Engage

Coming Out Of Homosexuality

Three Angels Broadcasting Network

Program transcript

Participants: David Asscherick & Shanda Ban (Host), Virna & Lisa Santos

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Series Code: E

Program Code: E000006


00:20 Hello my name is David Asscherick, welcome to Engage.
00:23 I'm here at the co-host Shandra Ban.
00:25 We are going to be taking a look at the testimony
00:28 that is so powerful, so inspiring that
00:32 you will be absolutely thrilled.
00:34 We have two guests back with us that have been with us
00:37 before and we want to introduce you to them.
00:39 Virna and Lisa Santos, thank you so much for joining us.
00:43 You have been with us before and to be honest your
00:46 testimony is so powerful what God has done in your life.
00:49 It is so powerful we could have the one for 10 programs.
00:51 I think only been we would really be getting the feel the
00:55 strength and breath of your story.
00:57 When we were together last time, just to bring some of our
01:01 viewers up to speed here, you had told us you had gone
01:06 into the homosexual lifestyle, the homosexual community
01:09 and this was not just a explora- tory thing, you were in it.
01:14 You were in this thing for 20 years right? - yeah.
01:19 You even had a partner, a significant partner for seven
01:23 or eight years and a child with that partner, who of
01:26 course is to your child today, Julian.
01:28 Lisa you lived with a woman for time as well, three
01:33 years,- and so now you have come out of that lifestyle.
01:37 Hallelujah, God has done great and wonderful things.
01:40 That is what we want to talk about.
01:42 We want to really understand, there are so many things
01:45 want to talk about, but we want to understand your
01:46 testimony even more fully.
01:49 You have started the Ministry and we also want to talk
01:53 about some principles how can people like myself and
01:56 Shandra of who of course are not gay and many of our
01:59 viewers, most of them, almost all of them not.
02:01 We do believe that there are some tuning in who may have
02:04 some of the same struggles that you had.
02:06 How do we minister to people? How do we give hope to
02:08 those who might have had the same feelings and
02:11 experiences that you had?
02:12 So when we were at the last time you made the statement
02:16 that God spoken to you at the moment of conversion, that
02:20 pivotal moment of conversion.
02:22 That statement was so profound, it was straight from the
02:26 throne of God.- yes it was that conviction laid on my
02:29 heart and I felt it was God's voice.
02:31 What I heard was if Sunday is the counterfeit to
02:35 My Sabbath what then would be the counterfeit to
02:39 My creation? That is when I dropped to my knees
02:41 and I repented.
02:43 It was days hearing counterfeit, counterfeit, counterfeit.
02:46 The Lord was bringing back to my memory things
02:48 I needed to repent for and the realization was that the Lord
02:52 never left me, even throughout the wilderness
02:55 His love was there waiting.
02:58 So you repented for days you said these things just kept
03:01 coming over and over because repentance is something we so
03:03 often, oh I'm sorry for this, and just move on.
03:07 This conviction that is amazing, powerful.
03:09 I love the language there where she says that there was
03:14 this conviction, this is something God is doing.
03:18 No one was knocking on my door, and my mom was praying
03:23 for me for 20 years and she was having other people
03:26 praying for me at that time so it was the
03:30 Spirit of God moving.
03:31 So after this voice you hear, counterfeit, repentance,
03:38 you start studying to be baptized is that correct?
03:41 Yes that is when I called the Pastor and said Pastor I'd
03:44 like to be baptized. - hallelujah Amen.
03:47 However I need to meet with you.
03:49 Um Hmmm because you hadn't told anyone anything at this
03:51 point. - no one knew nothing about me.
03:53 So I felt I needed to tell the truth, he needed to know
03:58 what he was baptizing.
04:00 So you set him and his wife down and you just lay it on
04:03 the table, - I laid it all out and they were sitting
04:06 there going they were just going
04:10 They did not know this person for three months going to
04:13 their church, sitting in the back pew, bringing my little
04:15 girl, and we are not socializing with anyone.
04:19 We go to the potluck we eat, we leave and they knew
04:22 nothing, and so they sat there and they were just like
04:25 wow, wow. - what else can you say?
04:28 Yet he couldn't say anything but praise the Lord,
04:31 let's pray, that's all and he, the Pastor just accepted
04:37 me with open arms.
04:38 Praise God! Praise God!
04:40 So now Lisa you shared with us last time that you are
04:43 reading 'The Great Controversy', you are studying and you
04:45 are coming to this realization too that God is working on
04:48 your heart. How does that go?
04:50 I just felt like the Holy Spirit was calling me, drawing
04:53 me back to truth that were reawakening.
04:59 Just truth and faith, reading more of The Great Controversy
05:07 not only the state of the dead but just reading all these
05:10 chapters and it was just like wow, things were coming
05:14 back to me and I felt a softening in my heart.
05:18 I was writing a letter to my brother, so sorry if
05:22 I was ever rude to you.
05:23 Wow, so this conviction was coming over you as well?
05:26 Yes, yes - probably right around the same time as mine?
05:30 Same time and when I fly to her to see my Doctor to stay
05:35 with her for a few days we were sharing our faith and it was
05:38 cute because two little girls re-discovering...
05:45 You would come to me and Hover over me in the middle of the
05:47 night, like four o'clock in the morning, Virna we got to
05:50 get up the Lord told me to read the last four chapters
05:52 of The Great Controversy again.
05:54 I'm like okay lets go and I wanted to sleep.
05:58 But she would wake me up and be hovering over me and
06:00 I was just what!
06:02 She goes to you know there was an earthquake?
06:04 Jesus is coming really soon. And I'm like okay let's
06:08 pray and were talking and saying God is laying on my
06:13 heart all my sins like from when I stole a pen when
06:15 I was 10 years old.
06:17 Oh wow. - it was just amazing.
06:20 God is moving -God is definitely moving and we felt
06:23 like sponges and want to absorb everything and just
06:26 pulling out all the literature that I actually had
06:29 throughout the 20 years. Sitting in my closet and
06:32 my Bible, every thing came out of the closet.
06:35 She spread it on the coffee table and was like where do
06:38 I begin. - I'm so overwhelmed where do I start?
06:42 So you start studying with your Pastor to become baptized
06:47 and Lisa at this point is not quite there yet, and not
06:51 quite wanting to be baptized right?
06:54 But she asked me - I asked her and told her Lisa it's
06:58 not like you're taking my thunder, it is not about that.
07:01 Why don't we just get baptized together?
07:04 I wasn't really thinking about that but it really gave
07:10 me something to think about.
07:12 From there I was reading in The Desire of Ages baptism.
07:18 It just talked about the death, burial, and resurrection
07:23 of Jesus and it really touched my heart.
07:27 I'm like if I do not do this I may never do this.
07:31 I had no reason not to do this.
07:33 - there was an urgency. - there was an urgency.
07:35 So she surprised me, we are Church that morning at my
07:40 baptism and she, - and what date was that?
07:42 That was January 31, 2009. - of course.
07:47 - about 10:45 a.m.,
07:49 no it was right after Sabbath school.
07:52 She comes to me and says I decided to get baptized and
07:54 I just embraced her it was like praise the Lord,
07:57 of course she did not know that I had the Pastor,
07:59 Pastor Jerry Agora I had told him the night before to
08:03 please pray for Lisa so she will get baptized.
08:05 And your mom is here to witness your baptism? - yes.
08:09 She didn't know that Lisa was going to get baptized at all.
08:11 I just have to say I love just dates, she's amazing,
08:15 she is just amazing, praise God, this is so exciting keep going.
08:21 So actually let me ask you a question Virna, at this point
08:23 you are fully convinced in your heart that Jesus has got
08:27 the victory over your homosexuality, but you are still
08:30 friends with the people in the gay community and tell us
08:33 about how you invited them to come?
08:35 Oh I invited every single one of them.
08:38 I invited all my friends, invited all my relatives,
08:42 I invited my ex-partner and her wife and my daughter
08:47 and all these people, when that day came
08:50 only one person showed up.
08:54 And that was my ex-partner, my daughter's birth mother.
08:58 Right, - wow - how powerful.
09:01 That was really powerful and I was like okay Lord there
09:04 is a purpose in this and so we were sitting in the pews
09:08 and Pastor Agora was up there let's have our two candidates
09:14 came up and my mom takes a look at me and I am looking
09:18 at my mom and I stand up and Lisa is on the other side
09:21 of my mom.
09:22 - she doesn't even know at this point and asking who
09:24 is the other candidate? She's looking at me and
09:26 I'm just crying sitting there listening to this person
09:28 saying you lift me up by Josh Grogan and I'm in tears.
09:32 - someone was singing. - yes they were singing and
09:34 I was just ahh and my mom was thinking are you okay,
09:38 who's the other candidate in I'm like
09:40 I can't tell you it's a surprise.
09:43 He calls for you to stand up. I stand up and looked
09:49 over at Lisa to stand up and my mom just takes this
09:53 wild look to her left, like and she is seeing Lisa
09:58 stands up and my mom just breaks down.
10:00 My ex-partner sitting next to my mom and my ex-partner
10:04 is the one comforting my mom.
10:06 They go, all of them, all three of them my mom,
10:10 my ex-partner, and my daughter go behind the baptistery
10:13 and watch us get buried and come back out of the water.
10:17 Now Lisa you mentioned that there was something very
10:21 significant about the way you felt during your baptism?
10:23 I know the water is not magical but when I was dunked
10:28 underneath and came back up I really felt like my old self
10:35 died, like I left it in the water and we were just like a
10:41 breath of fresh air and we were talking right after and
10:45 Virna said wow do you feel like, yeah.
10:49 We can't really describe it, it just felt so, I don't know
10:57 I couldn't find a word and even unto this day we can't
10:59 find the words and it is such a miraculous experience to
11:02 go through that death, burial and resurrection of Christ
11:05 that we can actually experience it through baptism by
11:09 immersion. - during this whole time I was praying
11:11 Lord give me evidence that this is real this time.
11:15 But this is You this time, this is not me just going
11:18 through the motions and covering something up,
11:19 that this is really real.
11:22 So downstairs during potluck I see my mom and the Pastor
11:27 engaging in this conversation.
11:29 My mom is holding the Pastor's hand, - and how does she
11:32 say it? She says I know you, I met you 10 years ago at
11:38 a Filipino convocation.
11:39 - know how to she say it? - we want to hear how she
11:42 would say it. - how she would say it?
11:44 Oh the accent. You know I know you, I've met you before
11:50 I wrote on a note about my daughter, she wasn't going to
11:59 church anymore. The Pastor's face was like looking at her
12:05 and he was remembering. I'm watching this conversation
12:08 and she is like that was Virna I was talking to you about.
12:13 So I looked up to the Lord, thank you.
12:16 - 10 years before your mom was praying.
12:19 My mom and I Pastor had met and mom had spoken of me to
12:21 him and he brought me to.
12:23 - God's providence is amazing isn't it?
12:25 This is the very time that she is asking for evidence
12:28 and this is happening right in front of her,
12:30 Oh hallelujah.
12:33 God answers prayers before we even ask. - Amen.
12:37 So after your baptism experience you feel called in to
12:41 ministry, but you are not sure.
12:42 How do you go about doing ministry?
12:45 Right, the whole time we were constantly in prayer.
12:49 For months I think we have some ideas of a ministry but
12:53 we just didn't materialize anything we had planned.
12:57 I think we were talking about website at one point.
13:03 We were like how do we get this done, all we just don't
13:08 have information or anything.
13:10 Like we were really excited at that point, we wanted to
13:12 go somewhere with this so we decided to go to ARISE and
13:15 we went through three week cross training program
13:18 last summer of 2009.
13:20 Thing coming out of that I became a Bible worker,
13:23 Lisa focused on her health and you went to?
13:25 I went to Weimer, - right.
13:27 Weimer is a health college in California.
13:29 Their New Start program in which I got off some really
13:33 dangerous drugs. - because you were diagnosed with lupus
13:36 several years before as we mentioned in the last episode.
13:39 I think that chronic stress really affected my body,
13:43 otherwise we have a disconnect between our head in our physical
13:46 being, our blood remembers but we forget.
13:52 So I went to Weimer and it was blessing to go through that
13:57 because I really experience the Lord in a very personal
14:00 way there, had an encounter there with Him.
14:03 Felt His tenderness, His love just Lisa I am with you.
14:09 I'm going to walk you through this.
14:10 And Virna you were given an opportunity to share this
14:13 testimony at the Central California Camp meeting,
14:16 a 10 day event where all the Seventh-day Adventists in
14:19 central California come together and there are meetings
14:21 and you are able to share your testimony in the youth
14:24 department, is that correct?
14:25 Yes, that was just this past summer and after I had just
14:30 finished sharing my testimony a young boy, about 16 years
14:34 old came up to me and said he was gay and he did not want
14:38 to be and he was just praying the night before that he
14:42 needed to hear someone talk about this issue.
14:45 We are ministering to him now and he has proclaimed
14:48 victory by God's grace and he wants to go into the
14:52 ministerial work and we keep in touch on a weekly basis.
14:55 We talked and we pray together all the time and shortly
14:59 after that when we came home from camp meeting we were
15:02 contacted by two other individuals.
15:04 Someone who is attending PUC, - Pacific Union College in
15:08 California, yeah - yeah a college in California.
15:12 So there is about three to four souls that
15:14 we are supporting and directing them to Jesus.
15:18 So this is even lead to further, you see that God is
15:21 placing these people in your path and instructing,
15:23 it is evident saying you are on the right track,
15:26 thank you for following Me I'm going to show you that
15:29 I have people in your life that
15:30 you can be an influence on.
15:31 Now you actually have had the opportunity to start
15:33 a ministry where you tell us about that ministry?
15:36 Well our ministry just really unfolded in just the last
15:39 few weeks and our ministry is By Beholding His Love and
15:44 the goals of our ministry is to minister to those who
15:46 want to overcome and want to have a closer relationship
15:51 with Jesus and we believe that everyone should be
15:54 entitled to experience their own walk with the Lord.
15:58 To experience the love of Christ for themselves hence part
16:02 of our ministry is helping the church, giving the church
16:06 resources, and how we respond to people
16:09 who do want to overcome.
16:11 There is a lot of shame and guilt around a lifestyle
16:15 like this and any sin.
16:18 Homosexuality is not a crowning sin, sin is sin,
16:25 we get the same results, we are separated from our Lord.
16:29 The wages of sin is death and we are separated from God.
16:32 God longs to be with us regardless of what we have done.
16:36 His love is there an His love is what changes.
16:44 Well maybe we can talk little bit about some of that
16:46 ministry, there are so many things that you have said here
16:48 that would be, that we can spend a great amount of time on.
16:52 Two things actually that jumped out at me, I don't know
16:55 if you saw the irony of this, I don't know if anybody
16:56 else saw the irony in this but you were saying all
16:58 my literature it was in the closet and all of
17:02 my literature and my Bible was coming out of the closet.
17:05 That is the language, that is the language that is often
17:08 used when someone is transition- ing out of the Heterosexual
17:12 community, they are coming out of the closet and did
17:15 you see the irony in that?
17:17 Yeah, I missed it.
17:22 We use the same language now, we are encouraging people to
17:25 come out and talk about it, there is nothing to be ashamed
17:29 about the Gospel of Christ.
17:31 - well there in Revelation Chapter 18, come out of her
17:33 My people, of course that is out of spiritual Babylon but
17:36 spiritual Babylon is all error.
17:38 God is calling, and the thing I love it is not just about
17:41 what God is calling us out of, but it is what He is
17:44 calling us into.
17:46 And what He is calling us into is a relationship with
17:48 Jesus. - His love.
17:50 I saw that irony and I had to bring that up, and here's
17:53 the other thing you were talking about when you were
17:57 baptized, you said the water is not magical and we know
18:01 that, we are not big on the sacraments we believe what
18:04 the Bible says that baptism is an outward sign of an
18:08 inward reality, but the language you are using,
18:11 I have just got to remind us of this.
18:13 It is straight out of Romans six, listen to what he says.
18:17 "What shall we say then, shall we continue in sin that
18:21 "grace may abound, certainly not. How shall we who died
18:24 "to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that
18:27 "as many of us that were baptized into Christ Jesus were
18:30 "baptized into His death, therefore we were buried.
18:33 "You were crucified with him for he who was died has been
18:37 "freed from sin now if we died with Christ we believe
18:40 "we shall also live with Him."
18:41 I mean 6,7,8, times in these few verses in the beginning
18:44 of Romans six he is saying you died at your baptism,
18:47 you died at your baptism, you died at your baptism and
18:49 here I'm going to go out on a limb, when you are having
18:52 that experience Lisa were you aware of this particular
18:55 passage, in other words were you like this is a Romans 6
18:58 experience? Or are you just having the experience?
19:00 NO! I was having that experience. -that is so awesome.
19:03 That is such a confirmation of the text of Scripture.
19:07 We sometimes talk about how, oh we don't want our
19:10 experience to drive our relationship but the reality is
19:13 that our experience forms our relationship with Jesus.
19:16 Here you are having this experience that is totally
19:19 consistent with Scripture, I mean it is the language of
19:22 Scripture and like you said it's incommunicable.
19:25 You are trying, how do you communicate the person I was
19:29 there and now this is the person I am and of course it
19:32 is a process but that moment.
19:34 To me it just so ministered to my soul Lisa when you are
19:38 used in that very language, I was thinking ahh this is
19:41 Romans 6, this is Romans 6, this is Romans 6.
19:43 That carries onto Galatians 2:22 because it's living in
19:49 Christ, - that's right I'm crucified with Christ.
19:52 If not I that live but Christ lives within me.
19:55 So one of the things I loved about your testimony to be
20:01 honest, and I love everything about it.
20:02 One of the things that's so ministers to me is that you
20:06 are not just saying I think Jesus as my Savior.
20:08 We have excepted Jesus as our Savior, and now we want
20:13 others, you have the mission, you have not just the
20:17 Christ but the mission of the Christ. Go please!
20:21 We were really convicted, the title of our ministry
20:25 I'm praising God because He came up with that title
20:29 because we are, or I am experiencing beholding Jesus
20:34 every day in this walk, in this Christian walk.
20:37 And by beholding Him it's like I do not want to live
20:42 a life contrary to what He is.
20:46 He is a love and by beholding that you just want to
20:51 please God and commit to what He is asking of you.
20:56 That is just giving Him your heart and serving Him.
21:01 And that is my commitment to Him, like when I lived
21:05 contrary to him all those years, I commit myself in
21:10 service to helping others.
21:12 Now that transition - go ahead please.
21:14 This was the burden in our mission when we wanted to do
21:17 this ministry and reach out to others, we were like
21:20 we do not want to get stuck in the politics of it and all
21:22 the red tape, which just help people know about God's
21:25 love and the love of Christ. - fire in your bones.
21:28 There was this urgency and we felt the magnitude of how
21:33 we lived in the wilderness we need to far exceed that
21:37 magnitude for the glory of God.
21:39 I love that language, the wilderness that is exactly
21:42 what it was, it was a wilderness experience.
21:44 When you use that language the grounds in Scripture
21:47 because the Israelites in the wilderness, Jesus in the
21:50 wilderness, there are many instances of people going
21:53 into the wilderness and then coming
21:55 out of that wilderness experience.
21:57 For you coming out of the wilderness experience is coming
21:59 out of the homosexual lifestyle, and that transition,
22:02 I mean when you are in there for 20 years that just
22:05 doesn't happen like that.
22:07 Maybe very briefly, how have some of your friends,
22:12 your whole social circle as well, how has that
22:16 been a tough transition?
22:18 Yes it has and it has been scary because I love my friends
22:22 and I would hate for them to experience any kind of hate
22:25 or violence because that is not how Christ works.
22:29 - right.- when I had to come out to them and tell
22:33 them why was now in Christ, I told them immediately I am
22:39 no longer gay, I don't identify gay anymore, I believe it
22:43 is biblical and believe that God doesn't want me to be gay
22:47 but that does not make me any better than you.
22:51 Christ died for everyone, but if you feel I am no longer a
22:57 person you would consider a friend, I would respect that.
23:03 So the response I got from them was amazing.
23:08 - it was positive. - it was positive they were like
23:10 all right we still love you, we will work it out.
23:15 One of your friends said your conversion was like finding
23:19 the love of your life.
23:20 - Yeah. I had a friend hold my hand and said I'm so happy
23:23 for you, it's like if you found a love of your life.
23:27 - isn't that so true, that is that experience with Christ
23:29 that is finding that love and that is like you said
23:33 why you've chosen to have your ministry called
23:35 By Beholding His Love.
23:37 Amen and that just blew me away because I was like
23:38 that is what she sees, wow, that ministered to me again.
23:44 I find the Lord ministering to me,
23:46 to us through our friends.
23:49 So this thing you thought was going to be a very
23:52 difficult thing actually ended up being a blessing,
23:56 a witnessing opportunity. - Amen yes.
23:59 I just want to say to our viewers, I hope you heard that
24:04 language, I mean this is someone who was in the gay
24:07 lifestyle, in the gay community and she went back to her
24:12 friends and said I no longer identify as homosexual, I no
24:17 longer identify as gay. I mean the courage and that must
24:22 have been one of the most difficult things
24:24 you have ever did?
24:25 That is when I felt my flesh just full of fear,
24:28 but I was like Lord put words in my mouth and let
24:31 them see You not me.
24:33 So Virna and Lisa can you share with us then and with our
24:37 viewers how can we, we what are some of the practical tips
24:41 you said you were trying to get resources for the church,
24:44 what can I do, what can David do, what do you do to
24:48 minister to the people in the homosexual community?
24:52 Well I think first and foremost you want them to feel safe
24:57 and also be okay that Jesus can meet them where they are,
25:01 because that is how He meets us, where we are. - always.
25:07 Always and just love them to Jesus and then from there
25:13 Jesus will take them and lead them and I feel in my heart
25:17 to be specific in my ministry is to help people who are
25:22 fearful, or homophobic inside, just closeted that
25:27 they can ask should come out with the truth because on
25:31 some level the truth shall set you free.
25:34 I just feel like if they come out and just reach out
25:38 for help and support.
25:40 It is creating that safe space, it is creating a place
25:43 where they can come to someone and talk about this.
25:47 And again it's changing our thinking what is a crowning
25:52 sin, there is no greater sin, they are all sin and so
25:56 we have stated that before.
25:58 Just to show them the love of Christ, just love them,
26:01 pray with them and pray for them.
26:03 Let them know you are praying for them, it's powerful,
26:08 prayer is powerful.
26:09 The truth of the matter is that even though many in the
26:13 Christian community would look with a certain kind of a
26:17 addictional repulsion of the homosexual, sin is sin.
26:20 If there is a sin above any other that God hates it is
26:24 the sin of pride and the reality is that homosexuals
26:28 are people too, I'm looking at you.
26:29 I can walk over like Thomas and I can poke you,
26:32 you are a person. Lisa you are a person
26:34 and sinners are people.
26:37 God has delivered you and you have a passion,
26:41 we just have to read this verse in the forefront.
26:44 1 Corinthians 6 and Paul says there in verse 9,
26:48 "do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the
26:51 "kingdom of God. Do not be deceived neither fornicators,
26:54 "nor adulterers, idolaters, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
26:57 "nor thieves, nor drunkenness, nor revilers, nor
27:00 "extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." And here
27:05 we go verse 11, "and such were some of you, but you were
27:09 "washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the
27:13 "name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."
27:17 And I want to say such you were, it is not who you are.
27:22 Because you are new creatures in Christ Jesus.
27:25 Amen, 2 Corinthians 5:17, "old things have passed away."
27:30 There's hope, there is a lot of hope for anyone.
27:33 Oh, you have given me hope, I mean God is alive and
27:37 we knew that before we can on the program but He is just
27:41 so alive and I am encouraged right now.
27:42 I mean overcoming anything, what ever that may be.
27:45 Virna, Lisa thank you so much for joining us and I want
27:49 to say to our viewers you too can be a new creature in
27:52 Christ Jesus, send us an e- mail and get a hold of us at
27:56 Engage@3ABN.org or checks out on face book at Engage.
27:59 Thank you for joining us.


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Revised 2014-12-17