Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Angelia Waite
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000126B
00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to addictive behavior.
00:05 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:06 may be too candid for younger children.
00:12 Welcome back, you know, if you missed the first half,
00:16 we're talking about to a couple,
00:19 Jay and Angelia
00:20 that one day everything's different.
00:26 You walk into the backyard, Angelia, and your son,
00:30 your baby is in the bottom of the pool.
00:33 And, you know, you talked about that
00:35 and your other son having to jump in,
00:39 he just couldn't breathe and how that happened
00:41 but you know Jay, there was one point
00:43 where you were called at work.
00:48 I was on my way home and I had to pull up
00:51 to a stop sign and the stop signs
00:54 and square side of my house, it was not a corner lot,
00:56 but I could plainly see there's no trees
00:58 or anything right there.
00:59 And from where I am ten cars back
01:01 in some traffic going through a four way stop
01:05 I could plainly see there's a helicopter in my side yard
01:08 and it's right in the half way in the grass over there
01:10 next to the Baptist Church, and I realized suddenly
01:15 that there my whole house was a bevy of activity.
01:18 There was a lot of people at my house,
01:19 and I did not understand it but I...
01:22 just like she said, it slowly turns in you
01:25 where you realize.
01:26 I didn't know what would happen but something bad had happened,
01:28 and I commenced to honk the horn
01:30 and try to race around people and I finally got through,
01:33 couldn't pull in the front yard
01:34 because there was a fire truck in the front yard,
01:36 drove through the ditch, pulled up beside somebody...
01:38 So this is not that somebody called you
01:40 and you were prepped for this,
01:42 is it you were on your way home?
01:44 That's right, I showed up in the middle of it
01:46 while it's still kind of happening.
01:48 And what I see is there's an ambulance there
01:52 and I pull up into the front yard.
01:53 And I found that my son had drowned from some young lady
01:57 who worked with the first responder
01:59 and she ran by I said, "What has happened,"
02:01 and she just looked at me and she goes,
02:03 "It's a drowning."
02:04 And that's how and then
02:07 but I didn't know who it was yet
02:08 and I was really emotional at that time.
02:10 Right. Right.
02:11 And so I ran around to the backyard
02:14 where the pool is where most of the attention
02:16 seems to be heading
02:17 and by that time they've grabbed my son
02:20 from my other son and Angelia
02:23 and they ran him to the ambulance
02:26 to resuscitate him and to work on him
02:29 and hook him up and so they could get
02:30 some input from the hospital.
02:32 So I ran into the backyard
02:33 and I know this sounds incredibly strange,
02:35 there was nobody back there with my wife and my children.
02:38 And she was there by herself in a puddle up on some stairs.
02:45 And she didn't want me to stay there ten seconds.
02:47 She needed me to move back to the ambulance
02:49 so that I could do something to help my son, right.
02:52 And in my family I'm kind of seen that way
02:55 since I'm a veterinarian that something
02:57 that I could bring something good to it.
02:58 That's what was on her plate and she told me,
03:01 "I'll be fine, you go find out what's going on."
03:04 So I run around and sure enough there's my son Ramsey
03:08 on the table in there and strange beyond all belief,
03:11 ma'am, there's nobody with him.
03:13 I think he has,
03:15 they have quit resuscitation on him.
03:21 And so I take an opportunity right behind that ambulance
03:25 to get some praying
03:26 and I evidently drew quite a crowd.
03:29 I got some I wanted for Jesus behind that ambulance.
03:33 Because when you say, you know, I'm praying,
03:34 this is not a silent prayer, this is not...
03:36 Oh, no.
03:38 You know, something that you have heard
03:39 in church every week.
03:41 This is that God...
03:43 Yeah, this is something like this.
03:45 You're the creator and you made my son.
03:48 You know what he needs now and I need you for him now.
03:55 Yes. You could fix it.
03:57 It's not too late. It's not too late.
04:01 That's the kind of prayer I came up with
04:03 and I was not gracious in it either.
04:05 I mean I was pretty loud just like you think.
04:07 And about the time
04:10 that I'm getting finished with my praying,
04:11 I think I had a good two minute go at it.
04:13 Somebody came in, and grabbed my son
04:15 and headed him to the helicopter.
04:18 And I ran beside them to get into the helicopter.
04:21 My opinion was that he was gone
04:23 and then when the helicopter took off,
04:25 I went back to the ambulance
04:27 and jumped inside the ambulance,
04:29 and went through about 20 yards of EKG strip and he was gone.
04:35 Because he knew what to look for,
04:36 we knew what you were looking at.
04:38 Oh, yeah.
04:39 So as, you know, I am looking at both of you
04:42 and knowing that you're in the backyard,
04:45 you're in the ambulance.
04:48 What's the next, what do you do next?
04:52 When they start to take off,
04:54 we had a little bit of a confrontation
04:57 because I run to get my wife and my children
04:59 and I put them in this our van.
05:01 I'm going to the hospital
05:03 and they don't really want us to go.
05:06 They don't want us to drive off,
05:07 we're not in really good shape and they don't want us to go,
05:09 and I'm relatively forcefully got everybody off the van
05:13 and we took off, and then we drove
05:14 and then we prayed on the way, it was quite a scene.
05:17 Do you remember that? Yeah. Yes, I do.
05:19 And we begged, we pleaded, we did,
05:22 we did everything that you might imagine loudly,
05:27 loudly complete desperation.
05:30 The children are in the floorboard
05:32 I mean, we are... And they are...
05:35 Pray kids, these kids are babies,
05:37 and they are praying for their brother
05:40 and it was unanswered, wasn't answered.
05:44 So you get to, you make it to the hospital,
05:48 I can't even, you know, even talking
05:50 and you said something, Jay,
05:51 to me one time is you said, I've got when you talk
05:56 and you see the pain in someone else.
05:58 It's almost like part of you wants to kind of step in
06:01 and even taken care of them because even sitting here
06:05 and talking with you now,
06:06 I don't know the next question to ask.
06:08 I don't even know, I know that, how did you,
06:11 how did you get there?
06:12 How did you, you know,
06:14 how did you make breakfast the next day or did you?
06:17 I mean what was the next part of your life
06:20 because you've got to come to grips with God,
06:23 were you not hearing us, is this your fault too.
06:26 Are you not pleased with us? Did we do something wrong?
06:30 All of those questions that you want to scream.
06:33 Did you scream?
06:35 I remember that night, we got back home I was,
06:39 you know, I...
06:40 they allowed me to hold him for hours probably four hours.
06:44 You know and our other children are watching
06:47 because I knew that was the last time.
06:49 You know, and so we had to gather our children up
06:53 and go back to the house.
06:55 Without Ramsey.
06:57 Without Ramsey, you know,
06:59 and I remember the day that Chandler,
07:01 the middle son said, "Mommy, can we just close his door."
07:05 The pain was so great, the loss was so deep.
07:10 "Can we just close his door, mommy."
07:12 And then, I remember the day that he also said,
07:15 "Can we just not put this picture here,"
07:18 because he could not, he couldn't face it.
07:21 I can't look at this.
07:23 "I can't do this now, mommy, I can't do it now."
07:26 And, you know, you talk about breakfast,
07:28 I remember my,
07:30 I actually remember my children asking for a sandwich,
07:34 three hours later I remembered
07:37 because the depression was so great.
07:39 And if they didn't, I couldn't find my car keys, Cheri,
07:42 you know, we were functioning day to day step by step.
07:47 That first night that you're talking about we got back.
07:50 We got everybody settled
07:52 and I remember we're just weeping
07:55 and weeping and crying out to God laying in the bed
07:59 and I remember saying out loud.
08:02 Now, I love Jesus with every ounce of my being.
08:05 And I said, this, "How am I supposed to trust you now,
08:12 how can I trust you with my other two."
08:15 Now I'm telling you that shook us to the core.
08:22 And how do you get to the place where you say,
08:26 okay, I can trust you.
08:28 Well, I'm telling you, it took years, it took years.
08:31 And you know what,
08:33 I just have to thank you every single time you say that,
08:36 because I think that we do want things in a bow.
08:38 We do want things explained.
08:40 We do want to, you know, we want to say, you know,
08:43 if I do the right thing,
08:44 the right thing is going to happen.
08:45 Right. It's right.
08:47 And when it doesn't...
08:50 Who do we blame and we tend to blame God.
08:53 And I think that I have to go back
08:56 and this is a crazy thing,
08:58 but I have to go back in my own life
09:00 and I have screamed at God and said, "You know,
09:02 why did you let this happen."
09:04 I mean, you know, and God said, "Man every day,
09:09 every day I try to intervene every day, you know,
09:12 we're in a world that's out of control,
09:14 "And I promise you, I did not let this happen.
09:18 This was not my plan for you. It is not my fault."
09:23 And so, you know, even with you Jay
09:26 that for you being a father everybody look to you
09:31 to do the right thing, to be able to intervene,
09:33 to make it better,
09:35 to come in and write everything that's wrong.
09:38 And in that moment knowing that,
09:40 "Man, there is nothing that I can do."
09:44 Yeah, there's nothing you could do,
09:47 but I did latch on to an idea pretty early.
09:51 And I told my children it wasn't their fault.
09:55 Amen. Yes.
09:56 You know they needed to know that.
09:58 Right, because everybody around the incident like this
10:01 pretty much engineers a method that they caused it.
10:04 I had a little girl call that talked to my son
10:07 50 minutes before my son drowned
10:09 and she thought it was her fault.
10:10 I talked to Ramsey on the phone and he said,
10:13 "I might get to be able to get in the pool today."
10:16 And when Jam Benjamin got back on the phone.
10:17 I didn't tell you, for her it was her fault.
10:20 It wasn't her fault. Yes.
10:22 It was no way her fault. Right.
10:23 For her she engineered that.
10:25 Is my son Benjamin, I could have been down there quicker.
10:28 I think I heard mom sooner.
10:29 I could have arrived quicker. I could have fixed him, yeah.
10:32 Jam Benjamin, if you could have done anything,
10:34 you could have saved your brother.
10:37 And for Angelia, you love that boy,
10:41 this is not an outcome you desired,
10:43 you did not do this.
10:45 If you...
10:48 There's just no way that that fits with who you are
10:50 and how you cared for the boy, how much he means for you
10:53 and how much you're grieving now,
10:54 you didn't do it.
10:56 You just didn't do it. It has to be said a lot.
10:59 You know, when I heard from Angelia the first time
11:03 we talked is that you said that pretty quickly to her,
11:07 this is not your fault.
11:09 Yes. That's amazing.
11:11 But you didn't hear that for yourself, did you?
11:13 No, no I pretty sure was my fault.
11:16 There was, I could have been there.
11:18 You know I spend my whole life day to day
11:20 since I'm a veterinarian.
11:22 I'm working really hard to save one pound kitten
11:25 happened to me yesterday, I was successful
11:28 and yet I was not afforded the opportunity,
11:30 and I was not successful with my own son.
11:33 There's a lot of inequity there that really will grind on you
11:35 over a long period of time.
11:37 And just like you said, you got all these big questions
11:40 just like you said it was whose fault is it,
11:42 why did it happen.
11:43 And the idea that all those would come
11:44 and you might scream those out.
11:46 You might but you'll scream them out
11:47 in really slow motion over about five years,
11:51 like you might spend this month worried.
11:54 Did God decide you were off the track
11:56 and would use your son to bring you back on?
11:58 You might play with that idea for a month or so
12:01 before it found that it had no value
12:04 that it wasn't true.
12:05 And what you say for a month or so,
12:07 we're nowhere in
12:08 and I think that we really want to wrap things up pretty quick.
12:11 We give people usually maybe a month
12:14 to four or five months to grieve.
12:16 I mean and it's crazy, I'm just saying
12:19 that I watch even in my own self
12:22 because I don't know what to say
12:23 is that we want someone to grieve
12:25 and kind of get back together be get back to yourself.
12:28 And what you're saying is you can't do that.
12:31 No, it's a journey to know where,
12:33 you're not headed back where you were.
12:35 You said it right off at the beginning
12:36 is that the lives were changed.
12:38 They are changed.
12:40 And you're on the path, you are not going to arrive
12:42 at the place that you were,
12:43 when I was sitting at that stop sign,
12:45 looked across the street and realized somebody,
12:46 or somebody, that something had happened in my house.
12:48 There's a helicopter in my yard.
12:49 I will not become that person again.
12:51 It is not, it's not on the menu.
12:53 So when you talk, when we're talking about this situation
12:57 and you're saying there were times
12:58 that I couldn't even get up and make a meal.
13:01 I'm trying to get some daily routine
13:03 and the depression is so great.
13:05 You're taking care of everybody else,
13:08 so that they know it's not your fault,
13:09 but you're feeling deeply wounded
13:11 that somehow you could have done something different.
13:13 So what is the grieving,
13:16 you know how is it different for men and women
13:18 because it's so different
13:20 and how do you even smile again, laugh again,
13:26 because I know that that happens.
13:29 You are one of the most joyful woman.
13:33 And you and I just haven't talked enough for me
13:36 to know that but even I can say that, you know,
13:38 this huge heartbreak,
13:40 the joy is back, all of that kind of stuff.
13:42 And so how do you go from that place
13:44 to standing back up and what does that look like,
13:46 and how is it different with the two of you?
13:50 I think for me while I was questioning everything,
13:55 how could this be happening.
13:57 One morning, just I'm just completely broken
14:02 and you know that still quiet voice speaks to you
14:07 and I'm just praying, I'm like, God,
14:09 anybody would be a better mother than me.
14:11 Just let me go to, just anybody to be...
14:14 Just please, I can't do this.
14:17 I can't walk this, you know.
14:19 Why didn't you show up if you are this good God?
14:24 Why am I finding myself here
14:26 and why didn't you intervene like you said,
14:29 and I will never forget the moment he said to me,
14:32 "What makes you think I wasn't there the whole time."
14:38 I'm omnipresent, that means he's everywhere all the time,
14:42 and if he weren't,
14:43 then things that happened in our life
14:45 would catch him off guard.
14:47 That's not the God we serve.
14:49 He is not unaware of our circumstance.
14:53 He's not, he's not unaware of your pain.
14:57 And so for me, knowing that
14:59 and taking myself back to the fall.
15:03 God never intended for us to bury children.
15:05 He never intended for cancer
15:07 to be part of a lot of people's journey,
15:10 and divorce and all of those things
15:13 that was never part of the plan.
15:15 Thanks Adam and Eve,
15:17 and because of that sin entered in
15:19 and because sin entered in,
15:21 now we bury children and parents and we suffer.
15:26 You know and so to look at that and say,
15:28 "God you caused that."
15:30 No, he said, good God,
15:32 I had to go all the way back to his attributes.
15:34 He is loving, he is kind, he is gentle, he loves me,
15:37 he means good towards me.
15:39 I plan evil for no one. There you go.
15:42 I mean...
15:43 All good things are from above, all good things,
15:45 and this was not good.
15:47 And so, you know, when we wrestle through that,
15:50 was it your fault or your fault or whose fault and you know
15:53 even people as Jay said, that weren't in our family,
15:56 they would say that, and I'm like,
15:58 "Nothing you could have done
16:00 would have stopped that moment."
16:02 I don't believe that.
16:03 I believe that moment was Ramsey's moment.
16:06 Because if anything could have been done in the natural,
16:08 believe me, we would have done it.
16:10 So we have to say, God, you saw it.
16:13 God, this is where we are,
16:15 now if there's anything left in me
16:18 that you can use, take it I want to give that...
16:20 So, Angelia, what I'm hearing you say is there was a moment
16:25 where you surrendered yourself back into the arms of God.
16:28 Yes. Yes. Okay, I trust you.
16:32 I may not be able to explain this
16:34 but I trust you.
16:35 I had to, Cheri, because who else could help me.
16:41 Where was I going to go for help?
16:43 He was the only place to go.
16:46 And so if he created me, if he knows all about me.
16:50 He knew that circumstance
16:52 and he knew the depth of my suffering
16:54 and he also knew that I didn't want to live.
16:57 He also saw the dark place
17:00 where I remember the day I said,
17:02 "If I can just get my clothes on,
17:04 by noon I will win."
17:08 Noon, if I can just not even shower,
17:12 not even brush my teeth,
17:13 if I can just get out of this bed,
17:16 I'm going to win.
17:18 And that is how I started digging out of that hole.
17:21 My God, you've got to take this hand
17:22 because I cannot walk this.
17:25 And he's done it everyday since.
17:28 He says, I want you to choose to live.
17:29 Choose life. Choose life.
17:31 But, you know, I was at a place
17:33 where I had to make a hard decision,
17:35 and you know where I was at that place
17:38 where I was about 18 months where I'm still going.
17:42 I don't want to do this.
17:45 I just could not stop saying that,
17:47 I don't, I can't and I don't.
17:49 And I remember as clear as I have ever heard a word
17:54 was that you have got to choose either bitter or better.
17:59 You will stay in this place bitter,
18:03 you would die in this place or you would choose life
18:06 and she's better.
18:08 Let me heal you.
18:09 And that is what I chose 18 months...
18:11 And so we're talking about,
18:14 I know just from friends that men and women
18:18 go through this process so differently.
18:20 You know, can you start out
18:22 with even you going into the pool.
18:25 And how did you get to the place
18:27 where you could say, okay,
18:30 I can step back into my relationship with God,
18:33 I can step back into my own skin.
18:35 And like you said you're talking years.
18:38 Took a very long time
18:40 but pretty quickly the next day I did what you said,
18:43 I was first washed with the emotion
18:47 of what it was like for him.
18:51 What he was feeling? Was he scared? Did he hurt?
18:57 So to work that out, I got in the pool,
19:01 I wasn't drowning myself but I wanted to lay down there
19:03 where he was so I did, I got right there,
19:05 I mean it was the next day.
19:06 And I'm at the bottom of the pool laying,
19:08 sitting at the spot where Angelia goes right there.
19:14 With my clothes on, I jumped in the pool.
19:16 And I get down to the bottom and I lay on the back and I go,
19:20 it's kind of quiet and the temperature is nice,
19:26 but as I look up, the Baptist Church
19:28 that is right next door,
19:29 the cross is reflecting on the top of the water.
19:33 It sounds crazy but it meant a lot to me
19:35 that Jesus was right there with him.
19:40 He wasn't by himself. Yeah.
19:42 I wasn't there but he was there.
19:45 For my place that was really relief,
19:49 I thought he was by himself really.
19:51 I made it terrible in my mind but the truth is
19:53 that Jesus was there and he could,
19:57 and he could see that, it meant everything to me.
20:00 Amen. And I started right there.
20:01 And from the guy perspective, I had a tons of questions.
20:06 And I had a ton of anger
20:08 that's the way that I wanted this.
20:10 No question.
20:11 I'm good in that, and nobody consoled me
20:14 because they get the same questions is asked,
20:18 how could this happen.
20:19 How would you allow this to happen?
20:20 Why would you even let us have the child
20:22 if you're going to taken from us now?
20:24 What is the purpose of him being here?
20:25 Millions of hard questions but still being a guy,
20:28 I bundled that all up and didn't deal with it at all.
20:31 And so I decided I would function.
20:33 I would function, that I would go to work.
20:36 Yeah. I would go.
20:37 I would stop at the groceries because my wife,
20:39 it was very difficult for all of us.
20:41 She wasn't functioning yet, so I decided,
20:44 it just came to me
20:45 that the only good thing that I could do
20:47 out of all the hateful reactions I could have,
20:49 the only good thing that could be done
20:51 would be try to go to work.
20:53 Try to get the money in the bank,
20:54 try to pay that bill.
20:56 Try to bring the groceries home and I would cook dinner
20:59 and then we would sit in the recliners.
21:02 Because in recliners
21:04 'cause it's difficult sitting at a table
21:06 looking at each other.
21:07 Oh, yes, because it's the one less child,
21:10 one less person at the table
21:11 and it kept us from looking at that
21:14 and dealing with it.
21:15 We didn't go back to that table.
21:16 We didn't go back to that table.
21:18 And I guess the reason I want to say
21:20 that is for people they don't realize
21:22 that when you say everything changes.
21:24 We can't even have the meal together.
21:27 My friend set the table for her son
21:30 for years after he died and people said,
21:33 finally stopped setting the table.
21:34 It's too painful but everything changes.
21:36 So you're saying we're in recliners,
21:38 were eating, you're functioning,
21:40 doing the right thing, burying your anger.
21:42 That's what I was trying to do, and when you say different,
21:44 I mean like we shop for groceries in another town.
21:50 Because he would ride with me on the thing,
21:52 you know in the cart, and he would pick the things,
21:54 I have to go right by there
21:56 besides that people are not kind,
21:58 your best friends are not kind about this.
22:00 And so they will come up
22:01 and you're just getting some oxygen,
22:05 you felt good
22:06 and this individual from your church or something
22:09 will come by and hand you something.
22:11 And it will just burn you down for two weeks
22:14 and rather than take the risk you leave town.
22:16 So we shopped and did everything and...
22:18 Let me just say that 'cause I don't know
22:20 if we know how to speak to somebody
22:23 that's grieving at any level,
22:26 but definitely at this level we don't know what to say.
22:29 So we'll tend to cry to say something
22:32 but like you said,
22:33 if I'm breathing for the first time in a year.
22:36 I can't have you crying in front of me right now.
22:38 I can't have you saying this right now
22:40 and not mean anybody's cruel.
22:42 It's like I promise you I'm just breathing.
22:46 I'm just breathing.
22:47 And they don't mean. Yeah.
22:48 As matter of fact, they maybe even thought 15, 20 minutes
22:51 because when they saw you across a grocery store.
22:53 They may have concocted this great thing
22:54 that they think will really be great,
22:56 who best thing I heard.
23:00 Is what? Is nothing.
23:01 You can't say anything to me right now.
23:04 Our physician came over
23:06 and would drag my trash can to the street.
23:09 I watched them for months.
23:12 Never said a word.
23:13 Pulled up his car, grab that trash can,
23:17 pulled it over the street.
23:20 That's good service.
23:22 I mean that's...
23:23 Yeah, and people that would just hug me quick
23:26 and they're out the door.
23:27 Somebody dropped something off,
23:28 a lady came from the barbecue place
23:30 that Ramsey liked
23:31 and she knocked on the door and she comes...
23:34 That was, those were good.
23:36 I think that, I think somewhere in there
23:38 is that they would serve us a little bit
23:41 so that we would know that they were there for us
23:44 but that they would not project some thought
23:46 that they had to you
23:48 because there's no way
23:49 they could know what we were at
23:50 and they frequently did it really clumsily,
23:53 sometimes really bad.
23:54 I mean I had a lady at a Japanese restaurant
23:57 run from the store from the restaurant crying.
24:01 And it was probably, was it six months later?
24:03 Yeah, but she was going to,
24:05 she didn't realize Ramsey had drowned,
24:07 so they're going to get a high chair
24:10 and Ramsey is drowned and they didn't know,
24:14 you know, and then another time he's talking about
24:16 was the same restaurant where they literally looked at us
24:20 and she took off running.
24:22 You know and then you think I am so broken right now,
24:27 could you just hug me without running from me.
24:29 I can see.
24:30 Yeah, I can't see your reaction or your pain right now,
24:33 it doesn't help me.
24:34 That doesn't help. So, yeah.
24:36 So even being able to say with both of you, Jay,
24:43 I am sorry that I feel like
24:45 I really wanted to stay on these.
24:47 So for your anger and for your,
24:51 the way you functioned was to try to over function
24:55 and not deal with anything that you really feeling.
24:59 How long did it take before you finally said
25:03 this is not working.
25:04 That's a five year thing. Okay.
25:06 That's a five year thing at least.
25:10 Yeah, absolutely.
25:12 I would...
25:14 For a while I worked in a kind of an anger thing
25:16 despite you know that the world
25:19 and my God is you know...
25:23 injuring me or working against
25:25 what I and everyone else could see is good,
25:27 I am going to prevail here
25:29 and you work yourself out pretty good
25:31 because the situation is not changing
25:34 and you will and I worked myself down that way,
25:38 but I just try to be extremely diligent,
25:40 do the best I could for my family,
25:42 and do those physical things, trying to function.
25:45 I'm going to tell you,
25:46 there's the way that that worked out
25:48 that I was mad and functioning and she was not functioning
25:52 and later become and then she recovered
25:54 and then I entered a place that was not as good.
25:58 I've to look God ordained, you know where we didn't go,
26:03 we didn't become nonfunctional at the same time
26:06 and we were able to feed our kids
26:08 and show up at the right place
26:09 and pay our bills and do our thing.
26:11 So it was dramatically different
26:13 and I didn't get to any deep spiritual thought
26:16 till it was five years down the road
26:18 and other than just a bunch of anger.
26:20 So what, you know, and to me
26:23 and I know that you know that's at a level that I don't,
26:26 but I doubt God can handle all of that.
26:29 And where was it when you guys...
26:32 You and God actually started saying, I see you.
26:39 Had the thought one day and it was while I was at work.
26:45 Yeah, don't want to make this too bad
26:46 but I had an animal that had passed away
26:48 and I was just sitting there going on, this is,
26:50 I'm really down about this in five years out
26:52 I'm going like, but I know that...
26:57 that you were powerful enough to move there
27:03 and that animal woke up, when I thought that,
27:06 I had like this really pure thought.
27:08 I don't think it had anything to do with it
27:10 but my question was I know because of how I understand
27:14 who you are that you could have stopped change
27:16 or done something along the way I think, I think I have that.
27:19 As a matter of fact right now
27:20 in this little dingy surgery room
27:22 where I'm sitting on the stool.
27:24 I think you can change something right now.
27:28 You can't kick back off. It sounds like a miracle.
27:31 I'm not trying to take it like that.
27:33 What I'm trying to take it was he cracked the nut in my brain.
27:38 But that was true, but that was true
27:40 that he is all powerful and all knowing
27:42 he's omniscient in all these things that I understand.
27:45 And the last thing that came to me was
27:48 because of that was, he is not hurt by my questions.
27:52 He is got the answers. Yes.
27:54 Amen. So it ceased to be adversarial.
28:00 And that's when I started to turn the corner.
28:02 Just when I realized he was not out for my bad,
28:06 but had actual...
28:07 This is not punishment.
28:08 That's right, and there were answers to the questions
28:11 that I had,
28:12 and he's not insulted by me or the fact that I would ask.
28:16 That's incredible.
28:17 And it's so incredible for both of you now saying
28:21 that you know the enemy would do anything to say,
28:24 you know what, You just like what just happen,
28:27 you know, just kill yourself, just give up, just stop.
28:31 And God saying don't stop. Yes.
28:34 I never intended this ever you like you said Angelia,
28:38 you know we were not meant to bury people who we love,
28:41 we were not meant to experience loss and pain and dysfunction
28:45 and all that kind of stuff.
28:47 So now you're back into a relationship
28:49 where God is just saying,
28:51 can I breathe life back into you?
28:55 Because right now you can't muster it up,
28:57 you're on your own.
28:58 That's right.
29:00 I like to breathe this back into you.
29:01 So as you guys start to stand up,
29:03 what does that look like in your home?
29:06 You know the first thing that happened
29:07 was we were just several months in
29:11 and we sold our home.
29:12 Well we didn't sell it, we moved into an apartment.
29:15 And is that to just get everyone
29:18 out of all of that familiar.
29:20 No, it was actually about our oldest son playing baseball
29:24 in a different school and it was a high,
29:26 you know academically it was the best place for him
29:29 and he played baseball and everything was better
29:31 and so in order for us to move for him to play,
29:35 it required us to move into that particular district.
29:38 So we had an apartment.
29:41 So we didn't sell the house yet but we had an apartment
29:43 and so we're sitting in this tiny...
29:46 We had a lovely home.
29:47 We're sitting in this tiny two bedroom apartment.
29:51 We're squeezed in there like this
29:53 and I remember I was in the kitchen
29:57 and you know little tiny apartment,
29:58 you can see everybody all the time.
30:00 So I remember I was in the kitchen,
30:02 I was making popcorn or something.
30:04 We were going to watch a movie
30:05 and I heard for the first time in seven or eight months.
30:11 I heard my family laugh.
30:14 I heard them laughing over a funny show on TV,
30:19 a cartoon or something.
30:20 And I just began to weep because I was not sure
30:24 I would ever hear my family laugh again,
30:27 could we and were we allowed.
30:29 I remember laughing and thinking oh...
30:33 Sort of guilt.
30:34 Yes, drawing myself back in,
30:35 I buried my son eight months ago
30:38 and I don't think,
30:39 I think people will get the wrong impression.
30:42 And I was just trying to heal but I had guilt over my joy
30:47 and he was just speaking life into my spirit.
30:51 You know, and so when I heard them laughing,
30:53 I remember thinking, we are going to make it.
30:57 We're going to make it. I know we're going to make it.
31:01 I can't even...
31:02 I can't even...
31:04 You want to stay on that moment,
31:06 that it's such an incredible thing for folks
31:08 that are struggling with anything especially grief
31:11 is that there is a moment, hang in there,
31:15 that you will get to the point where you are going to make it.
31:19 We're going to be okay. Yes, you know.
31:20 Not okay, not the saying.
31:22 No, not, you go into a different place,
31:24 but you think it's a okay place.
31:26 You're headed somewhere better.
31:27 You're headed there.
31:29 And so, Jay, I'd like to stay there
31:31 heading somewhere better, and I'm not saying better
31:36 because Ramsey is not there
31:37 but better in the sense of...
31:42 When we start to understand the depth of who we are,
31:46 or the depth of who God is what this world really is
31:49 outside of our pollyannaish view on Christianity
31:53 and I hate to say that because I don't mean that as a slam.
31:55 But we do have like you said to me one time
31:58 you know is that we think if we do this
32:01 and we have this in order and we have this,
32:03 when we go to church and we do our devotions
32:06 that we will not be touched by any of the sin.
32:08 That's right.
32:10 When we realize that that was a lie from the enemy himself.
32:13 That's right.
32:14 The people, everybody,
32:15 everybody that hears us speak today
32:17 will be thinking that won't happen.
32:19 This couldn't happen that this tragedy
32:21 that I heard about won't happen to us
32:23 because and we'll have a flimsy reason,
32:25 I stop at every stop sign.
32:26 I would never let my son drive to the prom alone,
32:29 whatever it is that got them to that place
32:31 they will protect them self a little bit.
32:33 I think that's kind of a normal thing,
32:37 but it's false and it doesn't,
32:40 there's no protection to be had in those things
32:44 and you know
32:45 when I hand that piece of information to somebody,
32:48 I also hand out the other things that you heard me say,
32:50 but this won't happen to you because it's...
32:55 What happens it happens,
32:56 and that's the truth about your new reality.
32:58 This thing has happened
33:00 and you're not going to unmake that happen
33:01 but you can, you can find to be a way
33:04 to be well in a different way.
33:05 You know, you'll be, you won't be the same.
33:07 And the other thing is you meet some people
33:10 that it just happened to him.
33:11 This happened with Angelia a lot from about a year out on,
33:15 I don't think in our community
33:16 there's anybody that had a tragedy
33:20 of some sort they didn't seek us out.
33:22 I really felt funny first because when I would go,
33:24 if I went and they saw me
33:26 especially if they're at the hospital.
33:27 You know I might be the harboring a bad news
33:29 because it didn't turn out well for me
33:32 but I soon gave that up
33:34 because those people were seeking us out.
33:35 And then we got a chance to speak with somebody
33:37 who was in a place where we were, and that...
33:39 Just buried a child.
33:40 Just buried a child
33:42 or is in the throes of the battle
33:43 of how that's going.
33:44 They might be okay, they might not
33:46 but having someone like us to talk to
33:48 suddenly became a role for us.
33:51 We really kind of embraced that and that helped,
33:54 that helped.
33:55 So how did that helped?
33:58 It's a commonality, you know, you want to help somebody
34:02 and then suddenly something
34:04 that you really have experienced deeply matters.
34:07 It didn't matter to anybody else before
34:08 but suddenly it does...
34:11 It's a scab over a big one, it really is.
34:14 I think for me it was not only somebody
34:18 wanting to know how I survived it.
34:21 When sometimes I was questioning am I surviving
34:25 but someone saw that I was surviving,
34:28 and I think that was because I was still breathing.
34:30 Right. You know.
34:31 And so I would hear myself tell someone else,
34:35 do this, it's okay not to get up till noon
34:39 and I would hear myself.
34:41 And I would go. I really am going to make it.
34:44 Amen. I'm going to make that.
34:46 And so it's just giving someone else
34:48 a little bit of hope.
34:49 And it sounds like and just hearing yourself
34:52 over and over and over, reminding yourself
34:56 almost to do the right thing, to do the next thing
34:59 and I, excuse me I want to apologize
35:00 for saying right thing to do the next thing,
35:03 because I really want to be sensitive
35:05 and there's no right or wrong thing in right now.
35:07 You know we want to label it and there is not,
35:09 it's the next thing, the next step.
35:12 You know we have talked about a lot of things
35:15 on this program.
35:17 I'm thinking about your two sons
35:20 because the only image I have the last image
35:22 is one's up on the porch wringing his hands
35:24 and the other one is holding this baby.
35:26 So what about them, where they are?
35:29 Well, I'll talk, I'll let you talk about our youngest son,
35:31 I'll talk about older son, okay.
35:32 My son Benjamin as a minor league baseball player now.
35:35 No way.
35:37 The party was a baseball party where he got sick.
35:41 And he still plays today and plays internationally,
35:45 started off maybe in Munich, played a Bern, Switzerland.
35:49 Today he's in South Africa.
35:51 He plays associated baseball in Fargo, North Dakota
35:57 during the regular season
35:58 so he's what they're presently today.
36:00 He's below the equator playing
36:01 what they would call winter ball
36:03 and getting prepared for him
36:05 to continue his career up there,
36:06 you know it's called the Fargo Morehead Red Hawks
36:09 is the team he has contract with presently.
36:11 I could just see you at a game just screaming your head off,
36:14 I bet it has been fun. Oh, my gosh.
36:17 Listen I need my Christian friends to ignore me
36:19 when we're talking about umpire,
36:21 we'll just talk about that later.
36:23 So your other son?
36:24 Yes, the other son Chandler, the middle son.
36:26 He just finished an internship in New York
36:30 with the United Nations permanent mission to Israel
36:34 and he is all about it.
36:37 He's all about it, he just graduated from college
36:40 with two degrees, honors in both
36:43 and he's looking for an opportunity
36:46 to get back in the embassy.
36:47 So I don't want to say goodbye yet, I want to take a break,
36:50 I want to come back for the close,
36:51 I want you to say a little bit more
36:53 about the kids and then talk to,
36:57 talk to our audience.
36:58 So we'll be right back. Stay with us.