Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Janelle & Donald Owen
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000134A
00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to addictive behavior.
00:05 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:06 may be too candid for younger children.
00:11 Over the years everything has changed
00:13 especially who we are sexually
00:15 and even the porn industry and all that kind of stuff
00:18 and we're gonna cover that with our guests today.
00:21 So welcome to Celebrating Life in Recovery.
00:23 I'm Cheri your host, come join us in the cafe.
00:25 It is gonna be an eye opener but so cool.
00:56 I am so...
00:57 this program today is gonna be intense for some
01:00 but it is one of my favorite things
01:01 to talk about who we are,
01:03 who we are in every aspect of our lives.
01:05 And I want to say
01:07 the book that we're doing all season long
01:09 is Victory in Jesus.
01:11 And the reason I chose this book for this season
01:13 is because some of us don't realize
01:16 that we are saved by grace and grace alone.
01:19 Everything that I respond to the love of God,
01:22 every time I want to change, every time I want to do better,
01:25 every time I want to be better,
01:26 every time I want to be all that.
01:28 It's not because I'm trying to earn God's affection.
01:31 I'm trying to be good enough because, man, I don't think
01:34 I'll ever make good enough in the eyes of God,
01:37 but He is crazy about me.
01:40 Do you know what I mean, He's crazy about you.
01:42 And so we're gonna talk today about an experience
01:45 that I had first before I introduce our guests
01:47 and I love these guys.
01:49 But another book that we're gonna talk about this season
01:52 is God is Crazy about You.
01:54 And the reason I wrote that
01:56 is because when I first got into recovery,
01:58 every single time I turned around,
02:00 I saw different aspects of God that was amazing.
02:02 And at one point I get called to go to Thailand
02:06 to rescue kids from the sex trade industry.
02:08 And I'm thinking, you know what,
02:10 I can't wait because some of these kids are young,
02:13 like as young as two, I mean just tiny kids
02:17 and so we raise funds and we're gonna go
02:19 and we're gonna sponsor them
02:20 and get them into safe houses and schools.
02:22 And then I get kind of a threat from the Thai mafia.
02:25 I don't even know how do they know me,
02:27 but they threatened to gut me.
02:28 I'm gonna gut you, whip your intestines out
02:32 and hang them in the back of the club.
02:34 And I thought "Oh, this is gonna be good."
02:36 Because we're getting people
02:39 that nervous about us coming over.
02:42 I can't wait to see what God does.
02:43 Well, my husband didn't take it the same way.
02:46 He's like, "They're gonna gut you?
02:48 Wait a minute, you're not going and you're not taking Jacky"
02:51 which was my daughter.
02:52 So, I said, you know, I have to go
02:55 because I think it's gonna, you know,
02:56 I just, I just have to go
02:58 because some people are so lost in their life,
03:02 in their addiction, they're sold off really young
03:04 and they really have no idea that there's a God in heaven
03:07 that cannot only change their life,
03:08 but they have a plan for them.
03:10 Literally, they will at one point heal so significantly
03:16 that they will delight to be in their own skin
03:18 and somebody's got to tell him, I got to tell him.
03:21 So and so Brad is trying to talk me out of it, I said,
03:24 you know, I love you but I have to go
03:26 and then someone says
03:28 you're liable for anybody you take,
03:30 I'm taking these, you know, kids with me
03:32 and one girl had been viciously raped as a kid
03:35 and she's healing and she said, you know, Cheri, I have to go.
03:37 I think this is part of my healing.
03:39 So I had to get her mom to sign a death release form.
03:43 If she gets killed, you can't sue me, you know.
03:46 And so her mom is like you want me to sign what,
03:49 and it was clearly stated
03:50 this is what they've threatened us.
03:53 And if she goes you have to release a liability with us,
03:56 so we get there
03:58 and we are talking to a number of kids you know.
04:01 We one time I met with 140 prostitutes,
04:06 kids that are sold at night in the industry.
04:09 I went to the red light district
04:10 and 70 percent were men
04:12 that were buying and selling these kids,
04:13 30 percent were women.
04:15 So they were men and women.
04:16 It was just one of the most intense thing
04:19 and we did get all these threats
04:21 and people were trying to scare us in our face
04:23 and all that kind of stuff.
04:24 And at one point I go to this...
04:28 It was probably
04:30 where children are bought and sold more
04:33 and so a lot of tourists don't go.
04:35 In some of these countries,
04:38 red light district people go and just take pictures.
04:40 It's like, it's so bizarre to me to see tourist say,
04:44 "Can I take a picture in front of a prostitute
04:46 or in front of this building or whatever."
04:48 But in this particular area there was none of that
04:50 because it was...
04:52 These were small children
04:53 and a lot of people don't want to be seen in that environment.
04:55 So we end up getting there late at night.
04:58 I'm realizing this is probably that that we are so unsafe,
05:01 we are so much in danger.
05:04 I really put everybody's life at risk
05:06 and I start praying, "God, I'm so sorry."
05:08 And I was really frightened not only for myself
05:11 but for them at that moment, and I don't know where...
05:14 We were staying at this place
05:16 called Fountain of Life Ministries.
05:17 I don't know where it's at.
05:19 There's not street lights in these small villages.
05:21 I mean it was just like it was, I was just afraid,
05:24 and I start praying,
05:26 and all the sudden this woman comes out.
05:27 She's 20 or so and she comes out this girl
05:30 and she just starts going like this.
05:32 I don't speak Thai.
05:33 She's going like this
05:35 and she's walking backwards into this like alleyway
05:38 and I'm thinking there's no way,
05:39 they're gonna find us cut up in there, right.
05:42 And I'm thinking, I'm not following her,
05:43 everybody is looking at me for direction,
05:45 and I just felt somehow this kind of pressure
05:49 pushing us in one direction and we followed her
05:52 for a block and a half, I mean into nothing.
05:55 I mean it was so ridiculous into this nothing.
05:58 And as we turned the corner, there was a sign that said,
06:01 Fountain of Life Ministries.
06:03 And I almost started crying.
06:04 You know when you're so relieved,
06:06 it's like all this and you're just so relieved,
06:08 I almost started crying and I turned around
06:10 just to say thank you so much and she was gone
06:15 and I thought shut up, shut up.
06:17 What if God is real? What if He intervenes?
06:21 What if He does care about us?
06:23 And no matter where we are in that journey in our life,
06:28 how twisted things have gotten, and when I talk about twisted,
06:32 there was temples in this area
06:35 that they would bring 11 year olds from Burma
06:38 to sleep with people that were dying of AIDS,
06:40 and the theory was that if you sleep with a virgin,
06:43 you could be healed from AIDS.
06:44 These kids were riddled with AIDS
06:46 by the time they died at 15, 16 years old.
06:49 So when I talk about darkness and all that kind of stuff,
06:51 it was so crazy,
06:53 but the reason I wanted to start with that story,
06:55 for one, just the grace of God that says,
06:58 you know what, I am right there with you.
07:01 And if you give me half a chance,
07:03 whether you are buying or selling,
07:05 I will change your life, and I will bring healing.
07:07 But pornography and all that kind of stuff
07:10 from the time I first started years ago to now,
07:13 it's a different game.
07:15 It's a different game.
07:16 And so I want to introduce, you know, Donald and Janelle.
07:20 Thank you for joining us on the program,
07:22 and we're gonna, we're gonna talk about your story
07:24 and all that, but I want to say,
07:26 that now years later
07:29 people are hooking up and they don't...
07:32 They're sexually involved
07:34 and some folks feel like I can jump into porn
07:38 and be famous and it's just a way into this world
07:41 or, you know, it's so prevalent
07:44 that it's not anything to actually be ashamed of.
07:47 And Jeremiah says, you know what?
07:49 There are some of us that have forgotten even how to blush.
07:53 And so on that note, I want to introduce you
07:55 and don't jump right into that but who are you,
07:57 where did you come from?
07:59 And, Donald, can we start with you?
08:00 Sure, sure, my name is of course, Donald Owen.
08:02 I'm raised in Michigan, raised in a sort of
08:06 floundering Christian family Baptist here and there,
08:10 it's kind of traveling around...
08:12 Do you want me to get into the whole...
08:14 or we start with pornography, looking at pornography.
08:17 Yeah, because with you,
08:19 I mean from the time you were little
08:20 that was just part of your world.
08:23 Yeah, about the age of let's say, 13,
08:25 14 my brother like to take things from stores
08:29 and he took about 11 magazines, adult magazines and came back
08:33 to our little Chevy in the backyard.
08:35 It was probably about seven or eight of us young boys
08:36 and we were, you know, flipping open magazines
08:38 and seeing some stuff that was really degrading
08:41 and very shameful, just amazing.
08:44 But that's not what you thought at the time.
08:46 No, no.
08:47 And even, even what's really interesting
08:49 because I've been brought into elementary schools
08:51 where people are sharing on their,
08:53 on their smartphones images and things and laughing
08:57 and even doing kind of, you know,
09:00 like they're going to search the internet
09:02 as far as cartoon characters
09:04 and come up with some pretty twisted stuff.
09:06 Oh, yeah. Yeah.
09:08 And it's a game initially.
09:10 And I also remember two that at age,
09:13 popular music television came out
09:16 and there was just,
09:17 you could see the racy kind of images
09:20 and things that really attracted.
09:21 For me, young man, it really attracted me
09:24 and it really hooked me.
09:25 You were hijacked. Oh, yeah.
09:27 Yeah, you know images
09:28 that plant in the back of your brain.
09:30 They stay there and you just want more and more
09:32 and actually had a neighbor that I was really addicted to.
09:36 I mean, I was so on like in lust with this woman,
09:38 I just did everything I wanted to be with her,
09:41 and she's a married woman, I was a kid, I didn't know.
09:45 I just, I was addicted. Yeah, heavily.
09:47 Just everything I thought of her constantly.
09:50 So what's really interesting is because, you know,
09:53 I'm talking about another country
09:55 and see the areas but you're talking about a...
09:58 Neighborhood A neighborhood.
10:00 Like a, yeah, white picket fence
10:01 kind of neighborhood
10:03 and it's just, it spiraled from there
10:04 just kept going further and further down
10:06 and got into a sexual chat online.
10:10 When internet came out, it wasn't like it is now
10:12 and will pop up and everything but it was,
10:14 I was on three four hours a night talking with people
10:16 and it just kind of got into sexual chat with
10:19 I think were women, I have no clue but...
10:21 And another, when you talk about that
10:23 is that even from the time
10:27 that you started experimenting with that
10:29 is that they really have online sites or apps for people
10:34 just to go in, jump in, jump out
10:36 and almost your trail is gone immediately.
10:39 You can find out who you can hook up with
10:41 or who you can be with within 50 miles of your phone.
10:45 And we're in our, your mind get so distorted
10:47 what really is love and you mistake it with lust,
10:50 and we have no clue anymore what love really looks like
10:52 in an intimate relationship it's really distorted,
10:55 for myself it was,
10:57 I'm still to this day trying to figure out, you know,
11:00 what does an intimate relationship look like.
11:03 Did anyone notice that all this and you're online all the time,
11:06 you were withdrawing
11:08 because there was a lot of things
11:09 that somebody around you if they were tuned in,
11:13 they could have picked up on.
11:14 College no, because it was kind of,
11:16 like our whole period after school
11:18 we could go and work on the computers
11:20 and I was there for three four hours
11:21 and guy let me in and we stayed there as buddies with him
11:23 but when I went to work,
11:25 I carried into the workplace, yes.
11:27 They saw me, they realize I was doing something
11:30 and like you said trying to cover your tracks,
11:32 I was going on vacation and so I decide,
11:34 I need to delete some things, I didn't know I was doing
11:36 because of the shame and fear for what they would think
11:39 and I deleted stuff I weren't supposed to
11:42 and destroyed their computer.
11:43 I came back and they said, "I'm sorry.
11:45 This just isn't working. You're fired."
11:47 But my co-workers saying,
11:48 look, they know what you're doing,
11:50 you need to quit.
11:51 I said, I will quit and I kept trying,
11:54 I just could not and it got further and further
11:56 and I was trying to beg them to give me work
11:58 so I keep myself preoccupied
12:00 so they're doing, you know, stuff,
12:02 so I just went further and further.
12:04 So can you talk about what it feels like
12:06 because I think that when someone says,
12:08 "What do you mean addiction?
12:09 I mean why don't you just not do it at work."
12:13 So you can talk about that pool of addiction.
12:15 It's kind of you're filling a void,
12:17 it's like a high almost.
12:19 I guess you could call it a high.
12:21 That you're just trying to get off, I don't know,
12:23 pun intended but yeah,
12:24 you literally you get off on it.
12:26 It's just something that you real need
12:27 to go to other person like,
12:29 you know, sensing the same thing I am,
12:31 you know, how, what are they doing
12:32 and try to visualize in your head what's going on.
12:35 You know, you can see all kinds of images
12:37 racing through your mind
12:38 trying to think what are they doing so...
12:40 So, so with you being lost in that
12:45 because I know that eventually, Janelle, you guys meet.
12:49 What's your background
12:51 and did you have the same struggles
12:56 or the same interest as him?
12:59 Yeah, similar, actually it's kind of weird
13:01 how that worked out but I was about ten
13:04 when I first viewed pornography.
13:06 I found a video tape
13:07 and it was actually some music videos of my father's
13:11 and at the end of it there was this scene on there
13:14 and I think all my siblings were in there with me.
13:16 My brother my sister and were like,
13:18 "What was that?"
13:19 And then I found myself
13:20 watching it again over and over.
13:22 With nobody in there.
13:23 Yeah and, and so that was ten years old
13:27 and so I mean kids you know find stuff
13:30 and it can trigger that, you know,
13:32 that just the desire to want to see it again,
13:36 but for me actually I think maybe I was 12
13:40 when that happened because even before that,
13:43 I had been exploring with masturbation
13:45 and that continued since age ten
13:47 till you know until God brought me out of it.
13:50 And so that something...
13:52 We hate, you know, and society at large,
13:55 they will let guys have sexual addiction, but girls,
13:59 they don't really like us to be anything but pure.
14:00 Right, you're supposed to be perfect and prim and proper
14:02 and all this, you know,
14:04 and it's like no, but yeah, it's...
14:05 But even saying it out loud
14:06 because I work constantly with people that struggle
14:09 and women and pornography, women in sexual bondage,
14:14 it's really tough because even to say it out loud.
14:17 We don't want to say it out loud.
14:19 We do want to be all that and we want to have all of that
14:22 but you're saying is finally, I'm done hiding.
14:25 I'm done being ashamed. Right
14:27 And we're gonna talk about why you can do that
14:30 because I just so admire you.
14:32 But you're saying from the time I was a kid,
14:35 I'm lost in this.
14:38 And did you, did you have a sense
14:42 when you said, these were my dad's videos,
14:44 did you have a sense of.
14:45 And I'm saying this not to make anyone feel guilty,
14:48 but when we're raised in the sexualized environment,
14:52 kids will get twisted and they don't know
14:54 why they'll say no, I wasn't touched.
14:56 I wasn't molested.
14:58 But the people around us were very sexualized.
15:01 Yeah, that was definitely the case.
15:04 Talking about you being pretty
15:05 or you know I like the way your body is growing
15:08 and all that kind of stuff and,
15:11 you know, something was said that wasn't right
15:13 but I don't know what it is.
15:15 Yeah. Yeah.
15:16 And I think for me it was just seeing those images too
15:21 and you know images stick in our minds
15:24 and it's really hard to get those out,
15:27 only by God can we erase those things,
15:29 ask Him to take it away and still there are scars there
15:31 and there's still things that we can't get out
15:34 but, you know, I really don't think
15:37 my parents even realized it,
15:39 you know it was there if they had left it for us
15:42 to find, you know,
15:43 it was just something that they said,
15:45 and I think they recorded over something as VHS days.
15:48 And so they had recorded over some stuff
15:51 and then there was this at the end
15:52 and it's like, whoa.
15:54 But I think
15:56 my mom was probably totally oblivious to it
15:58 but my dad, you know,
16:00 I think he might have known at some point...
16:03 Did he ever talk to you? No.
16:05 Not about that,
16:06 and there were some issues with them.
16:09 And, you know, I've talked to others before about this
16:11 and so it's not like it's the first time,
16:14 but my dad had some issues with, you know,
16:16 going cheating on my mom and this and that and stuff,
16:19 you know, a lot of different times
16:21 that that happened.
16:22 And so there was that
16:25 and so that was kind of you know another sore spot
16:27 and you know as far as my parents,
16:29 and so I was hearing these things, you know,
16:32 when they would have arguments or whatever
16:33 and talking about, you know, you did this
16:35 and I'm hearing, you know,
16:37 different people he had been with,
16:39 even people that I knew and stuff
16:41 and so it was kind of...
16:43 So even with your parents you're hearing sexualize stuff
16:47 or sexual stuff but not them as a couple separately.
16:52 Dad's cheating on mom...
16:53 Oh, well, no, not never together.
16:56 I would hear them have arguments
16:58 and things like that
17:01 and then I would find out later from different sources
17:03 that, you know, hey,
17:05 I heard this you know about your dad or whatever,
17:08 and so it was kind of second hand,
17:09 but I kept hearing it.
17:11 And so it was like, you know, sometimes you have to take it
17:13 with a grain of salt what you hear and you don't,
17:15 you know, not everything's always true
17:17 but when it's coming from different sources,
17:19 it kind of made me wonder, you know,
17:21 and so, and honestly
17:23 I've not talked to my dad about this before,
17:27 but it's really been tough.
17:30 You never talked to him yet?
17:33 You know that is gonna be
17:35 a really incredible conversation
17:38 because sometimes we don't want to talk
17:40 and we're fearful of talking.
17:42 But even now you're saying
17:44 I don't know how I would do that.
17:45 What makes you tear up about that?
17:47 What are you thinking?
17:52 just a lack of I guess respect for family.
17:57 What it would do to us,
17:59 how it would shape our futures and still lot of hurt,
18:06 and I think in some ways I was afraid to confront him with
18:09 because I didn't know how he'd react.
18:12 Would you still love me? Would we still be okay?
18:17 Scary stuff. Yeah.
18:21 Thank you for sharing that because what's really crazy
18:23 about early addiction especially, sexual addiction
18:26 is we use our addiction to help us survive or cope.
18:33 It's a stress thing.
18:34 Some people go in and just eat,
18:36 some people start workaholics
18:39 or they're academically they push into that,
18:42 but when we literally start using our sexuality
18:45 to help us cope, it is, we get hijacked on every level.
18:50 And what you're saying is that whenever I believe
18:54 what you said to me, if this is right.
18:55 Whenever you felt stressed,
18:57 whenever you felt out of control,
18:58 whenever things were flowing apart,
19:00 you could go to this place and be okay.
19:04 And I think I did look at it
19:06 like you said it's a stress reliever.
19:07 You know the masturbation stuff and it was just like
19:10 I didn't really seen anything wrong with it.
19:12 It's just like, okay, well,
19:13 if it's gonna makes me feel better,
19:15 sort of stress reliever.
19:16 And I think it's so important too
19:18 to realize how much that is really now it's encouraged
19:25 to kids to do this stuff,
19:26 you know, like sex-ed classes and stuff like that
19:29 encourage kids to masturbate because it prevents disease
19:32 and all these different things you should love yourself...
19:35 Yeah, love your body, love yourself
19:37 and it's like that's not, I mean you should love yourself
19:40 but through God and not because you're...
19:43 I've seen the term self abuse and that's what it is,
19:46 you're abusing your body so...
19:49 So you end up getting into a place
19:53 to where that you're lost in the same way
19:58 almost as him just different.
20:00 You can go in your head,
20:02 I think have you ever explored the difference
20:05 between sexual addiction with women
20:08 and sexual addiction with men,
20:09 have you guys looked at that...
20:12 just very minimal if anything, not much so, yeah.
20:15 It used to be a huge cavern, you get the women,
20:19 for one we are more into
20:22 kind of that intimate connection
20:24 and our fantasies are really kind of different
20:27 and men it's the image they look at,
20:30 they feel that kind of stuff it's very visual.
20:33 Now, the divide is not so much there anymore,
20:37 so it really is disappearing.
20:39 That's kind of reversing the roles now,
20:40 you see that women are becoming more
20:42 in the kind of man's role
20:43 and the man's becoming more in women's role,
20:45 it's kind of reversing, that's happening.
20:47 So that's why you see all those transgender
20:49 and decisions, you know,
20:50 they're not happy with my sex who I am
20:53 and sex is really confusing and somebody had told me,
20:55 they mentioned that now we're gonna start doing
20:57 a burst of his memory
20:58 when you don't have male or female
21:00 when you're born so you can choose later
21:01 what you want to be.
21:03 There's total confusion
21:04 and total like inside identity crisis.
21:06 Really is, you know, we don't know who we are
21:09 and why we're here
21:10 and we search for something to fill a hole,
21:12 fill a gap that, you know, feel better at heart.
21:15 So you guys end up in high school,
21:17 in college and then I love the fact then, then you meet.
21:22 And to me I just think sometimes, you know,
21:24 we forget that we walk into a relationship
21:27 and we bring in all of this stuff
21:29 into the relationship.
21:31 So when you met, did you meet in college at work?
21:35 You know, we met over at were she worked at a place called
21:38 Bank-One now placed in lower Kentucky.
21:40 I went down over with a group of guys
21:42 to inventory her bank Y2K...
21:46 Oh, that's crazy, a crazy time.
21:48 And we actually were going to banks was interesting
21:50 as the guys who were younger
21:51 and they said there's no good looking women,
21:53 you know, in any of these banks and I ran into her office
21:56 and I saw her and went, I said, okay,
21:59 so I ran back to the guys.
22:01 They all came running down are like puppy dogs
22:04 tongues practically hanging out.
22:06 A manager actually told me said,
22:07 "No, I'm gonna take the other room,
22:09 you take the room across, I'm taking this room.
22:10 So it kind of hit from there and she invited us to club
22:13 and so went clubbing and yeah...
22:16 So you guys liked each other. No?
22:21 No, you're saying no.
22:23 Oh, yeah, he know this so,
22:25 well, when we first met,
22:31 I was not looking for relationship just,
22:34 you know, just having fun and I was in college
22:37 and so I thought oh, there's some guys,
22:39 you know, we can go to the club with
22:41 and so I called my friend, you know,
22:43 I told there's these four guys I think it was four in town
22:46 and so, you know, think it would be fun
22:50 if we just went to the club and just hang out with them,
22:52 get to know them, and so we went out
22:55 and I think that was Phoenix Hill or something
22:58 at that time but anyway, we stayed out the whole night,
23:01 I had to give a speech the next day
23:03 and we stayed out I mean all night
23:04 like till four in the morning.
23:06 I had like 45 minutes of sleep that night.
23:08 I had to give a speech the next day...
23:10 In the bank.
23:12 No, at the college that was going to
23:13 how to give a speech the next day
23:15 and it was the worst speech I've ever given.
23:17 I mean I almost fell asleep in the middle of the speech
23:19 in front of everybody, it was so embarrassing,
23:22 but anyway so, so we...
23:24 I think he was in town for a few days.
23:26 So we went out again and we just,
23:29 there was some chemistry there but I think,
23:31 I thought that he was younger than me
23:34 and I didn't want to date a younger guy
23:36 and he's actually older
23:39 and so at first I wasn't like immediately attracted to him.
23:43 But he grew on me a lot
23:44 because of his personality and so...
23:46 He's pretty funny. Yeah, he is very funny.
23:50 But I think at first too I was kind of confused
23:54 if he liked me or my friend,
23:56 and so I was kind of like, you know,
23:58 at that, yeah, and so
24:00 I was kind of getting a different vibes from him
24:02 like, I wasn't sure if he liked me or her
24:04 and so we just kept in touch and eventually we ended up,
24:11 he moved down to Indiana where I was living at the time.
24:14 And I think we've known each other just a few months
24:16 when he moved down here
24:17 and so we lived together for ten years
24:20 before we got married.
24:21 And it was that pretty quickly after you moved down
24:24 that you guys decided to move in together?
24:27 Five or six months.
24:28 Yeah, five or six, I get tired of the extensive phone bills,
24:30 I'm like this got to stop.
24:32 We talked almost every night on the phone and...
24:34 My parents brought me the other house to, you know,
24:35 of course so, I was probably 22 or 23 at the time.
24:38 Yeah, so I decide to move in with her.
24:42 I almost actually lost my job because of her
24:44 because she was working for a bank
24:45 we are not supposed to date clients
24:47 and my manager is like that is a big no, no,
24:49 but she was actually a temp.
24:51 So that's kind of...
24:52 Little hope. Yeah.
24:54 So, I'm gonna go ahead and take a break
24:56 because I know that this next part
24:58 as I don't want to kind of interrupt
25:01 once you guys start talking about
25:02 your journey together as a couple, your addictions,
25:05 what kind of turn that took for you.
25:08 And my favorite part is how did you get out of it.
25:12 So we're gonna be right back if you are interested,
25:17 and it's just an incredible miracle.
25:19 Does God...
25:21 Is God able to change our very desires?
25:22 It is so amazing.
25:24 Our very desires He actually says,
25:25 I can change and all the stuff
25:28 that you put in your head that has twisted you,
25:30 He can untwist it if you allow Him, it's amazing.
25:34 We'll be right back.