Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Sandra Santos, Virna Santos
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR00092B
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00:15 Welcome back, so on the first half we were talking with
00:17 Virna and talking about her journey. 00:19 In her journey started from when she was a little girl 00:22 early molest, not really trusting her own body definitely 00:27 had some issues with men as far as the safe thing, 00:31 started fantasies about women and jumped into a same-sex 00:35 lifestyle and relationships. 00:37 When I say jumped in, for people that miss that first 00:41 half, she jumped in, she was an advocate, she was working 00:45 in an AIDS center, she was working in San Francisco and 00:48 was in the gay parades. 00:49 I don't think that you would have wanted to run into her 00:54 and said something dumb, because she would have got you. 00:58 What was really incredible God even with that much 01:03 anger, with that much junk, I love the fact that as He 01:07 was bringing her to a place where she could see His heart 01:11 towards her is that it was so gentle and so good. 01:15 He just wooed her back into a place where 01:18 she could start to heal. 01:20 Somebody says heal from what? They'll think heal from the 01:23 same-sex stuff, if you say that you didn't hear her story. 01:27 This was a molested kid that stopped feeling comfortable in 01:31 her own skin, that didn't even know who she was and started to 01:34 identify with some of the sexual issues, but that wasn't 01:38 her pain or her damage. 01:40 Her damage started really early with the molest and the 01:44 anger and with not feeling that her parents protected her. 01:47 We talked at one point in the series where sometimes the devil 01:52 strategically hits us with all these different things, 01:55 she got hit with a lot of things. 01:57 Sexuality wasn't the only one and God knew that. 02:01 I love the fact that her families here because we have 02:05 the privilege right now of meeting Virna's mom. 02:08 Sandra I just wanted to say thank you so much for 02:10 being on the program. 02:12 - thank you for having us too, its a privilege. 02:13 As Virna is talking about all this acting out, all this 02:20 pain, all this anger what did you see? 02:23 How did you experience it? 02:25 It was tough, even listening to my daughter a while ago 02:30 it was tough. - it's tough to hear it all. 02:32 It's tough to hear, I can relate to her pain. 02:35 - because even from early on, you didn't know she was 02:40 molested for a while? 02:41 Well this is what happened, I was a little Catholic girl 02:45 in the Philippines and when I see Jesus on the cross 02:48 I had questioned why did You have to die that way? 02:51 So I've had that question all my life. 02:54 Then we arrived in America and I was pregnant with my 02:58 middle child, and my half brother lost his job and 03:06 I took him in and one day I found him, I found him doing 03:13 it to my daughter and I had a visitor. 03:17 I could not scream but I was hitting him, lashing out on 03:27 him and he was grinning at me. - Wow! 03:32 I had to take my focus off him and take care of 03:37 my child and clean her up. 03:39 I could not tell my husband. - why? 03:47 Because when we first arrived in America I didn't know 03:51 anyone, we didn't have any relatives. 03:54 I didn't know what job I should get, I was thinking if I 04:02 tell my husband that he would kill him and my husband 04:04 would be behind bars. 04:06 I don't know what I would do. - right. 04:10 I said I'm just going to protect my child from him, 04:15 so I pretended nothing happened and every time we'd have 04:22 to go for groceries I remember my husband would tell me 04:24 just leave them to my brother. I said no and he started 04:30 wondering because I was acting strange. 04:33 Where at one point you would have left them without 04:36 thinking about it because it was your brother and 04:38 it was safe there, now never. 04:41 That was before the incident, but after the incident 04:43 I tried all my power not to leave them to my brother. 04:49 And to make a story short we moved out from the 04:53 apartment and we bought a house. 04:54 And it happened again, and I thought to me that was the 05:04 first time I found, not I found my daughter like Virna 05:14 was in the restroom when she was screaming and 05:18 my brother had just left looking for a job. 05:22 Maybe because I was being overprotective or embarrassed, 05:28 ashamed, I just thought that was the second time. 05:34 You didn't think it was something that was happening 05:38 over and over again? - yes, when Virna told you awhile 05:40 ago that from four years old to six years old it didn't 05:46 dawn on me it was that long. 05:48 So even hearing it now just breaks you, it breaks your 05:55 heart, let me say one thing and I know this is true. 05:58 I know this is true for Virna because I was that kid, 06:02 is God that heals us. -yes I believe, I believe that. 06:08 that. - I'm sorry, I'm sorry that you, I'm sorry for 06:13 your pain. - but this is what I did because I know even 06:17 though I was Catholic, I had not found the faith yet or 06:22 the Bible, God was there for me too. God is always there for us. 06:28 So you were, for what you said is that I was new and I 06:34 didn't know the language and I was so afraid and I knew 06:37 that my family would be broken up and all those things. 06:40 Because people ask all the time why didn't you do anything? 06:43 I know that Virna said that throughout her story here, 06:47 is that I was so angry at my mom for not protecting me 06:50 because all she knew as a little girl is 06:54 that you knew and yet he was still in our home. 06:57 This is what I did, I made a decision that day that my 07:04 daughter was complaining about her body. 07:08 I called my husband from work and said to have come home, 07:13 come home now because something happened. 07:17 After that I called the police. - good for you, 07:21 it must've been the hardest call. - it is. 07:24 A policewoman came, it was a policewoman and she was 07:31 upset with me when she found out that I should have 07:36 reported it the first time, and guilt, really heavy guilt. 07:42 - I bet you had tremendous guilt over the years. 07:44 That I didn't do that for my daughter. 07:47 Has she forgiven you? - yes I know she has. 07:56 But maybe I haven't forgiven myself, even though I know 08:01 God has forgiven me. 08:04 Can we pray about that right now? - yes. 08:07 Dear Father, in Jesus name we have gone through so many 08:13 things in this life and we have so many things we are 08:16 ashamed of and we are angry at ourselves and haven't 08:19 forgiven our self for, but Sandra this pain is overwhelming 08:24 to her this news she heard is overwhelming to her. 08:27 There is people all over the world that have these kind 08:31 of burdens that they carry and You have never meant us to 08:34 carry this shame and this burden. 08:35 You have never meant us even to know this kind of injury 08:38 with our families, our children, our little boys and 08:42 little girls and I just pray Father you hold Sandra's 08:45 heart and let her know she is forgiven, definitely forgiven by 08:49 You. Forgiven by her daughter, she is forgiven by 08:53 everyone and teach her how to forgive herself, 08:56 to surrender that to You. 08:57 Do not let the devil hold her in bondage in this area ever again 09:01 and I pray for the Holy Spirit, I pray You will fill her 09:04 with the Holy Spirit and let her know that she is beyond 09:08 loved and that You have taken the burden of the sin upon 09:12 Yourself and that she is free and I claim that in the 09:16 name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and for 09:18 anybody watching this program that has this sadness and 09:23 has this kind of bondage I pray Father to let them 09:26 know right now that they are free. - Amen - that they 09:30 have the right to forgive themselves in Jesus name, Amen. 09:33 Thank you for that prayer, thank you. - you're welcome. 09:38 So you call the police and they arrested him. 09:42 I called the police after I was investigated by the 09:44 policewoman, he was not a round so I told them, we live in 09:52 San Diego, and I said right now he's in downtown San Diego 09:56 looking for a job. Right away all the police were doing 10:00 surveillance on him and so after maybe like an hour or so 10:05 what they decided was to come back to my property and 10:10 waited for him to get off the bus. 10:13 As soon as he got off of the bus they surrounded him and 10:17 they put handcuffs on him. 10:19 That brother of mine, we grew up in a home with mom 10:24 and grandma, we had lost our father. 10:26 My half brother I never treated him as half because 10:31 we all grew up in the same home, not like other siblings 10:35 when they grow up in different homes, 10:38 we all grew up in one home. 10:39 He was very close to me and he is my husband's favorite 10:45 brother-in-law and I did not know also that he had issues. 10:51 I found out later on that he was also molested. 10:56 And usually that is the way it goes. - yes, he was 10:59 adopted for a while from my mother to an American family. 11:05 He came to America before me. 11:07 So when they were putting handcuffs on him he was just 11:12 screaming and saying he didn't do it, he didn't do it. 11:17 - he was innocent? - yeah, he's denying. 11:21 - he knew what he done - oh yes because I caught him. 11:30 So as Virna starts growing up and she's angry, she is 11:37 distancing herself from you, what did you do as her mom? 11:45 What kinds of things did you do? 11:46 Well I went through some abusive behavior from Virna. 11:52 So what I could not take it anymore I did something again 11:58 that made her more angry at me. 12:02 One day my husband and son and youngest daughter were 12:07 watching television and Virna was just at me 12:10 - the screaming - yeah and then I went out to the 12:17 living room and I told her siblings what had taken 12:23 place in their sister's life, because I was like 12:26 screaming inside of me, why are you just watching 12:30 me being abused by this child? You do not know the 12:35 pain I'm going through? 12:37 She hated me for that, for letting her brother and 12:40 sister know, but they were like teenagers at that time. 12:44 Do you know why your sister is acting this way to me, and 12:49 all along the disrespectfulness and misbehaving and all 12:54 the hardships and abuse I went through, I told myself it 12:59 was because of what she went through. 13:01 When I shared with my husband or some close friends, 13:05 some of them would be in denial and say no that is not 13:10 the reason that's her choice, but to me I knew it is 13:15 because of what she went through. 13:17 My daughter was seduced for three years by a teacher in her 13:22 school, in a Christian school and she started acting out 13:25 and everyone kept saying that it was her and I knew that 13:28 she went through three years of being groomed by 13:33 a perpetrator and I knew that's so messed her up. 13:36 A mother's heart, you just know this is not my child. 13:39 This anger is way over the top. 13:42 And then my mother arrived from America, I mean from the 13:47 Philippines I'm sorry to America, my brother was in jail 13:51 at the time, I did not know how to break the news to her. 13:56 My husband has to go to work that morning and we stayed up 14:00 late because she came, she arrived late. 14:03 We stayed up, we never slept we were trying to catch up 14:06 on times and in the back of my mind I said, dear God help me 14:13 I don't know how to break this news to my mother. 14:16 Then finally she said, can I mention this? 14:22 She said where's Norman and I had to tell her. 14:27 - I can't even imagine how hard that conversation must've been. 14:32 - I became her enemy. - she was angry at you? 14:36 My mother would not believe, would not believe. 14:39 So you know what it feels like even to a molested victim 14:42 because a lot of victim's people do not believe them. 14:44 So I believed also just for the sake of all families 14:49 they're going to listen, that when one is molested 14:53 everyone is victimized, every member. 14:56 Because it changes the whole dynamics of the family. 14:59 Because we love each other it is so painful, but anyway 15:03 God is so good because He gave me this inner strength 15:10 even though maybe I broken outside, the inside God is 15:16 saying, you are not alone. 15:18 So now not only does Virna go through that time where she 15:26 is abusive to you verbally, even physically sometimes aye? 15:30 One-time umhumm. - in school angry and left home and ended 15:35 up in San Francisco, did you know that she ended up in 15:38 San Francisco in the gay lifestyle? 15:40 That is good question Cheri, I found out about her being 15:46 gay from another woman. - how did you find out? 15:49 This woman is also gay, and she had a disagreement with 15:56 Virna, out of spite she called me to break the news to me. 16:01 Ah so she was trying to hurt Virna. 16:03 She was trying to hurt Virna and me, maybe she not 16:06 realizing she is going to hurt me, but because she was 16:09 also adopted by a family but after the adopted mother 16:14 the mother that adopted her passed away, all the siblings 16:19 of the two children of the mother disowned her. 16:22 She was taken it out on Virna because Virna has a good 16:27 family who loves her. 16:29 Out of jealousy, out of spite she calls me and it was on 16:34 the Sabbath day, I came home from church and she break 16:39 the news to me. - what did she say? 16:41 You know she is half Filipino like me, and Filipino 16:48 calls auntie an uncle even though were not related so she 16:50 said auntie, I've known her do you know about Virna, do you 16:56 know anything about Virna? I said what about Virna? 16:59 Do you know that she is gay, she just blurted it out. 17:04 I said, because I was already a Christian, a Bible 17:11 Christian. I'm an Adventist that I know the truth and 17:15 I was praying while she was talking. 17:17 - because you knew, you could tell by her voice and 17:20 you wanted to protect yourself. 17:23 He helped me right away, it always works when you say 17:28 Lord please help me, He's there. 17:30 So what did He have you say to her? 17:32 I said to her and so, what do you want me to say? 17:36 She said do you still love her? I said of course, 17:40 that is my child. She said you don't feel different? 17:45 I said no, I'm not going to disown her just because 17:49 she's chosen to be gay, that is her choice. 17:53 I may not be approving of her lifestyle, it just came out. 17:58 But many because I'm also trying to witness to Maurice, 18:03 she calls herself Marisa and I said I still love her. 18:08 I cannot disown my child. 18:10 And then she cried, she broke down. 18:13 Because she said I wish somebody would still love me. 18:17 She said auntie you really do, I wish you were my mom. 18:21 I said why, she said my mom passed away about a month ago 18:26 and all the siblings I grew up with just disown me. 18:29 For a lot of people with our sexual orientation and that 18:34 kind of thing as soon as you come and start questioning 18:38 any of that people disown you and I'm thinking our sin, 18:42 is our sin, is our sin and our journey, is our journey, 18:46 is our journey and it's like I think sometimes we have to 18:51 respond with love and not with condemnation. 18:53 You know let someone come to the table with their stuff 18:57 and let's just talk but what I love about God is 19:01 He never disowns us. 19:02 We work through some pretty horrendous issues and God says, 19:06 do you know how much I love you? In the midst of our junk 19:10 in the midst of our acting out, there are stories about 19:13 David, King David in the Bible where he is murdering 19:16 people and sleeping with Bathsheba, murdered her husband 19:20 and God says that is a man after my own heart. 19:22 You know what I mean? I'm thinking God Himself says, 19:26 not that He condones any of that, that He says go and do 19:29 what ever, but He just says you know what, come to Me 19:33 With all this stuff. 19:34 As a mom, you know Sandra I love this about you, you just 19:39 immediately started to pray and stayed in prayer for Virna 19:44 her whole life. - yes. - what was your prayers like? 19:48 What kinds of things did you take to God? 19:50 I said to the Lord, God you gave that child to me, You 19:56 give me the strength to teach me how to pray and I found 20:01 the promise in Romans 8:26 were the Holy Spirit will groan 20:06 through me and I said Lord groan through me. 20:09 Groan through me, I don't know what to say sometimes. 20:13 I'm in pain and it is so painful and I am hurting and 20:17 here I am taking care of a disabled husband also. 20:21 In 1999 he had a stroke. - and at times the stroke 20:26 caused him to have some issues, emotional issues himself. 20:30 So on top of that you are dealing with all this stuff at 20:34 home - yes and so I said God I believe You love me so 20:38 much that You love me, You love me because You died for me. 20:41 You know what I love for people that don't know Virna, 20:46 that don't know that concept of God and the Holy Spirit 20:50 saying groan for me and I will explain that concept is really 20:54 incredible about that is that there are times in our 20:58 lives where pain is so great that God says there are going 21:01 to be times when you don't even know what to pray for. 21:04 Your pain is so deep that you don't even know how to take 21:08 that and put it in words and God says my Spirit 21:12 will groan and speak things that are so deep and so 21:16 real that you don't how to do it but I do, 21:19 I will take those to the Father in heaven. 21:22 What you are saying is that there were times when you 21:25 said to God, groan for me, take this to God for me 21:28 because I don't even know what to pray anymore. 21:31 Yeah and the Lord helped me and it is so wonderful to 21:34 study the Bible because I found out there are 3000 21:37 things, I'm not exactly in numbers the promises. 21:40 So I start claiming promises, I start claiming promises. 21:45 And there's one in Jeremiah 32:17, nothing is too hard 21:51 for God, and the last time the last promise I was 21:55 claiming so hard is, Jeremiah 33:3, I will call on You 22:00 and You will answer me and I will show you mighty things 22:05 that you do not know, and the mighty things that 22:07 He showed me was the conversion of my two daughters. 22:12 It's amazing, amazing, okay I'm going to ask Lisa, 22:16 your other daughter some things and that I'm going to 22:20 get back to what did it feel like when the conversion 22:23 of you two daughters happened? 22:25 Because Lisa I know that during this whole time your mom 22:29 is praying and Virna is coming back to God but you had 22:33 jumped into the lifestyle too and I want to know what 22:38 that was like for you, and what did your mom think now 22:42 that she has both of you in the lifestyle, not knowing 22:45 what happened here or any of that stuff. 22:49 So from your position explain to us what happened? 22:54 Well Cheri you know, just like Virna I at an early age 22:59 had felt inclined to women, to the same-sex. 23:02 Seeing Virna had came out and my mom going through so much, 23:10 I felt like I couldn't. 23:12 All that pain you saw in your home. - right, right. 23:18 So I just felt, sorry - that's all right go ahead and 23:23 I know that you did not want to hurt your mom, that was huge. 23:31 Sorry, so I think battling with homosexuality it's more 23:40 than that, there is a lot of shame and guilt involved. 23:46 Also fear, just knowing how that would impact my whole 23:52 family, knowing how much she was going through. 23:55 Besides my dad having a stroke and it was putting a lot on her. 24:02 - so what happened and I know, so during that time 24:09 where Virna is acting out you started to act out more 24:16 online at first. - yes, yes I really kept it internalized 24:22 for a long time, for years actually. 24:26 She was out for 20 some years I was homophobic, really 24:30 gay inside, I was really confused. 24:32 My identity was really shot, and male figures around me 24:37 would shoot little comments here and there and put me 24:42 down, that also didn't help. 24:45 Confidence in a woman, so I felt more comfortable with women. 24:53 - so when you did come out and your mom found out, 25:00 how difficult was that for you? 25:03 That's a crazy question because I can see it 25:05 in your tears right now. 25:07 It was difficult but the Lord was carrying me through 25:12 that moment and He impressed upon my heart and that was 25:17 proof for me that He was healing me from that. 25:21 Because what was really another thing that I would like 25:25 you to talk about really quick is as you came out 25:28 you also had a relationship as Virna was coming back to God. 25:32 a relationship where you are turning back to God 25:35 and coming into a right relationship. 25:38 Right, so when we got re-baptized together, maybe a 25:43 few months after I had felt impressed to tell my mom the 25:47 truth. I know we serve a God that is righteousness and 25:52 truth, He is full of truth. 25:54 He wanted me to be up front from lying all those years to 25:59 everyone, so one day I sat with her after breakfast and 26:05 I waited for her to eat of course and I took her hand and 26:09 told her to do know who I was living with in Florida for 26:13 three years? She said were you living with a man? 26:18 And at that moment I wished, but no I was living with a women. 26:26 At that point I was breaking up and tearing and she 26:34 just looked at me and we both cried. 26:38 She goes oh when did this happen, she had all these 26:42 questions and I just brought her to my room and cradled 26:45 her and she said I'm so sorry, so sorry. 26:48 I said no I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. 26:51 But she said if you told me earlier, when Virna told me 26:56 I think I would've just given up on God altogether. 27:02 We cried together and we just know that was God's mercy 27:07 because He does everything out in His time. 27:11 I wish we had so much time to get into this, we are coming 27:16 at the end of our program, but I know Lisa that as you 27:21 came to a place for you are getting baptized and coming 27:25 back around and being honest with your mom, and your 27:28 prayers are covering your daughters I know that God is 27:31 reconciling this and it is incredibly hard to cover all 27:35 of this in an hour, but what I know is God covers it completely 27:40 He covers a completely. - Amen. 27:41 We are going to take a break and come back and close. 27:45 I would like everyone to just come up during the close, 27:49 not everyone in the café but the whole family to come up 27:52 and we're going to talk a little bit so just stay with us. 27:55 We serve a mighty God, that is all I can say. |
Revised 2014-12-17