Participants: Wynn Horsely, Don Miller, Agatha Thrash
Series Code: HYTH
Program Code: HYTH000164
00:01 Hello, I'm Agatha Thrash one of the staff physicians
00:04 at Uchee Pines Institute.
00:07 We deal a lot in the heart and the heart is one of those
00:11 organs most involved in getting a beating from a wrong lifestyle
00:18 So, we will be talking, during the next half an hour
00:20 about what you can do to help yourself not get a beating
00:26 in the heart from a poor lifestyle.
00:29 So we hope you will join us.
00:49 Welcome to "Help Yourself to Health"
00:51 with Dr. Agatha Thrash of Uchee Pines Institute
00:55 And now, here's your host, Dr. Thrash.
00:59 We read a lot and we hear a lot about life style
01:03 and how it's wrong, or how it's good.
01:07 And what can be done to make it so that the heart
01:10 is LESS likely to have a problem from
01:13 poor lifestyle problems.
01:15 Now you know, in this country, we find a lot, we read a lot
01:19 in newspapers.
01:20 I have some papers here in my hand, some reprints
01:24 of medical journals that tell about all these problems
01:28 that we have in our lifestyle.
01:31 All of those things that we can do that will correct
01:34 these lifestyles and so I'm very happy that we have SO much
01:38 that's written and so much that's spoken about
01:40 today that can give us some help,
01:43 so that the things that we have done since childhood
01:47 ...the way that our parents lived that gave them diabetes
01:50 and heart disease and hypertension...
01:52 We know a lot now about things that can help us not to succumb
01:57 to those diseases.
01:59 So, I've asked one of my colleagues at Uchee Pines
02:03 Dr. Winn Horsley, to join me so that we can discuss for you
02:07 some of those issues that can strengthen the body
02:12 This is Dr. Winn Horsley, who is
02:14 one of our physicians at Uchee Pines.
02:17 And I am interested in our talking some about maybe
02:23 the difference between animal foods or foods of animal origin
02:28 and foods of plant origin.
02:31 Of course today, we're hearing a good bit about that
02:34 and just what we can do ourselves...
02:37 Are all plants good?
02:39 Are all animal products not good?
02:41 And what can you tell us about this item?
02:46 Well, one of the terms that's used a fair bit is the
02:52 expression... "saturated vs. unsaturated fats"
02:57 and the relation of that to another term... "cholesterol"
03:04 I think is worth talking about for a minute.
03:09 Now, unsaturated fats are in many vegetable
03:17 and plant products...
03:18 the big majority would be what would be
03:20 called "unsaturated fats. "
03:23 They are generally liquid ... liquid oils
03:27 Liquid at room temperature...
03:29 ...at room temperature.
03:30 If you have a saturated fat of the usual kind of
03:37 edible food types of saturated fat,
03:41 they are often SOLID at room temperature.
03:44 You mean like a lard? Lard, Crisco, butter... so on.
03:49 And, in fact, the process of hydrogenation takes
03:54 an unsaturated fat and makes it into a saturated one...
03:58 Like corn oil and saturates the carbon chain
04:05 and makes it into a hard fat... That's right. That's right.
04:08 So, that's one aspect of the issue.
04:13 Now, since we're talking about heart disease,
04:16 we've got to get to those lesions in the heart...
04:19 the plugging of the arteries that occurs
04:22 and if they're already are deposits in those arteries,
04:31 then saturated fat can get entangled in that...
04:37 and add to it.
04:38 So the cholesterol goes in first,
04:41 then you eat saturated fats, and it can get entangled
04:46 in the plaque inside the artery as well... That's right!
04:49 You went right ahead and pointed out,
04:51 the real ultimate, basic culprit is that cholesterol
04:55 that first sticks on the wall.
04:58 It's not saturated fats that start or are the
05:02 primary enemy here.
05:05 Now the wall itself, or the lining itself...
05:09 Is it somehow... doomed from the birth of the person
05:14 to get cholesterol stuck on it?
05:17 No... maybe it would be worthwhile to show an artery
05:24 with the deposit that's forming Good, yes.
05:43 Now here's an artery that should be wide open,
05:44 and we have it this way, so the blood can just course
05:47 through it.
05:48 If we get a deposit forming, of course that will interfere
05:55 with the flow...
05:56 And the initial factor, the initial substance
06:00 that causes this is one of the fractions of cholesterol
06:05 that will stick... it's sticky.. to the surface on the inside
06:11 of the artery.
06:14 Now, once it there, you can get saturated fat entangled.
06:20 Now maybe one should say a word about cholesterol...
06:25 We shouldn't think of cholesterol as totally an enemy
06:28 We need cholesterol in our body.
06:32 It's the basis for building several hormones...
06:35 But, the essential point is that all the cholesterol we need
06:40 is produced by our liver.
06:42 You don't need any from the outside.
06:46 And the BIG problem is...
06:47 that the cholesterol that comes from the outside actually
06:50 has changed...
06:51 The oxygen in the air has changed it, so it becomes toxic
06:56 So that cholesterol that might come in eggs or in meat products
07:01 or milk or cheese... has been changed by the oxygen in the air
07:09 to make a more damaging type of cholesterol... Exactly
07:14 Called oxidized cholesterol... That's right.
07:18 And with respect to cholesterol, I think it's worthwhile
07:24 for us just to take a minute to point out where it is.
07:27 Now the saturated and nonsaturated fats are in various
07:35 plant foods.
07:36 There is some saturated fat in nuts...
07:41 There's also some unsaturated fats... it varies according to
07:44 what nuts you have.
07:45 BUT, there is no cholesterol at all in any plant food.
07:53 None at all... even in coconut which does have a lot of
07:57 saturated fat.
07:59 Now, if it's not in plant foods, where's the cholesterol?
08:03 Well, it's all in the animal foods.
08:06 And here, I'd like to point out, people I think feel better
08:11 when they use skim milk... feeling that, you know,
08:14 you've taken the fat out.
08:16 And, cholesterol is called a fat.
08:19 It's a kind of fat but it's a very special kind of fat
08:22 And, in fact, it is not all removed with making skim milk
08:28 There are, I believe it's 5 mg approximately
08:34 in an average cup of skim milk.
08:36 Now if you use powdered skim milk,
08:39 you're in a worse problem because the very process
08:44 of evaporating and having using all that air to make
08:47 powdered skim milk, oxidizes whatever cholesterol
08:51 was there and makes it more damaging.
08:53 So if you take a powder and make a glass of milk,
08:59 and you feel really good about it,
09:02 because, you know, it's been skimmed...
09:05 It's called "fat-free" Yes...
09:08 Then you feel good about it, but that little bit that is
09:11 left, is quite damaging. Absolutely.
09:15 Now one other aspect of this problem that we should mention
09:21 is that people will, therefore, try to avoid fat
09:27 in animal products...
09:29 You've probably heard of this.
09:30 You know, hunting for lean meat... and so on.
09:34 One thing that I think is not generally realized...
09:38 And I believe it's not even generally realized
09:40 in the nutrition and medical community is some research
09:44 ...some very careful research that we done at Loma Linda
09:48 quite a few years ago which pointed out... proved
09:53 that animal products...
09:55 Well, let's be specific in what the research was...
09:57 They used milk. Milk from cows...
10:00 Compared its effect on the blood cholesterol of animals
10:06 with other animals that got soymilk...
10:10 And the interesting thing was...
10:12 The ones that received the cow's milk, which was
10:18 completely defatted...
10:19 Now this time, I believe they took out all the cholesterol
10:22 as well as all the fat, so it was not only skim milk,
10:25 it was TOTALLY fat-free and cholesterol-free.
10:29 Nevertheless, those animals had a rise in the cholesterol
10:34 in blood; whereas, the ones that took the soymilk
10:39 had a drop in the cholesterol.
10:41 Very interesting... It is!
10:43 And the only way that the researcher could explain this,
10:45 and I think it's the only way to explain it...
10:47 is that the protein... perhaps something else but
10:50 main ingredient of milk, aside from the fat would be
10:53 the protein... animal protein raises blood cholesterol.
10:58 Well that would make sense because, certainly with milk,
11:03 our Great Divine Designer created that milk to make
11:08 little animals grow, so it has a growth factor in it
11:11 and the growth factor would make the growth of anything
11:16 that might be either normal, or abnormal in the body...
11:20 that growth factor could cause the interior of a blood vessel
11:25 to grow and that would make it more susceptible
11:29 to getting the cholesterol deposited in it
11:31 in the first place... Right.
11:36 At this point, since there are so many things that one could
11:39 say about cholesterol and its fractions...
11:43 People have heard of HDL, LDL, and so on,
11:46 and some of the issues that we're already discussing
11:50 about saturated and unsaturated fat and cholesterol...
11:54 The picture can, sometimes, get a little bit muddy...
11:57 And people wonder, well what's the underlying story here...
12:00 And, as you look closely at it, the bottom line,
12:10 is that we really need to avoid animal products
12:14 In other words, that rule of eating that God gave back
12:18 in the Garden of Eden, you just can't do better than that,
12:22 which is "of all these trees, and of the plants bearing seed
12:26 ...these will be your food. "
12:27 Take your food from the plants that God has made for us
12:31 and that will certainly be the very best thing.
12:34 Now if a person has a buildup on the inside of the blood vessels
12:39 of this cholesterol and other fatty deposits,
12:42 and has a heart attack, is there something that
12:45 THAT person... already damaged by his heart attack...
12:51 Is there more to lifestyle than diet that would help the person
12:56 with avoiding a coronary artery attack in the future?
13:01 There is something further that one could say...
13:05 I just feel like the FIRST part about diet is so
13:10 central... more important than anything further
13:12 that we could say, that it needs tremendous emphasis...
13:16 No person can avoid a change in diet... even those who are
13:21 on a relatively good diet usually need some changes,
13:26 Correct... Or some adjustments of some kind.
13:28 And that little bit of animal product that people are using,
13:31 even looking in ingredients and seeing... is there
13:33 a very small amount of the milk product being used.
13:37 It really is worthwhile to track that down and get rid of it.
13:41 Just remember this point, the underlying culprit
13:45 is the cholesterol.
13:46 There is no cholesterol in ANY of the plant products.
13:52 But going beyond then...
13:54 Yes, there are things we can do.
14:00 We should, perhaps, put up on the board..
14:07 the good cholesterol fraction that actually helps to clear out
14:12 some of this debris, so I'll put the term up here...
14:17 "High density lipoprotein" HDL... that many people nowadays
14:22 are seeing on their lab reports.
14:24 So this is one part of the cholesterol.
14:27 In most lab reports about this, you'll have one line
14:30 that will be the total cholesterol
14:32 I'll just abbreviate T. Chol... total cholesterol
14:36 and another line will give you the good cholesterol... the HDL
14:40 that actually helps clear out plaques.
14:42 Well, clearly one wants to lower the total cholesterol,
14:48 that's become clear... over many years, decades of study
14:53 But we want to raise the HDL as high as we can.
14:57 And one product that helps us that way is garlic.
15:01 It takes a fair bit of use.
15:03 It won't just happen overnight or even in the first week or 2.
15:08 Several months probably... Several months!
15:10 A study that I saw by Dr. Benjamin Lau,
15:15 I believe that was done at Loma Linda...
15:18 He showed that it was past 3 months before you got this
15:23 favorable change.
15:24 Now, one of the surprising things to think about
15:27 that at first when a person starts dissolving these
15:31 plaques... these deposits of cholesterol,
15:33 the first place they're going to go is into the blood.
15:37 And so if the blood cholesterol level stays a little high,
15:41 at least at first... It's not surprising
15:45 and you might be doing just what's needed... Yes.
15:47 In fact, that may be the very sign that you're looking for...
15:50 That the cholesterol is coming out of the plaques,
15:53 and, of course, has to be dealt with through the blood...
15:55 and goes back to the liver.
15:57 And you know, another thing that will raise the HDL is exercise.
16:01 I'm glad you mentioned that.
16:03 In fact, those are really the 2 big things, garlic and exercise
16:07 and perhaps exercise is the most important.
16:10 And you can get some benefit from regularity in your schedule
16:14 ...going to bed on time and getting up on time,
16:17 and also, you can get some benefit by being out in the
16:21 sunshine and I think doing purposeful labor!
16:24 I believe that when a person has that little bit of coercion
16:30 that comes from a job that needs to be done,
16:33 and not just ordinary calisthenics or things like
16:39 running or walking but some purposeful labor that
16:44 carries with it that little urgency...
16:47 Got to weed the garden today, or I've got to clear out
16:50 this area.
16:51 That helps a lot, I think, and the sense of job well done
16:56 I think that improves the HDL as well.
16:59 You know, you mentioned sunlight? Um hm.
17:03 And it's an amazing thing how
17:07 the Lord makes things work together.
17:10 Sunlight changes cholesterol deposited in the skin
17:15 into vitamin D. Yes...
17:17 Just what we need for our bones and lowers our cholesterol level
17:21 to more favorable levels.
17:24 We couldn't have been made better.
17:30 There's no improvement possible.
17:32 I'd like to speak, just a little bit, about such things as
17:37 fiber to make the LDL go down.
17:41 Do you know anything special about that?
17:45 YES! The fiber that's in food, of course, is the
17:49 part of food that is not broken down
17:53 and does not enter the bloodstream.
17:54 Instead, it stays right in the intestines.
17:56 And fiber, binds to bile salts,
18:03 and bile salts, are interconverted all the time
18:06 with cholesterol.
18:08 And when the fiber binds those, it carries them out of the body
18:12 Now if a person is not eating much fiber,
18:15 those bile salts, are reabsorbed by the intestine
18:18 and used again and helping to keep that cholesterol pool
18:22 filled high.
18:23 When you eat a lot of fiber, it takes those bile salts,
18:26 carries them out, and you don't have an easy
18:29 replenished supply of cholesterol.
18:31 So that helps...
18:32 If you simply eat a lot of fiber, that helps the
18:35 cholesterol to go out of your body,
18:38 lowers your blood cholesterol.
18:40 What about the drugs that are used to lower the cholesterol?
18:45 Is your experience a good one with those?
18:49 I have tried to stay totally with means that don't
18:55 include drugs because the diet treatment
18:57 is SO successful.
19:00 I'm just reemphasizing this point again
19:05 since we were talking about fiber...
19:08 One should say, again, What foods have fiber?
19:12 You look at every animal food, eggs, dairy, meat...
19:18 even though meat looks like it has fiber, it has nothing
19:20 that has fiber in the nutritional sense.
19:23 It has fibrous tissue... Yes which is tough but it is not
19:27 fiber... it is a protein and fiber is a carbohydrate...
19:31 Right... only in the plant foods,
19:35 animal foods have no fiber.
19:37 And when we look at the plant foods, by contrast,
19:40 as long as they're the way they came in nature,
19:42 the way the Creator made them, every plant food...
19:46 fruits, vegetables, grains, and even nuts...
19:52 the people blame for being so fatty...
19:55 In fact, all nuts have some fiber.
19:56 ALL those foods that are plant in origin have fiber.
20:00 Do the drugs to lower cholesterol have a
20:02 down side to them?
20:03 Is there anything that might be harmful
20:06 to the body from taking them?
20:08 Well, there definitely can be.
20:11 In fact, they interfere with liver functions
20:16 that are involved with producing and working with cholesterol.
20:19 So the liver actually takes a bit of a beating with the
20:24 drugs for lowering the cholesterol... Correct.
20:28 It damages the liver and makes it so that it cannot do its
20:33 functioning well.
20:34 You, I know, have had some experience with charcoal...
20:39 Yes, we've used charcoal in the treatment of
20:43 high blood cholesterol rather successfully.
20:46 I know a woman whose blood cholesterol was over 220
20:50 and she had fought really diligently to bring it down
20:55 and we had tried almost everything...
20:57 and FINALLY we encouraged her to take
21:01 a heaping tablespoonful of charcoal 4 times a day...
21:06 And within about 3 months, her cholesterol
21:08 had come down some...
21:09 So we were very encouraged and we had her
21:12 to go another 3 months and it had come down even further.
21:15 And, within about a year, or less,
21:19 maybe it was about 8 months...
21:21 she was down to about 160.
21:24 And so we were very much encouraged with that.
21:28 There's another thing that I like a lot...
21:30 in the treatment of people with any kind of heart problem
21:34 or artery problem, or for that matter, any kind of
21:37 internal organ problem and that is CoQ-10
21:41 Coenzyme Q-10 which can be purchased at any
21:45 department store, or any pharmacy like Wal-Mart, or
21:50 any other pharmacy.
21:51 You can get the CoQ-10 which is a nourishing
21:55 substance for the heart.
21:57 It's a natural substance and nourishes the heart and
22:00 makes it strong.
22:01 So, I like that also and like to work with that.
22:05 You know, there is a whole new aspect of this problem
22:13 of plugging arteries that's coming out in the last decade
22:16 or so that might be worth mentioning... Yes
22:19 And that is, it's no longer an exclusive focus on the
22:24 mechanical blocking of arteries.
22:26 There's been a lot of interest in the issue of inflammation
22:30 being involved... Oh yes
22:32 Now this is quite related to the point about
22:35 oxidized cholesterol, oxidized LDL
22:39 that apparently it's inflammation that is
22:44 part of this... the wall and the oxidized LDL take part in
22:50 inflammatory reaction.
22:51 It brings in many white blood cells which then try to consume
22:57 the bad products... the cholesterol and so on,
22:59 and become known as foam cells.
23:02 Well this whole problem of inflammation is one aspect,
23:06 then there's another one which is coagulation that happens
23:11 often and that's the final event that leads to total blockage.
23:15 Is there time to show just a little bit on the
23:19 board that way... Yes, sure.
23:21 Yes, I'm very interested in this matter of inflammation
23:25 and of coagulation because that's so important to us
23:30 The whole process would sort of fall down if that weren't
23:34 a part of the features of it ... Ah ha
23:37 I'm going to draw a lesion here in a way that makes
23:43 it a little more obvious.
23:44 You've got a mound of deposit here in the artery wall
23:52 which is our deposit of cholesterol and debris
23:55 and as that has formed, the body reacts.
24:02 We said there was inflammation there...
24:04 Wherever there's inflammation, the body tries to heal
24:07 this problem...
24:08 In fact you can say inflammation is the healing response...
24:11 And so it tries to put a covering and does succeed
24:16 in putting a covering over this.
24:20 I don't know if that is...
24:22 It sort of grows a new lining over it, doesn't it?
24:25 It does, it's a lining that really is, I think, an attempt
24:29 to reestablish the normal lining that the blood vessel has
24:33 This is very important because the endothelium, the lining
24:38 of the blood vessel, does not cause clotting.
24:40 And of course, clotting would be a disaster.
24:43 Now, something can happen for some reason,
24:48 perhaps a new inflammatory process with more LDL
24:52 In any case, you can get a break in this lining that
25:00 has reestablished and this really is a serious problem
25:04 because this tissue, the cholesterol and debris that was
25:09 there, does tend to form a clot...
25:12 And so now, we get clot-forming materials that will
25:20 deposit and clots tend to grow... we all know that
25:24 in medicine...
25:25 And this often is the final catastrophic event
25:30 that completely blocks the blood vessel.
25:32 And I have seen, in microscopic sections, cross sections of this
25:37 I've seen the foam cells in here that you mentioned
25:40 which are the inflammatory cells trying to help it and
25:43 the clot, and sort of an ulceration of this plaque
25:48 that once it has ulcerated, then you've got debris
25:53 floating around in the bloodstream which makes
25:56 more than a small problem for the blood vessels
26:00 that are downstream from it.
26:03 Well, one of the standard things for treating this
26:06 is aspirin.
26:07 Aspirin is an anticoagulant.
26:11 It does stop clots to a certain extent from forming.
26:16 On the other hand, it has a downside to it though.
26:19 And I think many people know of stomach problems
26:24 resulting from aspirin.
26:26 A way that we could be involved with it in a very simple way,
26:32 avoiding, preventing this from happening...
26:34 Even when a person already has deposits, lesions like this
26:39 in their arteries, there are some very simple,
26:42 gentle anticoagulants that could be used...
26:44 And one of those is garlic.
26:45 Garlic and also grape juice. That's right!
26:48 Five to 8 ounces of grape juice a day is a very good
26:52 anticoagulant and is better, actually, than aspirin
26:56 in some tests that I have seen reported.. Really?
26:59 It's an interesting thing also that the dentists have been
27:03 saying for a long time this... that you were saying about
27:05 the inflammation... Um hm.
27:07 Infected teeth are often a big problem to cause this
27:12 inflammatory response in the body, or anyplace
27:15 that we have some chronic infectious or inflammatory
27:19 problem going on in the body.
27:21 That can be a source of the inflammatory products
27:25 that get into the bloodstream and then make all of this
27:29 process of the foam cells, the white blood cells that
27:34 take up fat and cholesterol and then, under the microscope
27:41 we see them as big foamy cells that deposit there
27:45 in the arteries.
27:47 So, I hope that you see that there are some very
27:50 practical aspects of this thing of the heart
27:53 and you can act accordingly.