Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Richie & Timari Brower
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000132B
00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to addictive behavior.
00:05 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:06 may be too candid for younger children.
00:13 Welcome back I love, you know,
00:16 I got to say both Richie and Timmy,
00:18 what I love about who you are and your ministry
00:21 and what you bring is that you are so real
00:24 and for whatever reason you made a decision
00:26 somewhere just to be that.
00:28 We talked before the break
00:30 about your journey from childhood
00:34 and then how difficult that was
00:36 being adopted by a family
00:38 that kind of taught you
00:39 a little bit more about relationships
00:41 and the people that mentored you.
00:42 When you guys met how crazy that was
00:45 even though you wanted the kind of happy ever after
00:48 and the sunset on the beach
00:50 and all that romantic intimacy
00:52 that didn't happen for you
00:53 in the first year was not that easy.
00:55 So we're right there in the first year
00:57 confused stepping into ministry
00:59 trying to figure out, you know,
01:02 what do we do now?
01:04 So talk a little bit more about that?
01:06 It was, you know also
01:08 we're figuring out the pastoral ministry part
01:11 but it's sometimes a lot easier for me
01:13 as a guy to figure out the work side of my life
01:15 than to figure out the relational side of my life
01:17 and that's pretty much what I did...
01:18 I know how to do.
01:20 I can figure, I can do this,
01:21 but I don't know what to do here.
01:23 And so we keep trying
01:24 to figure things out relationally
01:26 and even sexually and it just,
01:28 it go up in flames over and over.
01:30 For a guy that's a pretty big deal.
01:32 It says a lot about, you know,
01:34 how much of a man am I and all these things
01:36 and so there's a lot of connecting
01:39 to other parts of my story.
01:41 I'm rejected again, I'm abandoned again,
01:44 I'm not enough again. Here I'm alone again.
01:47 And so that vow that I had made,
01:49 I'm never going be depended on anybody
01:51 starts surfacing
01:52 and for me came up is lots of anger,
01:55 explosive anger about whatever.
01:57 And we don't even know...
01:59 When you said that,
02:00 I don't think that as a woman
02:02 we have any idea when men can't
02:05 or don't connect sexually
02:07 when somehow there's a rift in there,
02:09 every single thing that you define yourself
02:11 by is affected
02:14 and we don't know who to ask.
02:16 Nobody talks about that stuff.
02:17 That's right. Yeah.
02:19 So there we are and so
02:22 basically we were three and a half years
02:24 in this district
02:26 and into our marriage and saying,
02:27 you know this isn't working
02:29 and somewhere in that time we reached out
02:30 Timmy did I guess really to a counselor
02:33 for the first time
02:34 and said, man, we got to do something,
02:37 but we really didn't get any traction there.
02:40 So that's just like, Timmy,
02:41 what's really interesting about that
02:43 and I don't know about you,
02:44 but I come into a church that didn't believe in counseling.
02:49 So and I'm crazy ass, right.
02:52 So I'm thinking,
02:53 so if you don't believe in counseling,
02:54 where do I go.
02:56 But what you are saying is that my pain level was so high,
02:59 the disconnect was so high, I had no choice.
03:02 And so even for people
03:04 that are struggling with that part of the story
03:06 is find somebody that's Christian,
03:08 find somebody that you believe their journey
03:12 and sit down in front of them
03:14 and just start talking
03:16 because we need each other.
03:18 We do and especially
03:19 pastoring is a very isolating position
03:22 because and I was 21 when we got married,
03:24 two weeks into 21 and I mean I was a baby
03:27 and we were in such a beautiful district.
03:30 You could not have asked for more nurturing kind people
03:33 that we had the privilege of ministering to,
03:36 but we didn't know where you're supposed to go,
03:39 what you're supposed to do, like I said,
03:40 we only tried the doctor route you know.
03:42 If things aren't working physically then you, you know,
03:45 you go to a doctor.
03:46 You know, well, there's nothing wrong.
03:47 Okay, well...
03:50 So what's the next stop?
03:51 And you do want to get on the platform, excuse me,
03:52 but how is your sex life?
03:55 It's a weird way to start a sermon.
03:57 Or end.
03:59 Or end,
04:00 it's like being able to say there are things that
04:01 nobody really talks about and so you're saying,
04:04 you know what,
04:05 we're not going to survive
04:06 unless somebody actually starts to talk to us.
04:09 And so I did seek someone out merely
04:14 because I had no idea who to talk to
04:16 and I was actually ironically
04:18 really against counselors as well,
04:20 because only weak people go to counselors,
04:23 missing the point
04:24 that I was actually in school to become one.
04:27 There was a disconnect there.
04:30 But, and I was really concerned that after,
04:33 you know, I think I saw her
04:34 seven or eight times.
04:36 It didn't fix everything.
04:38 Can you believe it?
04:39 That's too funny.
04:41 No, it was not funny.
04:42 No, you look at as we expect that,
04:43 wait, I just paid you,
04:46 I should feel fine.
04:48 And, but,
04:50 and we may have seen her more
04:51 but we were moved to a new town
04:54 in a different state to pastor a new congregation
04:57 and so we went in there going, okay, well,
05:01 everything's falling apart but we've been moved.
05:03 So we're going to keep doing the Lord's work
05:05 and we'll figure it out as we go.
05:07 But when we were pastoring to begin with,
05:10 Richie was one of three pastors in a three church district.
05:14 So it was pretty cushy from a pastoral standpoint
05:17 and now we're moved up to a different town
05:19 and we're church planting.
05:20 It's only us, we don't even have a church
05:22 that's sending us out,
05:23 and so it was us with the other couple
05:26 and their baby who joined us.
05:28 And we're going to save the world
05:30 for Jesus by ourselves.
05:33 And both of us, both of us from our stories,
05:36 I think are tempted towards isolation and going,
05:38 I'm tough enough, I can do this.
05:39 I don't need anybody.
05:41 I don't need anybody else,
05:42 I can just, I can figure it out.
05:43 I'm smart enough, I've read enough books.
05:45 We will make it happen.
05:46 We have a huge library of books,
05:51 but soon we find ourselves church planting
05:54 and the pressure increased exponentially
05:59 and we still don't have the resources,
06:01 we still don't know what to do
06:03 and so fast forward a few years and...
06:05 So and you're talking about it
06:07 and so that as we're trying to grow intimately as a couple,
06:11 as we're trying to figure out who we are as a couple,
06:14 all of this other pressure is overwhelming.
06:18 And what we tend to do and I don't know
06:20 if this is true in your case is we tend to say,
06:22 okay, I'm going to put,
06:23 I'm going to keep in my hand
06:25 what feels good and I feel confident with,
06:27 everything else gets pushed in the closet.
06:30 Yeah, we certainly went
06:31 our own directions in that, you know,
06:33 I started working at a homeless shelter
06:34 for women and children.
06:35 Everything I did turned to gold there,
06:37 they loved me,
06:38 and they served three meals a day,
06:40 so I never have to come home.
06:41 They even have showers if it comes to that,
06:44 and so I just kind of shifted my life,
06:46 I was in graduate school at that point
06:47 working full time internship, practicum,
06:49 worship leader on the weekends...
06:51 Ministering to these women.
06:52 Yeah, and...
06:54 but we were church planting too,
06:56 I mean so I was leading a small group for the church
06:58 and I was worship leader and,
06:59 I mean so, I just kind of shifted,
07:01 I'm like I can't make this work.
07:03 I can't make him happy.
07:04 I'm not going to try anymore.
07:06 And so I just shifted my life somewhere else
07:08 and he was more than occupied with the church plants
07:10 and so...
07:12 So you could jump into all those tasks
07:13 and do them very well,
07:15 so both of you just started doing.
07:19 We went years,
07:22 now we're talking about a span of years
07:24 that we work on this church plant.
07:25 And we weren't winning an intimacy,
07:27 we weren't building
07:29 closer connections relationally,
07:30 we weren't growing, we were going apart,
07:32 so the opposite of oneness was what was happening at home
07:36 and our church plant grew.
07:38 We grew from two couples
07:40 to over one hundred people attending.
07:42 And so, you know, it looked like success, right.
07:45 But we were hemorrhaging and then it came to a place
07:50 and the breaking point and also the turning point
07:53 was when I took a sabbatical,
07:55 three months sabbatical
07:56 from pastoral ministry, yay and...
07:59 Well, yay unless you're Timmy, it's like three months,
08:02 we're going to have to hang out with each other.
08:04 Oh, no, we didn't hang out,
08:05 we did quite the most restful things
08:07 we could do was build a house from scratch with our own...
08:09 With our hands. Oh, no no.
08:11 'Cause isn't that a restful thing to do on a sabbatical?
08:14 You must be related to my husband.
08:15 I'm probably.
08:17 So we're not...
08:18 we're not the wisest people you've ever interviewed,
08:20 I'm just telling you, so we take a break
08:21 and we build a house,
08:23 so we start building a house
08:25 and when we come back from our sabbatical,
08:26 we find that our church plant
08:28 has dropped in attendance by half
08:31 because we had some other key leaders
08:33 who got sick like they went on a mission trip,
08:35 got this some nasty disease and never came back,
08:38 so they lost their pastor and wife
08:41 and this these other two really
08:42 important key members of our team
08:45 and the church was just imploding.
08:46 And so we tried to bail it out.
08:48 We worked with our leadership
08:50 and tried to figure out
08:51 and it just would not be turned around,
08:53 it was going down.
08:54 Couldn't be resuscitating.
08:56 And at the same time our marriage was going down
08:58 and so we literally came to a point
09:00 where we agreed that Timmy would go away
09:03 because at this point we're still saying
09:05 that Timmy is the issue,
09:06 Richie is still perfect.
09:09 You know, and it's really interesting
09:12 because even when you say that,
09:13 most of us do fall for those lies.
09:15 We really do think it's one or the other,
09:18 if it wasn't for you would be okay,
09:20 but I want to say one thing as you are going in the story
09:23 that I'm always wowed by God 'cause he's brilliant.
09:27 Let's have them build a house from scratch.
09:30 Do you know what I mean 'cause he's right there
09:32 saying the things that you're going to learn.
09:33 Somebody feels like God wasn't there
09:35 and now he is going to be there,
09:36 God was there the whole time.
09:38 So now you're looking at each other.
09:40 You're going to get sent where?
09:42 I mean, where did you send your wife?
09:44 You sent her to intensive counseling
09:45 to get her issues fixed.
09:48 That's what you do.
09:49 And we both agreed because we...
09:51 'cause in his defense
09:52 we both thought I was the identified problem
09:54 because my issues were a little more blatant
09:57 I would say than Richie's
10:00 'cause Richie was still perfect at that point.
10:01 Well, Richie and Richie thought he was
10:04 but actually there had been evidence to the contrary...
10:08 We did show up...
10:10 Indeed it was showing up
10:11 and actually during the building process
10:13 we had some conflict amazingly.
10:15 And Timmy had reached out to a really important mentor
10:19 who'd been a part of now
10:21 he'd saved our marriage before we got married,
10:23 a whole another story,
10:24 and we worked with him on some of our marriage issues.
10:27 And she said, you know,
10:29 Richie and I are having this issue.
10:30 She called him, I didn't know this.
10:31 So we're framing our house
10:34 and I get a phone call early in the morning,
10:35 we're just starting the job that day,
10:37 and our friend Gary is on the line
10:39 and he says, Richie, can we talk.
10:40 And so I walk away from the job site
10:42 and Gary says, now we've worked with him
10:45 in the counseling type role, right so...
10:47 He's a pastor
10:48 who is very, very good at seeing people.
10:52 Amazingly gifted and he says, Richie,
10:55 I've been talking with Timmy
10:56 and based on what she's telling me
10:58 and what I've seen,
10:59 you are spiritually and emotionally
11:01 abusive to your wife
11:03 and it needs to stop.
11:06 He was pretty direct.
11:08 Now, fortunately he didn't just say,
11:10 did you get all that and hang up.
11:13 But you know what?
11:14 I've got to say when we love each other enough
11:16 that I'm not going to back away from that,
11:18 it's what I'm saying to you is I love you
11:20 and I cannot not say that.
11:22 That's right. That's right.
11:24 So you knew that he cared about you.
11:25 You know that he's not slamming you.
11:27 But how did you receive that, is like are you kidding me?
11:31 Well, I remember
11:32 our property was kind of two tiered property.
11:34 We had some cliffs that drop down
11:36 and I'm sitting on top of these cliffs
11:37 looking down in the woods talking to Gary,
11:39 tears running down my face,
11:41 and so he said those really hard things right up front,
11:42 and then he said.
11:44 Richie, God's not done with you.
11:45 He sees gold...
11:47 Amen, amen.
11:48 He sees gold in you but this has to stop.
11:51 And there's a book that I loved,
11:53 it was one of my favorite things in ministry
11:55 but the book was called Caring Enough to Confront.
11:58 And so, you now to me, if this guy was here,
12:01 I would kiss him on the face
12:03 'cause he probably handed you your life.
12:05 Now I'd like to say
12:07 that after being confronted that directly
12:09 that everything changed.
12:10 I know 'cause wouldn't we are.
12:12 When we all like to say that.
12:14 You had your own moment of light.
12:16 I'm a slow learner
12:17 so fast-forward a couple months,
12:19 only couple months from that
12:20 to now Timmy is going away
12:21 because we're still, Richie is still saying.
12:24 All right, so what I took away from the conversation was,
12:27 oh, things are worse than I had thought.
12:30 That's how far I was moved with that conversation and not,
12:33 not things in me are worse than I thought,
12:34 just things are worse than I thought.
12:36 And you were open to the idea
12:38 that you might possibly have something to do
12:40 with the marital issues you were having.
12:41 Perhaps may even not likely.
12:44 I had read those 13 books.
12:45 So he had the right words to say, he did,
12:47 he had more words and words are valuable
12:49 but they don't always lead to action.
12:50 So I left
12:52 and one of the things that happened
12:54 while I was gone
12:55 working with some really neat Christian women and...
13:00 So I don't want to get past that too much
13:02 so you stepped out and started pulling
13:05 and support from other woman.
13:08 I already had some support.
13:09 I had an accountability at home,
13:11 some ladies at the homeless shelter
13:12 and I to the other staff and I started meeting together,
13:16 just to kind of learn what does it mean to love well,
13:18 how do we be in relationship.
13:20 What is it?
13:22 Basically how do we love well is what it came down to
13:25 in our real nitty-gritty of our lives.
13:26 We knew everything...
13:28 I mean after meeting for a while.
13:29 You know, we knew everything
13:31 that was dark and difficult
13:33 as well as glorious and beautiful in each other
13:36 and they really showed me a different way to love.
13:40 They were actually the reason that I started realizing,
13:43 this can't all be just me because it takes two to love.
13:46 And so if and they really modeled for me
13:50 in such beautiful life giving ways,
13:53 what love is supposed to be.
13:55 They started setting a new template
13:57 because I was able to look at the relationship
13:59 I had with them.
14:00 And just how we cared for each other and I went,
14:03 wait if that's love, this isn't.
14:05 Right, I'm not feeling that at home.
14:07 We're calling love is some strange amalgamation
14:10 that isn't it.
14:11 And so, but that didn't,
14:13 wasn't received super well when I brought that home.
14:15 You know what we're doing isn't love,
14:17 excuse me and it really didn't...
14:19 Well, I just pointed out that
14:21 it's clearly her issue
14:22 so if she wanted to have love here,
14:24 then she just needed to keep working on her staff.
14:26 Yeah, she wasn't being able to receive it.
14:28 You don't know how to give it,
14:29 you don't, can't even identify it.
14:30 So in your mind as a man and I have to say that
14:33 because we laugh at that but that's,
14:35 it really is what some people believe.
14:38 And what God has to say is I've got to,
14:40 I've got to get over both of you,
14:43 your conception of what this is
14:46 because you will not be able to love each other
14:48 until you surrender this to me.
14:50 So you're saying a little bit of support,
14:52 I love the fact that you have a male calling to you
14:56 in a mentoring way.
14:57 You've got people that are walking alongside of you
15:00 but you're still not looking at each other.
15:02 Not so much and so while I was gone,
15:04 one of the things that became clear to me is that
15:07 I had these women that I was walking with and,
15:10 you know, good things they were beautiful mirrors to me.
15:13 Oh, you've got some dirt right there.
15:14 Okay, I mean, now I can do something about it
15:17 because I know about it.
15:18 And Richie was very convinced that he didn't need any help.
15:21 He was really pretty great.
15:22 And so one of the things I said,
15:25 I said I am ready to come home.
15:27 And I will not come home
15:29 until you are in an accountability
15:32 relationship with another man
15:34 and he had,
15:35 he had our almost two year old at home with him.
15:37 He was very motivated for me to come home.
15:42 You know our marriage was challenged,
15:43 our church was imploding,
15:45 and he had a toddler on his hands
15:46 and I wasn't there.
15:48 And so, we had some friends over right
15:51 before I had left
15:53 and the man had offered himself to Richie and said,
15:56 he said, you know Timmy can do
15:58 all the counseling she wants
15:59 he said but Richie you are the key
16:01 and so, you know, if...
16:05 just saying that we had it,
16:06 it was going to come down to us,
16:08 it wasn't going just being out there.
16:09 And when he says, Richie, you are the key,
16:12 how did you take that?
16:14 I hated him. Yeah.
16:15 And we do.
16:17 Yeah, because... We got to hear it.
16:19 What I heard him say,
16:20 he said, Richie, you're the key.
16:22 What I heard him say was Richie, it's your fault.
16:24 And I was already convinced that our church plant
16:27 collapse was my fault.
16:28 So my fault plate was fault, so I turned him out,
16:31 I didn't want to hear anything he had to say,
16:33 but then she's on the phone,
16:35 she puts a relational gun to my head and says,
16:37 I'll be home when you have accountability.
16:38 There's only one person in my world
16:40 who has offered.
16:43 It's my friend Jerry,
16:44 who I now call Jerry the jerk...
16:46 And he knows. And he loves that, yes.
16:48 'Cause he knows he's not going to tell you
16:50 what you want to hear.
16:52 He is not, no...
16:53 You need to hear this. That's right.
16:54 Jerry is retired Air Force and he's very focused,
16:58 he doesn't miss things.
17:00 Pretty intense dude, so I called Jerry
17:04 and I'm sure I sounded really enthusiastic and I said,
17:06 "Hey, you still interested in getting together" and he was.
17:10 And so about eight and half years ago,
17:15 Jerry and I started meeting
17:16 and this is where the turnaround began
17:18 when I started meeting with him.
17:20 So we met for two and a half to three hours every week,
17:23 and have done that pretty much
17:25 for the last eight and half years.
17:26 Even the amount of time that you said,
17:30 that this person is spoken to your life
17:32 that I'm not going to call you up
17:34 every once in a while or drop a text on you
17:36 is we are going to seriously be in front of each other,
17:39 what an amazing thing.
17:42 So talk a little bit about what he offered you
17:46 and how important was that
17:48 because you had a paradigm shift,
17:50 everything in your world had to shift.
17:51 That's right.
17:53 So obviously we went lots of directions,
17:56 you know, in all these conversations
17:57 hundreds and hundreds of hours
17:58 we spent talking at this point but...
18:00 And I could hear you, yes, but, yes, but...
18:02 Oh, yeah.
18:03 No, it's her but I only come in some weeks
18:05 especially in the beginning he said,
18:06 "Do you know what that woman did to me?"
18:09 I took a picture of it.
18:10 Yeah, you should see this,
18:12 and he was just calm
18:13 and basically the agenda every week
18:16 for all these weeks has been and it hasn't changed
18:19 how to be a godly man and how to live our wives well.
18:22 So whatever story I came in with her
18:24 or something was happening in our church plant
18:26 as it was going downhill and eventually closed.
18:29 A lot of relational carnage there caused by me
18:32 in part he just bring so,
18:34 so how would Jesus respond in this situation?
18:38 What does it mean to be a godly man in the situation?
18:40 That's still what he's saying to me,
18:41 and he's still holding up that mirror and I look,
18:44 I look at him just a few weeks ago and said,
18:45 that's why we call you a jerk.
18:48 And because what he offers to me is a place
18:53 where number one,
18:54 I don't get away with anything,
18:56 he's going to call me on my stuff
18:57 and he says, let's look at your part in this.
18:59 Because he cares about you.
19:00 Because he cares about me and I know I can say anything
19:03 and he's not going to think less of me,
19:05 and I know that he's 100 percent
19:07 in favor of my marriage
19:08 so no matter what I say about this woman,
19:10 he's going to be in favor of our marriage
19:13 rather than taking a side.
19:16 Even as you say that because, you know,
19:18 I had to put people in my own life
19:19 to work with Brad and I and to bless us.
19:22 I know that I made a mistake
19:25 if that person talks badly about my husband.
19:27 That's right.
19:29 And so, when you said,
19:30 when somebody is going to come in,
19:31 they have to be for you too, you are one flesh.
19:35 This is not about trying to convince me
19:37 that he is wrong or I'm right
19:39 or any of that silliness.
19:40 This is about teaching us to love one another,
19:42 so I love the fact that Jerry said,
19:44 I'm going to keep you right there.
19:46 Yeah, so, in fact we tell people,
19:48 we say, look, you know,
19:49 if you bring someone in to work with you
19:50 and they take sides,
19:52 they're either not spiritually mature enough
19:53 or they're not professional enough
19:55 and you gonna lose him.
19:56 And you really do that should be a red flag
19:59 when somebody you know Proverbs said something
20:01 that it got me early on in my recovery is
20:04 be aware of the person that winks a eye at you.
20:07 Beware of the person that flatters you
20:09 because fluttering is not going to grow me.
20:11 You know, I'm not going to do any good
20:12 if I walk around feeling all right
20:14 and my marriage is falling apart.
20:16 I need someone that's going to be real to me.
20:18 So Jerry, it sounds like not only gave you the time
20:21 but literally spent time with you.
20:22 And so now, I have to say, Timmy,
20:24 there's a point when you're looking at
20:27 what Jerry is offering him and the time spent.
20:30 When did you start to believe
20:32 that he actually was starting to get it?
20:34 Oh, it took a few years...
20:37 But why wouldn't you say that.
20:39 Somebody says, oh, couple of sessions, get out.
20:41 No, get out, please get out.
20:44 Yeah, and we had a place too.
20:48 You know, we've had stints of good behavior
20:50 before where anger wasn't an issue
20:52 and we were working together pretty well
20:54 but then something happen...
20:56 She what was going to find.
20:57 Yeah, me and that pneumatic hammer
21:00 and then something would happen
21:02 and the cycles of anger and withdrawal
21:04 and just our crazy cycle would start again.
21:07 And so, you know, I had my accountability group,
21:09 Richie had Jerry.
21:10 But we also need a place where we could talk together
21:13 and so there was another couple
21:16 who we had interacted with and we approached them
21:19 and said, we're just going to be really honest,
21:22 we are saving the world and falling apart and so would,
21:27 you know, would you and your husband be willing
21:29 to just walk with us and be a safe place
21:32 for us to talk together with the two of you
21:34 and try to kind of figure out what it is to do live
21:37 because we're not doing it well,
21:38 and at this point,
21:40 you know, we have our firstborn child
21:42 and we don't want to teach him
21:43 that this is what love looks like.
21:45 We don't want to set that template.
21:46 This is what ministry looks like,
21:47 this was a real because it's everything.
21:49 This is what a relationship with God looks like
21:52 and you're saying, man, I'm down,
21:53 I can't, I can't let this be passed on.
21:56 Right, and so I talked to her,
21:59 she talked to her husband they came back and said,
22:01 what does every other week sound good.
22:05 And about every other day
22:06 Yeah, but I think every other week sounded pretty intense.
22:10 So we started meeting with Tim and Stacy
22:13 every other week
22:14 and they pretty much adopted us for a year,
22:16 we spent holidays in their home
22:18 and what a typical evening would look like,
22:21 we would go over on whatever night it was,
22:23 I don't remember now
22:24 but we would have dinner with them
22:26 and then we just all kind of talk their kids
22:28 who were teenagers
22:29 and then one or both of their kids
22:31 would take ours downstairs to play
22:33 and then we just kind of be talking about
22:35 what really had happened in the last few weeks
22:38 and be like, you know,
22:39 when you drive in there and you're like,
22:40 what do you want to talk about.
22:42 I don't know what do you want to talk about.
22:44 You know we both knew the things
22:46 that needed to be talked about
22:47 but it's so hard to come before someone and say,
22:50 here is the very true and ugly of me.
22:54 Are you going to like me anyway?
22:55 And what I love about mentoring and being real and figure out
22:59 how to do this is we've got to,
23:01 we've got to put that person out there,
23:04 when I get the ugliest,
23:05 this is what I look like,
23:07 and we've got to say please don't judge me.
23:09 This is not about whether I love God,
23:11 this is not any of that, I don't even know
23:14 why this person comes up but he comes up.
23:16 And so I love the fact that you're brave enough that says,
23:18 you know, even on the way over there,
23:20 you're trying to look at each other
23:21 and say please say that nicer
23:23 because, you know...
23:25 Please don't reveal me quite that much.
23:27 Exactly, exactly.
23:28 And I would say
23:30 we got relationally naked with these guys.
23:32 We didn't pull our punches we didn't try to hide.
23:34 I mean of course we did, but I mean,
23:36 when it all came down to it, we didn't.
23:38 I mean we,
23:39 they really saw the glory sides of us
23:42 and what was really beautiful is they completely normalized.
23:46 I mean sometimes we would like tell this horrible story,
23:48 this horrible conversation we'd had and we'd be like
23:51 oh, you remember that time we did that...
23:53 Me too. Oh, my goodness.
23:55 And we're like,
23:57 oh, you mean we're not evil.
24:00 We're the only ones.
24:01 We're the only ones and they're like,
24:03 yeah, but here's how,
24:04 here's what God taught us through that
24:06 and they just basically shared their testimony
24:08 of different things,
24:09 and they taught us some skills and stuff
24:10 because they were farther down the marital road than we were
24:13 and they...
24:14 but they were a couple who had really
24:16 from everything we had seen,
24:17 they had chosen to grow through their conflict instead of...
24:20 It's incredible.
24:22 They didn't try to hide it. They didn't try to minimize it.
24:23 They said...
24:25 They empathized with you. Oh my goodness.
24:26 Yes, and...
24:28 And what is amazing is that we ended up
24:30 because we recognize we're in crisis right,
24:32 we're bleeding out and so we call this the I.C.U.
24:35 phase of our marriage.
24:37 And so we had this mentor couple.
24:39 Timmy had her group, I had Jerry.
24:41 We were spending collectively six to ten hours a week
24:45 during this phrase working on ironing out
24:47 what was broken in our relationship.
24:50 You know,
24:51 and I'm gonna go ahead and break
24:52 and we're going to come back for close
24:54 because I can't believe we've run out of time.
24:55 Luckily we're going to do another program with you guys,
24:58 but I want to, I want to say,
25:00 I so admire the fact
25:03 that you guys that are pulling whoever,
25:06 I mean after you guys started working,
25:07 it looked like you pulled in,
25:09 whoever is going to be real enough to help us.
25:11 And so we're going to take a break.
25:13 If you are relationally bleeding,
25:16 look around you because there will be someone
25:18 that you can pull in,
25:19 there will be somebody that gets that.
25:21 You know, you can read a book,
25:22 you can do all of that if you want to
25:24 but it's not the same as having somebody
25:26 right in front of you, being that mirror.
25:28 So we're gonna be right back with Richie and Timmy Brower,
25:31 and we're going to talk about
25:34 where they are at now
25:35 and I want them to tell you something.
25:38 So stay with us.