Participants: David Asscherick & Shanda Ban (Host), Virna & Lisa Santos
Series Code: E
Program Code: E000005
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00:20 Paul says in 2 Corinthians 3:18, "but we all with unveiled
00:25 "face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord are 00:29 "being transformed into the same image from glory to glory 00:33 "just as by the Spirit of the Lord." 00:36 My name is Shandra Ban and today on Engage my co-host 00:39 David Asscherick and I are talking to two sisters whose 00:42 testimony is exactly what this verse is talking about, 00:45 being transformed by God's glory. 00:47 David why don't you introduce our guests for today? 00:50 Thank you so much Shandra and it's great to be here. 00:53 Our guests today are Virna and Lisa Santos, did I say 00:58 that right? - yes! - Santos or Sontos? - which ever. 01:03 One said one and one said the other. 01:04 So Virna and Lisa Santos and we are thrilled that you are 01:08 with us, Shandra has read 2 Corinthians 3:18 and in many 01:12 ways your, well in all ways really your story is a modern 01:17 embodiment of this passage. 01:19 And we are great to have you back on another program 01:21 where we're going to talk about your ministry, 01:23 which is really built around the text. 01:25 But before we get to that we want to talk about your 01:27 story, and it is an amazing one. 01:29 Now I got the three-hour version last night, so let's go 01:34 for the slightly shorter version today, but it is 01:36 something our viewers need to hear. 01:39 It is one of the most profound and inspiring 01:42 transformative stories that I have ever heard in years. 01:45 So we are going to kind of start from the beginning 01:47 if that is okay? - yeah. 01:48 Now Virna you are the oldest one, still young but the 01:52 older one and so you want to start with you. 01:55 Where are you from? Where were you born? 01:57 Where did you grow up? 01:58 I was born in the Philippines, we came here to the 02:01 United States when I was about 2 and 1/2 and basically grew 02:05 up in San Diego, California. 02:07 - So you are a Southern California girl? 02:08 Yes I am. - okay so you are born in the Philippines 02:11 and came here when you are very young. 02:13 Lisa you are four or five years younger? 02:16 Five. - 5 years younger so you were born in the states? 02:19 Yes I was. - you're just an American girl? 02:21 - I'm an American girl. 02:23 So it is a little bit like my wife. 02:24 She is Romanian but she came to the states when 02:27 she was so young I call her a Ro-American. 02:29 She's Romanian by a culture but she is an American. 02:33 Um - no offense. - no offense when we were growing up 02:37 I speak Tagalog and Lisa always thought it was Spanish. 02:41 I would tell my parents to stop speaking Spanish to me. 02:46 And they're speaking Tagalog they're speaking Tagalog yes. 02:49 Do you speak Tagalog now? No I understand it. 02:51 You understand it but you think it's Spanish. - yeah. 02:56 So you move to Southern California, talk to me about 03:01 the religious influence in your home. 03:03 Was there any sort of religion? 03:05 Well when we moved here to the United States we went 03:09 to a Roman Catholic Church and started going 03:11 there every Sunday, 03:13 my father is Uglypion in the Philippines and that is 03:16 equivalent Episcopalian, we didn't know that at the time. 03:19 So we just went to the Roman Catholic Church and did the 03:23 CD thing, first Communion thing, we did all that and 03:26 were actively attending every Sunday. 03:29 So you are raised in a Roman Catholic home basically. 03:32 - yes. Okay that is up and to a certain point and 03:36 at some point you all end up on your individual, everybody 03:40 in your family is on these individual spiritual journeys? 03:42 Right, exactly, my mom was doing her own searching, 03:47 healing from a lot of things. 03:49 My dad got caught up with Nostradamus and Armstrong and 03:54 learned about the Sabbath through that and wanted to 03:56 find a church that kept the Sabbath. 03:58 At the same time my mom was invited by her sister-in-law 04:02 to the Seventh-day Adventist church in Chula Vista. 04:05 It's a little suburb of San Diego. 04:07 So mom is doing her thing, dad is looking into the 04:11 Nostradamus thing you said? 04:12 Yeah he was into the prophecy, he got into the prophecy 04:15 stuff through Nostradamus. 04:17 Which led him to the Armstrong Church of God which led 04:21 him to the Sabbath. - exactly! 04:23 So dad is sort of in the Sabbath thing, mom has been 04:26 invited to a Seventh-day Adventist church. 04:28 We all attend and it was a strange thing because there 04:32 was no genuflecting, in no kneeling down, no holy water, 04:36 no one made the sign of the cross, no priest. 04:38 And everyone had their Bibles - everyone had Bibles. 04:42 - Everyone was carrying these books, what are these books? 04:44 Right, you got it exactly. 04:45 So you walk into a Seventh-day Adventist church, it's 04:49 a change. - it's a change and actually I look at it 04:52 as a breath of fresh air. 04:53 - hmmm, really. - yep really that different experience 04:59 - it wasn't different, different or different weird 05:02 it was different good. - it was different good. 05:04 - Wow we praise the Lord. 05:06 So we are now at a Seventh-day Adventist church, we're 05:11 now how old? I'm about 17,18. - I'm 13. 05:16 Okay so you are all in your middle teens. 05:18 Right and we all got baptized December 14. 05:21 Everybody, the whole family, the whole family. 05:23 Now I don't think we have mentioned this yet, but 05:25 you have a brother that is between the two of you? 05:26 yes. But is not obviously here today, 05:28 there he is these invisible. 05:30 So you have a brother that between the two of you, 05:32 and the whole family the two sisters, brother, mom, 05:34 and dad baptized. Hallelujah! 05:37 It was the first for that Pastor to baptize us, to 05:40 baptize a whole family together, you know the date. 05:44 December 14, 1985. - just like that? - yep. 05:48 Do you know all dates just like that? Some mostly. 05:50 Yes I remember last night when you were telling me 05:52 your testimony, you just knew these dates it was amazing. 05:55 So December 14, 1985 your whole family is baptized and 06:00 you are now Seventh-day Adventist and of course 06:04 a Seventh-day Adventist church that is actually involved 06:06 in education and Virna you make your way to a Seventh-day 06:09 Adventist University. - yes, at the time it was 06:12 Loma Linda University La Sierra campus and I went there 06:15 for a year, and in the year after that I signed up 06:19 to be a student missionary in Hilo Hawaii. 06:22 A student missionary in Hawaii? You know I have give 06:25 you a little bit of a hard time about that. 06:27 I've got this friend named Justin Denon and he will go to 06:31 Mexico, he'll go to Belize, or he will go somewhere and 06:35 we used to joke with him because he would come back and 06:37 say you know brothers somebody's got to reach these people. 06:39 He would be a likely combing, somebody's got to reach 06:42 these people and I think it's me. 06:44 Here's just that kind of a thing, I mean somebody has 06:46 to go to Hawaii. 06:47 - I've got to go do it. - it may as well be you. 06:49 Yeah exactly. - so you are student missionary in 06:51 Hawaii, now I'm not complaining there's people in a 06:52 Hawaii that need the Lord as well of course. 06:54 So you're off, you did the year at La Sierra, 06:57 a positive experience? - yes it was. 06:59 Okay now you're off to Hawaii student missionary and that 07:03 would put you in high school. - I'm in high school. 07:05 How is that transition, your teenager and now you are 07:09 weird, you're an Adventist, you go to church on Saturday. 07:13 I think it was more of a challenge to have this new faith 07:18 and my friends knew that I did convert and they had 07:24 questions about you can't do things on Friday night how come? 07:28 That's weird, I was never able to go to football games 07:33 or participate in some normal activities on Friday 07:37 night.- so were you resent- ful about this? 07:40 Or did you have a relationship with Jesus and it was okay? 07:42 I had a real baby relationship with Jesus and he was just 07:50 starting out and it was a challenge, I did know how to 07:54 bring it to the Lord to help me out with that. 07:58 But it was a struggle. - it's all so fresh and 08:00 you are a teenager. - being a teenager tough anyway. 08:04 You want to have fun with your friends and do what 08:08 everyone else is doing. - so I got it. 08:11 So now we are on the verge of something big here. 08:14 Virna now when you are away in Hawaii as a student 08:20 missionary, you are now coming to grips with something 08:24 that you had experienced when you were younger but now 08:28 what's really coming to the forefront. 08:30 I'm going to have Shandra walk us through this, 08:33 talk to us about that, what was that? 08:35 Yeah I can actually say that while even at La Sierra 08:40 being in a girls dorm, it didn't help. 08:44 I felt like it was bubbling up to the surface 08:48 more and more and was getting harder and harder 08:51 to suppress and it was an attraction to girls. 08:57 I remember feeling that attraction ever since 09:00 I was really young. - so is that one reason why 09:02 you left the university to go as a missionary? 09:05 I felt it was something I needed to do to keep myself 09:09 busy. To do something that looks godly. 09:13 Hide behind being a Path Finder leader, our Sabbath school 09:17 teacher, a teacher at a Seventh-day Adventist 09:20 elementary school for grades three to six. 09:23 You know I just kept myself busy that way in trying to, 09:27 but all the while I was staying in my fantasies. 09:30 I was feeling safe there. 09:32 So you're trying to balance this Christian lifestyle 09:35 with these predominant feelings that are coming up 09:37 and trying to rise? 09:39 Exactly, it felt like war inside, 09:41 that's what it felt like. 09:42 Now did you share this with anyone? - no, not even my 09:46 sister. - not even your sister? - not even my sister. 09:49 So unbeknownst to you Lisa how are you feeling at this 09:51 time? Basically the same way. 09:55 I was still going to church and also at a very young age 10:00 I felt attracted to same-sex and a church it was very 10:06 hard because I was hiding who I was, who I thought I was. 10:10 I also lived in a fantasy world and had crushes on my 10:16 sister in Christ and felt so weird about that, 10:19 and didn't know how to reach out for help or support. 10:26 I just didn't know how to do that, just so fearful. 10:29 - you did know where to turn? - right. 10:31 So Virna you finish up your student missionary and where 10:36 you like to go after? I couldn't go back to La Sierra 10:39 because the tuition had gone up and my cal grants and funding 10:43 didn't change so I went back home to San Diego 10:45 to a community College there 10:47 and took up surgical nursing program there. 10:50 And you met someone there? Yes I did and we engaged in 10:58 a very secretive relationship. - and no one knew? 11:02 And no one knew, with another woman that is. - right. 11:08 And you kept this on for how long? 11:11 - for about two years. From the time we started 11:16 school together, we work together, we went to school 11:19 together and for two years. 11:22 So eventually you did end up starting to tell people and 11:25 became more in the open about it. How did that happen? 11:28 Well that relationship didn't work. 11:31 She went on to get married in the Philippines to a man 11:36 and I pursued the lifestyle here in San Francisco. 11:41 Okay so you moved from San Diego to San Francisco because, 11:44 because as we know San Francisco has a large homosexual 11:49 community, so you thought this is where I could go to be 11:51 in the open. - to be out in free I wanted that. 11:54 So did you take your family at this point? - no. 11:57 Lisa did you guys suspect anything? - yeah we did. 12:03 I think we were actually talking to my mom and my 12:07 brother if she ever came out how would you feel? 12:10 I think at that point my mom was having struggles about 12:13 that. - Mama is still in the church? - Mama is still 12:16 in the church. - and at this point your dad - is not. 12:20 So you're in San Francisco year now and living out this 12:25 life and you meet someone else? 12:27 Yes I met someone we know was living in San Francisco 12:31 and while I was out and proud in the community I was very 12:34 active during that time, I became a counselor for domestic 12:38 violence victims in the gay community and I also worked 12:41 for a Filipino organization in the AIDS and HIV sector. 12:46 Was violence a big problem in the gay community then? 12:49 Yes it is, we are not immune to that, no one is immune to 12:54 violence. - so you meet this woman and you start 12:58 a relationship with her? 13:00 Yes we are together for about eight years in the last 13:04 year of our relationship we had a child together by 13:06 artificial insemination and our daughter is now going 13:11 to be nine next month. 13:13 Our relationship deteriorated when our daughter was 13:18 eight-month-old we separated. 13:22 I can't, it's just so heavy and I'm sure there's 13:27 probably people who have never met them how the one who 13:31 had a daughter with the same sex relationship, wow. 13:35 Yeah it was a beautiful experience because we had our 13:39 daughter at home and she was the apple of my eye. 13:44 Even to this day, we are co-parenting as best as 13:49 we can right now. 13:50 So I do want to stop this, this is great but we need to 13:55 find out where Lisa is because last time we left you, 13:57 you were still in high school, so what is happening to 13:59 you while this is going on with your Virna? 14:02 There was inward fears just homophobia actually 14:07 being afraid of this and not being able to know how 14:13 to deal with this. 14:15 It was very painful. - because you are wondering why me? 14:19 Why do I feel this way? - exactly and I think I really 14:23 tormented myself from all the fear and 14:25 it just grew into depression. 14:27 To fast forward a little bit I was with my parents and just 14:32 feeling so frustrated. - so you started looking for an 14:36 outlet. - yes an outlet. 14:38 So I went online, as many people do and that led me to 14:43 meet someone and that relationship started to grow. 14:48 We started chatting and it grew into phone calls every 14:52 night and I thought I was falling in love with this woman. 14:59 I decided to move for this woman. 15:03 Me and my sister just packed up my car, my little Honda 15:09 Civic and got us a little trailer and attached it and were 15:13 on the highway going to Florida. 15:16 At this point Virna you knew now that Lisa was also gay? 15:21 Yes, I already knew by that time. 15:23 Have you told your family yet? No! My mom already knew 15:31 about me, but for Lisa not yet. 15:34 One of the concerns was when she came out to me I was like 15:37 you didn't tell Mama yet, did you? 15:39 I knew where she was coming from for that. 15:43 I said no I didn't. You didn't want your mom think you 15:47 were influencing your sister. - exactly right. 15:50 You are already getting flack from her. 15:52 Okay so you moved to Florida, you move in with this woman 15:55 and how long do you live with her? - for three years. 15:58 There was really some tender moments, but for the most 16:04 part I knew in the back of my mind this was not right. 16:08 The conviction was just so heavy on me, and I knew my 16:13 life was not going right. 16:17 I didn't have enough money to survive, I was always 16:20 calling home I need some money can you send some money? 16:23 I was financially hard up and the relationship wasn't 16:29 going as I wanted it to be. 16:31 I thought this ideal relationship, this is what I 16:37 wanted and it just didn't turn 16:39 out to be that. So then you move back home? - so I moved back 16:43 home and I get sick and it is 16:53 lupus. Okay so you're diagnosed with lupus. 16:56 I've diagnosed with lupus and going through such 17:00 a painful struggle with that. 17:01 Now you said some last night when we were talking, 17:03 you said that your brother said something to you about 17:07 being diagnosed with lupus? 17:08 Yes I was in the hospital and my white blood cells was 17:11 like 1.1 and I'm basically on the bed wondering if 17:17 I'm going to die? I am laying there in tears. 17:20 Maybe not verbally praying or formally praying as people 17:25 think what praying is, but I'm talking to God and just 17:28 wondering what is going on? Why is this happening to me? 17:33 Is it because the Florida? 17:34 The next day my brother comes in and I am in isolation 17:38 because my immune system is very vulnerable right now. 17:41 So he comes in and I know that he is meaning well and 17:46 he cares in his own way. 17:48 He just asked me, you know why this is happening don't 17:51 you? I'm like no please tell me why? 17:55 I want some answers you know. 17:57 He goes well you haven't told mom about you being gay. 18:03 It hit me, I think it hit me and I got upset because 18:09 I wanted the support from my family. 18:13 And out of his concern because of this lie I was keeping 18:18 he was pleading with me, you need to tell her. 18:23 So Virna, you have a baby and your relationship falls 18:30 apart with your partner and you start to feel some more 18:35 changes coming on in your life. 18:36 David why don't you talk to them about that? 18:38 Yeah so what ended up happening was I live on my own, 18:42 me and my ex-partner worked things out in regards to our 18:46 daughter and I get my own apartment and I engage in 18:50 another relationship yet with another woman. 18:52 That was a really bad relationship, it was abusive on 18:57 all levels, emotionally and physically. 19:00 I ended up becoming homeless in 2005. 19:03 I lost my job and was homeless and sleeping in my car 19:07 in front of a 24 hour Starbuck coffeehouse. 19:10 Yeah and I recall one day just, it was raining and it was 19:17 cold and I was in my car and I was crying and I guess 19:21 I was praying like Lord help me. 19:23 Soon enough in around November of 2005 I find a great job. 19:30 I get an apartment. I stabilize the life for me and 19:34 my daughter and so that went really well. 19:41 I stopped dating and stopped engaging or looking for 19:46 a relationship, I just focused on me and my daughter 19:49 and my friends and hanging out and doing that scene. 19:53 You know I am just sitting here, I don't think ever been 19:57 quiet for so long, I'm just sitting here marveling at the 20:01 goodness of God, the grace of God because I know where 20:05 this is going of course. 20:06 Our viewers can see where it is going but 20:08 you were in this, I mean both of you were so 20:12 you were in the bottom of this thing, you were in the thick 20:15 of it is what I am saying. 20:16 I mean you have a daughter with a same-sex partner, and 20:22 Lisa you have moved to Florida from California that is 20:24 quite a transition, you're moving in. 20:26 But now there is the rumblings, something is about ready 20:30 to happen and this is not something that has been going on 20:32 for two years, were 14th, 15, 16 years into this thing. 20:37 Yeah for me it was 20 years. - so 20 years in this 20:41 thing. - yeah. - and now something is happening. 20:44 I found myself around November of 2008, it was a very 20:49 political year, a very heavy year and I was carrying 20:52 a lot of heavy stuff and was in the bathroom cleaning, 20:56 just to clarify. 20:58 So this is where you are at last night so we have to hear 21:01 this part, so you were in the bathroom we have 21:03 to clarify that, you're cleaning. 21:05 And all of a sudden it was almost flash card style, 21:11 images of the sanctuary comes to me. Remembering 21:16 - the sanctuary of scripture? The Holy sanctuary. 21:18 specifically the Day of atonement. 21:20 The activities that would happen in the sanctuary. 21:22 The offerings and everything. 21:25 Now I have to stop you there for a second. 21:26 Where is this coming from? - I don't know I was scared. 21:34 - It wasn't like you are going to church. - no. 21:36 In other words you would say this is out of the blue? 21:39 Out of the blue come my Bible was in the closet for 20 21:41 years, I wasn't reading it. 21:43 You're in the bathroom cleaning and flash card pictures 21:47 of the sanctuary? What was that last image of? 21:50 The last image was of Jesus on the cross and it just zoomed 21:54 in on His face and it was an awful picture to see. 21:57 But it took my breath away and I was talking in there 22:01 and Lisa saw me from the living room. 22:03 - I think I heard her gasp and I was are you okay in 22:07 there? I was worried for a little bit. 22:10 - because you are like talking to yourself. 22:11 Yeah I basically was and so all I remember after that 22:15 is that I started to have this craving to go back to 22:17 church and wanted my daughter to learn about Jesus, 22:20 so we start going to church. 22:21 So you see this picture of Jesus, sanctuary, 22:25 Day of atonement, this is all coming. 22:27 This is 20 years ago you were a Sabbath School teacher 22:30 and now it is just coming to you? - yeah. - this craving 22:34 of wanting to get back to church. - right. 22:36 Right that time I felt like it was okay to be gay, 22:41 it's was okay to be who I am and I don't need to change. 22:44 It's okay to learn about Jesus and to love Jesus and to 22:47 teach Julian about that. - Julian being your daughter? 22:50 Julian being my daughter yes. 22:51 So you're not thinking I'm not getting out of the gay 22:55 community, know this is happening very incrementally. 22:58 Yes. - Jesus has got a hold of your heart. 23:01 "I if I be lifted up from the earth will draw all men 23:04 "unto myself." You are having that experience of being 23:06 drawn. - Amen. It doesn't just happen it's not all of 23:11 a sudden for any of us, it's not like you just jumped in 23:13 and now you are a super saint, it's incremental isn't it? 23:17 God meets us right where we are, and He met you in the 23:19 bathroom cleaning. - yes He did, basically. 23:22 He met me in a cold room in Laramie Wyoming went out was 23:26 crying my eyes out, I mean He meets us in different 23:28 places. And He met you in a bathroom cleaning and you 23:30 say I have got to go to church. 23:32 I have to teach my daughter about Jesus. 23:34 You are not thinking now, I remember when I was getting 23:37 converted I was thinking I will be just a Christian punk rocker. 23:39 And your thinking well I'll just be a Christian gay person. 23:43 - right, exactly. - you didn't know you would be 23:46 sitting here speaking to thousands and tens of thousands 23:49 or more about it. So now what is happening? 23:53 What's happening is we are going to church and it is now 23:56 about January 2009 and I go to communion. 23:59 That's where I surrendered to the Lord and said okay all 24:03 of this is on You. 24:04 I'll partake of the Communion service. - because you 24:07 were feeling guilty, how can it partake of this holy. 24:11 I felt it would be blasphemous for me to participate 24:14 because of who I was, smoking. 24:17 - you were smoking two packs a day. 24:19 Smoking two packs a day for 20 years and I enjoyed it, 24:22 it wasn't like I was addicted to it, it was something 24:24 I really enjoyed. - you liked it? - yeah. 24:26 The Spirit of God in that communion service said to you 24:29 something like take the leap or something. 24:32 The Pastor suddenly spoke and pointed his finger 24:34 and I felt it was pointed at me. 24:35 He said take a leap of faith and watch what God will do. 24:40 Not you, God will do it. - at this point you are even 24:44 going to church and coming out and going in you have 24:48 not told the Pastor Hey I'm gay, and this is my daughter. 24:51 You are just in and out, in and out. 24:54 But this is a moment for you, a pivotal moment for you. 24:57 Very, I partake in the Communion and later on that evening 25:00 when I took my last cigarette for the evening 25:05 I had a sudden sharp pain in my throat and felt very 25:09 nauseous in my stomach. 25:11 The next morning I go to 7/11 to buy some more and 25:14 I found myself just sitting there in the car and the 25:17 nauseous feelings coming back and I said I don't 25:19 want to have nothing to do with this. 25:21 I can't smoke anymore, I don't want to do this. 25:23 You walked away from it? I drove away and all remember 25:26 saying was Lord help me and I have not smoked since. 25:30 No withdrawals, no headaches, no nothing and I just praise 25:33 the Lord. I was there the day that she called my mom 25:35 when she told my mom on the phone and our mouths were just 25:42 like - she stopped smoking and you can't believe it. 25:44 I was praising the Lord because I really didn't like that 25:47 habit and I was like wow. 25:49 My mom was flabbergasted and at that time she was asking 25:54 us questions about our faith again and was like getting 25:58 me, she was interesting to me. - well here we go, 26:01 here we go. I'm staying with my dad were watching 26:05 something on 2012 and I'm like you know what? 26:08 I think Great Controversy has something to say about this. 26:11 The book 'The Great Controversy' by Ellen White. 26:13 Yeah by Ellen White and I'm going to go and read this. 26:17 So the first chapter I read is kind of weird, it was 26:20 really random the state of the dead and at this point 26:25 maybe a couple months before this all happened, we were 26:29 watching a lot of shows on supernatural phenomenon. 26:34 - you know it seemed random, it was exactly what, 26:39 a scratch where you were itching. - it was convicting. 26:42 It was very convicting and very strong. 26:44 Now I've got to say this, we're going to have you back 26:47 for second program obviously it got to because there is 26:52 so much here, but for this program, and for our viewers 26:56 you have turn your lives over to Jesus. - yes. 27:00 But I have to tell you something David, the Lord 27:03 really laid on my heart the heaviest conviction that 27:09 really changed my life and that was if Sunday is 27:14 a counterfeit to my Sabbath what would be the counterfeit 27:18 to my creation? - now you heard the Lord say this? 27:22 I heard Him say this to me. 27:24 If Sunday is a counterfeit to my Sabbath then what would 27:27 be the counterfeit to my creation? 27:28 In your heart of hearts you knew exactly what that meant? 27:31 Exactly, I fell to my knees immediately and repented. 27:35 We could say safely that that is the change, that is the 27:39 pivotal moment where you are leaving the old lifestyle 27:43 behind and you are a new creature in Christ Jesus. 27:46 We are going to unpack that statement, we are going to 27:49 come back to that and we are so looking forward to having 27:52 you back for an ex-program. 27:54 Check us out at Engage and 3ABN.org. 27:57 Send us an e-mail or search for us on Face Book 27:59 thank you so much for joining us today. |
Revised 2014-12-17