Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Dan & Angela Clark
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR00078B
00:14 Welcome back, so no we are going to find out, Dan we
00:17 heard a lot of what got you from childhood through your
00:21 alcoholism, to your addictions, through the sexual stuff,
00:25 and to me the only thing I can see is this incredibly
00:29 lonely child underneath all that.
00:32 So when you guys meet, he has been in recovery for
00:35 awhile, you're back in the church?
00:38 No! - so where did you meet?
00:43 I guess I'll answer, actually he was needing to go to a
00:46 training center, my job sent me to the same training
00:50 center for finalization and certification type thing.
00:54 That is where we met, I had just literally a few days
00:57 before, filed for a divorce, unfortunately after
01:00 24 years of being married.
01:02 I came to find out that my husband, I had been involved
01:05 in a cult, and God Himself revealed that to me.
01:08 Let me interrupt for a minute, because I don't know
01:10 what you mean by a cult?
01:12 Well a cult would be, it could be any kind of form.
01:15 In a Christian way of looking at it, actually any cult,
01:19 they control you in different Marriott of ways.
01:22 They will use sleep deprivation, secrets, isolating you,
01:27 - how about yours? - all of that.
01:29 In my case it was channeling, I thought it was a prophet,
01:33 God speaking through him, but actually it was channeling
01:38 and for some reason I did not know that.
01:40 Like speaking to the dead?
01:41 You know it was using your body and allowing someone,
01:45 a spirit to speak through you and you use body to give
01:49 a message, they can say they were God, or they can say
01:52 they were a spirit and giving a message from God.
01:56 Or an angel or any of those things.
01:58 - So you just wanted to run?
02:00 Actually when I realized it wasn't of God,
02:03 I wanted nothing to do with it.
02:05 So I was trying to get my husband to get to the bottom
02:08 of this because if we are not following God, we do not
02:11 want to be going down this road.
02:13 He absolutely was not going to do that.
02:14 Not only that, but God revealed to me that my husband was
02:18 having an affair with my sister.
02:20 So I was like oh my, and I confronted him with that.
02:23 He first admitted it, then a few hours later he calls
02:26 back and says, God says I can't say that because it's not
02:29 really true and he never admitted it again.
02:33 So I was the bad guy. - what did your sister say?
02:36 She denied it as well, but he was living at her house at
02:40 the time and sleeping in her huge King size bed saying,
02:45 he was a prophet of God.
02:46 I believed that if he was a man of God, he would never
02:49 do such a thing to me.
02:50 If God was leading and directing him and I have been told
02:53 through the channeling that you are never to question
02:56 your husband as one of the closest men to me on the face
02:59 of this earth, he knows me better than anyone and what
03:02 he says is as if from me.
03:04 - I believe for a lot of people it is hard to realize
03:07 the extent of a deception, we had the case of Jim Jones where
03:11 everybody goes over and literally kills themselves.
03:14 We say well how does that happen?
03:15 It is one step after another, after another,
03:18 after another, and now you are fighting against all that
03:20 and saying, we have to get out.
03:23 But I met Dan right after I had realized this.
03:26 I was abused beyond belief at this point.
03:30 My body was dying and I knew it.
03:32 I think I had about a year left to live and I knew that.
03:35 I was so thankful, because I reached out to God.
03:37 I think God help me I feel so alone, because when they
03:41 isolate you, I ended up being the scape-goat.
03:44 So they isolated me and I felt like I had no one.
03:47 I was very alone and my husband had said to me a few days
03:50 before, Angela, you have succeeded in alienating everyone
03:53 against you, but don't worry honey,
03:56 I'll always be here for you.
03:58 So in other words I'm the only when you have now and yet
04:01 he was abusing me and I didn't really recognize that.
04:05 He was abusing me mentally, emotionally, spiritually,
04:09 I wasn't good enough, everything was wrong and
04:11 it was all my fault.
04:12 So God revealed this to me, I said, God I need someone
04:18 alongside me, I'm not going to make it.
04:20 I knew I wasn't going to make it, even though I felt he
04:23 hated me because they taught me God was very displeased
04:26 with me and he wasn't speaking to me and I was being very
04:30 isolated, but God within hours brought people alongside
04:34 me that very day.
04:36 In the middle of the night I had to go to the store and
04:38 I met women that both invited me to their churches.
04:41 I said okay, I think this is You answering my
04:43 prayers Lord, thank you.
04:45 I went to one of their churches and my eyes were opened
04:48 within 24 hours after having been to that church service.
04:51 They laid hands on me and prayed for me and I did know
04:54 the truth, and the truth set me free.
04:56 Then I met Dan literally just two days later.
04:59 He saw me all covered up and looking like a wounded bird,
05:04 damaged and he was as if God zoned his eyes in a me.
05:09 So he paid attention to me and we met there and began a
05:13 friendship and I have been reading 'Codependency No More'
05:17 and 'Boundaries' and then Dan picked up on that.
05:20 So you started to read the codependency stuff because of
05:24 your codependency in this relationship? - no! - why?
05:28 I don't know, first God led me to 'Boundaries' through
05:31 someone saying Angela, you have to get this book
05:33 'Boundaries' and somehow it stuck in me like I need that.
05:36 Somehow I knew I needed it, so I went to the library
05:38 and I checked it out.
05:39 Because the first thing in an abusive relationship,
05:42 or abusive churches, is they take all your boundaries
05:44 away and you have no right to your own space,
05:46 you have no right to your own thoughts, you have no
05:48 right to any of that stuff.
05:50 So your boundaries are really violated.
05:52 Yes and not only that but I was raised in that.
05:55 Our family never had any boundaries of any kind,
05:59 in any way. - so we didn't hear that as far as
06:03 how were you raised?
06:04 I was raised in a religious cults, a very large one.
06:09 Worldwide, world renowned and my father worked at it.
06:13 In fact my father is now working for Better Live TV in
06:18 Grants Pass Oregon. - I know that!
06:22 It was quite abusive, same kind of thing, they controlled
06:25 everything you did, one year it was okay to do this,
06:28 next year it was not.
06:29 They just control you and there is fear for leaving,
06:32 for being in a lake of fire, or hell, or whatever
06:35 you want to call it.
06:37 For leaving, they control everything you do.
06:40 So my parents were very much that way, and I forgot were
06:44 we were going with that?
06:45 So that set you up to get into this relationship with
06:49 your husband and the cult he was in?
06:51 Yes, right, exactly right.
06:52 The devil knew that I was vulnerable and that I was use
06:54 to obeying orders, not thinking for myself.
06:57 That is part of the problem with a cult, you don't use
07:00 your mind. - I know I'm smiling at that because I have
07:02 never obeyed orders in my life.
07:03 I think how does he do that?
07:07 I see that, that you were set up from a child to just
07:10 tell me what to do and I'll do it.
07:14 It sounds like I would do it with love, I'll try to do
07:17 it right, and I'll try to do it well.
07:18 Yeah that was my nature, I want to be pleasing that is
07:21 my nature and some people would say I don't care.
07:23 My sister for one, she is the opposite of me.
07:26 She went the rebel route, but I chose the submissive one.
07:31 That was the route I chose, neither one is really healthy,
07:36 they are both the wrong way, but you don't
07:38 know what else to do.
07:39 Yeah I tried to obey everything I was told to do and
07:42 I wanted to comply and make everyone pleased with me.
07:45 I wanted love and I wanted others to love me.
07:47 A wanted my father to love me and be proud of me.
07:49 God, the Church, I was always about what other people thought.
07:53 Most churches I had ever been in, it seems to me,
07:56 I notice that it's a problem.
07:59 At least that we need to not be so concerned...
08:02 so who told you to get the 'Boundaries' book,
08:05 the boundaries and codependency books?
08:07 One of the ladies at the church, I can't quite remember,
08:10 I remember that clicked with me.
08:11 It was like I need that, so I went right to the library
08:15 and I got it and start reading it.
08:16 That is where met Dan, and then I started realizing for
08:19 some reason someone invited me to a 12 step and told me
08:22 what it was, and I thought old that's for me too and I
08:25 went and signed up for that.
08:26 I went to the county and signed up for domestic violence,
08:29 why did I do that, I didn't have any idea I was being
08:32 abused, and I learned stuff there.
08:35 They gave me free counseling and I learned stuff there.
08:38 Like she gave me a book and she told me about
08:39 'Codependency No More' and I went and got that book.
08:42 So then Dan started backing me up by saying Angela, blah, blah,
08:47 blah your mother is doing this and that.
08:48 It's okay to say no, remember your reading that in the book.
08:51 Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's boundaries.
08:53 So talk about that for people that do not know what
08:56 codependency is, either Dan or Angela.
08:58 What would you say, what is it?
09:04 It seems like trying to fix everything, being needy,
09:06 totally consumed by people outside of yourself.
09:10 As if you are their savior, your their protector, your their
09:14 what ever and you are never at home.
09:17 You are always out here.
09:18 So her mother had that pull on her where she was always
09:22 concerned as if her mother was happy with her or not.
09:25 She hadn't cut that string so to speak.
09:30 I was taught to stand to stay in my body and I had
09:32 a therapist say, you're outside your body.
09:35 Sit down and feel the floor and be grounded.
09:37 You are out here in everybody else's life, all you have
09:40 been talking about is the girls at work, and people over
09:42 here, he was like lets come home.
09:44 And I was like oh, so I learned.
09:46 - What a gift to teach people that,
09:48 it's how to stay present.
09:50 So I stayed at home so when I met Angela I saw her,
09:54 we would be riding from downtown Denver back home
09:57 and she would be getting peoples numbers, the homeless exchanging
10:00 numbers in all this and I'm like, stay over here.
10:03 Just look at that guy over there,
10:04 if you know what I mean.
10:05 So I could be totally centered in myself and at peace,
10:10 and know they are having their journey and I had a right
10:14 relationship, if I needed to serve in some way I could.
10:18 But it was a choice as opposed to just a reactive,
10:21 I have to fix everybody and take care of everybody.
10:24 Which is what I think with Angela being the oldest,
10:27 sometimes the oldest, she raised all her sisters.
10:30 She was her mom's right-hand person.
10:33 - Dan, like you said in a lot of churches, they look at
10:37 that as a great quality because we need potluck done,
10:40 we need church secretary done, and we need to get
10:43 the directory done, so you find somebody that is
10:45 co-dependent and you think Amen.
10:48 Can I say one other thing? - Yeah!
10:50 When I first heard their blood is on my hands in my
10:54 church, when I heard that I felt like I had to save the
10:58 world, I felt everywhere I go we were told to hand out
11:02 this, and preach, and I believe we're that way.
11:05 We are to be loving and joyful, but to rescue everybody,
11:09 I didn't have the perspective right that their job is to
11:13 come to God and surrender, and me, I'm to be a light,
11:16 if you know what I mean.
11:18 So I didn't have to fix. - nor play God.
11:21 So even with the dysfunction from your household that
11:24 just put much pressure on you. - guilt.
11:28 I can't rescue my mom and now you tell me I have to
11:30 rescue the whole world or else I'm guilty.
11:32 I was at a grocery store and totally shamed like
11:35 I didn't do God's will today.
11:37 That sounds like so much pressure.
11:39 It was enormous pressure, I had a lot of religious
11:42 pressure on me when I was young, actually when I was
11:46 a little older, we had to go door to door.
11:48 I went out for an hour, I felt like I needed to be out
11:52 two hours, I went out two hours, then I felt like I could
11:56 have been out three hours because we were told at that
12:00 time the only thing God accepted was our absolute best.
12:03 So from a codependent, I had this huge burden on me to
12:08 every moment be saving and rescuing and so religion
12:12 just really wore me down.
12:15 I am so glad you said that, a lot of people do feel that
12:19 in their recovery it has to be the absolute best, God says
12:22 the best of the best of us are a mess.
12:26 So He is even saying, take a breath, I love you, let Me
12:30 step into your life and let you have peace with all that
12:33 stuff, let Me fill your heart up, and that type of thing.
12:36 It sounds like both of you have gotten trapped in
12:39 organizations that didn't give you that message at all.
12:42 Go ahead. - our Scripture that they told us over and
12:45 over was seek righteousness, seek meekness, and you might
12:48 be concealed in the day of Jehovah's anger.
12:51 So it was like we had to be perfect, and we were always told
12:54 consider your circumstances, consider your circumstances
12:58 if you can spend 60 hours a month or 90 hours a month on
13:02 door to door, then that would be acceptable to God.
13:05 So if you don't get that time?
13:08 - you weren't doing your best,
13:11 and only your best was good enough.
13:13 So we had to live for that, there were so much shame and
13:17 fear that I actually got sick.
13:19 I need to let Angela talk, but I actually had like a lump
13:22 in my chest from religious shame and guilt because of my
13:25 co-dependent view and how I lived that and tried to carry
13:28 it out in religion, trying to save everybody.
13:31 You know I'm coming from like I'm a heroine addict,
13:34 I'm a druggie and my family is druggies.
13:36 I have no religion at all, I meet God in a drug house
13:39 trying to kill myself and He absolutely adores me.
13:42 So when I hear from your background, I think it must be
13:46 harder to get a better view of God, or a more honest view
13:49 of God because of what you have been told.
13:52 Yeah our God was angry.
13:53 I just want to say, in my situation it was the same
13:56 thing, with my growing up years I was in one cult and
13:58 I found the Lord during Billy Graham in the middle of
14:01 two cults, and then I was involved in another one with
14:03 my husband, but both of those was the same thing where
14:07 you were not good enough, the second was so severe it was
14:10 almost like you believe all these things and you have
14:13 to have a lot of faith, if you don't have enough faith it
14:16 is not perfect faith then you are not good enough and God
14:19 is not pleased with you.
14:20 Because in the last cult, since I didn't have enough
14:23 faith everyone blamed me for all these things that God
14:25 couldn't bless us with because I didn't have enough
14:28 faith, you know something I was the only one in the group
14:30 who did everything we were told to do.
14:32 Write 21 times a day, visualize, see, smell, taste,
14:37 do posters and notebooks full of all the pictures full
14:41 of everything that God is wanting you to have.
14:44 You just have to have enough faith and we are all going
14:46 to have it, were going to go on cruises together as
14:48 a family because I am believing for that.
14:50 We promised our kids we would do it, and all Angela has
14:53 to do is do her part because we are there with our faith,
14:57 but Angela your the problem here.
14:59 Since you didn't measure up, in the end my kids to
15:02 this day hate me because we did not get all of those
15:05 things, those material things.
15:07 I'm not a material girl, never was,
15:10 but I was told to be pleasing to God,
15:12 He wanted us to have these things.
15:15 He wants to bless us in abundance.
15:17 Therefore I need to have the proper perfect faith.
15:20 So again perfection is always there and it was very sick
15:25 situation and to this day my kids don't talk to me.
15:29 It has been 6 years, 5 and 1/2 years since I've had
15:33 a relationship with them.
15:34 I bet that causes you a lot of pain.
15:36 No, at first it was hard, but God is good.
15:41 He will give you the grace to deal with what ever
15:44 you have to go through, no matter what it is.
15:46 To lose two kids to death, I don't know what it is for you
15:49 but all I know is God gives you the grace to handle it,
15:52 and He just literally it took me some time, but I eventually
15:56 was able to let go and let God, you know what I mean.
15:59 - trust Him with it. - yes because I can't control
16:01 everything, the codependency comes here again.
16:03 I want to fix, I want to heal, I want to go rescue.
16:08 Even the word control is for codependence if I can control
16:12 everything then everybody will be okay, and happy,
16:15 and do the right thing and it will just be.
16:18 Instead of God saying, whoa, whoa, whoa are you
16:20 forgetting that you are not God?
16:22 Are you forgetting that I am God and that I can take
16:24 care this better than you can. I love them more than you do.
16:27 I'm like wow God, I'm so sorry, you're right.
16:31 As you guys met, as you got into a relationship,
16:34 you were a head of her a little bit and working with
16:37 those codependent issues.
16:39 So when did you guys realize that you are falling in love
16:43 and what things did you learn about not being
16:47 codependent with each other?
16:48 Can I say, when we came together, Dan was watching me.
16:52 I was cutting the ties at every break in this training
16:57 center that we had.
16:58 He was watching me, like God caused him to pay attention
17:01 to me and I finally said do you need to use
17:04 the phone, I'm sorry.
17:06 He would say no, no, no can I get you some coffee or
17:08 doughnut and I'm like okay sure.
17:10 I'm noticing, oh wow he's watching me.
17:13 Then I said, Sir can I just tell you my story?
17:16 He said ah, sure go right ahead.
17:19 So I told him my whole crazy story that I had never
17:22 told anyone my story.
17:24 I had just filed divorce three days before at this point.
17:27 I'm telling him my story and he melted, and then he gave
17:31 me a hug, and he was a hardened guy at this point.
17:33 He was hurt really bad, lonely but he had just pray the night
17:37 before, God you know what?
17:39 I've gone in all the wrong places looking for women.
17:42 He will tell you this story, but I'm sick of it.
17:45 I surrender to you God, and I don't know where she is
17:48 but You do, and the very next day he met me.
17:51 Yeah, God is good.
17:54 All I can think of, who would damaged such a sweet woman?
17:58 She was really in bad shape, she was what would you call
18:02 it, detaching, disassociated, and I thought she is so
18:07 Sweet, who hurt her like that?
18:08 Who helped her lose herself? How did she lose herself?
18:11 I think it was incredible that you could even see that
18:14 in her, who wounded her?
18:16 It sounds like part of you, that was such a helper
18:21 throughout your life, even with your mom, wanted to say,
18:23 can I help in anyway?
18:26 Yes, absolutely I did want to help, just be there and
18:29 support her in any way I can.
18:30 I did want to hurt her anymore.
18:33 I wanted to say, what is amazing too is that Dan
18:36 and I were both raised in the same kind of religion,
18:39 believe it or not.
18:40 Even though his was different than mine, it was very,
18:44 very similar. - so you guys understood each other?
18:46 Yeah, we really, really did and there was no one else
18:49 that could have understood me like Dan.
18:51 I stand in awe of that because it is so complicated that
18:57 it would take somebody that understood me and where
19:00 I came from, and likewise for me to understand him in order
19:03 to help each other, but God saw I needed healing and
19:05 He saw that Dan needed healing.
19:07 There was no one on the face of the earth that could do
19:10 what Dan could do for me, and likewise what
19:12 I could do for him.
19:13 He needed the love and the tenderness, because he had not
19:17 received that as a child.
19:19 I needed his expertise, he had been trained by a woman,
19:23 who he calls his angel.
19:25 For five years she mentored him, he had been very
19:29 dysfunctional in the world and once he realized he had
19:33 grown up in a very dysfunctional church and family,
19:36 who mentored him how to function in the world,
19:39 to communicate, to speak, to just live.
19:44 He didn't even know the basics of living and how to
19:47 survive in the world, and she mentored him.
19:50 Was she like a counselor?
19:52 Yes, sort of, I was doing some work for a guy next door
19:55 and he said, we have to work for this lady.
19:57 I did some work in she looked at me, and I looked at her,
20:00 she was very intimidating with this big black gown and
20:03 a big red scarf and people ran when she came
20:06 down the street, and she paid me for what
20:08 a contractor didn't pay me.
20:10 I said you don't have to give me all this money,
20:12 and she says no I want to.
20:14 Anyway she worked with me for five years and I didn't know
20:17 her, she said my leaders Christ that's all she told me.
20:19 I never saw her go to church and I was like who are these
20:22 people, finally I meet her husband two years later.
20:24 He was a retired anesthesiologist.
20:27 He came up to me at McDonald's, and the lady would always
20:30 show up with a pencil and paper and say we are going to
20:33 work on codependency today, work or work on.
20:34 I'm going what is that and what is this?
20:38 But this lady was a real angel and I meet her husband and
20:40 he has this big beard and I was intimidated, I thought
20:43 I hope he doesn't think I'm with his wife or something.
20:46 He came over and gives me this big hug for five minutes.
20:49 I'm thinking, who are these people?
20:50 He said we love you and he is rubbing on my back.
20:53 I finally asked, what do you guys want with me?
20:56 He said our job is to love and your job is to love.
20:59 I was like whoa, and they took me in for four years
21:02 and helped me through so many things.
21:05 May I tell you one-story? - yes, I want to say is
21:08 that God does that for us and knew that you didn't get
21:11 love, He wanted to put you in an environment where people
21:14 love for no reason other than for your healing.
21:17 Yes, and she was right there.
21:21 One day I would call her, this is how the situation
21:24 worked, I called her one-day and I said they're going
21:26 to fire me at my job.
21:28 She said take out your pencil, and I took out this pencil
21:30 and I said, they're going to fire me.
21:32 She said why? I went through three pages of why they
21:35 were going to fire me, and I'm going to get headhunters
21:37 and find another job.
21:38 She said, okay that's great now put it away.
21:41 The next day my boss told me I was the most wonderful guy
21:44 on the crew and this and that.
21:46 I called her back and I said, hey, my boss just told me
21:49 I was great, I was doing a great job, and dah, dah, dah.
21:52 She said, now read your notes.
21:54 I read their going to fire me because of that, I know they
21:57 are, I better get another job.
21:59 She said she know what Dan, that's crazy thinking.
22:03 That hallucination and that's the kind of sickness you
22:06 have, so what I want you to do before you ever come to a
22:10 conclusion, I want you to go over and ask that person
22:13 is this the way it is?
22:15 Never call me again and give me this story, this illusion
22:18 that you made up about this thing.
22:20 So I started learning, she was teaching me like that.
22:23 That is how me and Angela worked, I didn't tell her all
22:26 the things, I would let her get into the drama,
22:30 the codependency. - you know Dan I have to say.
22:33 I have attachment disorders and bonding disorders,
22:37 so I know what it feels like to never feel like you fit
22:40 in, or to all the sudden make all these scenarios up in
22:42 your head when you walk into a place.
22:44 Wouldn't it be incredible if everyone, that has
22:47 that issue, that has those struggles,
22:49 heard what you just said?
22:50 You can literally challenge what you think, and that is
22:54 what she was teaching you to do.
22:55 It's amazing! - yes and she did so many things,
22:58 she was totally accepting me.
23:01 It was like she was never going to abandon me.
23:03 If you got that problem let's work on it.
23:06 I'm like, work on it,
23:07 I was hiding if you know what I mean.
23:09 So we went down to Barnes & Noble's and she bought
23:13 all these books, about $100 worth of books which had to
23:15 do with sexual addiction.
23:17 She put them on the table, she goes now you can tell me
23:19 about what you have done, even thought about it or done
23:22 it, that was the opened door.
23:24 I wasn't telling nobody, so I tell her.
23:27 She starts to chuckle, let's take the books back to
23:30 Barnes & Noble's and let's work on this thing together.
23:34 She handed me a tape from a Christian minister that
23:38 talked about that desire, that sexual desire,
23:40 how God created us to become fruitful and become many
23:43 and fill the earth.
23:44 That desire was part of being natural.
23:48 - it wasn't twisted. - it wasn't.
23:50 That's the way God created you to be!
23:52 Yes, and I went all my and that shame lifted off me,
23:55 and I could move, and my chest lightened up.
23:58 She just looked at me and said, something's wrong,
24:00 you're bound up, what's wrong?
24:02 She told me you could either have done it or thought
24:04 about it and I thought I could tell her anything.
24:07 And I could, this was the relationship we have with
24:09 this lady, it was totally wide open.
24:12 It was the strangest thing.
24:14 And for the first time in your life it sounds like
24:17 someone allowed you to get a sense of what is normal
24:19 and not normal, because you didn't get that as a child.
24:21 You did not get that growing up when you get into
24:24 a religion that didn't give you that.
24:26 Then you got twisted, so you didn't get it when you are
24:29 on the streets until someone said, let's unfold this.
24:32 Yes and actually I got to thank the gentleman who made
24:36 the tape, he was a monk in a monastery, almost 90 years
24:40 old, and I said thank you, you help me when I was 18.
24:44 He was like, well pass it on, he said just pass it on.
24:48 It was the most unbelievable thing, but that tape was
24:51 it totally undid me, it was like Awwwh,
24:55 and it saved my life I believe.
24:57 I would like to go to questions, but before we do
24:59 I would like you to say what are some of the number one
25:03 things that helped you to come out of all that damage,
25:08 I know this woman allowing you to just talk.
25:10 Talk about for someone that is in that damage, what
25:13 things could they do to maintain or to get into recovery?
25:18 Do you want me to talk right now? - yeah!
25:20 I would say find someone you can talk to.
25:23 Find a good 12 step, or a good church where people are
25:28 open and honest and safe.
25:29 There are a lot of unhealthy 12 steps.
25:33 There are all lot of unhealthy churches, if I might say
25:35 that, and find somebody that is for real.
25:38 Someone that you can talk to and open up with and share.
25:41 If they are accepting of you, and they love you and you
25:43 can see that love of God in them, that is the main thing.
25:46 It's interesting to me about that.
25:49 For a lot of us we end up, in our damage, in our fear,
25:53 in our depression, anger, addiction or whatever it is,
25:57 we get more and more isolated, and
26:00 sometimes we try to heal in that isolation.
26:02 We are meant to be in community so I like what
26:05 you are saying, find some group, find some person
26:08 and start to reverse what you did to get yourself
26:11 into all this sadness.
26:13 Reverse that, it is hard at first, it's hard to trust,
26:16 it's hard to come out, it's hard to connect, and we look
26:19 crazy, were coming out with all this junk.
26:22 Come out anyway.
26:24 - absolutely, she was a lifesaver for me.
26:27 What I want to say, for people that are looking for
26:30 counseling coming out of crazy situations, for a female
26:33 try to find a female for a male try to find a male.
26:35 You lucked out in that she hung in there with you and
26:38 that works but sometimes it can turn on you.
26:40 So if you can, do the same-sex counseling.
26:43 I want to open it up to questions, because I know we
26:47 have some questions in the café.
26:49 Rachel you had a question.
26:52 My name is Rachel and I am a recovering addict and we
26:55 deal with a lot, I guess my question is for both of you.
26:58 You mentioned something about spiritual abuse.
27:02 We came across it a little, the spiritual abuse and do you
27:07 have any advice to offer, because I was never spiritually
27:11 abused at all and I heard that is a tough one to deal
27:14 with, so my question is how do you approach somebody
27:18 who has been spiritually abused to turn their
27:21 life over to Jesus?
27:23 I guess first of all let them know that God loves
27:27 them no matter what.
27:28 A lot at times religious abuse has to do with shame
27:30 and guilt and that you are not good enough to God.
27:34 To help them to understand that God loves them no
27:37 matter what, I would suggest using the prodigal son story
27:40 a lot, and that is Dan's favorite story in the Bible.
27:43 For people that don't know that story, what is the story?
27:46 It's about coming back home.
27:49 The prodigal son story was one of the trilogies that
27:52 Jesus gave in the New Testament.
27:53 There was the dropped coin, the lost sheep, and the
27:56 prodigal son that wanted to go on his own journey.
27:58 - partying, acting out.
28:01 Yeah, he wanted to live his own life.
28:03 His father represented God and it was the illustration
28:04 Jesus was giving to teach.
28:06 So his father told the son to go live your life,
28:10 it's your slice of the pie, go live your life.
28:13 The interesting thing about it was, the father still
28:16 loved him while he was on that journey, while he was out
28:19 there doing all these things.
28:20 He got in trouble with loose women and
28:22 he did this and he did that.
28:23 He finally ended up with the pigs, the pigs wouldn't even
28:27 give him something to eat.
28:29 While he was in that desolate, down position he started
28:33 to get some awareness.
28:35 I'm in trouble here, oh, if only I could go back home to
28:38 my father, he had no idea that God loved him.
28:40 That his father loved him unconditionally.
28:43 So when he came back home there was this instant
28:46 restoration, we he back home his father's eyes lit up
28:49 and they embraced, he put a coat on him and a ring and
28:52 they had a big meal.
28:54 There was no judgment, no harsh judgment that you were
28:57 bad, you were no good.
28:59 You somehow have to pay and makeup for what you did.
29:03 You have to be sorry enough.
29:04 You had to do penitence. - It was none of that.
29:08 It was just saying I am so glad you are home and that
29:12 you are safe, let me feed you.
29:14 That is healing, so when you are that kind of person
29:18 and for that person that has been struggling religiously,
29:21 when you are the unconditional love, the unconditional
29:24 love of God is flowing through you it is there for them.
29:28 They see the Christ, they see God.
29:30 So when we are that, that is the healing.
29:33 When we say we love you, you're back home, thank God you
29:36 are home and the Bible says there's more rejoicing in
29:38 heaven over one and we are that important.
29:42 The other two trilogies there was actually a search that
29:45 went on, the lady searched all over for the coin until
29:47 she found it and there was great rejoicing.
29:51 There wasn't shame, or you bad coin your lost.
29:56 Or the other story with the sheep, we are that important
29:59 that God would search for us and try to find that sheep.
30:02 Then when the connection is made there is huge rejoicing.
30:06 So the shame people have, you know what I mean?
30:09 You are doing bad, you're outside of religion.
30:12 You know that he didn't even say, old dad I'm so sorry
30:15 please forgive me, before, the dad was already saying,
30:17 son I love you and I'm so that your back.
30:20 We think we have to do these big gyrations to get God's
30:23 love back, I remember one time that God helped me to
30:26 know, Angela I miss you, just knowing that God was
30:29 missing me, here I was quilting myself over something for days.
30:33 I wouldn't connect with Him again, because I had this
30:35 shame and guilt about something.
30:37 All of a sudden I got it, God was trying to say, Angela
30:40 quit wasting all this time, I miss you.
30:43 Let's get this out of the way, come on I'm miss you.
30:46 I thought, that was it for me, when I make a mistake
30:49 I apologize and it is over and we are back together.
30:51 What I have to say is, I can see that clearly in both
30:54 of your stories, you believe that God loves you and you
30:57 know that He has forgiven you and you receive that and
30:59 it has been healing.
31:01 Thank you for joining us I think it has been amazing
31:03 to have you here.
31:04 I hope you can come again. - thank you!
31:06 We'll be right back, I have a few more things I would
31:09 like to say, so stay with us.