 and then he uses other people to blame
11:29 for what he is messing up, scapegoat him, okay.
11:32 And then when things get more involved
11:37 and issues become more confusing,
11:42 he adds the confusion in many ways
11:45 and then when it comes down
11:47 to it and things are really getting tight,
11:51 he doesn't try to persuade,
11:52 he tries to co-verse one way
11:54 or another to go his way.
11:57 Even to destroy the person he can't win over.
12:02 Let's look at those four categories then
12:04 and kind of let's break this down so that.
12:06 I hear what you're saying but I want to understand
12:08 how does that apply to our lives today.
12:10 So when you say he is a master of pretends,
12:14 how can we apply that or recognize
12:17 that in our lives today? Those who are just impelled
12:23 by self centeredness, he wants it his own way.
12:30 They don't like to be reproved;
12:33 they don't like to be considered a problem.
12:37 And so they will do anything to deceive,
12:40 They will explain how somebody
12:45 how somebody else could be the problem
12:47 and that's self justification.
12:49 Happens in every family, every church,
12:52 every group of people. And so self justification
12:56 leads to showing how somebody
12:58 else is to blame for what's going on.
13:01 If it weren't for my mother and father,
13:02 I wouldn't be the way I am.
13:05 If if weren't for the government
13:07 being so inconsiderate, I would live in a better
13:11 house then I am living in.
13:13 There is always somebody to blame,
13:16 and many homes have been broken
13:20 up by a wife or a husband.
13:23 Who are experts at pretending
13:26 that they are the righteous one,
13:29 that they are the one who is keeping things together.
13:34 That they are the ones who are the ones
13:37 that make their family work and they turn to children
13:41 against the other mate. And then they come up
13:45 with excuses to show that well that wasn't my fault
13:50 that was your mother's fault,
13:51 well that was your father's fault.
13:53 And the children are quite deceived
13:57 of course by this kind of talk.
14:00 So, scapegoating is the way you project
14:04 what you're doing on somebody
14:05 else and getting away with it.
14:09 And when, when you think about,
14:15 what goes on in the world today,
14:17 I have so many examples in my head.
14:20 You can hardly listen a news commentator
14:24 or a politician without being confused.
14:28 Because you listen to what they're saying
14:30 and say that's sounds right.
14:33 Then if you turn the station
14:34 and you listen to somebody
14:35 else on the same subject you say,
14:38 well that sounds right too.
14:39 Somebody is confusing the issue,
14:41 they are masters of confusion.
14:43 By using words with different definitions.
14:49 May I, and let me interact this,
14:51 would you agree that most,
14:53 in most cases when someone is trying to confuse,
14:58 they've got their agenda that they are pushing
15:00 and this is what Satan is. He's got this agenda
15:03 he's pushing, you got that right.
15:04 So they often purposely will put a spin,
15:08 we call them spin doctors.
15:10 And they will put a spin on something,
15:12 or one thing that I've noticed
15:14 that people do quite a bit,
15:16 is that they will take just a measure of truth
15:21 and they may end up with five percent
15:23 truth in what they're saying
15:24 and add 95 percent of a lie.
15:27 And there is just enough truth
15:28 in it that is recognizable that it confuses
15:32 people because they think well this is true,
15:35 the rest must be true.
15:36 So, that's one of it's strategies.
15:39 It's a strategies that works,
15:40 it's the big lie for example
15:43 and Hitler wasn't a perfect example,
15:46 people really believed Hitler.
15:48 He came in to power in 1933 in Germany,
15:53 through a constructional way of becoming
15:59 the Chancellor of the German nation.
16:02 There is nothing wrong with the way he did it,
16:05 he was just using the strategy,
16:08 but it wasn't very long before the gypsies
16:12 and the homosexuals and the Jehovah's
16:13 witnesses were wrong.
16:16 That's the problem, scapegoating,
16:18 he's scapegoating all these people.
16:19 And of course the Jews.
16:21 You have to get rid of these people
16:22 who are the causes of our problems in this country.
16:27 He did it to perfection, confusing,
16:34 you need a true squad to follow up
16:37 many, many politicians, many, many preachers.
16:43 Because it's a strategy that works.
16:48 I don't know if you read 1984 by Eric Blair,
16:55 1984 was written in 1948 and he transports
16:58 these numbers. And he was a,
17:05 everybody should read it once,
17:07 to show what happens to a country
17:10 when you confuse the language.
17:13 When freedom is what everybody wants,
17:17 don't limit people, when two and two are,
17:20 somebody calls two and two
17:21 are five is free to do it. And war becomes peace,
17:29 work becomes freedom. And he thought by 1984,
17:35 the whole world will be in that mess.
17:37 We missed it by maybe 20 years.
17:40 But when I first read it in the late 40's
17:44 I didn't think the world would ever last that long.
17:47 That he was dreaming science fiction,
17:49 there was nothing scientifically fiction
17:51 about his book, yes, 1984, yes.
17:57 People is what I get into the way
18:02 the people can confuse, all through Christianity
18:07 there has been a marvelous strategy of confusion.
18:10 Take the one word faith, that one word faith
18:16 has caused more divisions in the Christian church
18:20 then any other word.
18:24 And maybe it was in our church,
18:26 we have people who are confused
18:27 about what faith means. Because it may take
18:30 the definition of a particular
18:31 Protestant reformer. Then I ask,
18:34 well which reformer are you referring to,
18:36 because I could show
18:37 another Protestant reformer who,
18:39 lets them face differently.
18:41 But they'll hang on to a definition
18:44 that seems to appeal to them.
18:46 Don't you think that a lot of people and you know,
18:49 I meet so many wonderful people,
18:51 in so many different denominations
18:53 and they're earnest,
18:55 absolutely, and they're sincere.
18:57 But they will except what someone
19:01 has told them from the pulpit,
19:03 without studying it out for their own.
19:05 And I even would put myself in that category
19:08 some years back, there were many things
19:10 I had studied out for my own.
19:12 Some things that I just accepted,
19:14 because I thought well all
19:15 of Christendom accepted this.
19:17 But even many Pastors, who often preach something
19:22 that they really taking things out of context.
19:26 And this again I think this is the double
19:27 strategy, its confusion, it's to confuse us,
19:30 who have someone studying
19:32 and going to may be certain study helps even,
19:35 where some on is off. If they are off base
19:38 and they are preaching from that study help
19:40 rather then from the word of God.
19:42 We see that there is a lot of confusion
19:46 within the body of Christ. Take the word grace. Yes,
19:50 we heard lot about grace these days.
19:53 Grace for most people today means God's
19:56 wonderful gift of forgiveness.
20:00 But that's only half of grace,
20:02 amen. The grace of power,
20:04 amen, it changed the kind of life that keeps
20:07 asking for forgiveness.
20:09 That's what I call the unlimited gospel,
20:11 the everlasting gospel, amen.
20:13 But not many churches or preachers are spending
20:17 their time on that today,
20:18 okay. Another word is truth,
20:21 truth is passive for most any university subject
20:24 or college subject today.
20:26 Young people that brought up is not their fault,
20:30 because my opinion is just as good as yours love say.
20:33 Being taught that truth is relative.
20:35 We know truth is relative
20:37 and if I feel that this is the best way
20:40 to look at something, yeah,
20:42 and to appeal to some authority
20:45 or some objective standard is passive.
20:49 That's amazing. Okay, so we're looking
20:51 at some of the strategies of a devil
20:54 and we are looking at how he will use pretense,
20:58 cloaking. You know I tell people
21:00 all the time that sin is nothing more than
21:04 gift wrapped garbage. And it comes to us
21:06 in this big shiny foil package,
21:09 it's all beautifully wrapped.
21:11 And the devil makes us believe
21:14 that it's going to bring pleasure but
21:15 that pleasure short lived and then it brings
21:17 a lot. Everything has an appeal, yes, yes.
21:20 So there was the pretense
21:22 and then there is scapegoating where
21:25 and the devil is you know even for the war
21:28 he led in heaven. He was scapegoating
21:30 saying it's God's fault because God's unfair.
21:33 Because he made rules that we really
21:34 aren't going to be happy, aren't able to keep.
21:36 And he is a tough one, he is a divine paramour.
21:39 He wants everybody to love him,
21:41 but then he doesn't give to us.
21:45 Right, now then there is the confusion
21:47 and the devil will even use scripture to confuse
21:49 us just as he did with Jesus in the desert.
21:53 I mean he would say, it is written you know,
21:57 that he will not let you dash
21:59 your foot against the stone.
22:01 I mean he would use scripture to test Jesus,
22:06 but Jesus knew his scriptures
22:08 and he would come back
22:09 and he'd say it is also written.
22:10 Well the new spirituality uses,
22:13 lots of scripture, scripture all the way
22:14 through their books. But they use,
22:15 they choose like a cherry picker.
22:18 Just the ones that they and half a text maybe.
22:20 And they will take it out of
22:22 context, out of context, absolutely.
22:24 I did that was Rick Warren
22:25 when my other book Truth Matters.
22:28 It's marvelous how he uses text,
22:29 but they are just trying to prove
22:32 his own presupposition,
22:33 not what the Bible
22:34 is saying. That would be
22:36 Rick Warren's book the Purpose Driven Life,
22:37 yes, okay. Now well let's,
22:38 let's go on before we might comeback
22:41 to that in a moment but let's go on to coercion.
22:46 That is another one of Satan strategy.
22:48 There was war in heaven.
22:50 It ends up, evil always ends up
22:54 with some kind of coercion
22:55 and God had to step in and said no more,
22:57 not in heaven. And he was cast out,
23:00 Revelation 12. And ever since evil has
23:04 its own way of trying to destroy people
23:06 who speak for God, alright.
23:09 Think of those three worthies
23:10 on the plain of Dura,
23:12 yes. That was a religious liberty situation, yes.
23:16 And it got pretty tough for those young men.
23:18 Mr. Shadrach, Meshach,
23:19 and Abednego. That was coercion, yes,
23:21 if you don't bow down,
23:22 we're going to throw you into the fire.
23:24 And they were thrown in but God saved
23:26 those three young men.
23:28 The next one was, because the devil
23:30 is trying to get rid of anybody
23:32 who speaks well of God.
23:33 See that's what he hates so much.
23:36 He's been the one who has given such a bad,
23:40 well bum wrap on God all these years.
23:43 That God isn't what he is trying to make
23:46 himself out to be. He is stern,
23:48 he is unforgiving.
23:50 And so Daniel had clearly in mind,
23:53 he had wonderful, well he didn't have
23:55 all of his predictions yet and Daniel 6,
23:58 he has still had seven and eight, nine to write.
24:00 But he certainly had it right on Daniel two,
24:03 the place of God in the universe.
24:06 How do you get rid of Daniel?
24:07 They work out of situation whereby he finally thrown
24:11 into the lions den, that's coercion,
24:14 get rid of God's people. And Herb,
24:17 wouldn't you even agree all the devil's devices
24:21 in that using coercion
24:22 and I will give you an example
24:24 what I'm referring to,
24:25 and that would be like alcohol, drugs.
24:31 You know anything that the devil offers us is sin,
24:35 even if you want us,
24:37 we could throw in pornography,
24:38 we could throw in sexual addictions.
24:41 Sin takes away once you chose it,
24:44 you make the original choice
24:46 and sin pretty much takes away your choice.
24:49 It's almost like the devils,
24:51 his tactics, it's something
24:53 that comes in and it controls you.
24:55 It addicts you and you have,
24:58 you know you lose that sensibility.
25:00 It's you build your own chains of course.
25:02 So, we know that God never controls us,
25:07 I mean we have to yield control to him.
25:10 He never coerces us, we chose everyday
25:13 whom we are going to serve.
25:15 But the devil what he will do is he will make
25:17 something titillating and provocative.
25:20 And it makes it interesting
25:21 and once you get in there it's like
25:23 you lose your choice. You know if you're,
25:26 you can't get out of that. It's hard to get,
25:28 the impulsiveness takes over.
25:30 Right so, so we see that
25:34 if he's using pretense
25:36 and he's using this scapegoating
25:38 and he's using coercion and confusion.
25:41 How does all of this play into end times?
25:46 Well, in earlier discussion we had,
25:50 we talked about a perfect storm,
25:52 yes. Perfect storm not just two storms
25:55 as we talked about in 1991 North Atlantic.
26:01 But we have the perfect storm of the multitude,
26:05 the frequency of the impact of natural disasters,
26:08 increasingly awful.
26:10 We have an economic distress
26:12 that's going to be global,
26:13 international, interactive.
26:15 We are going to have how the United States
26:17 a world power, superpower becomes
26:21 a leading influence in this world to,
26:27 to unite with the papal powers
26:29 in creating a peace effort.
26:35 A union of every willing heart
26:39 that wants a peaceful,
26:42 a peaceful kind of a world,
26:44 and the way you identify with that is,
26:46 lets all get together and we show
26:47 that we can be like Americans used to be.
26:50 Worship together on at least one day a week.
26:55 And so at the end of time,
26:58 we're going to have that final coercive
27:03 kind of a dilemma,
27:06 where they will be two classes of people.
27:08 Those who worship the God,
27:10 his Commandments and the faith of Jesus,
27:12 and those who are going to coerce
27:16 them to the place where we're told
27:18 that they'll even try to annihilate
27:20 them at the end of time,
27:22 that's coercion, amen.
27:23 Get rid of people who love the Lord,
27:25 amen. I can't believe that we're already
27:28 out of time again. Please, get into the word of God
27:31 and know what the Bible has to say
27:33 so that the devil cannot coerce
27:35 you and he cannot confuse you.
27:36 And he cannot use pretense to trap you.
27:40 So it is so important for all of us that we know
27:44 who our adversary is and that he is a real being.
27:48 May the Lord bless you as you study
27:50 His word and get to know him better.