Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Fran McKain
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000122B
00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to addictive behavior.
00:05 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:06 may be too candid for younger children.
00:18 You know this is fun for me because a lot of time like
00:21 I bring a lot of friends and people that I know
00:24 and people that I've met in recovery
00:25 and on the journey of traveling.
00:29 But today I get to bring somebody
00:30 I worked with which is great.
00:32 And I want to introduce you to the Fran Mckain.
00:35 Fran, I want to just say how fun is it,
00:37 you are on the program.
00:38 It's awesome to be here. It's awesome.
00:40 And you have been working for True Step Ministries
00:44 or our ministry for how long?
00:46 Almost a year. Almost a year.
00:48 And I just have to-- when you came on board
00:53 I had been running at with different folks
00:55 often on most of the time by myself or since 1994.
01:01 And it kind of reflected, kind of look like that.
01:05 And I was surprised on the first couple of projects
01:08 that we had to work together on
01:11 it was amazing to watch you,
01:14 take it, put timelines to get how we're gonna do it,
01:18 when do we needed by, what kind of artist do we need
01:20 in order to get the projects done
01:23 and it was just delightful.
01:25 So I want to say thank you for that.
01:28 I want to brag on,
01:31 our new recovery version of Steps to Christ.
01:35 You had a lot to do with that.
01:38 I want to-- I had a dream years ago
01:41 about taking Steps to Christ
01:43 putting it into recovery language
01:45 we did the first season of Celebrating Life in Recovery
01:49 with the book Steps to Christ
01:50 and I really wanted to kind of change the language
01:54 and so we started to do that with the various folks,
01:58 hired someone to do it, had some addicts come in
02:01 and addicts are fun to work with
02:02 because addicts will come in and say no, no,
02:05 I could do that, just give me that
02:06 and they'll change two or three sentences
02:08 and forget about the rest of the chapter.
02:10 But Fran came in and literally took
02:12 what we had done through the years
02:15 and can you explain the process of what you did with that?
02:18 Sure, yeah, it was editing, heavy editing.
02:22 Probably, I think we went three rounds of editing on that book
02:26 and we also needed to integrate the twelve-steps into it
02:30 so that we could use that and make it really fit
02:33 with our Celebrating Life in Recovery program.
02:35 So making sure that it matches
02:37 the key messages of the celebrating life
02:40 as well as twelve-steps and all the editing.
02:44 For folks who don't-- are little more flaky than that
02:50 I just want to just interpret what you just said.
02:54 But you know, you took the twelve-steps
02:56 and literally put it in the book.
02:59 And to me when you did that I was just like
03:02 I read it the first time and I thought it was genius.
03:05 You know, because I really believe
03:07 when I first saw Steps to Christ
03:08 when I first went to it as an addict
03:10 thought it was great twelve-step program.
03:12 It had everything that you would need
03:14 in order to get a foundation underneath you.
03:16 And so you didn't have-- I don't have to guess
03:19 because what you did as it showed us
03:21 what that look like in every chapter.
03:23 Yeah, I think your intuition about that was exactly right.
03:26 I mean, the book is about recovery.
03:28 It's about how God works in our hearts to change us
03:31 and but in twelve-steps
03:33 and really wasn't very difficult because it fits.
03:35 It was awesome.
03:36 And it was a book that you loved anyway.
03:38 I loved that book.
03:39 I think-- that one
03:41 and maybe Desire of Ages are two of my favorites.
03:45 I may have you to work on Desire of Ages next.
03:47 It's a little vigor, Desire of Ages in Recovery.
03:51 That would be awesome.
03:53 But you know what's really fun, so then we want to had
03:55 how to do the design as far as the cover design,
03:59 Bob McKain who also has joined us for the ministry
04:02 and has really organize us like crazy
04:06 he's been on earlier show.
04:09 He's our executive director of operations
04:11 and he's just amazing.
04:12 He's also a photographer.
04:14 So I had that in mind what the cover would look like.
04:18 I tried to do the cover on my own in Australia
04:21 with a-- a woman in Australia
04:24 but we ended up doing it with you guys.
04:26 And I just got to say the cover was beautiful,
04:29 the inside is beautiful and it's off the press.
04:33 So I want to say thank you for that.
04:35 And then another one just before
04:36 we get into finding out who you are,
04:38 because, you know, this is all fun for me
04:40 because we now have something that we can put out there
04:43 that is really helpful like they use Steps to Christ
04:46 in this women's jail not long ago
04:48 they went through the whole thing
04:49 because you put questions on the end of every chapter
04:51 so that we could use it as a study guide
04:53 or quarterly or whatever.
04:55 And so used it in a women's prison
04:58 and yeah, so the women went through it
04:59 and they got baptized and they had all the pictures
05:01 and I just wanted to cry
05:03 because it exactly what we wanted it to do.
05:06 I love that. Yeah, that was awesome.
05:08 The next one,
05:09 we needed the children version of Steps to Christ.
05:12 So I prayed, God said, do the children's version
05:16 and I said to you we got to do it.
05:18 And you put it together within a week I think.
05:22 The plan. The plan.
05:23 I think it took us three months to put it together,
05:26 photography, editing, writing.
05:29 Writing Steps to Christ for children is a challenge.
05:32 Writing Steps to Christ for children
05:34 for five to twelve year olds
05:35 and we called it Skips to Jesus.
05:38 Because it is like Steps to Christ
05:41 but for children so it talks about
05:42 bullying and blame and lying and divorce
05:46 and now all that kind of stuff
05:47 that we don't really talk to about,
05:49 what does it mean?
05:51 How do you teach a child what the Commandments mean?
05:55 How do you teach a child
05:56 that the love of God is just so huge?
05:59 That He is not checking of our behaviors
06:01 literally trying to love us into a place
06:03 for we love each other
06:05 and our behaviors with each other are better.
06:07 You know, and so-- I just want to say again
06:11 you know, sitting with you
06:13 and kind of flushing out this project
06:16 and then having you put the ideas together
06:18 and calling me back over and it was perfect.
06:22 And I just got to say it was just perfect,
06:24 it was so cool and again we're still working
06:27 on an additional project with Skips to Jesus.
06:30 We wanted to do a whole VBS Program.
06:33 Brenda Walsh is doing a children's network
06:36 and I even talked with her about
06:37 what about a children show on recovery,
06:40 just like Celebrating Life in Recovery
06:42 but for kids and based on some of the stuff.
06:45 That would be really amazing. Isn't it fun?
06:47 But I got to say, Fran,
06:49 I don't think I would have ever
06:51 had the strength over the--
06:57 I don't think I ever could have stood up
07:00 with these incredible ideas,
07:01 with these incredible vision that even God gives.
07:04 Because I knew that I couldn't do it.
07:06 Now that God is putting people around us
07:08 so in the team of the ministry,
07:10 that actually have those skills
07:12 that we can have these visions and have them actually,
07:18 you know, work and be good and change people's life.
07:22 So I want to just say thank you for that
07:24 and you are such an incredible person to work with.
07:26 It's been.
07:27 For me it feels like a call to be where I'm at.
07:30 It feels like everything I learned
07:32 throughout my life comes together in these books.
07:34 It's just a joy. That's so fun.
07:38 And you know, I brought you on
07:42 not to so much brag on what you've done
07:43 even though I could brag on what you've done forever
07:45 because I'm so delighted to work with you.
07:48 But your journey to me is so different than mine.
07:52 You know, I'm coming from drugs, alcohols,
07:54 on the streets I had to learn to read.
07:56 Man, you got a degree in language,
07:58 you know what I mean, it's like you love is language,
08:01 it's what you do.
08:02 So we're so different
08:03 but also even from where you came from and your home,
08:06 so I would like you to share your story
08:08 with us today, is that right?
08:11 So where did you come from? What was your home like?
08:14 I was raised in fairly conservative
08:18 very loving Christian home.
08:20 My parents were school teachers
08:22 for the Adventist school system,
08:23 they were elementary school teachers.
08:25 And so reading was a big part of our home.
08:29 I learned to read I think when I was five,
08:31 taught myself to read
08:32 because I had to read these books.
08:36 But my dad also ran a firewood business on the side
08:39 because teachers don't make a lot of money,
08:41 so you had to do something to make ends meet.
08:43 And so life for us was church, school
08:47 and working at home either in the garden, in the house
08:50 or helping with firewood there was a lot of work.
08:53 Of course, time still to build forts
08:54 and play cowboys and Indians
08:56 but it was a wonderful childhood.
08:59 And the religious factor was big
09:02 because we were not only taught about God at home
09:05 but also at church and at school
09:07 because it was a Christian school and--
09:10 Being a learner as to reader I took to that very naturally.
09:15 We always had lots of books in the house and I read avidly.
09:18 And so reading about the Bible first in the Bible story books
09:22 and then in my later teen years the Bible itself.
09:26 I could even see you as there in school
09:29 and you're-- of course a student
09:30 but then they have to do things
09:33 after the other kids go home to close up to school.
09:36 I could see you with the books somewhere just saying okay--
09:38 Oh, yeah, sitting in the corner and at recess.
09:41 Oh, at recess too.
09:42 Yeah, because I was very shy. Okay.
09:44 And so a book was always my good companion.
09:47 You know, sitting alone on the playground
09:49 reading was a very typical scene for me.
09:51 Oh. Yeah.
09:53 I just want to hug that kid
09:54 because even when you said that and that was okay.
09:58 There is a part of me that says I'm wondering if your--
10:00 in your journey that was always okay.
10:03 No, it wasn't.
10:05 I think that was way to hide because I--
10:11 I knew I was never one of the cool kids
10:13 so I compensated by being smart
10:16 and academic accomplishment
10:18 was almost as good as being cool.
10:20 Yeah. Yeah.
10:22 I could that even now, you know.
10:24 Because when-- even when you're walk in to church
10:26 because we go to the same church
10:28 and we also work together
10:29 is that if somebody has a project
10:31 and they needed to be laid out or they needed to be--
10:34 they have the wow factors they will look at you.
10:37 Just like you know Fran can do it.
10:38 Because being busy and working hard
10:41 is makes me feel important
10:43 and being important is almost just good
10:45 as being having intimacy with other people.
10:49 It satisfies that need somehow almost
10:52 and so I've used that--
10:53 I've discovered as a substitute most of my life.
10:56 So on your journey
10:57 when we talk about recovery on this program
11:00 at one point would you have related to that at all?
11:04 No, no, I didn't think I had any problems.
11:08 I love that.
11:09 When you even said that, first I was just like, oh, man.
11:13 You know knowing that if the Bible is true,
11:16 that we all are on this journey,
11:18 all in need of the blood of Christ.
11:20 So when you said that I was just thinking
11:21 what does that-- what is God going to reveal to her?
11:25 And so I would like you to talk about
11:28 a little bit you're growing--
11:30 you've got a good picture of your growing up,
11:33 maybe a few more stories to kind of solidify that
11:36 but then where did God reach you to say
11:40 maybe there is an issue?
11:41 And what does that issue look like?
11:42 Yeah, I'm glad to share, it's important.
11:44 I was baptized I think when I was seven
11:47 and it came from a book again.
11:49 I was allowed to stay home one Sabbath afternoon
11:51 when the family went for a walk
11:53 and I was reading the story of Jesus crucifixion
11:56 in my little Bible storybook and it moved to me deeply,
11:59 to see that someone so kind was treated so cruelly.
12:03 I didn't understand the cause, but I love Him.
12:07 And so I was baptized at seven
12:09 and I was the sincere following of God.
12:13 My heart has been after Him my whole life.
12:16 And in high school I was in--
12:18 you know, avid Bible student then I preached my first sermon
12:21 I think when I was a sophomore in high school.
12:25 And you can preach some sermons?
12:26 Yeah, I still preach now.
12:28 I love it. Yeah, thank you.
12:30 And-- and I was never one of the kids who rebelled.
12:35 I didn't want to disappoint my parents or anybody else.
12:37 Somebody-- this is just for you guys,
12:39 I thought this is the funniest thing ever.
12:42 Fran and I in church
12:43 and we both given our testimony on the same day
12:45 which is ridiculous because you know--
12:47 About repentance. About repentance.
12:50 But it's so different and so somebody says to Fran,
12:53 do you ever wish you had like a story
12:55 like Cheri that you rebelled?
12:56 And she said, no.
12:59 Do you remember that? So painful.
13:00 Yeah, well even who would wish that?
13:03 You know, it's like I'm dealing
13:04 with my own stuff and it's different.
13:05 But who would want to be a like heroin addict
13:07 and homeless and all that kind of stuff.
13:09 Oh, and I don't like pain.
13:10 Okay, but your response I just cracked up
13:13 because I thought that was just the funniest thing.
13:16 So and I love what you say because this is, it's not like,
13:21 it's all of your journey with God was very rich
13:25 and very real, your amount of experiences
13:28 and what you would put out-- put on paper the research
13:31 that you did as far as diving into these stories
13:35 and what the Bible meant by this or that.
13:37 I mean when you if-- when you did a sermon
13:40 I could tell that I mean the original language
13:43 you searched out and all that kind of stuff--
13:45 But after research.
13:46 All of that was very, very real.
13:48 Very from the--
13:50 I was gonna say from the heart, that is from the head.
13:52 Yeah, I think it's from-- well and it touches me--
13:54 I see its beauty and its depth
13:56 and its poignancy and those things
14:00 and it touches me that way.
14:03 I'll share with you a couple of faith crisis
14:05 that occurred for me.
14:07 I want my-- shortly after Bob and I were married
14:09 he took a job that required him to travel quite a bit,
14:11 so I was home alone.
14:12 And for some reason
14:13 I took to reading stories like drama in real life
14:16 and the Readers Digest just horrible stories
14:20 and it would left to me just terrified,
14:23 especially I've been alone at night.
14:24 So I'll lay in bed at night rigid with fear
14:27 just listening to the sounds of the house and-- Yeah.
14:30 And some-- during that time somehow subconsciously
14:36 I guess I came to the conclusion
14:38 that if I couldn't trust God with my physical safety,
14:40 what good is He?
14:42 And I wasn't aware of it and I continued my regular,
14:46 you know, daily Bible study
14:47 and prayer and church activities,
14:50 teaching Bible classes and all of that
14:52 but I was in a spiritual desert for years.
14:55 So you started to separate that sense of--
14:59 you know, I am okay
15:00 and the world is safe to where I am not okay.
15:04 And I couldn't face that it's not safe.
15:07 I think I masked that, but I also didn't trust Him
15:12 then because if I can't trust Him
15:13 to protect me what good is He?
15:16 That lasted for years and I finally--
15:19 the key turning point for me was a women's seminar I went to
15:22 and there's that song I forget the name of it
15:25 but it's about when you can't trace His hand,
15:29 when you can't see His plan trust His heart.
15:32 And it made me realize
15:35 I can trust Him even when things aren't okay.
15:38 That was big, that was one key one.
15:42 And then I would love you know, it's really tough
15:45 to fully flush out or color those moments
15:48 because those moments are so significant.
15:50 If somebody can look at in a spiritual sense
15:54 that you change, you came back towards God.
15:58 Yeah, yeah it was the key lesson
16:00 that He can trusted even when things aren't good.
16:04 Another really big one was about ten years ago
16:09 at this point I had been teaching
16:11 Bible classes for 25 years or so very deep Bible student.
16:18 And I'm just love studying the Bible hours every week.
16:24 And I went to camp meeting with a friend
16:29 and she said to me, oh, let's just talk about God.
16:34 And I thought okay.
16:39 I mean, I'm glad to talk with you about
16:41 all these wonderful things I'm learning in the Bible.
16:43 Right. I love to talk about that.
16:45 All this research.
16:46 But she wants to talk about God like,
16:48 let's just talk about God.
16:50 I'm thinking, I don't have anything to say.
16:55 Explain that because to me
16:57 I think that there are so many people
16:59 watching right now don't know exactly what you're saying.
17:01 Yeah. Look I don't--
17:03 What do you mean? I haven't encountered Him.
17:07 I don't-- haven't seen Him.
17:08 I can tell you thoughts about Him,
17:11 I can tell you how beautiful the Bible is,
17:14 how moving its messages but I haven't encountered Him.
17:19 I don't find Him doing anything directly in my life.
17:25 It's not a personal thing? It is not at all.
17:27 I mean, no, it is not. And at that point--
17:34 Even saying that, because to me
17:36 I think the first time I realized for one
17:41 how the vulnerability we've been saying
17:43 that out loud even to yourself
17:45 and especially as intellectual as you are,
17:51 knowing that disconnect.
17:52 I mean, that's very much a disconnect.
17:54 Is that being able to say
17:57 that must have cost somewhat of a crisis.
18:00 And being able to say to someone
18:02 is that I don't want to really kind of be right here
18:05 because that's too vulnerable and I don't want to say to you
18:07 that I can't just talk about God.
18:10 Yeah, it was--
18:11 I remember during that time going to camp meeting every day
18:15 and coming home and just crying
18:17 uncontrollably on the drive home
18:19 and I had no idea why, no idea what was going on.
18:23 But one thing I knew is that I needed to see Him.
18:27 And I started asking Him that I needed to see You.
18:30 It's got to be something real, not just the book.
18:33 At the same time and I don't know
18:36 if I've ever asked you this, at the same time
18:38 I know that you were really doing some deep studies
18:42 or at least having discussions with folks
18:45 that were incredible in your life,
18:47 that didn't-- that threw God away
18:50 wrote a book on now kind of even be an atheist
18:54 so that the Bible is not real.
18:55 So I mean, you really were doing
18:56 some great stuff in that sense.
18:59 Did that-- did that play a part in this journey for you?
19:05 That actually came a little later.
19:07 So this is second big crisis. Okay.
19:10 But the outcome of this one was that God answered that prayer,
19:16 I need to see You.
19:17 And what I began to see was during my times in the Bible,
19:21 He would give me I think of them as revelations
19:27 just little insights big to me of Himself.
19:33 And His love
19:37 and His incredible wisdom in the way
19:40 He dealt with people and just the gentle kindness
19:44 and sometimes I mean it's just so moving it makes me cry.
19:48 He still does those things. Amen.
19:50 So that was a big and that was ten years ago.
19:53 But now the one you were just referring to
19:55 is the one I'm in the middle of right now.
19:58 And this one is more difficult
20:00 and seems to be talking much longer for Him
20:02 to get through to me.
20:04 What came about there was, I've been--
20:06 But if you believe though there when you making that statement
20:10 I want to just say to anybody listening to or,
20:13 you know, in the cafe is that you know,
20:17 there are when God gets closer and closer and closer
20:20 to our heart that some things I think do you seem like
20:24 they take longer but God said,
20:26 this is actually when I get through here,
20:30 you were just gonna so feel the warmth of who I am.
20:33 Not only understand My heart and understand My love for you
20:36 and understand that gentleness
20:38 but will be so close that you actually feel the warmth of it.
20:41 And so I think it is those layers that in our healing,
20:45 you know, like mine is way different than yours way,
20:48 you know, that I just have to trust
20:50 that I'm not gonna slam heroin tomorrow that's like.
20:53 Do you know what I mean it's so different?
20:55 But I-- even when you say that I just love,
21:00 you know, that is taken a while.
21:01 It does take-- yeah, I think it takes a while
21:03 and exactly surprised me.
21:04 Would you call yourself because I've always thought,
21:07 you know, would you call yourself,
21:11 you know, intellectual,
21:12 workaholic, religious addiction.
21:14 I mean what would you say
21:15 that if somebody had to put label on any of the stuff?
21:19 Would you put any of those recovery
21:21 kind of labels on at this point?
21:24 What I've come to realize
21:25 is that I have a very strong need for approval.
21:28 So it's approval addiction I don't know,
21:30 it manifest itself in that I'm a workaholic.
21:33 Okay, so let's go back to the now these crisis.
21:36 Yeah. What started it?
21:39 What started it is that about three year--
21:42 longer than that, five years ago or so
21:43 I started doing Bible studies
21:45 outside the church.
21:48 And my first was with a beautiful woman in her 60s
21:51 who was had been a prostitute and now she in her home
21:55 she has like all the neighborhood teens
21:57 are over her place all the time and there is--
21:59 house is filled with smoke and we got the Bible out
22:02 and she is just crying over it and it's so beautiful.
22:05 And she passed away before we finished but--
22:09 You do have studies with people
22:10 that are so just emotionally trash and addiction.
22:14 Yeah, where did this come from? I know.
22:16 How does God come up with putting me with them
22:18 I don't know what it is? But He's done it several times.
22:21 And more-- I've seen it.
22:22 Yeah, well and more recently you've seen the ones
22:24 that I've been studying with a group of men and women
22:27 who are currently addicts even or former addicts
22:32 and many of them are ex-cons.
22:35 And all kinds of abuse backgrounds
22:37 and very difficult--
22:38 They walk into Bible study and you can smell pot.
22:42 She can smell pot. Oh, sorry.
22:44 I don't have a clue. So, I'm sorry, that's true.
22:49 I don't have a clue, yeah.
22:51 So when that started you having these studies--
22:53 Yeah, and I study-- Outside the church.
22:55 I studied with one woman first say for a year
22:59 and then she was baptized
23:00 and she wanted to reach out to others like her.
23:03 And so we started inviting them in
23:06 and sometimes we would do
23:07 in like baby showers with this out risk moms
23:09 and then they would join our Bible study
23:11 and it's been awesome.
23:12 But baby showers for out risk moms.
23:14 In our church they-- what they would do
23:17 is they would put a ad in the paper.
23:19 If you are in this area and you don't have anyone
23:23 to help you deliver this baby just call us and they would be,
23:27 you know one was-- this is horrible--
23:28 Craig's list. Craig's list.
23:29 Horrible meth addict, she had, you know,
23:32 I don't want to say too much just because you know
23:34 I'm not at privilege to say
23:36 but I mean all of this kind of stuff having these babies
23:39 that are born into these situations.
23:40 And they're doing baby showers and getting beds
23:43 and blankets and bottles and all that kind of stuff.
23:45 And they would go to the hospital on the day
23:46 the babies deliver and sit there
23:48 where they're doing labor-- it's just been great.
23:50 It's just beautiful and really it's beautiful.
23:53 And for me I never been loved or nurtured
23:56 I just-- there were times I watched you guys
23:58 just thinking that how incredible
24:01 what you are offering to them.
24:03 Yeah. And at the same time--
24:05 At the same time there is a problem.
24:08 So it came-- it became very clear to me
24:10 one evening we were doing Bible study
24:13 and I think they were about
24:14 10 people in the room that night.
24:16 And we went around introducing because lots were new
24:18 and I realized that I was the only one in the room,
24:22 not only that had no tattoos or body piercings but had no--
24:26 We can get you on, no I'm sorry.
24:29 But had no background with any sort of chemical addiction,
24:33 no criminal record, no abuse background nothing.
24:37 I was the only one in the room.
24:39 And I was glad that they were there
24:41 to seeking God that was wonderful.
24:45 But then we started the Bible study
24:47 and I watched them glaze over.
24:51 And it made me realize
24:53 that what I was trying to communicate to them
24:56 wasn't coming across as relevant.
24:59 And I when I talked to them about God's love
25:02 it sounded hollow even to me.
25:06 And I could tell that it was because inside
25:09 I didn't have a deep personal understanding of God's love.
25:15 I hadn't experienced it myself.
25:16 So the joy and the hope of that couldn't come through.
25:20 And there was a quote in Steps to Christ,
25:24 we were starting to work on that book about that time.
25:27 And so immersed in the messages of the book
25:30 and experiencing that was--
25:33 God was working on me through that.
25:35 There is one quote in that book that says,
25:37 "That there can be no deep-seated
25:41 love for Jesus in our heart
25:43 that doesn't realize its own need."
25:46 That's huge. Yeah.
25:48 And what's really huge about that is
25:50 because-- you know even as you talked about your life
25:54 is that there is no part of it
25:56 that you can point out that says,
25:57 I wasn't loved and cared for and I had all my needs met
26:01 and I was in the great church and all that kind of stuff.
26:04 And so now God is saying,
26:05 you know, Fran, what's your need for Me?
26:07 Yeah. Why do you need Me?
26:08 Why is the blood of Christ important to you?
26:12 It was at that time that you said, one thing
26:14 that was really strategic for me
26:17 and that was that when you realize
26:21 the extent of the damage you have caused
26:25 it will make a big difference.
26:27 And so I asked God at that time show me--
26:29 Do you know, when I said that
26:31 I went home and cried for you?
26:33 And why I cried is because I thought,
26:36 you know-- my stuff is so out there
26:39 and the damage I caused is so out there
26:41 and I didn't have to-- and I'm looking at you
26:44 and I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable with this
26:48 but you're so gracious to folks and there is such a kindness
26:52 with who you are and that kind of stuff.
26:53 And I thought when she sees this,
26:56 she is gonna have to experience some pain.
26:58 And I just cried about that and I wanted to say
27:01 God, be gentle but then I don't
27:04 because I want-- I know that what you want,
27:06 what you saw for your whole life
27:08 is something that's very real.
27:10 And so, you know, whatever it takes to show her, her need.
27:15 She is asking for that right now.
27:17 And I'm-- so I asked Him,
27:20 show me and He has been showing.
27:24 I don't think He's done yet
27:26 but some of what I've began to see
27:27 is that I've been performance oriented most of my life.
27:35 It's that compensation for I'm not cool so I can be smart.
27:39 And I don't have--
27:42 I fear I'm not having intimacy with anyone.
27:47 And so I've backed into work and being in control
27:53 because that's almost as good as intimacy.
27:56 So you researched more to better projects.
27:59 I run the project, I'm in-charge.
28:01 I'm in control and I worked hard
28:03 and you'll notice.
28:06 I talked with somebody that you work with not in--
28:09 now I'm hoping that eventually you worked as fulltime for us
28:12 and we don't have to worry about sharing you with anyone.
28:15 But I talked with somebody that you worked with
28:18 and your real job and he said, no, I have to stay on my toes
28:23 because Fran is always on her toes.
28:25 And I mean, he really just said, you know,
28:27 I can't let up at all because she'd let's out.
28:31 Yeah, I don't, yeah.
28:32 And he said that with kindness.
28:34 Yeah. Yeah.
28:36 So gaining respect has been my substitute
28:41 for significance in intimacy
28:44 which I think are really things
28:45 that we're designed to need significance and intimacy--
28:49 Can you share with--
28:50 and this is kind of an odd thing
28:52 to share at this moment
28:53 but I thought about a story you told me about the prom.
28:58 Oh, yeah.
29:00 So I was a dorm student in high school
29:03 and attended a private Christian high school.
29:06 And my roommate stole my boyfriend on a music tour
29:12 and then just before the banquet
29:15 which is the equivalent in that school of a prom to seniors.
29:20 So obviously that's very painful
29:22 but I was in-charge of the banquet.
29:25 And so-- They were just attending.
29:27 They were just attending and though I experienced--
29:32 not only did it give me something to immerse myself in
29:35 but I experienced during that banquet
29:37 the sense of power that I was in control
29:40 and I was doing something significant
29:42 and they were just sitting there,
29:43 looking at each other.
29:45 And it was, it was high.
29:48 And it taught me very deeply
29:51 that the being in control makes me feel significant.
29:56 And decreases the pain.
29:58 I don't have to deal with the pain,
29:59 I don't have to deal with loneliness,
30:01 I don't have to deal with any of that kind of stuff
30:03 and I totally can get fed from the power.
30:10 And it should be sitting in the cafeteria at a table
30:12 all by yourself and feeling like a reject.
30:16 So, you know, to me it's hard for me
30:19 to understand that kind of addictive response
30:24 because it so-- it so looks great.
30:27 Do you know what I mean? It looks great.
30:30 You know, the next person that wants a banquet
30:32 and they're gonna call you.
30:33 I mean, you know, nobody is even sees
30:35 the need with me or an addict
30:38 if you slam heroin, if you got drinking,
30:39 or your whatever it's more obvious.
30:42 And so to me as you-- it's social acceptable
30:46 and so as God is leading you into a place
30:48 to say you know what, I'm gonna try to undo this
30:52 because it's doing the same thing
30:53 that any other addict experiences,
30:56 even the same breakdown in your intimacy
31:00 and your family and your life
31:03 but you've got to see the damage.
31:06 And so now He's doing that with you.
31:09 I remember giving you-- telling you
31:11 one of my favorite books was Inside Out,
31:13 looking at kind of all of our stuff
31:15 and saying you know Fran,
31:17 this may be a book that you want to look at.
31:19 Yeah, that was a very important book for me.
31:21 One of the verses that the book references
31:24 was just pivotal for me in this journey.
31:26 It was-- I think it's in Isaiah that God says,
31:30 "My people have committed a double evil.
31:32 They have turned for me, the source of living water
31:35 and hew for themselves cisterns,
31:38 broken cisterns they cannot hold water."
31:41 It's the turning away is the first evil
31:44 to find a different substitute.
31:46 A different source.
31:47 A difference source for the thirst of the soul.
31:50 And for me the thirst was intimacy and significance
31:53 and I found a substitute outside of Him.
31:56 What was really tough for you,
32:01 probably most of you know or for anybody
32:04 that is actually incredible,
32:07 you know, intellectually and all that kind of stuff
32:09 is your cistern was very pretty good.
32:12 You know, you found a way that it hardly even leaked.
32:15 And one evidence of it came to me as--
32:20 after you asked me that question was,
32:23 I had to admit that in my prayer time,
32:28 there is never any confession, almost never.
32:32 I couldn't think anything to confess.
32:34 I mean, occasionally I have like critical time
32:37 or sometimes I'm impatient.
32:39 I've never seen it.
32:41 And yeah, I mean and so once in a while
32:43 there is some small thing to confess
32:45 but generally there is not.
32:47 And for-- if I were honest
32:49 I would have to admit that for me
32:52 the cross fell like overkill.
32:56 So what do you mean by that, the cross fell like overkill?
32:59 Like, did you have to actually go that far?
33:02 God had to pour out all of heaven
33:04 and Jesus had to die because I'm sometimes impatient.
33:08 You got to be kidding?
33:09 Wow, wow. That's worth it.
33:11 I mean, I don't think I had ever said that
33:13 to myself consciously
33:15 but when I was really honest looking inside
33:19 that's what I saw, was for my hell is that.
33:24 So where did he go from there?
33:27 I mean, you know, where did he go
33:29 from there was like God, can you show me,
33:31 why it's not overkill?
33:32 Can you show me?
33:33 Yeah. That's why that--
33:35 Can I survive when You show it to me?
33:37 That's why that question you asked was so important.
33:41 What's the extent of the damage You've caused?
33:44 And when I asked God, He showed me things like
33:48 the damage I had caused to my kids
33:49 because I'm so performance oriented
33:52 that's the way I raised them.
33:54 And for them to relate to God
33:57 because of that has been very difficult from my side.
34:00 He completely rebelled, turned completely against God.
34:05 And it took for him a trip into alcoholism
34:08 and recovery through a day
34:10 before he finally connected with the God
34:12 that was he could view as for Him.
34:15 That's incredible, even for you to see
34:19 how painful was that, to think that maybe my escape
34:24 what I used to survive actually almost killed him.
34:29 Yeah, it's-- what I'm finding honestly
34:34 is that it's taking God a while to touch me
34:37 emotionally with this stuff.
34:39 There still a numbness in here that He's having to work on.
34:43 I don't think He is through showing me.
34:45 But seeing James struggle like
34:47 that it's been very, very difficult.
34:50 For Bob it's also a big revelation
34:54 as you heard earlier Bob's got his own journey of pain
34:58 but I didn't know it and didn't understand at all
35:01 the issues that I saw.
35:03 From me it just looked
35:04 that he had a bad attitude and a bad temper.
35:06 And so straighten up and start being a victim
35:09 there was I think I added to his burden
35:14 because of what I was at.
35:17 And what I love about God because some of the stuff
35:21 that God does have to show us in our journey,
35:24 in our denial and the fact that for one-- for a little girl
35:29 you really did find something that worked-- it worked well.
35:32 I didn't have to deal with the pain of--
35:34 of not being the cool kid and all that kind of stuff
35:37 or you know, that it worked so well.
35:39 But then the God says,
35:40 if you truly do want to recover,
35:42 if you truly do want to connect with me
35:44 I have to expose the stuff, I have to be able to do that.
35:49 And I think it breaks His heart when He has to do that for us.
35:52 I think so.
35:54 You know, for me it's been a huge attack on--
36:00 I call it an attack it feels that way,
36:02 on my sense of integrity
36:04 because everything that I have thought
36:07 I was a deep follower of God and very sincere in my faith
36:12 and all tshose things
36:13 looks like it's not real if it's just fake.
36:18 I mean there is no real connection with him,
36:19 that's not vital.
36:20 If I have nothing to say to anyone
36:24 who has got a serious need
36:26 because I haven't encountered it myself,
36:29 to me this is a huge integrity issue.
36:31 And it challenges everything I thought I was.
36:36 What's gonna be interesting is
36:38 when He weaves our back together
36:40 and shows you that you've always had
36:42 that heart for Him and that heart for people
36:44 and the love for your child
36:46 so that your addiction has disconnected you on some level
36:50 but it was very real journey.
36:52 And you said that even before is that when--
36:54 I in the midst of this journey I did feel the presence of God
36:57 and I did feel love, I did feel all that
37:00 and so I think that on the other side
37:02 is that that we've been back together.
37:04 But in addiction and studying you know,
37:09 there are times was-- with people
37:10 that have those cleaner addictions,
37:13 workaholism or religious addictions or perfectionism,
37:16 that performance addictions,
37:18 approval addiction is that we look at those are so clean
37:22 but when they actually look at family dynamics,
37:25 the family dynamics are the same as an addict,
37:29 as an alcoholic that as the-- you know,
37:31 because the woes and the dysfunction
37:33 and that disconnect intimately
37:36 and our intimacies are the same.
37:37 Same style.
37:38 And so that's what God is showing you now.
37:40 Yeah, and it's the same thing,
37:42 the same problem of substituting one thing
37:45 for the only thing that can ever satisfy
37:47 what's needed inside you.
37:49 I mean, I'm substituting you are substituting,
37:52 everybody is substituting something for God
37:55 and He is the only one that can fill it.
37:57 And what God is asking us for really a connection with Him
38:00 and then a connection with each other.
38:02 That what we seek in order to protect us on intimate level
38:06 we're actually seeking in a real sense from Him.
38:10 That's right. That's absolutely right.
38:12 You know, what's to me I just got to say,
38:14 we're gonna open it up for questions
38:16 but I just love you.
38:17 I love your journey and I know it's not easy
38:20 and for people that have in their mind
38:23 really strive to do the right thing
38:26 and be right and not act out
38:28 and not do all that kind of stuff
38:30 it's really tough when you look at possibly
38:35 how you did it was done addictively
38:38 and allowing God to gently come in
38:41 and start to say, this is how you're gonna get freedom.
38:45 This is how you're gonna get real connection.
38:47 Or even show you what's actually inside.
38:51 I've noticed that a lot of folks
38:52 aren't really comfortable with that
38:53 and I didn't really get it at first
38:55 because it felt like sort of wallowing and something
38:58 but if you don't see what's going on
39:01 you know, this all that feels no need
39:04 can have no deep-seated love for Jesus.
39:05 You've got to see what's really going on inside
39:08 if He's ever gonna be able to draw you
39:09 to His solution for it.
39:14 I just think that's so right on, it's so spot on.
39:17 It's a hard thing to do though. It is hard.
39:19 We're gonna open it for questions.
39:20 I know that Karen, you had a question.
39:23 Yes, my name is Karen Owen and my journey is somewhat like
39:27 yours except I wasn't born--
39:29 I didn't come into Adventist faith--
39:31 I came into with Adventist faith
39:32 and wasn't born an Adventist.
39:34 And my toughest journey has been accepting
39:37 that God loves me,
39:38 I'm a performance person too you know,
39:41 what people see is very important to me.
39:44 And I always wanted to be loved but never felt I was loved.
39:48 And so when I come to God
39:50 you know, my thing is does He really love me?
39:53 I know He says that, how are you adjusting
39:55 to changing from this performance
39:58 into letting God be the one
40:00 who motivates you into what you do
40:02 because of His love for you?
40:04 How do you change over to that?
40:08 You know, for me I think what it's been
40:10 is that everyday now,
40:15 I'm taking everything to Him and asking Him,
40:19 what am I doing, what do you see inside?
40:22 Show me what you see?
40:24 And He does and that if--
40:28 like going for a walk with Him every morning
40:32 and taking those things to Him
40:34 and things I back with, by the end of my walk,
40:36 I sometimes come back in tears because He is so kind,
40:40 but He is so deep at what He shows
40:42 and so right on and I'm learning to love Him
40:48 and feel to His love just by communicating with Him.
40:52 That's how it's working for me.
40:54 I got to tell you Karen,
40:55 to you is there is something else
40:56 that I have seen along this journey
40:57 because I have gotten
40:58 to be a part of the journey with Fran,
41:00 is that she has been vulnerable and shared it with us.
41:05 They shared-- she shared it with the people
41:07 that she loves at church, has kind of opened up.
41:10 And so now when I say, oh, man,
41:13 because she is just changed, she is brilliant.
41:16 We will have a project and the project is great
41:20 and she steps in and does a few things
41:23 and it's not only great it's brilliant,
41:24 it's off the chart.
41:26 And I'll say great job.
41:27 And someone will say that's like handing her a joint.
41:30 That's like giving her some pot, you know.
41:32 It's like don't tell her great job,
41:33 she a workaholic.
41:35 And so but it actually come out almost
41:38 as a, a little bit of a joke
41:40 that we are we are allowed into her space,
41:43 we are allowed in to that part of her
41:46 and I don't know if it helps you to know that,
41:50 you know, we can joke around about it,
41:51 you're okay nobody is moving away from you.
41:53 Yeah, and what you're reference to
41:55 I think also is our Bible study group at church,
41:58 we've been-- this is been really important
42:01 and I think it's really relevant topic about
42:04 social support that, this Bible study group
42:07 we are going through that inside out book together
42:11 and its no but no teacher
42:14 so I don't come to class with lesson plan anymore
42:16 with all my research done
42:18 and ready to teach everyone, we don't do that.
42:21 We come and we just share venerably and--
42:25 We have people that join us online all over the world.
42:28 Yeah, even-- yeah,
42:29 And for--
42:30 for you they come without a lesson plan that is huge.
42:34 I never do that, I'm never, not prepared.
42:37 I'm here with no script today which is also big.
42:40 No script.
42:41 No script and what was really funny to me
42:44 cracked me up, she sent me a script,
42:46 you know, you hear some stuff what do you thinking?
42:49 And today she comes and she says did you read it?
42:53 I say, no.
42:54 She is like you didn't even read it?
42:56 And so it is really funny
42:58 'cause God is pressing in all kind of areas.
43:01 Yeah, and it's really been good
43:03 because the thing I'm discovering
43:04 is that I really need the other people--
43:07 whole healing thing happens when we share
43:10 and we need Him working
43:13 and that happens in communities it seems.
43:16 And with performance addictions,
43:18 with approval addiction, one other the things
43:20 that I think that God is able to show
43:23 is that you are delightful.
43:25 You know, what I mean from prom--
43:26 Even if I'm not prepared.
43:27 Even if you're not prepared or even if I'm not in-charge
43:29 or even if don't know the answer you're delightful
43:32 and the people around you enjoy that about you.
43:35 So I think that in our--
43:36 and the healing part of it is first being vulnerable,
43:39 saying it out load to somebody to God in a twelve-step to God
43:43 and then another human being that this is what I deal with
43:46 and these performance addictions
43:49 are harder to say out lot
43:50 because we want to say an addict wants to say,
43:52 oh, get over it.
43:53 You're like fine.
43:54 That only-- have you ever even lied?
43:56 You know, we want to do that to you,
43:57 don't let us do that to you.
43:59 This is a really intense deep heart issue.
44:04 It has protected you for a long time
44:06 to the determinant of your intimate--
44:08 intimacy with those around you and God misses you, misses you.
44:13 You don't have to perform for Him.
44:15 So I have to tell you what God told me
44:18 the other day when I went walking with Him.
44:21 So I asked Him, how do I see more of Your love?
44:27 And immediately the answer was, look at people.
44:32 And so I'm asking Him well why?
44:34 And He says, look in their eyes and see the pain.
44:44 Don't dissenter yourself from that.
44:47 What's really interesting is in the Bible study
44:50 that you run now, there were some tragedies
44:54 that happened there
44:55 and you step in more real into the room.
44:59 Yeah, one of our girls struggled with anger, drugs,
45:06 she had been abused as a child
45:07 and she took her own life a few months ago
45:11 and its been terribly difficult for the whole group
45:17 and we have others that are really struggling
45:20 that seems to be contagious I don't know,
45:22 but that just downwards spirals amongst the group.
45:27 And at that point-- that because I know the way
45:30 you're dealing with as far as your own addictive
45:34 response to pain is that they--
45:36 that you weren't willing to go back to that
45:39 and just get more prepared and walk in the group.
45:41 You wanted to be more real in walking the group.
45:43 So you really did say God,
45:46 "That I'm not on familiar ground here
45:49 but help me to walk in,
45:50 give something to actually offer."
45:52 Yeah, everything now feels that way to me.
45:55 I feel like I'm instead of coming
45:59 prepared with tons of research
46:00 I'm coming with my heart wide open.
46:03 I love that, you know, because I-- it's different
46:07 but I think that that we actually get
46:09 to hangout with you in a better way
46:13 and even though your preparation is genius.
46:16 Yeah. I love that too.
46:17 So I'm now-- Bob, this Bob McKain,
46:21 married to Fran and you had a question?
46:25 So you know the thing
46:26 that we used to say about Fran is that,
46:28 you know, she is practically perfect
46:30 and you know, living with her all the time,
46:32 you know, the one thing I just have to ask is that,
46:34 you know, see is that you know,
46:36 she is still engages in the workaholism.
46:40 You know, it just-- it didn't like just go away.
46:43 So, you know, how you're dealing with that?
46:47 Yeah, you know-- And this is from your husband.
46:49 Yeah, it's really true that sort of like
46:51 asking Cheri was still doing heroin hits.
46:53 Because it's really true.
46:54 I mean even working on these books to me
46:57 was a huge challenge
47:00 because dead lines were looming
47:03 and I mean it was 80 hours a week or more
47:06 to get those books finished.
47:08 Well, you know, that's definitely my addiction.
47:11 So what I love and like what you said
47:14 you're in the middle of the process,
47:15 so in the middle of the process
47:17 it's like I think that you will see--
47:19 you'll begin to even set boundaries on us
47:21 and deadlines and that kind of stuff,
47:23 hopefully not this week
47:26 because you know, we have some deadlines.
47:28 Like I had two hours of sleep last night.
47:30 I know, but what's really hard
47:32 I think for you more so than me as people understand
47:35 when I say oh, I can't drink,
47:36 I can't use and I can't do drugs
47:38 but with you when they said you can't finish their project,
47:41 they not gonna understand this much.
47:43 So I think it's a little bit tougher
47:45 with an approval or performance addiction
47:47 because, everybody wants you to do it.
47:52 It is, it's true and I'm actually
47:54 even working with the counselor right now,
47:56 to try get deeper into, why do I keep doing this?
48:00 You know, its not-- I think there is approval addiction
48:04 is definitely a piece of it and I can see the roots of that
48:07 but I'm also learning that I have a problem
48:10 setting boundaries for myself inside.
48:12 Exactly. Inside boundaries.
48:14 Shut the computer off at nine and go to bed.
48:17 What's-- we're gonna ahead and take a break and come back
48:21 and I want to ask you a couple questions about that
48:23 if you would join me for the close that would be great.
48:27 But ask you a couple questions about that
48:28 because this is a tough one to switchover
48:32 and I want to ask you, why-- why even do it?
48:36 And it's a lot of work.
48:37 And so we're gonna come back,
48:38 if you have one of these approval addictions
48:40 or performance additions know that God misses you
48:44 and you can set boundaries
48:45 and you can do all that kind of stuff.
48:47 Join us for the close because I think that
48:50 well, Fran has to say about why work so hard
48:53 it's gonna be good stuff.