Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Wayne Blakely
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR00093A
00:11 Welcome to Celebrating Life In Recovery,
00:13 I'm Cheri your host.
00:14 Wayne are we going to talk about homosexuality today?
00:17 Um, that's what I hear. - Oh man, you have to join us.
00:51 Hello, you know what this program is amazing to me.
00:53 I say that with every program because we have some
00:56 incredible guests, but before we get into the program
00:59 I want to tell you a couple weeks ago I was at church
01:02 and my Pastor who is Randy Maxwell, an incredible Pastor,
01:06 but my Pastor was doing a whole series on the life of
01:10 Christ, the life of Jesus.
01:12 And it was brilliant, if you want to go online, go online
01:17 find it, it was just brilliant.
01:19 The last day I was sitting there and he wraps it up and
01:22 I'm in awe of how he wrapped it up.
01:27 Then all of a sudden Bruce Marciano walks in and I don't
01:30 know if anybody knows him but he played Jesus in a film called
01:34 The Gospel According to Matthew.
01:36 It's my favorite film on Jesus, and he walks in and I'm
01:39 like oh stop, and I know his whole story.
01:42 I know that his whole recovery, or his spiritual recovery
01:48 anyway happened during the making of that movie when
01:50 he was playing the life of Christ.
01:52 He really learned and understood who God was.
01:55 There were times that he just wept and wept and couldn't
01:58 even do the scene because the Holy Spirit just showed him
02:02 exactly what Jesus went through during that time.
02:04 But there was one scene in that movie that got to me, and he
02:09 did stuff that was so real in that scene.
02:12 Some of the stuff that he did was there was a point where
02:15 he heals this guy that has leprosy.
02:17 The guy is just riddled with leprosy in parts of his body
02:22 has deteriorated, or been cut off because lepers can't
02:26 feel well and the skin is flaky.
02:29 You could tell his nose, he had half a nose and all that
02:33 stuff in this leper was walking by and he looked up and
02:37 he is covered with these rags because lepers were kicked
02:41 out of the community and weren't allowed to be around anybody.
02:44 So he just has rags on, and he puts the rag over his face
02:49 and kneels down and he says to Jesus, I know that if You
02:53 wanted to You could make me clean, You could make me well.
02:57 In the film, Jesus turns around and tears up and He says,
03:02 I do want to, be clean.
03:05 All of a sudden, in that moment, the guy is totally healed and
03:10 the skin is like baby skin.
03:12 In the Gospel according to Matthew, they go word for word
03:15 by the Bible, they don't add anything, or take
03:18 anything away, so word for word by the Bible.
03:20 So when he turns around to Jesus, and he is totally clean,
03:25 he jumps up and screams and starts crying, then he starts
03:30 laughing, and then runs to Jesus and leaps on Him.
03:34 They both fall on the ground and busting up, just laughing,
03:37 just holding each other.
03:39 I thought, you know what, I bet that is how it happened.
03:41 I bet it just didn't happen where he was cleaned and
03:44 healed and said no thank you so much and walked away.
03:47 Of course he was thrilled, of course it was this
03:50 incredible thing, so the movie really got to me.
03:54 There was one scene where Jesus is talking about the
03:59 Beatitudes and that stuff and He's talking, He talks about the
04:03 speck in your brothers eye, you know?
04:05 While he is talking, he sees a log laying there and he
04:10 picks up the log and he tries to hold it in front of his
04:14 face, in His own eye.
04:16 It says it is like you were trying to get a speck out of
04:19 your brothers eye when you have this log in yours.
04:22 He tries to hold it and it kinds of tilting back and forth and
04:25 telling his brother come over here so I can get the
04:28 speck out of your eye, but he has this huge log in his eye,
04:31 well everybody starts laughing.
04:33 I thought that is probably how it happened too, that it
04:37 was that Jesus used what was around Him to make the
04:40 illustrations about whatever He was making at the time.
04:44 In that particular illustration he said we tend to look at
04:48 people, we look at what you're doing wrong, or what you're
04:52 doing wrong, or what kind of sins you have in your life.
04:55 I'm not even paying attention to log that I am carrying
04:59 around in comparison to the one you have got.
05:03 Remember that on this particular program you are going to
05:06 want to bring up some judgments, as some of you have
05:09 strong opinions about what we are going to talk about
05:11 today, well I'm going to beg you, be careful because we are
05:15 all walking around with this huge log and trying to get
05:19 specks out of other people's eyes.
05:21 So on that note, Wayne I want to thank you for coming
05:25 on the program. - absolutely.
05:27 You know what I am saying? - I do.
05:29 So when I talk about that kind of thing, first of all
05:33 have you ever felt judged? - I have, yes definitely.
05:37 From the beginning, from the very beginning.
05:42 From the time you walked into the church or from the time you?
05:45 - from the time I was born.
05:47 Okay, so I want to even go there because I want by the
05:51 end of this program, I want to know you.
05:53 Do you know what I mean? - absolutely.
05:56 I can't know you like God knows you, but I want the audience,
05:58 the people in the café, I want everyone
06:01 to know you and your struggle, and your walk, and what
06:03 broke your heart, and what filled you with joy.
06:05 Because you are somewhat like this leper that says, I know
06:10 that if You wanted to, You can make me clean.
06:15 Yes, when you were speaking about that I thought that is
06:17 exactly who I identify with prior to being born.
06:24 My natural mother walked with me during that pregnancy
06:29 and during those particular times they didn't have the
06:34 sonography and all that they have today.
06:36 So she didn't know which gender would be born.
06:39 But people that knew her and were around her, she would
06:46 continually say to them, I'm having a baby girl.
06:49 They would say, oh really how do you know that?
06:51 She says, I don't know I'm just having a baby girl.
06:54 - you just feel it. - yes I know it and I'm not going to have
06:56 a baby boy because I only want a baby girl.
06:59 Therefore she had it planted in her mind throughout the
07:03 entire pregnancy that was the intent and that is what
07:06 would happen, it was almost like she could have forced
07:09 the gender by her thinking.
07:11 Then as soon as I was born she rejected me immediately
07:17 because I wasn't that little precious baby girl she had
07:22 hoped for. - and I think that only in heaven are we
07:27 going to understand that even as a fetus, even as an
07:32 infant we can feel that rejection.
07:35 We can feel when we are not wanted or loved, we know it.
07:39 - yeah. - somebody says an infant doesn't know
07:41 anything, I don't buy that.
07:43 Well the first two to three years, the most impressionable
07:46 years, so they pick up while they are not communicating
07:49 verbally, they are taking in all the senses that are
07:53 around them so they know innately know what is going on
07:55 from a mother and whether the love is there or it is not.
07:58 - Amen! so what happened?
08:01 There was little she could do about the fact,
08:02 she couldn't give it back and so she tried to make do.
08:08 She had, I have a sister who was or is a year older than me and
08:14 so she was living on an Air Force Base at the time.
08:18 My natural father was gone pretty much all of the time.
08:22 - because he was in the service? - in the Air Force.
08:26 He had a career in the Air Force.
08:28 Neighbors begin to indicate to him that they thought
08:33 perhaps I wasn't being treated with the best of care.
08:37 He thought they were nosy neighbors and didn't give it
08:41 as much consideration as maybe he should have at the time,
08:45 but he came home from one of his assignments one
08:51 time and noticed that my arm, my left arm was in a bandage
08:56 and a sling and he thought it might be a big indicator,
09:01 my natural mother said I had bursitis.
09:04 He took it as a signal that it probably wasn't bursitis
09:09 in a little young infant.
09:11 So he had his relatives, his sisters in California,
09:16 Southern California that said they would go ahead and
09:21 take me and watch over me for awhile.
09:24 I was eventually adopted by an aunt and uncle who are
09:30 now my parents. My dad was an x-ray technician at the
09:34 time that they took me, they took me and had my arm
09:38 x- rayed and it was broken in two places. - wow!
09:42 So the rejection was immediate and then the rejection
09:47 that ensued, or the reaction to that abuse and to the
09:53 rejection of my mother began to shape my life.
09:57 Right, and you know when you talk about that, your dad
10:00 even though in his heart, was trying to do the right thing
10:03 by sending you to an aunt and uncle and you have the
10:05 rejection by your father.
10:07 You know what I mean, because he is still not around.
10:11 Right, right. Yeah I don't know that I really thought
10:14 of that too much at the time.
10:16 He did visit throughout the years and we stayed in close
10:22 contact so I don't, I think what probably affected me
10:27 the most was the rejection of my natural mother.
10:30 But at a young age I began to act out, by the time I was two
10:35 and three years old I was running around the house with
10:40 scarves and whatever I could find and say, yelling and
10:43 screaming, I don't want to be a boy, I want to be a girl.
10:47 - if you were a girl everything would have been okay?
10:51 Well it would have been perfect I guess.
10:52 Yeah, in my mind I guess because it had been drummed in, it had
10:58 been drummed in prenatally and I believe postnatally
11:02 no one really knows exactly what all took place in the
11:06 time my mother was alone with me.
11:09 But I am sure she must have pretended that I was that
11:15 baby girl, so it was a big indication that this is some
11:21 thing I see as when you talk about what brings about
11:25 homosexuality, I think homosexuality can come from
11:30 so many different sources.
11:33 It can come from the early stages of prenatal influence.
11:38 It can come from postnatal experiences.
11:40 It is not something that somebody just walks into and
11:45 chooses. - right, so to me what is really tough is that
11:49 on a topic that I know it will be tough like this, I want to
11:52 tell the viewer I don't care where you are at on this
11:55 particular point, I want them to fall in love with the heart
11:59 of this child, if you know what I mean?
12:02 Let's let everything fallout the way it is going to fall
12:06 out, but first fall in love with this child.
12:08 So you are running around trying to be that, scarves and
12:13 probably have fantasies that I am a little girl and all
12:18 that stuff and would imagine now your parents,
12:21 your adoptive parents are trying to fix that.
12:25 They can't fix that. - no, they couldn't.
12:28 I mean everyone was a little stunned because it wasn't
12:33 something that you normally saw.
12:35 So not having the desires for little toy cars and soldiers
12:42 and cowboys and Indians and trucks, things were a bit
12:45 concerning to them, and when they put those things in
12:49 front of me and tried to get me to interact with them
12:53 I would still go back and I wanted a doll for Christmas.
12:58 I had interest in creative things, in color and in design.
13:03 They would keep trying to realign me to some form of
13:08 masculinity. - here's a G.I. Joe, come on.
13:10 Like what's up with you. - some transformers come on.
13:13 Go hit somebody.- Thankfully they prayed to God before they
13:18 adopted me and felt impressed by God to take me in
13:22 and keep me as their child.
13:23 But little did they know what laid ahead of them and
13:26 I certainly didn't know what laid ahead of me.
13:28 But by the time I began to attend school these traits
13:36 just continued to grow.
13:38 From the first day of school until the last I didn't want
13:42 to be there because the harassment, the teasing,
13:46 the bullying, bullying is not a good thing.
13:50 Talk about bullying, because there has been in the news
13:53 even bullying to the point of people being murdered
13:55 and killed and definitely suicidal and suiciding, so you
14:00 got all that stuff because we can be horrendously cruel
14:04 to each other and if anything is out of the norm we have
14:08 talked on other programs about out of the norm people
14:11 kind of gather around and it is almost like pack animals
14:15 sometimes with how we treat one another.
14:18 You experienced that in school. - I did.
14:21 I would come home from school sometimes because of the
14:25 teasing and harassment and I would go into the bathroom
14:28 and I would close the door and I would stand in front of
14:33 the mirror and I would punch my face and say, God why did
14:37 You, why did You make me a boy when I'm supposed to be
14:41 a girl, and there was nothing I could do about it.
14:47 I can't even imagine having to be in that much pain.
14:52 That I just want to, I just want to hurt myself.
14:56 I do not want to be this.
14:59 And then to have to come out of the bathroom.
15:02 If you know what I mean, you have to open the door and
15:04 come out. - right. - I have to wash my face.
15:07 Yeah, and go back to school another day.
15:11 I learned, I only learned this a couple years ago but
15:15 there was a kid that was getting beat up on the way
15:19 home from school who the people that beat him up thought
15:25 they were beating me up. - Wow!
15:28 So I can only imagine the pain that, that inflicted on
15:33 that individual that was perfectly normal, or what was
15:37 considered to be normal. - yeah, yeah.
15:40 Because you know there is no normal today. - right.
15:44 That is, to me, the saddest thing is that I work with people
15:48 all the time, and you are struggling with this one thing.
15:52 All the way across the board we struggle with different
15:56 things, but for some reason society picks certain sins,
16:01 or certain lifestyles, or certain leanings as that is
16:05 unacceptable and you had one that was in a lot of
16:10 communities unacceptable and which then puts it in the
16:13 shadow so you have to try and pretend you are not that.
16:17 You have to pretend that I don't have these struggles about
16:21 wanting to be a girl and all that stuff I can't say out
16:24 loud to anybody because they freak out or get abusive.
16:29 So then I step into my teen years and what does that look
16:34 like, because at one point did you ever get to the point
16:38 where I just accept this, I just accept this is who I am
16:42 and I don't care about what you feel anymore?
16:45 Did you ever get to that point of rebellion or anger?
16:50 I did, on the way there I had what I currently see as
16:55 probably has happened to a number of heterosexual men.
17:01 There is in those early teen years, there is what may be
17:06 considered a natural sexual exploration with one another
17:11 that they never speak of to this day.
17:13 They cork that and never let that surface, but to me
17:17 when that happened I saw that as acceptance.
17:21 Let's talk about that because people don't talk about
17:24 that. Like when I going to high schools and colleges
17:28 people will mention that to me is that a lot of times,
17:30 especially nowadays, but it has always kind of been that
17:34 way is that you will have girls experimenting with girls
17:37 or boys experimenting with boys, and it is not every
17:39 single child, but it is enough. - Yes!
17:42 Nobody ever, it is just experimentation or whatever is
17:47 in people's minds and what I know is that there is a writer
17:53 in my church, Ellen White that is incredible.
17:56 She has incredible gifts, but she said at one point that
17:59 as we come to Christ that all our generational sin's,
18:03 cultivated sins which are things we act out with and continue
18:07 to act out with and find desires for and now wants for.
18:11 We seek after all of those things with our recovery,
18:14 and with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, or the gift of
18:17 the Holy Spirit, gets dealt with.
18:20 But you are talking about in school, at that same-sex
18:24 experimentation is now being cultivated.
18:26 People don't talk about that. - no!
18:28 The reason I want to break here is because I want to say,
18:31 I want to look at the camera and say, if you are there
18:34 and you have always felt guilty or a shame about that
18:37 take that to God, He knows exactly what we are dealing
18:40 with, He knows exactly what we play around with as kids.
18:45 I was five years old the first time a same-sex situation
18:49 happened with me and I can't tell you how years and years
18:52 and years I thought I wonder if I am all that kind of
18:56 stuff. God says you know what? Bring that to Me.
18:58 Don't let your own mind or the devil himself play with
19:02 that, let Me have those things.
19:04 So now you are in high school and playing around with
19:08 all that stuff and finding, again reinforcing the fact
19:12 that I should've been a girl.
19:15 Yes I was, when I had that mutual sexual experience with
19:23 other guys I began to think that I was normal.
19:27 I thought oh finally I have been accepted, it was an
19:32 affirmation that all guys must do this and go through this
19:36 and then this went on for a year or, maybe two.
19:41 Then these guys began to say, well they weren't really
19:45 interested in this anymore, or that they were interested
19:50 in girls and I thought okay I'm a little late.
19:53 You know I kept waiting for that to click and to kick in.
19:58 But it didn't go away, I still wanted the love and the
20:03 masculinity and the comfort that there seemed to be when
20:07 I was around another guy as opposed to a woman.
20:11 When I was in my high school years, or long before then
20:18 I should say that I already recognized in God's word that
20:24 something wasn't adding up.
20:26 Because your family was Christians, so they had,
20:30 so you're family was Adventist and were going to church and
20:34 you were in the Word of God? - absolutely.
20:35 So you are saying, man? Yeah to go back a little bit.
20:41 When I was a kid and I was being recognized that these
20:45 traits were taking place, these feminine traits and
20:48 whatnot, my parents began to look to the church.
20:52 They began to look to Christian psychology, something that
20:57 could give them a clue as to what was going on and
21:00 what to do about it. - Right!
21:01 A little while they were more active trying to figure out
21:06 maybe more silently than, and I was also silently trying to
21:10 figure out with God what happened.
21:13 Because if I'm going according to Your word here I am starting
21:18 to shape up and beginning to look more like a homosexual.
21:21 From what I read in the Your word,
21:23 that is not an accepted practice.
21:25 So let me just say, and I don't want to offend anyone,
21:30 especially you Wayne, because I am considering you a friend and
21:35 we are starting to get to know each other and that stuff.
21:38 But during, I've never had a Christian hold up a sign and
21:43 say God hates fags, if you know what I mean?
21:45 Or God hates drug addicts or whatever, but you see signs
21:50 and anger and all kinds of stuff with the very thing that
21:55 is happening in your life you are seeing
21:56 Christians really raging about.
22:00 With my addictions, with drugs, with homelessness,
22:03 with molestation or whatever people don't hold up signs
22:06 with those and so not only are you dealing with your own
22:10 stuff, not only are you getting bullied at school and that
22:14 kind of thing but if you in fact are going in this direction you
22:18 have really no where to get support? - that is right.
22:21 Yeah that is right. - I can't imagine what that was like
22:24 and when did you realize the anger and the rage that some
22:27 even people of God have?
22:30 Well, you know in the church for me adults behaved
22:36 differently then the youth, and the way the adults
22:42 behaved where with a bit of silence and standoffishness'
22:48 and some whispering and a discomfort from being around you
22:53 It was like they knew something I didn't know.
22:56 But they weren't sharing it with me.
22:59 - they just knew you are not acceptable. - different.
23:02 What is really interesting is that because nobody is
23:07 speaking it is not acceptable and to me I can't, that
23:11 rejection again, like the rejection with your mom.
23:15 You know what I mean it is just painful - very painful.
23:18 I wish that somehow, there is no way to explain to
23:22 somebody what that pain looks like, or feels like.
23:26 I wish there was, I wish there was some way that somebody
23:30 could look on the outward side and see your pain.
23:34 Especially during those years because I know it was
23:37 significant. - yeah I think I was well into my 20s
23:41 before I recognized one day, I said I don't think I'm not
23:47 crying every day and prior to that every day had at lease
23:53 by the time I went to bed I was hugging my pillow or
23:57 burying my head. - or hitting yourself in the face.
24:02 Yeah that too. - wow, so did you ever at one point
24:08 just say I am done? I'm done with all this?
24:11 I did, I began to go to work after I graduated from
24:19 high school and was out on my own.
24:22 I wanted to go and explore because I knew that something
24:26 was missing in my life and I wanted to find some joy and
24:31 some happiness and I was working at Loma Linda University.
24:36 There was an orderly that worked on the unit with me, and
24:41 he was just a wildcat, he was just funny, he was crazy.
24:46 He had my attention all the time, and he said you need to
24:51 talk to my roommate Glenn.
24:53 So he got Glenn on the phone and I spoke with him on the
24:57 phone for a while and he seemed like a really nice guy.
25:01 He says oh you are just gay, you are gay.
25:04 I said I am what? And he said, you are gay.
25:06 I said what, I don't know what you mean by that,
25:09 what is that? Because at that particular time the word
25:13 had just barely surfaced.
25:15 I went to meet them at their apartment and developed
25:21 a friendship with him and he introduced me to
25:24 my first gay bar. - so then the lifestyle opens up.
25:28 - right. He walked me into a bar and I said all these men
25:32 in here are gay? And he said yeah they are.
25:36 I said Oh man, I cannot believe it,
25:38 I thought it was in heaven.
25:39 I mean I thought it was - I finally fit - no judgments.
25:43 Everyone was happy, everyone was laughing and they wanted
25:47 to get to know you, they had no judgment on you whatsoever.
25:52 So let's break some stereotypes right now because what
25:56 someone will say is they all just wanted sex.
25:59 Do you know what I mean? - yeah I do.
26:01 Because we look at our whole orientations and we just take
26:06 it down to an act, but your heart longed not so much,
26:10 not saying sex wasn't a part of anything but your heart
26:13 longed to be accepted and to be loved and to laugh and
26:16 not have all that pressure.
26:18 Yeah, well I finally, the Devil is very clever about how he
26:23 introduces deception and he knew what I was looking for.
26:29 He know I was looking for warmth, care and for love.
26:34 If he could provide that even in a simulated way, whether
26:38 or not it was genuine, he is in.
26:41 So I did, I began to find men and engage in sexual act's
26:48 but more than that it was the warmth of being hugged.
26:55 When you where lying naked next to someone the total body
27:00 warmth that you had up against that person - that you didn't
27:05 even have from a mother. - right.
27:07 I have just say that to a lot of people that will just
27:10 be offended by that imagery, you didn't even have
27:12 that by a mother, you didn't even have that in
27:15 any part of your life.
27:16 So sometimes we want to push away from those kinds of
27:21 realities, but the reality is for a lot of us is that
27:25 we will, we will sell our soul to the devil almost to
27:29 feel loved, to feel warm.
27:32 What you are saying is that I was so starved that,
27:37 that moment was worth everything that I had to go
27:41 through to get to that moment. - yes.
27:43 Again if anybody picked up that plank, be careful right
27:48 now, just be careful because God is crazy about you Wayne.
27:54 Thank you, I know. - okay go ahead.
27:57 That was the introduction to the cycle of finding relief
28:04 and some kind of, as a casting off of a huge burdens that
28:10 laid upon me in knowing that you were loved and accepted.
28:16 So that for some people, not all people, but significantly
28:22 in the gay community it begins a cycle of sexual
28:26 addiction. - okay so now we are going to stop on that.
28:29 We are going to take a break and come back and not only
28:32 talk about, a little bit about what that cycle is about,
28:37 but I want to hear what your journey back to God like,
28:41 and that is incredible to me.
28:43 Because the judgments we have on each other can take us
28:46 down, but God never condemns, He says, you know what?
28:50 I promise you, if you trust Me, all the pain you have
28:54 carried on your life, all the rejection, all be confusion
28:57 about all this kind of stuff, I have known you since you
29:01 were in the womb and I adore you, I adore you.
29:04 We will be right back, stay with us.