Participants: Agatha Thrash, Don Miller
Series Code: HYTH
Program Code: HYTH000177
00:01 Hello, I'm Agatha Thrash
00:03 a staff Physician at Uchee Pines Institute.
00:07 I think one of the most entertaining and perhaps
00:12 exciting adventures that I have engaged in my life has
00:16 been that of looking into vegetarianism.
00:21 I remember when I was a little girl and though about
00:24 being a vegetarian, I thought well that's very strange
00:27 I never thought I would be one.
00:28 We're going to discuss some aspects of being vegetarian
00:32 in the next half an hour and we hope that you will join us.
00:55 Welcome to
00:57 with Dr. Agatha Thrash of Uchee Pines Institute,
01:01 and now here is your host, Dr. Thrash.
01:04 When we began to eat vegetarian cuisine in my home,
01:10 I remember the first thing that we did was simply to start
01:14 cutting down on the intake of meat.
01:17 Then it wasn't very long before we decided that
01:20 we could eat some meals that were completely meatless,
01:25 and so that's what we did.
01:26 We just had a meal that was just a lot of vegetables
01:31 which was very nice anyway, we had grown up that way,
01:35 my husband and I had both grown up on farms
01:37 and on the farm when the vegetable garden starts
01:41 coming in, I remember my mother would sometimes just have a
01:44 table filled with all sorts of vegetables that came from
01:48 our garden.
01:49 We didn't mind at all that there was no meat
01:52 because there was so many delightful vegetables,
01:55 but in my home once we had started cutting down on meat
02:00 then we had a few thing that we had to face.
02:02 Number one was what do we do when we eat out?
02:05 Well we always ate meat when we ate out, because generally
02:09 speaking, you expect that you are going to be served
02:12 meat when you eat out.
02:13 So then one day somebody said to us, why don't you try
02:18 the nice vegetarian cuisine that they have here in
02:21 this restaurant?
02:23 So we tried that and it was delightful, so after that
02:26 we began to look for restaurants that had vegetarian lines
02:31 along their serving area.
02:35 Then as time went by I began to recognize that
02:39 I didn't feel as good when I ate meat.
02:41 So I said to my husband one day, I just don't feel good,
02:45 we were in the Miami airport and we had just eaten a
02:47 Filet Minon, which was really quite good, but I said
02:51 I don't think I will ever eat meat again.
02:53 He said you know I've noticed that I don't feel good
02:57 when I eat meat, and I said yes I've decided
03:00 I am not going to eaten meat any more,
03:02 from that day on, I don't think I've had any meat.
03:05 It wasn't long before the entire household was using
03:10 a meat free diet.
03:11 Now I found that children were a little hard to convince
03:15 at one time or other because they'd think I would like
03:17 to have a hotdog or hamburger, so we began to look for
03:21 substitutes for these and at first we began to lean
03:24 rather heavily on the meat substitutes, but as time went by
03:28 even those we stopped using.
03:30 Now we just talk it up and we recognize a lot of the
03:36 benefits, the heart benefits, the gastrointestinal benefits,
03:41 the benefits for the blood pressure, the protection
03:44 against diabetes, and against poor vision, and
03:47 those kinds of things, so as time has gone by we have
03:51 become more and more convinced of the beauties of the
03:55 vegetarian diet.
03:56 Now one of the problems is, how do you go from preparing
04:00 a meat based diet in your kitchen to preparing a
04:03 totally vegetarian based diet in your kitchen,
04:07 so I've asked Lidia Seda who is a very excellent cook
04:11 and has prepared some very nice things...
04:13 Thank you Lidia for coming today and I'd like you to
04:17 tell us how you prepared some of these very delightful
04:21 things that you have here.
04:22 - Well what we have here is basically just to give everyone
04:26 an idea of what you can have, you can have a lot of
04:29 vegetables, some fruit, and also a mashed potato
04:33 with a gravy dish as well. - Oh, mashed potatoes.
04:35 - Yes, yes, without any butter, without any of the heavy oils
04:41 and heavy fats in them as well.
04:43 - How does one mash potatoes without dairy milk and butter?
04:48 - Well you can use soy milk instead, or you can make
04:52 a cashew milk or any other type of milk and use that instead,
04:57 and that gives a nicer thicker consistency.
04:59 - Sounds as if you can even make a nice potato soup
05:02 just using soy milk and potatoes.
05:04 - Exactly! Maybe a little bit of salt and a little basil.
05:08 - I can envision that you might even make a potato soufflé
05:11 in the same way. - Exactly!
05:12 - Potatoes that are maybe something like par-boiled
05:15 and some onions that are chopped there an maybe
05:17 braised a little bit before you put them on, pour soy milk
05:21 over it and put it in the oven and bake it.
05:23 It makes my mouth water just to think of it.
05:26 - Very simple and it doesn't take all that much time
05:30 I think many times now-a-days people don't take time to eat
05:34 well and to prepare, and fast foods are what people
05:38 have in mind, but it is not nutritious foods.
05:41 - Yes, I always wonder what people are going to do
05:43 with the time that they save in fast food places because
05:47 what is more important than taking care of the food that
05:53 we eat, because we think with the food that we eat,
05:56 we sing with the food we eat, we pray with the food we eat,
05:58 we do everything that we are going to do with the food
06:02 that we eat. - Exactly!
06:03 May times I tell people, we may spend a little more time
06:07 in preparation if you are not accustomed to preparing,
06:10 especially if you are accustomed to eating out all the time.
06:12 But you may save a lot more money on doctor bills
06:15 and the time that you spend in the doctor's office as well,
06:18 and time that you loose from work, and money that you may
06:22 lose because you may have to be out of work.
06:25 In the long run, taking care of yourself, you have
06:28 better health and you will save some time and
06:31 some money as well.
06:32 - You know Lidia, it is true that at first you will
06:36 probably spend more time in the kitchen cooking
06:38 the vegetarian things than you've been accustomed to
06:41 cooking the familiar meat dishes... - Exactly!
06:44 because you are learning. - But I can assure you
06:47 that I don't spend all day in the kitchen.
06:49 I enjoy cooking but that is not my favorite activity,
06:53 so I go to the kitchen and cook and it's done.
06:57 Or if I am going to cook I may cook enough for 3 or 4
07:00 meals, and then I freeze the rest and I have just a portion
07:06 that we are going to have for that meal.
07:07 - Just like any other cook that is used to cooking
07:09 would prepare and then store some and freeze some
07:13 and have some for later on.
07:15 Those are the same principals. - Same principals. - Exactly!
07:17 - And the same principals for preparing a menu.
07:20 I remember when I was using meat as the meat based diet,
07:24 it was the meat, something green, something yellow,
07:27 a bread, a spread, a beverage, and that was the meal.
07:31 - Exactly! Exactly! - It is exactly the same way
07:34 a main dish, a cooked dish, a raw dish, a bread and spread
07:37 and if anybody needs it you've got water
07:41 as a beverage and you have the meal.
07:44 - Exactly! The nice thing about this is that it is low
07:47 protein, and...
07:50 - Low in protein now that's... - Yes it is.
07:51 - I didn't expect... - Ohhh, that is a curve ball
07:55 that I just threw in there. - Because most nutritionists
07:58 don't say low protein, they say high, now
08:01 why do you say low in protein?
08:05 - We have to recognize that humans don't necessarily need
08:10 the same amount of proteins that other species do
08:12 and we can see that especial with the younger species,
08:17 babies, when they are growing and a human baby let's
08:21 say needs about 1.2 mg per liter of calcium to be able
08:29 to double it's birth weight in about 120 days,
08:31 and a calf would need about 3.3 mg of calcium, excuse me,
08:37 of protein per liter to be able to double it's birth weight
08:41 in about 47 days, and a cat may need about 7.5- 9.5 mg
08:51 of protein to be able to double it's birth weight
08:53 in about 7 days.
08:55 So depending on the species is the need for protein.
09:00 - As specific as the finger print, is the quantity of the
09:05 protein in the mother's milk.
09:07 - Exactly!
09:08 - To make the little animal do exactly what the creator
09:12 wanted it to do. - To be able for it to grow.
09:15 - So you mean once we get grown then we are not
09:17 going to need so much protein any more?
09:19 - Exactly! - So we don't need milk
09:20 any more? - Exactly!
09:21 Well what happens is, once the child is weaned the
09:26 the best thing that they wean from is the mother's milk
09:29 if possible, and after that they can have soy milk
09:33 or nut milks if you want to continue giving them
09:36 certain types of milk that would be fine.
09:38 What happens is many times after they are weaned
09:41 if the mother is breast feeding they receive cows milk
09:46 so the nutrition that the calf might need goes to the infant
09:52 who doesn't have the same needs and so the child grows
09:56 much quicker than maybe need be, and accelerated
10:00 growth also contributes to accelerated time when
10:04 they come to puberty at a much earlier age as well.
10:07 - And that is undesirable. - Undesirable, exactly.
10:09 What they have found also that accelerated aging
10:13 will cause accelerated death and certain diseases
10:17 that are degenerative, like diabetes, arthritis,
10:20 even cancers.
10:22 The idea is like putting a log into a fire place
10:27 in comparison to putting wood shavings,
10:30 which ones would burn up faster?
10:32 The wood shavings of course.
10:34 So the idea is putting something into the body that the body
10:37 needs, and we have to know the needs of the body as well.
10:40 Another experiment that they did with men, they gave them
10:45 about 1,400 mg calcium and then they gave them protein,
10:52 they had 2 different groups, one group had about 48
10:57 grams of protein, the other group had about 142 grams
11:03 of protein, and what they found in these two groups
11:06 even though they had the same amount of calcium
11:08 that the group that had the lower amount of protein
11:11 was able to retain more calcium, about 10 mg of calcium.
11:16 But the group that had the high amount of protein
11:21 they actually were losing about 84 mg of calcium.
11:25 - I see what you are saying the higher your protein intake
11:29 the more calcium you are going to be loosing.
11:31 - Exactly!
11:33 - So if you have a high protein diet you must have
11:35 a high calcium diet to... and hope that you can hold on
11:40 to some of it. - Exactly!
11:41 So what happens over a period of time, this can cause
11:44 osteoporosis, it's a thinning of the bones.
11:48 So having a high protein diet is not necessary and
11:52 a vegetarian will get a good 75 grams of protein
11:56 per day and what the RDA recommends for men is about
12:01 54 grams, and for women is about 45 grams of protein
12:05 and that's well over the required amount.
12:08 Cause I understand Dr. Agatha that you've even recommended
12:12 at times that if we are eating a good balanced diet
12:15 that maybe even 20- 25 grams of protein would be suffice
12:20 and many other doctors feel the same way.
12:21 - It suffices but probably nobody ever achieves
12:26 that low a level. - Yes, it's really hard to do.
12:28 - Really hard to do because when we were trying to get
12:32 our kidney patients on a low protein diet,
12:35 maybe around 20 grams of protein per day
12:38 we had to go to such extreme measures as giving them
12:42 starch crackers and forget any kind of unrefined food
12:50 we were trying to refine out all the protein that we can
12:54 and give them just very refined things, lots of oil,
12:57 and things of that nature, just to keep their calories up.
13:00 - Even on a vegetarian diet to have a protein level
13:03 that is that low anyway. - But if you have well
13:06 selected protein 20- 25 grams is usually enough for a person
13:11 in a day, but none of us is able to achieve such a low level
13:16 unless we take special measures.
13:18 - Exactly! And another wonderful thing about a good vegetarian
13:21 diet is that it is high in fiber, and many of you have
13:25 heard fiber being totaled, and it should be totaled,
13:29 it should be totaled up well and high because they have found
13:32 that individuals that consume anywhere from 25- 35 grams
13:36 of fiber per day can reduce their risk of cancers.
13:43 Also now they are finding is that anyone who eats about
13:46 50 grams to 100 grams of fiber per day will actually reduce
13:53 their chances of acquiring diabetes as well.
13:56 The average American consumes about 15% of their diet in fiber
14:01 which is quite low, and it's because many of the foods
14:05 that the average American eats, or individuals of an affluent
14:09 societies is high in fat, high in cholesterol, but very low
14:14 in fiber, empty calories.
14:16 - That's to bad. Now I see here that you have
14:20 this as if you were intending this to be a main dish.
14:25 - Yes I am. - This potato, and you have
14:28 what kind of gravy is this on it?
14:30 - A cashew gravy. - A cashew gravy.
14:31 Well that would be in protein, of course that is not a lot,
14:36 that you don't have a lot of gravy.
14:37 - No I don't. - So it's not a huge amount
14:41 of cashews and we want to keep cashews down because
14:44 they are a rather concentrated food.
14:46 So you've got potatoes and cashew gravy and that's
14:49 a main dish. - It is a main dish.
14:51 - That's good, I'm glad to know that because you know
14:54 potatoes are so freely available everywhere
14:57 and if I could have this as a main dish then I have a yellow
15:00 vegetable or a green vegetable, and what you have here
15:05 a vegetable platter. - A vegetable platter.
15:06 What is in the middle of the vegetable platter?
15:09 - The vegetable platter has a soy mayonnaise
15:14 that we have made.
15:16 - Uhuh, soy mayonnaise, ahh, that smells good.
15:23 Does it have maybe a little bit of garlic in it?
15:25 - A little garlic, it has onion as well and it is
15:30 quite simple and if any of you would like to know how
15:33 to prepare this recipe, then let me share with you how you
15:36 can get a hold of it, it is:
15:42 then you press links, then you go to Uchee Pines and that's
15:47 UCHEE the word PINES, and if you are interested
15:53 in some of the other recipes that we have here
15:55 I would like to share them with you and the ingredients are
15:58 as follows:
16:22 And another recipe that we have here that I would like
16:24 to share with you is a broccoli salad.
16:27 - Oh that looks very simple but very nice.
16:30 - It's very nice, that spring onion there, some fresh cut
16:34 garlic cloves, and they can be steamed a little bit
16:37 so it takes away a little bit of the bite, and this is some
16:41 raw broccoli and again you can steam it just a little bit
16:44 if you like, but sometimes it is a good idea to have some
16:47 raw vegetables in your meal.
16:49 - And if they are nice and tender I like them just raw.
16:52 - Exactly!
16:53 - Do you have a recipe for this? - Yes I do!
16:55 For those of you who are interested the ingredients for
16:58 the Broccoli Salad is as follows:
17:20 - So you just put all this together?
17:22 - That's it, it is very simple.
17:24 - Yes, I can see myself just sort of sprinkling this
17:26 and sprinkling this and just tossing it in just no time.
17:31 - I think when someone sits down to this type of meal
17:34 they've prepared, something that is simple,
17:37 something they know that is nutritious, and also
17:39 something they feel like they actually benefitting
17:42 their bodies by what they are eating.
17:44 I think it just gives a sense of importance when we
17:47 think in the Bible that the Lord says we are fearfully
17:50 and wonderfully made, and I think we should eat according
17:52 to that principal.
17:53 - Absolutely, we need to recognize that this equipment
17:57 that we have is not just any kind of old equipment,
18:01 this is a very special machine that we are dealing with
18:06 and of course we want to take good care of it.
18:09 There are a number of things that we can talk about
18:12 concerning the vegetarian cuisine and to understand
18:16 just what to leave out has been quite a trial,
18:19 but the next thing that I would like for us to do is
18:22 to have Don Miller join me here and to tell you some things
18:27 that I think will be very helpful to you...
18:30 are you going to talk to us about precocious puberty
18:33 Don Miller?
18:34 - A little bit. - This is Don Miller,
18:35 who is a Lifestyle Counselor at Uchee Pines.
18:38 - You know, usually when we think of the word precocious
18:41 we think of in a very positive way.
18:44 If a child is precocious, we think that they could talk to us
18:48 intelligently, they play well with other children,
18:51 they seem to have a little bit more social graces.
18:54 I find that many home schooled children seem to be a little bit
18:58 more precocious because they are allowed to expand
19:01 their minds, these I think are very good things.
19:03 It's the precocious physical development which leads to
19:08 a precocious chemical development in the body
19:11 which I feel is very dangerous in today's society.
19:15 We see precocious children growing up today,
19:18 you see them waddling into the first years of school looking
19:22 like Suma wrestlers already, and I think that is a problem
19:26 with that much development in a child.
19:28 This comes about mainly from the habit of overeating
19:33 and the overuse of animal foods.
19:35 Over eating is something that is very common in children,
19:39 it's a habit that a child gets into either forcing a child
19:43 to finish what's on the plate, what you put on the plate
19:45 for them, and you can't leave the table until you eat it.
19:48 Or putting a lot of food on their plate and saying,
19:51 if you finish everything you have you can have dessert.
19:53 Both of those things are going to make a child overeat,
19:56 and overeating will advance the child's metabolism
20:01 to the point where it will really slow it down and make
20:03 him start growing larger, and then all the animal
20:06 foods that we put into a child.
20:08 Which we can see now days they could not have even of
20:12 questioned that they had all the hormones,
20:14 growth hormones into food because we want to make the
20:17 animals grow fast, because the faster the animals grow
20:19 the sooner we get them to market.
20:21 The trouble is, the thing called bio-magnification
20:25 all these hormones in the animal the child is putting into
20:28 their body, and this child all of a sudden starts growing
20:31 as fast as that cow does, and pretty soon hormones
20:35 are shooting out through that child and the child
20:37 is not ready to handle these changes in their bodies.
20:40 I think it is a very sad thing that we see in the children.
20:44 - Yes it is, and of course we do know that the more rapidly
20:48 a child matures, the more rapidly he is going to go into
20:52 the senile decline, and of course that is something that
20:56 we don't want at all with our children.
20:58 I have here a kidney, which I would like to show you,
21:04 it's a plastic model but it shows fairly well the way
21:08 that the kidney actually looks internally.
21:11 I think that the kidney is one of the most beautiful
21:13 of our internal organs, we might think that is a little
21:16 strange, but it is so regular, everything about it is so neat.
21:22 The little lines that go here can be seen with the naked eye,
21:27 just as you can see them here, these are called medullary rays
21:31 and out here in this sort of pinkish part, that is the cortex
21:37 and this is really the business part of the kidneys.
21:41 This is where the urine is formed,
21:43 this is also where the blood is purified, this is where
21:47 our minerals are balanced.
21:49 An enormous amount of activity goes on right here,
21:53 this is why when a person has a problem with the kidneys,
21:57 they cannot live without the kidneys.
22:00 Of course we can take out a number of organs and people
22:02 can live without those, but you can't take out the kidneys
22:05 and live, you can take out one and then the other kidney
22:09 fortunately can overgrow and supply it's place.
22:13 What we want to do when we think about the kidney is to
22:18 do those things that will protect it:
22:20 Drinking lots of water is one thing, one very important thing,
22:23 not eating to much protein is another very important thing
22:27 and a vegetarian diet is usually helpful with both of those.
22:31 It provides more water, and it also provides a lower protein
22:36 meal for satisfaction of our appetites and still does not
22:42 give us to much protein.
22:43 Another thing, a lot of vegetarian foods are soy based
22:48 and soy protein has a protective effect for this part out here
22:54 that I told you was the business part of the kidneys,
22:57 the cortex, the kidney cortex, and this protein actually
23:02 has a healing and protective benefit.
23:05 If you form a stone, the stone is going to form probably
23:09 somewhere at the tip of these little pyramids and you can see
23:14 that there is then an opening which is somewhat like a funnel,
23:17 here it is, it is cut away right here and there you can see the
23:23 funnel part, and then the little stone forms there, falls down
23:29 into the pelvis of the kidney, then goes down the ureter
23:34 all the way down to the bladder.
23:37 Now kidney stones are also more likely to be formed in people
23:42 who eat a lot of animal protein and in people who drink a lot
23:45 of soft drinks, they are more likely to get kidney stones
23:50 and then have to treat your kidney stones becomes a serious
23:55 problem, and maybe an extremely expensive problem as well.
23:59 So in many ways the vegetarian cuisine is very protective,
24:06 very helpful for people who are willing to adapt it.
24:10 Now there is a downside to the meat problem, the meat industry
24:18 that we need to discuss somewhat, which may help you
24:22 if you were sort of teetering on the fence of whether to be
24:24 a vegetarian or not. If you know the downside
24:27 it may help you to be a vegetarian which as a
24:30 physician, I feel very free to promote for people so Don Miller
24:36 is going to talk with you a little bit about some toxins
24:40 in animals.
24:41 - I am going to just limit it to fish because of the amount
24:45 of time remaining, but I want to read to you a section
24:48 out of the clean water act and here is what it says.
24:52 This is always what we believed I'm afraid that we passed down,
24:57 dilution is the solution to pollution.
25:00 Chemicals dumped in mixing zones can include mercury,
25:04 BCB's, Chlordane, BCC, Dioxin, and Matrix, as well as
25:10 many other chemicals, so basically what they are saying
25:13 there are places in water which are called mixing zones,
25:16 and we are allowed to dump toxins into these mixing zones
25:19 it is allowed by the Clean Water Act.
25:21 Now what happens, we've got these chemicals in the water.
25:24 In the water we have fish, now what I want to do is
25:27 show you over here at the white board...
25:29 I want to show you a little study they did in the
25:31 Long Island Sound in 1968.
25:36 Basically you've got this water that's all the run off from the
25:41 land where you've got all kinds of chemicals and whatever else
25:44 flowing into the water.
25:46 Basically your zooplankton, plankton, the little plants
25:49 that live in the water are absorbing the little animals
25:52 that live in the water are accumulating these toxins
25:57 in their little bodies about 800 times.
26:01 This is what we call bio-accumulation at the first
26:05 level of the food chain its about that much,
26:10 now we've got some fish swimming through the water
26:13 eating the zooplankton, so they will in their little bodies
26:18 about 31 times accumulation.
26:22 So they are going to eat this and all the chemicals
26:26 that we might have in the water will be accumulated in their
26:30 fat cells, and then fish number two eats fish number one,
26:34 and that takes up about another 1.7 times from this fish,
26:38 1.7 times. So what we have to do is
26:40 multiply this times this, times this.
26:44 Now the next step we go to is the sea gull who eats this fish,
26:48 it takes up about 4.8 times, if you multiply all this
26:55 together, it comes out to about 202,368 times what is was
27:02 when it first came into the water.
27:04 This is what happens when we eat an animal, a fish,
27:08 this is what happens when we eat the fish.
27:10 All the toxins that have been going into this water from
27:14 the runoff and the sewage, from the factories and the ships
27:17 that flow through the water are accumulating slowly
27:20 but surely through the food chain, until finally we're
27:23 taking in fantastic amounts of these very deadly chemicals
27:30 in our bodies, so my thoughts are it is not time to be a
27:33 fish-o-vegetarian, its time to be a strict vegetarian leaving
27:37 off of all animal products Dr. Thrash.
27:39 - Well, I can tell you, you have convinced me and although
27:43 I used to enjoy fish, I don't think I ever will again.
27:46 Thank you so much for presenting these things to us,
27:50 and with all of this we do hope that you will consider
27:54 affirm being a vegetarian.