Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Richie & Timari Brower
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000133B
00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to addictive behavior.
00:05 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:06 may be too candid for younger children.
00:13 Welcome back.
00:14 You were talking about marriage
00:16 and we're talking about healing in the end,
00:18 you know, a lot of us come, I know that I did,
00:21 came from such a really wounded dark place
00:24 and I step into a relationship
00:25 and we believe if I can only love or be loved,
00:29 all of that goes away
00:31 and you guys have been talking about that today,
00:34 is this that and that was your belief,
00:36 is that once I fall in love, once I have a partner.
00:39 Even, Richie, when you said that a little while ago,
00:42 everything in you said, I will never be alone again.
00:45 Everything changes
00:46 and what you found out is that's not true,
00:49 all of this stuff just come up to the surface.
00:52 So I can start it all over again and, you know,
00:55 the story didn't stay there.
00:56 Fortunately, we wouldn't be here talking today
00:58 but I was such a blind contributor.
01:02 Cheerfully blind,
01:04 I would say willingly blind...
01:05 Wanting to be blind.
01:07 Oh, yeah, because it's much easier for me
01:09 to see the fault in her and none in me
01:12 and that played out in some pretty ugly unfortunate ways.
01:16 I remember specifically,
01:18 one time as Timmi was starting to meet with her mentors
01:22 and starting to get a new vision of what
01:23 a healthy relationship looked like,
01:25 she started to say thing like, you know,
01:27 "This can't all be me."
01:29 And I remember looking at her and my response,
01:32 out of my chosen blindness
01:33 and my zero compassion score,
01:35 all of those combining,
01:37 my response was to her to say,
01:38 "You know, I can see
01:40 how it would be really difficult for you
01:42 to accept the responsibility for the chaos of our marriage,
01:45 after all these years,
01:46 I can see how that would be hard for you to carry that,
01:48 why you want to transfer some of that blame to me."
01:51 Notice the compassion on his face right now.
01:53 But even when you say that 'cause, you know,
01:55 but you were saying,
01:57 "As a man of God, I wanna enlighten you.
02:00 This is you."
02:01 Yes, honey, let me tell you how it is.
02:03 "Got it now.
02:04 I've got this figured out it's still you."
02:05 It's you.
02:07 This is your problem. Yeah.
02:08 So as he's speaking,
02:09 you know in your heart of hearts,
02:11 this is not true anymore.
02:14 You're having hope for the first time.
02:16 Maybe, it is not about only me and maybe,
02:19 we can actually work this out
02:21 but somebody does that
02:23 and what is the first feeling that you have?
02:25 What do you wanna say? And don't lie to me.
02:29 I will not lie to you. All right.
02:31 Well, I would say, I mean, truly as he's saying,
02:33 there was confusion rising, so I'm like,
02:35 wait a minute and there was, I mean,
02:37 I was starting to speak back in ways,
02:41 I was still,
02:42 I had to learn to be respectful.
02:44 You know, tactful occasionally,
02:46 but there was I guess a inner fortitude
02:50 that was rising of...
02:51 This is not on me.
02:52 This isn't on me and I'm not gonna act,
02:54 like I'm okay with it being that it is and I think,
02:57 I started getting angry...
02:59 up till that point I would say, Richie had been angrier.
03:02 But that started a season of me being more angry too.
03:05 It's like, "No, I'm not gonna take this anymore, actually..."
03:09 And I have to say 'cause a lot of times people will say,
03:12 I've had people that have come over my house
03:14 and we've just spent a week together just, kind of,
03:17 processing some other stuff.
03:18 But I have people that come over and they say,
03:20 "Well, if I get angry, is that rebellion?"
03:22 And it really isn't.
03:24 It's like being able to say that,
03:25 for the first time in your life,
03:27 somebody needs to be angry for this child
03:29 and confront those lies and say, not anymore.
03:33 And that is, kind of,
03:34 a seed of healing even though
03:36 it doesn't sound like it at the time.
03:38 Yeah. Yeah
03:39 Or feel like it. It doesn't feel like it.
03:41 Especially to you. That's right.
03:42 You're like, What happened to my sweet little wife
03:45 and why are you saying this to me?
03:48 She's talking back to me all of a sudden.
03:49 'Cause clearly...
03:50 I'm the spiritual leader of the house...
03:52 That never happened before.
03:53 I think something that we've learned even recently
03:56 about anger though,
03:57 is that anger is a God given emotion
04:00 for the purpose of righting wrongs,
04:03 it's about injustice,
04:05 where it gets confused and mixed up is,
04:07 when it rises in me
04:09 because I'm feeling that
04:10 an injustice is being done to me
04:12 but that's not necessarily what's truth,
04:14 and the lies I'm believing are wrapped up in that.
04:17 That's where anger gets really destructive, you know,
04:20 but anger for the purpose of justice,
04:23 is I think, I mean,
04:25 that's what Jesus did in a temple.
04:26 It was, this is an injustice of what they were doing
04:29 to His Father's house
04:30 and that's why His anger wasn't sin
04:32 but ours is not usually...
04:35 Quite as righteous. It's not righteous.
04:37 And I think that, you know, for us.
04:39 I know for me, a lot of...
04:42 might be for both of us,
04:43 the anger that came up was very self protective,
04:45 you know, very...
04:47 "I'm not gonna be stepped on any more"
04:49 kind of, an attitude.
04:51 And that while maybe, maybe, better than the alternative,
04:55 maybe not.
04:56 It's still not that I would say, I'm partly...
04:57 Like better than the silence
04:59 It's still dysfunction. Right.
05:00 It's just a different side of maybe,
05:02 a similar coin and so...
05:03 But for a lot of people including yourself,
05:06 it definitely is a stage not to be afraid of.
05:10 You know, be careful and in the stage,
05:12 even as I'm listening to you guys.
05:14 It's like...
05:15 it's really incredible to have God to journal to
05:18 or go back to and say,
05:20 'cause I remember there were times
05:21 that I was so angry
05:23 and I was so looking at Brad in his arrogance,
05:25 at times, in his own issues at times
05:28 and just journaling with God
05:29 and I would start out those journals horrible,
05:31 like, no, no, no, no, no.
05:33 And by the time
05:35 He worked with me through the Holy Spirit.
05:36 I was saying, "Okay, how can I be hurt by him?"
05:39 So it really is, don't be afraid of it but don't...
05:42 you've got to step into that stage.
05:44 So you're right there.
05:45 You're starting to look at the injustice.
05:47 You're starting to say,
05:48 " Hey, this is not all about me."
05:50 Did he hear you at all?
05:52 Did you hear me at all? No.
05:55 I knew that was gonna be the answer.
05:56 It's like, "No, not at all."
05:58 No, total push back for me.
06:01 And like I already said, you know,
06:02 I can see why, you know,
06:04 this would be a heavy burden for you to carry
06:06 the responsibility of what you're
06:07 bringing to our marriage.
06:08 That was really my posture for a couple years...
06:13 But you are bringing the chaos in that house.
06:15 Yeah, but because I wouldn't back down.
06:17 It actually escalated the war in our home
06:22 because I wouldn't just go,
06:24 "Okay, fine" and go back to my corner anymore.
06:27 I said, "Nope. It's not on me."
06:28 And so then Richie's anger started getting higher too
06:32 and that found us in a pretty difficult position
06:35 'cause we were both pretty angry.
06:37 All of this while we're both in full time ministry.
06:41 So all of this is our reality,
06:42 while we were putting on our happy face
06:44 and I'm standing up to preach
06:45 or she's going to serve women at the shelter.
06:47 What I wanna say to both of you is,
06:49 I'm sorry that you didn't find enough people
06:52 that you could just be honest with.
06:53 I pray that's changing,
06:55 that we start to be able to talk to each other
06:57 and I know that you found mentors.
06:59 But, you know,
07:00 I wanna say even to somebody that's breaking denial
07:02 and there are some incredible men
07:05 that I know that had to go through exactly
07:07 what you had to go through,
07:08 is that as they're breaking denial
07:10 and seen all that kind of stuff.
07:11 The anger does escalate
07:13 'cause they wanna control everything,
07:14 they wanna contain everything.
07:16 If it's out of control,
07:18 am I gonna be left by myself again?
07:19 What's gonna happen?
07:21 What are people gonna think about me?
07:22 What about my ministry?
07:23 I mean, all of that kind of stuff
07:25 and we just try to fight to control.
07:26 Right. Yep.
07:28 And what you're finding out, in this crazy time,
07:32 is that didn't work.
07:33 No, no. It didn't.
07:34 So what worked?
07:36 'Cause something eventually worked.
07:37 Well, I think, you know,
07:39 what worked for me was, you know,
07:42 we've talked previously about the mentors
07:44 and starting to take at my own journey and look at,
07:48 where's the saying you're coming from
07:50 and looking at my story
07:51 and walking back into my story
07:53 and connecting with that and saying,
07:54 "Oh, that needs to be grieved, I mean, that's sad."
07:58 And so I need to take time to be sad
08:00 and grieve these elements in my story.
08:02 There were tragic and as I've done that
08:05 and I'm not done...
08:07 So let me just go back and somebody will say
08:09 and they've said it to me a number of times is do we,
08:12 do I have to go back to my past and relive that stuff?
08:16 And I wanna say, you're past, you're dragging that right now,
08:19 this is not your past. It's in every pocket.
08:21 You know, it's destroying every relationship
08:24 and so I don't think we ever have to go back to our past
08:26 but if we're dragging that anger with us every day.
08:29 That fear, that loneliness, that contempt,
08:31 all of that kind of stuff.
08:33 God says, "I can't even teach you about love
08:36 because you have this stuff that you're dragging."
08:39 And there's amazing research, you know,
08:41 brain research that talks about like,
08:42 our limbic system.
08:43 It knows no past or future.
08:45 Everything is present tense in our limbic system.
08:47 So when we're triggered by something that happens
08:49 relationally or trauma or whatever,
08:52 it's all right now.
08:53 And the same thing,
08:54 other research showing that our body remembers,
08:57 our body carries memories, so none of it's past,
09:00 it's all with us and it comes out
09:01 as physical maladies,
09:04 it comes out on relational brokenness...
09:06 And even when you say that, when I said,
09:08 Brad's breath on my face and neck,
09:10 all of the sudden,
09:12 I'm three years old and being molested, right?
09:14 So when you say, your body remembers.
09:17 And God says, you know what?
09:18 When you bring that stuff to me,
09:20 I promise you,
09:22 I will bring healing
09:24 but give it the time and energy that it needs.
09:27 You can't skip the work.
09:29 Right. No, no.
09:31 So it's really connecting the dots
09:32 in the storytelling and getting in touch with my own story,
09:35 our stories, that for me,
09:38 the anger began to come down
09:40 and part of that was definitely going to God in prayer,
09:43 changing the way I prayed for me...
09:45 The way you spoke to her?
09:46 Yeah, well, I'd prayed for eight years,
09:48 that God would change to me.
09:52 And my mentor said,
09:53 "Hey, why don't you pray
09:55 that God will teach you to love her well?"
09:58 That was like a new idea and again,
10:00 another prayer that God's excited to answer
10:02 and so that's how the journey began to change and the anger
10:05 for me was beginning to connect with my story and say,
10:08 "Oh, when she does this,
10:10 it reminds me of when I was a little boy and this happened"
10:13 and that's connecting there.
10:14 And as I made those connections,
10:16 the power started to come out of the stories
10:17 and the anger started to come down.
10:19 And the lies...
10:20 the lies start to change. That's right.
10:23 We will be destroyed by the lies
10:25 that we tell ourselves,
10:27 until we believe the truth and then the lie is voided out
10:30 and so it's like,
10:31 I think I love the fact that when you said,
10:33 "When I started looking at my own stuff,
10:35 when I started to love her well."
10:37 That whole paradigm shift.
10:38 I'm shifting and you started to feel that shift.
10:42 It's not about you anymore, it's not your fault anymore.
10:44 Yeah, and I think,
10:45 part of that is choosing to be on each other's team.
10:48 You know, because we can blindly trigger each other
10:52 and just, kind of, be indifferent about it.
10:53 Well, just stop it.
10:55 Well, I can't just stop it.
10:57 You know, and, you know, for Richie, he tells,
11:01 in other show he told about a story about his mom
11:04 just leaving for long periods of time...
11:06 After she threatened to kill herself.
11:07 Right, exactly.
11:08 Well, there are times martially,
11:10 I don't really wanna be in his space.
11:12 And so my desire is to just leave the house.
11:16 Well, what's that gonna trigger in him and so but then,
11:20 it's how do we balance our needs
11:21 'cause the reality is,
11:23 I do need to get away from the space we just created
11:26 and he needs to know in his heart
11:29 that I am not leaving him.
11:31 And so we know we've had times where I will say,
11:34 I need to leave.
11:36 I will be gone for X amount of time
11:39 or whatever, you know,
11:40 but I'm not leaving you.
11:43 where this is not a re-enactment
11:44 of your childhood.
11:46 I need to take a walk.
11:47 I'm coming back and, you know,
11:48 and that kind of thing
11:50 and I think that's ways that we can be...
11:51 when we start knowing each other's stories...
11:53 That's powerful. It is.
11:54 Because I know his stories well enough to know that
11:57 I never wanna step into that space
11:59 and cause that little boy, pain.
12:01 No, not to the place of denial
12:02 or enabling or any of those things but,
12:05 I mean, there's ways I can go about things
12:07 that don't have to include hurting him.
12:11 Even when you're saying that, is being able to,
12:13 at one point say, "Can I care about that,
12:15 that what happened to you?"
12:18 And then can we step into our relationship.
12:21 So I can't change it. I can't pay for it.
12:23 I'm not your mom.
12:25 But I do care about that and I love you saying that
12:28 'cause we cannot disconnect each other
12:32 from the reality of our lives
12:35 but I can be aware of it.
12:38 And something that I think like,
12:39 that I learned,
12:41 that made a difference for her is
12:42 as we were starting to learn new tools is,
12:45 I get angry, things that happen,
12:46 I still get angry lot of time but I've learned...
12:48 Your default is. Yeah.
12:50 And I've learned though that
12:51 if I get angry and leave
12:54 and don't talk to her
12:55 and then come back and act like nothing happened.
12:56 That's destructive.
12:58 But if I say, "I'm feeling angry,
13:01 I need to take a walk.
13:02 I'll be back in 30 minutes and we'll pick this up."
13:05 She knows I'm not leaving. I'm coming back.
13:06 We have an appointment
13:07 and I'm not gonna slip it under the rug.
13:09 I can go, talk to God and pray
13:11 and complain about this woman He's given me
13:13 and come back,
13:15 with Him having spoken to my mind and say,
13:17 usually, you need to go, listen to her
13:19 or whatever and we start at a whole different place
13:22 but that was a skill that began to take the energy out
13:25 of the fights,
13:26 for me and for her
13:28 as that was a way I can minister...
13:29 And even when you're saying that,
13:31 is that she's from a divorce home.
13:33 Everybody's gone their own way
13:34 and she goes from place to place
13:36 and everybody acts like nothing happened.
13:39 So for you to act like, in her own home,
13:40 for this pattern to follow her,
13:42 it's almost like both of you would just be screaming inside.
13:46 "I can't live out this pattern for the rest of my life."
13:49 So when we decide to do the work,
13:51 when we decide to love each other well.
13:53 When we decide to get the tools
13:54 and stay present and care about each other.
13:57 It's almost like those wounds get to heal finally.
14:02 Well, it's kind of a rewiring of the building, you know,
14:04 we've got this in building that has been, you know,
14:08 through both fault and no fault been wired poorly
14:11 and now we bring it into marriage
14:13 and it's sending up sparks all over the place.
14:15 You know, when Richie says,
14:16 I'm really feeling defensive and angry right now
14:19 and I will be back in half an hour.
14:22 And the first time he did that,
14:23 I went "What was that?"
14:26 Because, I mean,
14:27 that wasn't part of our dynamic,
14:29 that's not part of our cycle.
14:30 He goes, you know,
14:32 frustrated out the door
14:33 and I'm left stewing in my own juices
14:35 and we come back and tiptoe around each other
14:36 for a few days and then,
14:38 "Okay, enough time is gone by.
14:39 We'll act like everything's good."
14:41 So when he left saying, "I will come back,
14:43 I want to reengage this with you
14:45 but I'm not doing it productively."
14:47 And then he did and I could,
14:48 you know, we as wives,
14:50 we can sense the space our husbands are in it.
14:53 For Richie, there's a usually a scowl right there.
14:55 If he's frustrated and, you know,
14:59 he came back in, that particular time
15:01 and his face was calm and he said,
15:05 "I don't think I've heard you yet.
15:07 Would you please start..."
15:09 Oh, shut up. I know...
15:10 That is still sweet. No, I was floored.
15:12 I know. I was like, wait a minute.
15:15 Is this is a trick? Exactly.
15:16 Actually, that was part of my question but,
15:20 you know, I could sense that it wasn't,
15:22 he was the gentlemanly asking, you know,
15:25 "Can you tell me again 'cause I didn't get it."
15:28 And I'm like, and, you know,
15:30 when he came so humbly like that,
15:32 it takes all the fire out of me.
15:34 I don't feel the need to shoot him up
15:35 because he's coming, you know,
15:37 humble actually.
15:38 He actually wants to hear you. He does.
15:40 And I think that when we started doing that,
15:42 that's one thing, you know, doing our own work,
15:45 our story work and then giving each other space
15:48 but with a timeline,
15:50 so that we would come back.
15:52 That was really helpful.
15:53 That's amazing.
15:55 I wanna get back to this
15:56 but I know we have some incredible people at the cafe,
15:58 that probably have some questions for you.
16:00 So I wanna say, "Man, what do you think?"
16:03 And can we start here, with you, Christina,
16:08 and do you have any comment or question,
16:10 there you have for our guest?
16:13 I come from a broken home too.
16:15 My question for you guys...
16:17 your determination to stay together is so strong.
16:21 Do you believe that's
16:23 because you came from broken homes,
16:26 both of you,
16:27 you don't want to repeat that pattern,
16:28 so you're determined no matter what,
16:30 you're gonna stick this out and make it work?
16:33 It's a great question, Christina.
16:34 I think we've asked ourselves some times.
16:38 Where did that come from?
16:39 And I don't know that we know the whole answer.
16:42 We made some commitments before we were married.
16:45 We said we will never use the D. word in our home.
16:49 And I think we've pretty well stuck to that
16:52 but there have been times,
16:53 when sometimes me, sometimes Timmi,
16:55 you know, we've gone, "I don't know.
16:58 I don't know if I want to take anymore."
17:02 And I think for me at least,
17:08 that determination comes from a couple of places.
17:11 God keeps calling me back
17:13 to right here is where you need to be for my growth.
17:17 I need to stay in a relationship
17:18 with this woman
17:19 because that's who God picked to help me grow up,
17:23 And the people that I have around me,
17:28 do not give me a pass and so I am,
17:31 I personally am supported by men who will say,
17:34 "So what's your part in this again?
17:36 And how are you gonna love to me while through this?
17:38 And that builds or buttresses my commitment
17:43 when it may lag for me, personally.
17:45 And I love when you say that and Christina,
17:48 I love the question
17:50 because there's a lot of times
17:51 where we have to make those commitments with each other.
17:54 I'm gonna grow through my relationship with Brad
17:58 and I don't wanna run.
17:59 I don't wanna run.
18:01 He doesn't wanna run and so many times,
18:03 it would be easier to do that,
18:04 it would be easier to just say,
18:06 you know what?
18:07 We made a mistake and head out of the door
18:10 but I really believe that there is a God above,
18:12 that says, you know what?
18:14 I can actually get you through that
18:15 and I'm not talking about somebody
18:16 that's in obvious abuse,
18:18 being beat, you know,
18:19 having that all that, kind of, craziness,
18:21 get yourself into a safe place
18:23 but I'm talking about most of us.
18:26 God says, "I can work with that."
18:28 You know, I know that you have a question.
18:32 I've been in a dating relationship
18:33 for a little over a year
18:35 and I was wondering
18:36 what advice you would have for someone
18:38 in my situation, me personally,
18:40 I wanna know for myself
18:42 but specifically on the issue of connection.
18:46 I like the partner story
18:47 where you guys said you really connected a lot
18:48 while you were dating,
18:50 you've dreamed together
18:51 and things like that but then it,
18:53 kind of, stopped,
18:54 when you got married and I just want to know
18:56 like how do you start that process
18:59 when you're dating
19:00 and to know how to put, you know,
19:02 have it better when you're married to connect?
19:05 Good question.
19:07 That's a good question.
19:08 I think, you know,
19:09 finding ways to play together is really important
19:12 from a bonding standpoint.
19:14 You know, we sometimes take that for granted.
19:16 I think, you know, of course,
19:18 we are going to do things together but,
19:19 you know, really intentionally,
19:20 find ways that build your relationship
19:22 that are just playful
19:24 because that will be something to help carry you,
19:26 even from a neuro biological standpoint,
19:30 it releases oxytocin
19:33 and other bonding chemicals
19:35 and as you go into marriage,
19:37 when the times get hard
19:38 and there's stress and adrenaline,
19:41 having that platform or foundation of connection
19:44 chemically as well as actionally,
19:47 really, really helpful
19:49 and then choosing as you get married,
19:51 you know, remember, how we used to do that?
19:53 We liked that.
19:54 We need to do that even
19:56 if you don't like each other so much at that moment,
19:58 to choose to do it anyways
20:00 'cause it kind of brings some of that fun
20:01 and connection into the hard times
20:04 'cause every relationship is gonna hit
20:06 hard times period.
20:08 And so to have tools already in place especially,
20:11 if you're intentionally saying, we're building this tool,
20:13 so if we ever get married someday,
20:15 we'll have it in our tool box.
20:17 I think that's a really important thing to help
20:19 maintain a connection for the long haul.
20:21 And we really have people around you too,
20:24 when you play,
20:25 especially if you're dating, play as a group,
20:28 get some young adults or folks around you.
20:31 And Brad and I, we do road biking,
20:34 we play golf and we ski together.
20:37 You know, all of that kind of stuff
20:38 and I didn't realize this
20:40 until I actually started to work
20:42 with couples more and more, that part of...
20:44 for men, they feel connected
20:48 definitely, intimately,
20:49 when we're in that intimacy but when they are playing,
20:53 when you are doing sports
20:55 and I had to find out from Brad.
20:56 We get a bike and I'm thinking, "How fun is this.
20:59 We could ride and talk and whatever
21:01 and he's thinking 'talk,'
21:03 we're doing, you know,
21:05 we're going from pole to pole to see how fast we can go
21:07 and we're gonna try to do these,
21:09 we did a hundred miles around like...
21:11 We wanna do it in this amount of hours and I'm thinking,
21:13 we're gonna talk and every time I talk,
21:15 he gets irritable.
21:16 So even find out how your partner plays
21:19 'cause they're gonna play different than you.
21:21 So it's a communication, it's just such a big thing as,
21:24 "Who are you? Who am I?"
21:26 And every once a while,
21:28 when I make sure that we're doing,
21:30 you know, trying to get our fastest time.
21:32 There are times that Brad will look at me and say,
21:34 "Let's just ride and talk and I'm like, look at you."
21:38 I love you.
21:40 But it is that learning to communicate.
21:42 Yeah, it is. You bet.
21:44 I was thinking too that, you know,
21:46 if it's not natural for you already
21:48 to have some of these big dream conversations,
21:51 then do it unnaturally
21:53 but make a habit of sharing your dreams together.
21:55 So you're gonna write down, I mean, do you know...
21:57 I mean, obviously,
21:59 some of these questions would be more appropriate
22:01 in different phases of your relationship,
22:03 say if you're engaged.
22:04 I mean, do you know
22:06 what he thinks about a big family
22:08 or small family?
22:10 You know, how do you want spirituality
22:13 to look like in your life?
22:14 How do you want career and family to interface?
22:16 Have these conversations about what life is about.
22:19 What's important and make that a habit
22:21 that you carry on into marriage.
22:23 And that keeps you dreaming forward about
22:25 what life could be
22:26 in this beautiful vision for life together
22:28 because that vision might carry you through
22:31 some rougher spots,
22:32 when it's not like you were hoping it would.
22:34 And, you know, you talked earlier about, you know,
22:37 there are times that red flags come up.
22:40 Don't ignore those,
22:41 if you get a red flag and that flag says,
22:44 "You know what?
22:45 He wants to be single and live in, you know,
22:50 this part of the world and I want to have three kids
22:53 and settled in this part of the world."
22:56 That's a red flag and you guys have to really process that.
22:59 I loved when you guys talked about, you know,
23:01 about the red flags.
23:03 We just cut the top of that flag off,
23:05 so we didn't even see him anymore.
23:07 You bet.
23:08 And, you know, there were red flags
23:10 when we were dating.
23:12 Large ones actually,
23:13 and we actually didn't entirely ask the right people.
23:16 We asked people who...
23:17 we said, you know, "Hey, should we get married?
23:19 What do you think?"
23:21 You know, we had people speaking into our lives
23:23 but we didn't actually ask our friends,
23:25 who actually did lie with us
23:27 and there was several times where people in our peer group,
23:32 as opposed to older peers.
23:35 You know, who were like,
23:37 what are you guys thinking?
23:40 You are doing bad stuff to each other.
23:41 You guys just clash like nobody's business and I'm like,
23:44 "Oh, but when we make up.
23:46 It's good." Right.
23:47 Yeah, not the best pattern.
23:50 "No, what do you know?"
23:51 And we really,
23:52 I know there was at least two friends,
23:54 I dismissed them out of turn and said,
23:56 "You just don't know the beauty that we create
23:58 when we're doing good."
23:59 Which was true, when we were doing good,
24:01 we were doing really good
24:02 but when we were doing bad, we were just awful.
24:04 And so...
24:06 Painfully so.
24:07 Yeah, and I should asked better questions of them
24:09 and think, "So what do you see?
24:11 What's it like?"
24:12 And actually taking in what they said,
24:14 instead of just dismissing them and saying,
24:15 "Yeah, what do you know?"
24:17 And that was like
24:18 the cutting off of the red flags.
24:19 So I love what you're saying is that, you know,
24:21 put a lot of people around you,
24:23 get that input from them
24:25 and even saying that, "Man, I am so glad,
24:30 you guys didn't run from each other."
24:32 'Cause what you give now is very real
24:35 and it's very intense.
24:36 So, you know,
24:37 we're kind of coming to the end of our time together
24:40 and so I want you to talk about
24:42 what is the coolest things that have happened in your life
24:49 as you have been more respectful to each other.
24:52 Allowed healing to happen,
24:54 dealt with anger and contempt
24:56 and all those kind of things.
24:58 What are some of the richness in your life because of it?
25:01 You know, one of the things that I think of, you know,
25:06 several years into the turn around
25:08 as we call it,
25:09 I realized that, you know,
25:11 my greatest desire was to have connection and intimacy
25:15 and not be alone or rejected
25:18 and I realized through all the work
25:20 that we've been doing,
25:21 there was such incredible connection.
25:24 Emotional, relational connection
25:26 and I thought, "Wow!
25:28 This is, I mean,
25:29 there were still challenge of the physical intimacy
25:32 but I literally said,
25:33 if you never got any better than this.
25:35 I'm a happy guy
25:37 because I feel so connected to you emotionally
25:39 and this is great stuff," that was a high day to realize,
25:45 something amazing is happening here."
25:47 And even for...
25:48 as you're speaking,
25:50 I can see that little boy in you saying,
25:52 you know, I'm not gonna be alone.
25:53 I'm actually gonna feel what it feels
25:54 like to be loved in this life.
25:58 That's you. It's a miracle.
25:59 I think the other thing is realizing
26:01 that we really fight for each other
26:03 and we still fight each other.
26:04 True 'cause we're human.
26:05 'Cause it gives and that's the truth.
26:07 It is the truth.
26:08 You know, on bad days.
26:09 I just have to not be ashamed
26:11 to even call you up as my friend
26:12 and say, you know what?
26:13 Brad and I are just at each other.
26:15 Can you spend some time with us?
26:18 I don't have to be ashamed of that anymore.
26:20 No, no,
26:21 and but to realize that
26:24 we're fighting for each other like,
26:26 so there's been times where we are not seeing eye to eye
26:30 and instead of going, "You are my enemy going.
26:32 No, we have an enemy and he is not gonna win here."
26:37 You know, and sometimes that only that
26:39 one sentence is what's needed...
26:42 To switch things around and go,
26:43 "I don't like you. You are not my enemy."
26:46 And then to switch that,
26:47 so that we know we're on each other's team.
26:49 We had a classic example of this just recently,
26:51 you know, we've made a lifelong commitment
26:54 to keep working on growing our marriage.
26:56 So, I mean, so we still have a counselor
26:58 and we work with her regularly.
26:59 So let's look...
27:01 I wanna stop and say, let's come back to that
27:02 'cause we're gonna come back for the close.
27:05 I'd like you guys to join me.
27:06 I think that what you're gonna say
27:08 right now is gonna be so important for us to hear.
27:12 So stay with us and we'll be right back and man,
27:16 you do have an enemy but it's not each other.
27:18 I love that.
27:20 We'll be right back. Stay with us.