Participants: C.A. Murray (Host), Jerry Thomas
Series Code: IAA
Program Code: IAA000194
00:30 Welcome to Issues and Answers.
00:31 I'm C.A. Murray and thank you for
00:33 joining us today. My guest is a very
00:36 special friend of some years Jerry Thomas,
00:39 who is currently the Communication Director
00:42 for the Southwestern Union, and I hope I got
00:45 that all in there. He is a prolific author
00:50 we can say. He's written many, many books
00:53 in particular a series of children's books that
00:56 have become very, very popular not only
00:58 in the Adventist Church, but really I think around
01:01 the literary world. He is a quite famous
01:04 children's book author, and of course he also
01:06 undertook a monumental task just sometime ago
01:10 as he rewrote the classic book Desire of Ages
01:13 into modern translation called the Messiah.
01:17 But today we want to talk about an issue
01:19 that comes from his latest book, which is a
01:22 conversation with Jesus, did I get right Jerry?
01:24 Conversation with Jesus. Conversation with Jesus,
01:27 one of the issues that book addresses
01:30 is the issue of guilt, and that's the issue
01:32 we want to tackle today. We want to talk
01:33 about guilt and sort of examine that a little bit,
01:37 find our how to get out from under it
01:39 and to keep it from hindering our Christian
01:41 experience. Jerry good to have you here
01:43 first of all. Thank you.
01:45 And good to see you again, okay, after a few years.
01:47 You're looking fair and fine.
01:53 we're dealing with guilt and one of the statements
01:56 that I see here on, on my outline says that
02:00 many people, if not most people carry around
02:02 a load of guilt. Talk about that little bit and
02:06 how that impacts our Christian experience?
02:09 Well, all of us have regrets from the past
02:11 things that we know we handle badly,
02:13 made bad decisions on, for those of us
02:18 who are parents you can always look back
02:20 and see what you did wrong raising
02:22 your children. And those of us in long term
02:25 relationships you know, you've heard your
02:26 spouse's feelings on more than one occasion.
02:29 And then when you add on the element of how we,
02:31 we know we've disappointed God
02:33 by the way we've acted sometimes
02:36 the road rage, when you're stuck in traffic
02:39 or the, other times when you add your numbers
02:42 just right on that tax return to your advantage.
02:45 The sort of things that we can slip by on,
02:47 but later, maybe late at night the guilt
02:50 comes back. We realize we're not living the life
02:53 God wants us to. And for, for a lot of people,
02:56 a lot of us the guilt becomes a burden that
02:59 we carry and we can't talk about
03:02 it really to people. And we're not sure that God
03:05 can really forgive us we, we don't know
03:07 how to handle the guilty. And I think that adds
03:09 to a lot of people stress.
03:11 If that guilt then is left sort of unresolved,
03:14 what, what can it do to us?
03:16 For a lot of people the unresolved guilt leads
03:20 directly to illness. And some of those illnesses
03:23 are stress related directly whether it's heart
03:26 disease or stroke or even something like cancer
03:31 when you're burdened by guilt and it effects your,
03:36 your ability to resist disease.
03:38 Yeah, less threatening than cancer,
03:42 but I think equally as bad or as debilitating
03:44 maybe just depression. Oh! Yes, yeah, yes.
03:48 Depression and you, you don't have to look
03:50 long on in today's media to see how strongly
03:54 they're pushing the depression medication.
03:56 How many people seem to be looking for anyway,
03:59 yeah, out from under the depression that they feel?
04:01 Yeah, I suspect you could go through your life
04:03 medicated though not well.
04:05 I mean you could feel better,
04:06 you can take an upper, feel pretty good,
04:08 but you haven't really dealt with
04:09 the core problem or the core issue.
04:11 Yeah, yeah, pretty direct, yeah. What,
04:14 what is the chapter in the book specifically that
04:16 deals with this, what's it called?
04:17 In that chapter we're dealing with Jesus
04:21 conversation with the man
04:24 who was paralyzed, whose four friends
04:26 carried him to Jesus, you know the story.
04:28 Oh! Yes. Put the hole in the roof,
04:29 lowered him down, and it's really an odd
04:32 conversation with Jesus because in a sense
04:35 no one speaks but him. We don't have any
04:38 record of the paralyzed man responding to Jesus.
04:41 Yet, Jesus knew what he wanted?
04:42 Oh! Yes. And at the same time in that
04:44 setting he recalls at the end of the story
04:47 the Pharisees, the spies, who heard Jesus say,
04:51 your sins are forgiven, they immediately began
04:53 to think that he was blasphemy,
04:55 and Jesus responds to them, even though
04:57 they hadn't spoken out loud, yes.
04:58 So Jesus is talking to people, but they're not
05:00 saints, yeah, so one sided conversation,
05:02 but at the same time it's Jesus responding to
05:05 people's thoughts and, and prayers in this case.
05:08 And of course we get the understanding
05:11 what is it tougher to do say, take up your bed
05:13 and walk or say thy sins be forgiven,
05:16 and Christ, Christ says, I am both.
05:17 That's right; that's exactly he told.
05:20 And in fact, that's what I'm going to do, yeah.
05:22 I'm going to do almost forgive him and get him
05:24 out of this, out of the stretcher.
05:27 You pose an interesting question, and I think,
05:31 if I'm framing it correctly,
05:32 it's the idea that, if a person could be
05:34 physically whole or guilt free, which one would
05:39 they probably choose? First, why that question
05:42 and then unwrap the answer to that as you,
05:44 as you see it. Well, think about it in your
05:46 own life, if you could,
05:50 if you could really believe that
05:53 you are forgiven, released from guilt,
05:56 from all of the things that you've ever done
05:59 from childhood on.
06:02 What would do to you, how would you feel
06:04 if you could know that that was true?
06:06 Of all the things you regretted saying
06:08 or not saying, if all of the actions you took
06:11 or failed to take, they were quite clean,
06:15 they were forgiven, how would, wouldn't that
06:17 change your whole life, your whole attitude.
06:19 I think for a lot of people who carry a burden
06:22 of guilt that would be such a release to them
06:25 that like this man on the cot, you know,
06:28 he was lowered down there and Jesus said,
06:30 your sins are forgiven and he was happy, yeah.
06:33 He didn't need to jump up and down
06:35 and dance about, he was happy lying there,
06:36 yeah, because he was forgiven, yeah,
06:38 and that's what he really wanted.
06:40 Now the freedom from the disease, the healing,
06:45 now that was completely secondary
06:47 to have. Yeah, sort of the cherry on the,
06:48 on the top of the icing, that's right,
06:49 but the main thing that he was forgiven.
06:51 What he wanted was forgiveness, yeah, yeah,
06:52 and I think, I think for a lot of us,
06:54 if we could choose that we, we might be content
06:57 with the, the tennis elbow or the
06:59 arthritic knee or, but all if we could be released
07:02 from the guilt, if we could feel forgiveness.
07:08 I think it would brighten our days
07:10 and ways that we can hardly imagine.
07:12 Yeah, praise the Lord. Let me just backup
07:13 a little bit, what was the, the energy behind
07:17 writing this book, it seems like it deals with
07:18 a lot of very bedrock personal issues that
07:22 Christians go through in their walk with Christ.
07:24 We're dealing with guilt in particularly,
07:26 but there are a number of things that are very
07:30 interpersonal or personal as,
07:32 as relates us in our relationship with Jesus.
07:35 Where did that that come from?
07:36 It grew out of my, the time I spend reading
07:40 the Desire of Ages, the beautiful story of Jesus
07:43 that Ellen White wrote so long ago.
07:46 When I was doing the modern English adaptation
07:51 of that it, it occurred to me that in so many cases
07:55 in so many ways, when Jesus said the,
08:00 the verses that we cherish, the quotes that
08:02 we love so much, most often He was talking
08:04 to an individual, He was conversing,
08:06 He wasn't preaching behind a pulpit,
08:08 He wasn't standing on the side of a hillside
08:10 talking to thousands. He was conversing
08:13 with an individual. A person in pain,
08:15 a person in need and it occur to me through
08:20 that my own experiences that those of the
08:23 kind of conversations I need. And there are
08:26 so many questions in life that we wish God
08:29 would answer for us. So many things we don't
08:31 understand especially some of the pain
08:33 and the loss that we suffer, if only we could
08:35 take a few minutes' right here and sit down
08:37 across from Jesus, yes. And ask those questions
08:40 and listen to His answers. And that's what this,
08:43 that's what this book crew out from me,
08:45 because we do find those occasions
08:49 in scripture, where are like, like this occasion
08:51 we're talking about the man doesn't actually
08:54 sit down and talk to Jesus about forgiveness,
08:56 but Jesus knows what's on his heart,
08:58 sure, He response to that, sure.
08:59 So, it's no different then, if He would have
09:01 come and sat at Jesus feet just the two
09:04 of them and said, how can I be forgiven
09:07 for the things that I've done?
09:08 There is one thing we overlook sometimes
09:09 in that story of the paralyzed man.
09:13 He wasn't paralyzed because of an accident
09:15 or a disease that just happened to come on him.
09:20 He apparently went out and lived the party
09:22 lifestyle, yeah. He lived it up until he had
09:24 ruined his health. It was all of his fault
09:27 that he is in that situation.
09:29 And that, you know that, that tends to change
09:32 the terrain just a little bit, particularly
09:34 for the suppliant, for the person who is coming
09:36 to Christ because you're saying to yourself
09:39 here I go again you know,
09:40 I've done it hundred times and here and I'm,
09:43 my current condition is not anybody
09:47 plotting against me, I've done this to myself.
09:51 And I got to come dragging to Jesus
09:53 with His load of guilt, and really I think Satan
09:57 would say you can't go, you know,
09:59 should you go again, you did it to yourself.
10:01 Why would you take that to Jesus?
10:02 But I think your thesis is that that's the
10:04 very person that needs to,
10:05 needs to come to Christ, yeah.
10:07 That's right, and that is, and when the man
10:09 came to Jesus he received the forgiveness
10:12 he was looking for it, yeah. Jesus didn't say,
10:14 well I don't know, yeah, you brought this
10:16 on yourself, how many times we can go around
10:18 the same, he just forgave, yeah, released him
10:21 from that guilt and indeed from His sickness.
10:23 Yeah, praise God. You know Jerry,
10:25 I'm glad and I've said this before in looking
10:27 at that is that Jesus never has a bad day you know.
10:30 We serve a God that doesn't have a bad day
10:32 because we all have days when we don't want
10:33 to be bothered.
10:36 Whatever time you come you get the same
10:38 consistent answer, "He that cometh unto me
10:41 I will in no wise, I will in no wise cast out."
10:45 And it's a very beautiful, the story of
10:48 the paralytic in Mark, as I'm looking
10:50 in notes is a, is a, is a good one because it,
10:53 it speaks forgiveness and are needed forgiveness
10:56 even more than physical healing.
11:00 In your own experience have you seen that,
11:03 have you seen that outplayed as far as people
11:09 just being freed through forgiveness
11:10 as apposed to physical healing.
11:14 You know, we often pray for miracles
11:17 for healing, when someone is ill?
11:19 And rightfully so, God in His mercy and does
11:22 reach down and heal those in need,
11:25 but we forget that the act of forgiveness
11:28 is just as miraculous. I do recall an occasion
11:32 when I was pastoring, a man who, who,
11:38 well he was just one of the more difficult people
11:40 in the church, he was also always hard to get
11:43 along with, always had a, a judgmental eye
11:46 on whatever was happening and eventually
11:51 he spoke with me about a terrible burden
11:54 of guilt he had carried for years, for decades,
11:57 concerning his own family. And when I could
12:00 assure him that God forgave him of that,
12:02 if he was repenting, he turned into a
12:05 different person. You know, the kind of a loving
12:08 kindness that flowed out of him after that
12:10 was miraculous. It was no different then
12:13 if he had been paralyzed and lying on a cot,
12:15 God changed his whole life through
12:18 the miracle of forgiveness.
12:19 Yeah, praise God. You know, and there have been
12:22 other times when I've referred to James
12:24 chapter 4 verse 1, which basically asked
12:26 the question where do wars come from,
12:28 where does strife come from?
12:30 And it's rhetorical question because
12:32 he answers it by saying doesn't it come from
12:35 the internal strive. You know, the reason
12:37 you can't get along with your neighbor
12:38 or your husband, your wife is because
12:39 you are really having trouble getting along
12:41 with yourself. And I think a lot of that maybe
12:43 generated by feelings of guilt,
12:46 feelings of inadequacy, things that were done
12:49 that haven't been resolved, you know,
12:52 or taken or taken care of. So, if I can't get
12:54 along with me then I'm gonna have a hard
12:56 time getting along with you, particularly,
12:58 if I see mirrored in you the same problems
13:00 that I'm dealing with myself. Yeah, yeah,
13:03 so guilt can be a very, very destructive thing.
13:06 I like the idea that you propose that forgiving
13:11 is as big a miracle as, as is saying get out
13:15 of that bed and walk. And well Jesus did that.
13:18 We forget that somehow we, we forgiveness
13:21 has become too common to us,
13:22 and so its like okay, I'm sorry for my sins,
13:24 God forgives me and we go around as if you know,
13:27 that was just a normal thing. Well,
13:29 in fact it's a, as much a miracle as somebody
13:32 rising up from a cot, it is nothing less than
13:35 an act of God to release you from the guilt
13:38 because of your, your request
13:41 and your faith in Jesus.
13:42 Yes, and have you ever noticed or seen,
13:45 and this is where we go to Christ and
13:48 we're forgiven. It's as though we lay our
13:50 burden at his feet and then we leave and we pick
13:52 that burden up again and walk with it again.
13:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I suspect as hard as
13:58 it is sometimes to forgive others for a certain
14:01 class of person forgiving yourself is also
14:04 fairly difficult. And it goes back to us not
14:06 really believing that God will forgive,
14:08 will forgive what we've done because you know,
14:11 you can go through the emotions,
14:12 but when we reach the point of actually
14:14 turning it over to God something inside us,
14:16 or beside us on our shoulder it says, you know,
14:19 God can't forgive you for that, yeah.
14:21 You know, He is not gonna do that. And so,
14:23 we pick that burden up again and continue
14:25 to carry it around when all God
14:27 wants us to do is lay it down.
14:29 Define, let's define some terms now Jerry.
14:31 One, in your writing, define for me, forgiveness
14:38 Forgiveness to me is, I would say it's the act
14:45 of taking away the guilt of what you've done.
14:50 God doesn't go back and rewrite the past,
14:52 so that you didn't do anything wrong.
14:54 The memory of it doesn't disappear from our
14:56 minds at this time, yes. But what God takes
15:00 away then is the guilt for having done it.
15:04 And He doesn't hold that guilt against us anymore.
15:07 And if we can forgive ourselves, we don't have
15:09 to hold it against us either, yes, yes.
15:12 Of course with the Christian forgiveness for
15:15 yourself is always tied to your willingness
15:17 to forgive others, we can't, we can't take
15:19 out that part of the equation either,
15:21 because if you can't release your anger,
15:23 your pain towards someone else,
15:26 then I think it's like you said earlier
15:28 you won't ever really forgive yourself.
15:30 Yeah, yeah, we've assumed that everyone
15:33 here knows what we're talking about when
15:35 we use the term guilt. Wrestle with a working
15:39 definition of guilt for me. It is you know,
15:41 it's one of those kind of words that you think
15:43 everybody knows, you just know it is,
15:45 but unpackage that a little bit?
15:48 Well, we're familiar with the legal definition
15:51 of guilt, in that you've committed a crime,
15:54 you're guilty of it judged by your peers
15:56 and therefore you've a penalty that you must pay.
15:59 A guilt being either admission that you have
16:01 committed this crime or evidence that
16:03 you did in spite of your, your testimony.
16:08 I think for us as Christians guilt is about
16:13 we recognize that we've fallen away from
16:15 what God wanted for us. We've made
16:17 bad decisions. We have committed acts of an
16:24 inappropriate nature. We know that we're not
16:26 living the way God wants us to and the guilt
16:29 we feel. Guilt is the, it grows out of what God
16:34 put inside us to steer us toward Him.
16:38 And when we're leaving that path,
16:40 when we're going in another way,
16:41 something inside us hurt, something inside us
16:44 feels wrong. Now, this isn't right for me,
16:46 this isn't the way it should be,
16:48 and the guilt is what we feel.
16:51 Drawing from your, your, your, previous answer,
16:53 can I ask this question then, is there in your own
16:56 mind good guilt and bad guilt
16:58 or is guilt always bad?
17:02 I think we can, we can categorize guilt as good
17:05 and that it, it's a reflection of our
17:08 conscious saying this is not the path I really
17:10 want to be on. I'm going somewhere
17:12 I don't really want to go, I am becoming someone
17:14 I don't really want to be, and guilt sharpens
17:17 us to that, to that acknowledgment,
17:20 this isn't it. But at that point it's,
17:22 it's positive because it's driving you, right,
17:25 to see a solution. It's saying the state
17:28 we're in is not a good state, we need to find a
17:31 better state; we need to do something to get
17:33 out where we are. At what point
17:35 can that become, become bad?
17:38 It becomes bad when we, when we can't
17:41 let go of it. When it, it when we can't lay
17:46 it down at the cross of Jesus and leave it
17:49 with Him, but we find ourselves dragging that
17:52 burden from year to year, yeah.
17:56 And it confuses Christians a lot because
17:58 we very much teach and stress the idea
18:04 of repentance. We must truly be sorry for
18:06 you've done and turn away from that.
18:08 And too many times we've a hard time believing
18:12 repentance has an end you know,
18:14 I did this thing you know, I offended my wife
18:16 in some manner therefore I must repent
18:18 for that everyday now for the rest of our lives,
18:20 yeah, and that's, that's not true repentance.
18:24 Repentance is a moment in time when you
18:27 acknowledge you're wrong, your guilt and then
18:29 you let it go, yeah. And you move forward.
18:31 Yeah, yeah, see just I think you said a very,
18:33 very pointed statement. You repent and then
18:37 you let it go, if you, if you circle that mountain
18:40 forever then you haven't really repented,
18:42 no, repented, and you've really forgiven
18:44 yourself for the act. There is only so many
18:47 mea culpas you know, that you that you can do,
18:49 that's right, after that it's not,
18:50 it's not healthy. The reason I asked that
18:53 former question was because I'm thinking
18:55 of two people who did heinous acts,
18:58 one was Judas, the other was Peter.
19:02 I don't know if Judas' sin was any worse than
19:06 Peter's. Judas pointed him on the crowd you know,
19:11 and got paid for it. Peter denied he ever knew
19:14 him of the two Peter's carrying a lot of
19:18 weight there, yet Judas hanged himself,
19:21 his guilt turned inward. Peter became an incredible
19:26 personage for Jesus.
19:29 Where is the difference guilt wise?
19:32 And I'm kind of throwing that on you,
19:33 you know suddenly. That's alright.
19:37 I think you're, you're very right,
19:39 they both in the last hours of Jesus life,
19:43 they both turned their back on him,
19:45 and surrendered him to the, to the enemy.
19:52 And really, they most both, must both have gone
19:57 out from their thinking that this was the end
20:00 in terms of their relationship to Jesus.
20:01 Judas must surely have thought,
20:04 no doubt he had some feelings of greed
20:07 and avarice as he counted those coins,
20:11 but he must have thought in his mind that
20:13 he was in the end gonna be doing Jesus a favor.
20:15 He was gonna be pushing him to declare
20:18 who He was, precisely, to throw off those changes.
20:20 And when Judas finally realized that that wasn't
20:23 gonna happen, he must have been overwhelmed
20:26 by the guilt of what he had caused.
20:28 But Peter was no different,
20:30 he had sworn only hours before that he would
20:33 never deny Jesus and yet the first time someone
20:36 challenges him, he turns his back on him.
20:38 So, both, they were both of them knowing
20:41 that the relationship they thought they would
20:43 had with Jesus was over, yes.
20:45 Then what they are gonna do with that, yeah, yeah.
20:47 And I think the only difference could have
20:49 been Judas had never let the love of Jesus change
20:56 his heart. Judas had been the kind of person
21:01 who might have behaved properly,
21:03 to could fit into the right crowd,
21:04 who did the right things, said the right things.
21:07 But his heart had never been touched by
21:09 Jesus' love. Where as Peter did many of the
21:12 wrong things, always spoke up too soon, yeah.
21:15 He was forever putting his foot in it.
21:17 But he had felt Jesus love; he had known
21:22 that Jesus cared about him.
21:25 And his heart had responded to that
21:27 and I think that's what, what pulled him back
21:29 to Jesus. He knew that kind of a life changing
21:31 love was there and he wanted to go back and say,
21:34 yeah, and, and turn his life over to it again.
21:36 Yeah, and I think if you hit upon a very
21:39 important point and that's what I was heading
21:41 that Judas and Peter both made mistakes
21:48 for which they had remorse, they both were
21:51 remorseful. One turned it in, the other gave it
21:55 to Jesus. So, that it occurs to me that going
21:59 full circle where we started out that the cure
22:01 for guilt is giving it to Christ, and an
22:06 understanding of the fact that whatever
22:08 you've done, first Jesus is not caught unawares,
22:12 He is not surprised, and if the truth we know
22:17 the devil is not surprised either.
22:18 The only person that maybe surprised
22:19 is you because you don't really know yourself,
22:21 but, but the, the road to healing is paved
22:25 with surrender of whatever it is to Jesus,
22:30 given the knowledge that when you come to him,
22:32 he will know why he's cast you out,
22:33 in regards of what you, what you've done,
22:35 would you, would you agree?
22:36 I would, I would, I picture either of those
22:38 stories, now, Judas or Peter doing what we do
22:42 so many times, or suppose Judas hadn't hanged
22:45 himself, suppose Judas just carried that burden
22:48 of guilt around and every time he met with his
22:50 former associates. Oh! You all know
22:52 what I've done, I've, I've been so guilty I,
22:55 you know, I sold Jesus, I can never be
22:58 forgiven, and he spend his whole life holding
23:00 onto that guilt. He would never have been anyone
23:02 but a miserable person, correct.
23:04 And in same way if Peter had done that,
23:06 if he had assumed he couldn't been forgiven,
23:08 if he had, if he had thrown this guilt over
23:11 his shoulder and carry it the rest of his life,
23:12 he would have always been the one who denied
23:16 Jesus and, you couldn't come back,
23:19 and yet in either case Jesus would
23:22 have forgiven, yeah, when they ask.
23:24 Yeah, it occurs to me Jerry that carrying around
23:28 the load of guilt, one is almost a slap on the
23:31 face of Jesus, because he lives, he exists
23:35 to free you from that. So, to carry it is almost
23:38 to say your sacrifice is not, is not good
23:41 enough for me. And how that must wound
23:43 heart of God is like you've money in the bank,
23:46 and you're living on the street, and a banker
23:49 is chasing you and you're saying,
23:50 listen write a check. You know, you've got,
23:51 you've got money in the bank just write a check,
23:53 and you, I'm not writing that check.
23:55 Well, why not, the money is there. I just,
23:58 I rather live on the street. So, to carry the
24:00 guilt you know despite your tremendous
24:03 sacrifice that Christ has already made.
24:06 I thought that the other day, I was on a plane
24:09 and you know, I put my bag up in the overhead
24:12 storage, and this older woman was there next
24:16 to me struggling with her bag.
24:17 And I offered to help her, put the bag up there
24:20 and she snapped and pushed away and said,
24:23 oh! No, like don't touch my bag, yes, yes,
24:25 I know who you are, but don't touch my stuff.
24:27 And so, here I'm unable to help her at all,
24:29 she struggles and tries to keep put it in place.
24:32 I could have helped I didn't you know,
24:35 I didn't have any intention of injuring
24:36 her back, but because she refused,
24:38 I couldn't help her with her burden at all.
24:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in fact,
24:42 like you said it's, somewhat offensive,
24:44 it's like, I'm not good enough to even touch
24:46 her bag, right, I'm just trying to help you lady,
24:49 yeah that kind of thing. But, yeah,
24:51 I think God must be sometimes feeling in a
24:53 similar way that I could do this,
24:55 but you've to let me. And I see at that point
24:59 were guilt which could be a positive thing becomes
25:03 almost a carcinogenic kind of Satan used thing
25:06 because it keeps you from the source of,
25:07 of your help and your, and your strength.
25:10 And I think you see that a lot in people who carry
25:13 a burden of guilt from childhood often for things
25:16 that were not their fault, yes, whether its the
25:17 divorce of their parents or some other
25:19 unfortunate incident and they, they feel guilty
25:22 and they carry that burden into adulthood
25:24 and they can't ever have normal relationship,
25:27 they can't ever grow and go on because the,
25:29 the guilt is just holding them back, yeah.
25:31 And Satan has turned it into an anchor on
25:33 their souls that just almost won't come loose.
25:36 Yeah, yeah, I'm thinking you know,
25:39 I'm thinking of people in, in my ministry,
25:41 in the time that I pastored, who carried
25:43 around a load of guilt and were never able to
25:46 really free themselves from that.
25:48 And we're also never able to really enjoy the
25:52 salvation experience because you've had
25:54 this cloud that there were always under and
25:58 this fearful expectation because they were
26:00 not free in, in Christ. Yeah, how long,
26:03 how long a chapter is this in the book?
26:05 Oh! It's, I think it's two chapters together
26:10 is probably 12 pages altogether in the book,
26:13 but each of the chapters in the book form as
26:16 some thought questions afterward to make you
26:18 sort of go through these ideas and,
26:21 and think of your own life, because like
26:23 you said at the start we all carry burdens
26:25 of guilt, they may not be tremendous ones, yes,
26:27 we may be able to ignore the most days,
26:29 but they weigh us down in the dark moments
26:32 of our life. And when we're hearing that voice
26:35 of Satan would spring out have no good and,
26:37 never were any good, no in that sense one
26:40 ever you did, whatever that's caused you
26:42 such guilt, yeah. And God wants to take
26:44 that all away; we just have to let it go.
26:47 If someone came to you, you had five minutes to,
26:51 to help them and they say, I'm,
26:53 I'm just feeling down, I know I've done some
26:56 stuff is unresolved and I just can't seem
26:59 to get free. What would your quick course
27:02 one on one be relieve them self from guilt.
27:05 What would your prescription be?
27:11 You know, the quick answer is just to say okay
27:12 let's kneel down right here and we'll ask God
27:15 for forgiveness. And you know, you could do that,
27:18 but chances are the person has tried
27:19 that before. I think you've to go back to what
27:22 we were saying here and that's what I would
27:24 want to do to point out to them.
27:26 That this is a miracle; you're asking God to
27:28 change the laws of time and space for you,
27:31 yeah, to change the nature of your own heart,
27:33 yes. But he would do that, if you're ask him.
27:37 And I think Jerry that's the perfect note for us
27:40 to end on that it is a miracle,
27:43 but it will be done if we ask Jesus.
27:46 He is still in the miracle working business,
27:48 all we've to do is ask and He will do that for us.
27:52 Thank you so very much for being with us.
27:54 And until we are together again,
27:57 may I wish you all the best in Jesus.