Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Wayne Blakely
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000119B
00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to addictive behavior.
00:05 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:06 may be too candid for younger children.
00:17 Welcome back.
00:18 You know, I want to introduce you
00:20 to a friend of mine, Wayne Blakely.
00:22 He has a ministry called 'Coming Out' Ministries.
00:24 And Wayne, we've had you on the program before.
00:27 I don't know if I ever talked about
00:30 just the journey over the years
00:32 and all of the sudden your whole perspective
00:33 becomes different on what you've gone through,
00:36 what you want to say
00:38 and how you're gonna step out in ministry.
00:40 And so I want you to take us back to the beginning.
00:42 You shared it before so we're not going to cover it too much
00:45 but then what is your journey look like
00:46 and can you relate to anything that I just talked about?
00:51 You know I have to touch first a little bit on that brokenness
00:54 and the different things that you are receiving from both,
00:57 your mother and from your father
00:59 and your experiences and your childhood
01:02 have a lot to do with how my beginning was.
01:04 And that was basically the people
01:07 that were around my natural mother
01:08 during her pregnancy over heard her
01:11 or they would ask her you know,
01:13 you are gonna have a boy or you're going to have a girl
01:15 and she's like, absolutely having a girl,
01:17 there's no way I am having a boy.
01:19 And she said that over and over and over again.
01:22 She was very adamant about it.
01:24 And so when she had me,
01:26 imagine, you know she was disappointed,
01:28 she was grief stricken,
01:30 there was no bonding and so in that
01:35 she still wanted me to be a girl.
01:37 And we were on an air force base
01:39 and so my father was gone most of the time on assignments
01:43 and he would come home and the neighbors would say,
01:47 we think that your son's being abused
01:48 and he will be like, well, mind your business.
01:50 I think you are just being nosey neighbors.
01:52 And what they found was he came home one time
01:57 from an assignment and found my arm in a sling
02:00 before I was two years old
02:02 and come to find out
02:03 my mother had broken my arm in two places.
02:06 So when, you know,
02:07 when you talk about your background sometimes
02:10 and I think that what people say
02:11 is just her disappointment of having a boy
02:13 but she was enraged by having a boy.
02:15 Literally violent, taking it out on you.
02:18 I don't want to touch this kid, feed this kid or whatever.
02:21 And people were trying to protect you
02:23 but you and her were the only ones in the home.
02:25 Right. Right.
02:27 And so it really to mind for a lot of people
02:30 right away that question, oh, can you be born gay?
02:33 And I am telling you, absolute, because of the set up.
02:38 You look at the pre-natal experience that--
02:40 First of all, are you gay?
02:43 I am sorry. I am like, really, is that--
02:45 We have to finish the interview, Cheri.
02:46 I'm sorry. Let's do it.
02:49 No, I am kidding. But not anymore.
02:51 What so-- what's really interesting
02:53 is that even with that kind of things
02:56 that you were saying that I think because of her anger,
03:00 her rejection, all of that stuff
03:02 is that from day one I defiantly wanted a girl.
03:07 I was set up and then, you know, just most recently,
03:11 and I even talked to you little bit about
03:13 it was the absentee father.
03:15 So I have the abuse by the mother
03:18 who is not making me want to go,
03:20 move towards a woman for affection
03:23 and then I have an absentee father
03:25 who's never there, he's never on the base,
03:27 so it's almost like being a single parent.
03:29 But the only thing I can began to identify
03:31 some kind of safety with this maybe perhaps a male,
03:34 when I come in contact with a male
03:36 I knew very young that I was attracted to men
03:40 probably because of the abuse coming from my mother.
03:43 I so didn't want to be around women,
03:45 they were not safe?
03:46 Right, right.
03:49 So in my earliest years
03:52 I began to find myself drawn to men
03:55 and wanting to be affirmed
03:56 and I wanted warmth and I wanted love.
03:59 I come to find out here
04:01 when we are born there's three things that we all want.
04:05 We want to be loved,
04:06 and we want to belong, and we want to matter.
04:10 And I didn't feel like--
04:11 Any of those. Any of those.
04:14 And you know, like I just cringe
04:17 because I know some people watching the program
04:19 are gonna say, I don't want to deal with gay issues.
04:22 This is not primarily a gay issue.
04:24 This is a child that just never got to be safe.
04:27 It's a love issue.
04:28 And you know, like I-- because you are my friend
04:31 I've heard you talk about even your dad,
04:32 you were very protecting of him,
04:34 you really having dealt a lot with that issue
04:38 yet about him being gone and you know,
04:40 just like even saying that you know,
04:43 you never had the chance of laying on somebody's chest
04:46 and just being held even as an infant.
04:48 I sort of saw him I guess as I look at back at her
04:51 and trying to digest it all now about dealing with them--
04:55 I dealt with the female aspect of it.
04:57 Now the male aspect, in some ways
05:00 I saw him as my savior
05:02 because he saw the abuse that was taking place
05:04 and put me up for adoption by my aunt and my uncle.
05:08 But it masked the fact
05:11 that I really needed to have connected to him.
05:14 And had not and did not even after the adoption?
05:16 Right. Yeah, to some degree.
05:18 I saw him every couple of summers or something
05:21 but he was very withdrawn,
05:23 very quiet, it wasn't-- I might as well be--
05:26 he might as well have been an uncle and not my father.
05:30 So you then jump out into a lifestyle,
05:35 not only a lifestyle because you did get pretty twisted.
05:38 I did.
05:40 And so you know, we talked about that,
05:42 jumped into prostitution, did all kind of stuffs and--
05:46 but this how can I want to say on, you find Christ.
05:50 So bring us to that point and then the ministry
05:52 and what is your passion today?
05:54 We're talking about integrity, we're talking about change,
05:56 we're talking about a maintaining.
05:58 How do you maintain your--
06:01 not sobriety but your absent your lifestyle?
06:05 Well, when I finally came back in touch with God
06:10 or when I really got in touch with God for the first time
06:15 He brought a lot of things to my mind.
06:19 You know, I was sitting in my bedroom
06:22 in front of my computer
06:24 and I was contemplating the fact
06:25 that all of my gay friends were dead now,
06:27 every last one of them.
06:28 And God said to me, so can you hear Me now?
06:32 And He also began to reveal a lot of things to me
06:34 and He says, you know what Wayne,
06:36 you've put a lot on Me.
06:38 You blamed Me for your hurt, you blamed Me for your pain,
06:42 you blamed Me for the dysfunction in your life
06:46 that you turned out this way.
06:48 You've laid all that on Me but really do you know Me?
06:53 Because you haven't really come to My love letter to you.
06:57 You haven't immersed yourself in the Word of God
07:01 and you haven't spend time with Me in prayer
07:04 and maybe you've been praying for the wrong things like,
07:07 I want to give you all the best for your life
07:10 because you're best interest are in My heart
07:12 but your prayer was, please, God, make me straight.
07:16 And Wayne, it wasn't about making you straight,
07:19 it was about building an intimate relationship
07:22 with Me as your father.
07:23 And loving you. And loving you.
07:26 And then realizing that it is possible
07:28 that at some point in your walk with Me
07:30 I might put in front of you
07:32 the one woman, the one woman.
07:34 I am not asking you to fall in love
07:35 with the entire female population
07:38 but in your walk with Me as you begin to trust Me
07:41 and know Me that I only want the best for you,
07:43 I have gifts lined up for you along the way.
07:46 And so I invited Him in
07:48 and I said, I don't know how you can take me
07:51 knowing where I've been and I've been in the gutter,
07:56 you know, I've done every drug that I knew about.
08:00 I had slept with every man
08:02 that was willing to sleep with me
08:05 and looking for love in all the wrong places.
08:12 Even if I had landed on one man
08:15 as monogamous relationship
08:16 and been happy in that
08:18 it still wouldn't have been what God's plan for me was.
08:21 So the enemy doesn't care how he can you know,
08:24 get the deception across as long as he can get us across.
08:27 And so in coming back to Christ
08:28 I had to begin to recognize slowly
08:32 but surely what God's plan for me is,
08:34 what is that walk like today?
08:36 And I came back into a spiritual environment,
08:40 a Christian environment in a great state of adversity
08:46 you know, because the church leaders,
08:49 the congregational members
08:51 they had all these expectations of me that I had,
08:53 had on me before I walked away from the church.
08:57 In what sense, because you know,
08:58 I am gonna assume I know what you are talking about
09:00 but I don't want to assume in your sense.
09:01 Like when I am baptized and I go under the water gay,
09:04 that I come up straight.
09:06 That I immediately have an erotic desire for women.
09:10 That I am going to marry,
09:11 that that's gonna make me acceptable to Jesus Christ
09:13 that threw something like reparative therapy.
09:16 If they can make me feel the things
09:18 that I felt towards a man
09:19 and fell it towards a woman that, that will fix me.
09:23 Or what if it did?
09:25 And I started chasing all the women that I can find.
09:27 And sleeping with all of them?
09:28 Sure. So, now let's not think of me.
09:29 Because we-- and I love,
09:31 I love that what you are saying
09:32 because we're talking about integrity
09:33 and we're talking about who we are,
09:35 and we get lost in the issue,
09:36 whatever the hot button issue is.
09:38 What God is saying, you know what,
09:40 it is bigger than any issue
09:41 is that I've got this kid that has been rejected
09:45 even in the womb pretty much
09:47 and defiantly all his life was then adopted
09:50 then in the lifestyle that just beat him up
09:53 and he beat others up and then all the sudden
09:56 now I am trying to literally show who I am, who he is,
10:00 and we're trying to make it about an issue.
10:02 And God is just like, man.
10:04 Yeah, you know, I sometimes I am accused
10:07 of not being an advocate for gays
10:09 and I am thinking you know,
10:11 I am one of the biggest advocate for gays
10:13 that I know and that I want to help them come back
10:17 and give God another chance.
10:19 That they got alienated, they got ostracized,
10:23 they got shut out by people who were ignorant.
10:25 And in their ignorant did some terrible, terrible things.
10:29 I was victim of some of those things.
10:31 So example, not that we need examples,
10:34 I am not trying to beat anybody up
10:35 but what's an example of what happened
10:38 because God has worked on you for a long time,
10:40 coming into a spiritual environment
10:42 or to a healthier environment
10:44 and somebody says or does what?
10:48 They say something--
10:50 well, one of the first things that were said to me was that,
10:52 I don't know that your testimonies will be good
10:55 until three to ten years from now.
10:57 And that really hurt me
11:00 when I was coming back to Christ
11:02 because from what I previously known about God
11:04 because I had Christian parents that adopted me
11:08 and the studies that I had done as a kid was that I--
11:12 from what I found in God's word
11:14 is my testimony was as good as the day
11:16 as I accepted Jesus Christ which would have been the same
11:19 for like Mary Magdalene.
11:21 But because of your background
11:23 is they want to make sure you don't fall,
11:24 you don't get tempted, you don't do anything
11:26 before you could say anything.
11:27 They don't require that from me
11:29 but they're gonna require that from you.
11:30 And I get the--
11:31 Because when he says, have you ever been tempted,
11:33 your response is what?
11:36 It's one of the favorite questions
11:38 that I like in our Q and A today.
11:41 I am asked that question quite frequently
11:44 and I guess I've learned almost enjoying
11:47 my response and that is, are you?
11:49 Are you tempted?
11:50 Because why would God take my temptations away
11:53 and not take your's away?
11:56 And how can you judge me so harshly,
11:58 I am just trying to stand? Yeah.
12:00 I think that because we put this issue,
12:03 this thing that we refuse to talk about in Christianity
12:07 for so many years,
12:08 the thing that you don't talk about get's the crown.
12:12 And so it became, you know, the focus of like,
12:16 how could you possibly?
12:18 Where as when you're doing
12:19 something like there's a lot of other things
12:21 that either have gotten whitewash
12:23 or they are covered up and still other things
12:25 that we don't talk about today.
12:27 And the fact of the matter is that there's not any sin
12:30 that's not repulsive to Jesus Christ.
12:33 So it doesn't matter what I suffer today
12:35 and I find that when I speak in churches and schools today
12:39 that when I began to talk about temptation
12:43 that I start hitting some nerves with people
12:45 because they-- whether it's diet
12:47 or whether it's pornography, adultery,
12:51 same-sex attraction, no matter--
12:52 Religions addiction. Religions addiction.
12:55 Yes, no matter what it is.
12:58 If it's something that there's a barrier
13:00 between you and your real relationship
13:03 that's offered to you by Jesus Christ
13:05 you know, it's an atrocity.
13:08 You know it's something that we need to examine.
13:10 James 5:16 tells us to come together
13:13 and confess our sins one to another
13:15 and pray for each other
13:16 for the healing that is promised.
13:19 And the enemy, you know,
13:20 Satan is trying to hold this away from doing that.
13:23 And today it is about community,
13:24 it is about a love message,
13:26 but it's not about the love message
13:27 from like the flower powered era,
13:31 you know, there are things out there today
13:33 that are telling people that you are okay
13:35 just the way you are.
13:36 You know, there's a film out there today,
13:39 a film called Seventh-Gay Adventist
13:42 that is saying you know,
13:43 it pains me because when I watch this film
13:46 I see three same sex couples accept themselves
13:50 for who they are and say Jesus love me
13:53 just the way I am, so you love me too.
13:57 And there's so much truth to that.
13:59 Jesus does love you just the way you are
14:02 but He doesn't want to leave you there.
14:05 And so it's about an intimate walk with Jesus Christ today
14:08 and finding out what's His plan for me is.
14:11 And if I settled for what my feeling were
14:14 I would be robbing myself from a relationship
14:17 that I can have with Jesus Christ.
14:18 Because you are saying that He's capable of taking us
14:21 further than that in our healing?
14:24 And as we settle--
14:25 because we're settling this for as far as especially
14:27 our sexuality is like you know,
14:31 we are saying that,
14:32 you know, people should be ordained
14:36 that are same-sex, defiantly accepted in the church,
14:39 monogamous relationship,
14:40 marriage and all that kind of stuff.
14:42 And what's really sad for me
14:43 because to get into those issues
14:45 because I know I have friends that struggled with this stuff.
14:49 And so I don't want to--
14:50 I want to say to the people that I love is man,
14:53 that I am glad it's not my issue
14:56 because those are very core issues,
14:57 that's who we are, it's our identity
14:59 and so being able to literally trust God with our journey.
15:04 You know, I just believe that
15:08 here's God's word's is to us for all time.
15:11 He says He's the same yesterday,
15:13 today and tomorrow.
15:15 I don't believe that God is a tricky God,
15:17 that He's gonna withhold from us
15:20 permissions to follow our feeling.
15:22 If it were okay for me to have this kind of love,
15:25 the kind of love you have for your husband,
15:27 if that was the kind of love
15:29 I should be able to have for another same-sex
15:32 attracted individual it wouldn't be fair for me
15:36 if God wasn't going to tell me about that
15:38 and then just maybe surprise me
15:40 at His second coming and say,
15:41 oh, you could had that relationship all along.
15:44 He's not a tricky God,
15:45 He loves us so much but let's dig into that
15:48 and find out what is that love.
15:50 And what if God is calling me to celibacy
15:53 same as He would for a heterosexual individual
15:56 who haven't found a husband or a wife yet.
16:00 Is it worth it--
16:02 is it worth it to fall in love with Him
16:04 and no more intimately Jesus Christ
16:06 and His plan for me
16:08 or is that my choice to go ahead
16:11 and settle for what feel best to me
16:13 and the sacrifice eternity.
16:18 So now I am gonna ask you because you know,
16:20 even for somebody that is single and choosing--
16:25 to try to do it with the right way in relation
16:28 and all that kind of stuff
16:29 as we are talking about integrity
16:30 and how to maintain our recovery.
16:32 And so maintenance, I mean,
16:34 when you step out of a whole lifestyle
16:36 and you step out of you know the relationship
16:39 that you had and the way
16:41 that you learned to receive love or give love
16:45 you know, what does that look like?
16:48 It looks like this,
16:50 when I am tempted it's a reminder
16:53 that this is a cross that I carry
16:55 because every one of us are born with a fallen nature
16:59 that Satan has tried to impose a bunch of lies on us.
17:03 His first lie to me was of being unwanted
17:06 and Jesus is constantly saying to me,
17:08 but you are wanted,
17:09 you are loved and you do belong
17:11 and you can't keep going this way to get affirmation on that
17:16 because people might let you down
17:17 and have let you down
17:19 when you thought they did love you.
17:21 It's about this relationship
17:23 and that's the only one that saves.
17:25 And the only way I am gonna have that relationship
17:28 is if I am spending any kind of quality time with Him.
17:33 But I am seeing you also develop friendships
17:36 so that you really get to laugh
17:39 with somebody in a healthy way.
17:40 So you know, and I know that now
17:43 we had Michael on the show and you guys are good friend.
17:47 You know, I am praying that you and I
17:49 become better and better friends.
17:50 You know whatever--
17:51 because every time we were together
17:53 I just realize that I really do--
17:55 I mean, I am just like you.
17:57 I liked who you are and your journey
17:59 and all that kind of stuff.
18:00 So you really need to start developing those things
18:02 so that you can have some flesh.
18:05 Well, God wants us to have community,
18:08 He wants us to be--
18:09 well, He created us to be relative with one another.
18:11 And He think as all--
18:13 as long as it continues to bring Him glory
18:16 that that's who He would have as you know,
18:19 get a grounding with.
18:22 You know, coming together and studying together,
18:24 sharing what-- you know,
18:25 Mike has shared with me things that he's learned.
18:28 I look to him and listen to him a lot about his walk
18:31 and the things that He has studied out,
18:32 the influences that God has given to him
18:35 and God has given me different ones.
18:37 My ministry is more to congregations
18:40 and to church leadership and Mike has a unique ability
18:45 to be able to reach out to all kinds of people,
18:47 mainly towards you know, youth and just has you know,
18:51 a real spirit of being able to communicate with others,
18:53 you know, really well.
18:54 So one of the things that you do
18:56 as first is your own recovery maintenance
18:57 is connection with another people.
18:59 The accountability.
19:02 What does that mean exactly?
19:03 Because somebody will say,
19:04 accountability, what does that mean?
19:05 Accountability to me is being honest with one another.
19:09 I am honest-- If I get on the phone with Mike
19:12 and he knows you know,
19:13 he'll get calls out of the blue sometimes
19:16 and I say, you know I am really struggling with this
19:18 or if he maybe hasn't heard from me for a bit
19:20 he might call me and say,
19:21 you know, I haven't heard from you for a while,
19:24 you know, what's going on?
19:25 You know, you are just been busy with ministry
19:27 or you know, what kinds of issues are you dealing with.
19:30 I have a small community group in my church
19:33 which I've been part of for the last four years
19:36 and they know the ins and outs of my life,
19:38 they keep tabs on me, they call me,
19:40 I call them, we pray together,
19:42 they support me, it's very beautiful
19:45 but yet the integrity is so key
19:49 and so important because people can get the idea
19:52 that I am like fixed, you know.
19:55 And I am still broken.
19:57 You know, and I guess even at the beginning
19:59 when I say that it's like whenever we lie to ourselves
20:02 that like even for me,
20:04 that I am fixed I accept the Christ,
20:06 I got baptized, I understood it all
20:09 and as I am with God He unfolds it,
20:11 and I didn't understand anything.
20:13 Even to this day I look at how He brings healing
20:17 and I think we really are--
20:18 I don't know our sanctification process
20:21 is never a fixing process and so you know,
20:23 for you to say as I put people around me
20:25 so that I can do that journey and do that journey honestly.
20:30 Yeah. I get reminders.
20:38 I shared this with you, just trying not to do this.
20:42 That's all right.
20:43 I shared this with you already since I got here
20:46 but I get reminders you know,
20:47 all the time about my brokenness and you know,
20:51 it's the simplest of things sometimes
20:53 but on the journey here on the flight here you know,
20:56 I sat next to a man and his wife
21:00 and we were both I believe in short selves shirts
21:05 and my arm hit the arm rest about the same time his did
21:10 and there was this warmth of flesh next to me--
21:13 and as you know today, my life today
21:16 is without any kind of physical affirmation of any kind.
21:21 My relation today is between me and Jesus Christ.
21:24 But that coming together of that warm flesh
21:27 hitting somebody else's warm flesh
21:30 took me back in my head
21:32 to that yearning to want to belong,
21:35 to want to be connected with someone.
21:39 And I understand those feelings.
21:41 So anyone who is watching you know,
21:44 please know a widow or a widower,
21:46 a same-sex attractive person,
21:48 a single person who is never married
21:51 who yearns for that physical warmth,
21:55 it's not wrong to want that
21:58 but it's only right
22:00 to do it in the way that God intended.
22:03 So you-- but I want to say again
22:05 as like when you said that bring people around you,
22:08 what I am learning through just connection
22:11 is that we are meant to connect with each other,
22:14 we are meant to laugh with each other,
22:16 we are meant to reach out and touch each other,
22:18 we are mean to sit there and like even say, amen,
22:21 that was funny and touch each other
22:23 without having those fear and if we don't--
22:27 if as people come in as you come into the church
22:30 or I come into the church, if we don't do that,
22:32 that-- the enemy can so play us in those areas
22:36 because we are starved,
22:38 we're starving to death and God is saying,
22:40 if you are gonna chose recovery,
22:42 maintain recovery you have to start
22:44 bringing those things you're your life.
22:45 Because walls can get built instead of being broken down
22:49 and so it so important today,
22:51 especially when--
22:53 well, any single individual you know,
22:56 that comes into the church that you know
22:57 they spend a lot of time as,
23:00 you know, single lonely individuals
23:02 you know, give them a nice warm hug,
23:04 let them know that they are loved and they are cared about.
23:06 And I liked the way you said,
23:08 let's not just make it a gay issue
23:10 because people are just afraid of that word even
23:13 but let say the widows, let's say somebody single,
23:15 let's say somebody that same-sex,
23:17 let's say somebody that's heterosexual,
23:18 let's whoever is that if you know that you know,
23:22 that somebody is not having that affirmation a lot
23:26 you are the body of Christ, a family of God.
23:29 Weave them into the church body,
23:30 make them know that they are part of it.
23:32 So is there's anything else?
23:33 You know, one of the things that you do
23:35 that I think really maintains your--
23:37 or that I see from a distance that maintains your recovery
23:40 is the fact that you are very passionate
23:42 about educating people.
23:44 And so you know,
23:46 you and I ran into each other in Australia,
23:48 then you went to New Zealand
23:49 and you just got back from Africa
23:50 and you come to the United States.
23:51 So you are going all over the world
23:53 saying out loud is man,
23:56 this is my journey, sometimes I do it really well,
24:00 sometimes I don't but here's why I am passionate.
24:04 And so you know, that's got to help in this--
24:07 You know, my favorite verse is Revelation 12:11 that says,
24:12 we will overcome him, the enemy,
24:15 Satan by the word of our testimony.
24:17 And the more I share my testimony,
24:19 the more I go to God's word and say,
24:22 yeah, that's right, that's right, that's right,
24:23 it all adds up, God, you are right.
24:25 I am gonna go tell some other people about this
24:27 because you've added, you've brought joy to my life
24:30 and helping me know that I am living
24:31 in according to Your will instead of my own.
24:34 So there's a lot of presence in word of your testimony.
24:36 What about the people that say,
24:38 you know what, can you just accept it,
24:40 sit down and shut up?
24:42 Oh, yeah. Yes, I do.
24:44 I am very familiar with that.
24:46 When before I got into this ministry
24:48 I think there were people
24:50 who really wanted me to do that,
24:51 they wanted me to just go sit
24:53 in the church pew and be silent.
24:56 I don't think that,
24:57 that what I have done is much for my healing that,
25:00 that was necessary and God had really inspired me
25:03 that we had been in the dark
25:04 so long on this that we as a church,
25:07 we as a people can't afford to remain in the dark.
25:11 I want to go home.
25:12 I want to get this whole thing over with down here.
25:15 We need to learn to reflect he pure love of Jesus Christ
25:18 to other people the way He did.
25:21 He ministered among prostitutes,
25:23 tax collectors, you know lepers.
25:25 I wonder if there was anybody gay there.
25:27 And today gays are the modern day lepers, you know.
25:31 We've got to learn to love, not condone and condemn.
25:36 And to Christians that's often like,
25:39 what do I do then?
25:41 Unless you personally have an intimate relationship
25:44 with Jesus Christ you don't have any water
25:46 to pour into somebody's empty glass.
25:49 And so it does go well beyond the scope of homosexuality
25:52 by all means today and I've been amazed
25:55 that God is taking me out of the gutter
25:57 and put me in the pulpit to share this with people
26:01 because I am happy that you want to learn
26:03 how to reach out and love and care
26:05 about same-sex attracted individuals
26:07 but I am also concerned very much about you
26:11 and the intimacy or the personal relationship
26:13 that I heard about as a kid, I wonder what is that?
26:16 I wonder what is that? What does it look like?
26:18 Yeah, yeah.
26:19 You know when somebody says,
26:22 you know when you of course were standing up for ministry
26:25 I just cracked up because one of the things
26:28 I thought was incredibly difficult is that it's a topic
26:33 that people have strong opinions about.
26:37 They really either want to hear it
26:38 or they don't want to hear a thing.
26:40 They are afraid that you are gonna come on to their husbands
26:42 or they are afraid of all other kind of stuff.
26:44 So you really have that wall to fight against.
26:47 But then I want to shout out to someone
26:49 is that even in elementary school people
26:52 are teaching that, oh, this is okay,
26:53 no matter what you chose is okay.
26:55 So in secular world we're been indoctrinated
26:59 in all kinds of sexual-- in a way sexually.
27:04 All the movies are sexualize,
27:05 all the commercials are sexualize
27:07 and yet as soon we walk in the church
27:09 somebody says, don't talk about it.
27:11 And I am like, really? You know.
27:14 And so when you said,
27:15 I am gonna go out and talk about it
27:18 I am thinking, man,
27:19 get a bullet proof vest and then good luck.
27:22 Do you know what I mean? I do.
27:24 So you know-- tell me what--
27:29 some of the things that are your passion
27:31 and why can't you shut up.
27:35 You know because for so long--
27:40 because as a child and as a teenager
27:44 and as an adult I was pushed further and further away
27:46 and I am going, this isn't what God has in mind,
27:48 I know this isn't what God has in mind.
27:50 And so when God calls me back
27:53 and I find that the 40 years
27:55 that I was wandering in the world
27:57 and I come back in and find that the church
27:59 seem to have been wandering for the same 40 years,
28:02 I cannot afford not to share the truth
28:05 and the love of Jesus Christ today.
28:08 I can't afford not to. He's convicted me.
28:10 I could never be a gay activist
28:13 because when I lived in the gay culture
28:15 I knew in my heart
28:16 it wasn't according to God's plan
28:18 but I just don't know what to do,
28:19 I didn't know the practicality
28:21 of the scholarly type of information I had.
28:23 Today I do.
28:25 And so I have to go and share that with people
28:27 and as I watch people get it
28:30 people stay long into the afternoon
28:32 and into the evening during the question and answer
28:34 period of the seminars that I do
28:36 and I see them get it.
28:39 It's just lights the fire under more passion for me
28:43 to want to go and help others.
28:44 Now I wasn't so much a person
28:46 who could have been a gay activist
28:48 but I told my parents when I came back,
28:50 I can be an activist for Jesus Christ
28:52 and if that means that I lose my life that way,
28:54 I couldn't think of a better way to go.
28:57 And you know that--
28:59 what an incredible saying this is,
29:00 you know what I am so passionate about this
29:02 and who God is and vindicating His name in this issue
29:06 that I can't shut up, I can't stop.
29:09 But here's a caviar to that.
29:11 I hope this doesn't happen
29:13 but I like to put this out there
29:15 for people to think about today.
29:16 Don't put me-- this is not about Wayne Blakely,
29:19 this is about Jesus Christ.
29:21 And Wayne Blakely is still human,
29:23 he's still fleshly, he's still tempted.
29:26 What if I had a fall?
29:28 Are you gonna run from me or you gonna run to me?
29:31 Right. To help.
29:33 Yeah, because we need to come around the person
29:36 who's hurting and pray over them
29:38 and lift them up and say, you know,
29:41 I don't know what the brokenness is
29:43 but I want to get you reconnected.
29:46 No, with Magdalene you know,
29:48 I love when Christ met the woman at the well
29:51 and even Magdalene, but he woman at the well,
29:53 when she says you know, she's asking for water
29:56 and he's talking about relationships
29:58 and she doesn't even admit her relationships
30:01 but He says, you know what, you've been married five times
30:04 and the guy that you are with right now
30:05 you are not even married to,
30:07 and He says that with such love for her
30:11 that it changes her life.
30:12 You know, wouldn't you love it
30:14 if it would have been a gay guy at the well.
30:16 Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
30:17 Because we can't pull from those things.
30:20 But you know, Magdalene all of the sudden is on the street,
30:24 she's been you know--
30:25 or the woman that caught in adultery
30:27 pulled right out of bed and she's guilty as anything
30:30 and He says to her, go and sin no more, I love you.
30:34 And she can't help to follow Him
30:35 the rest of her live.
30:36 So we've got a God that says,
30:38 that I am looking at these issues,
30:39 these issues are not good,
30:41 what you're to your body is not good,
30:43 it's really harmful to you
30:45 but I understand that you were desperately
30:47 wanted to be loved and God is love.
30:50 And so really He is trying to say all that to us.
30:52 And so when you say that I can't stop,
30:57 I've got to continue to say that,
30:58 I got to vindicate God, this is not about me,
31:01 this is really about Him
31:02 and when I fall, please love me.
31:05 Because you know, with integrity
31:07 like even talking about my mom at the beginning of the program
31:10 and I am so afraid that you know,
31:13 as God teaches me different things
31:15 and I wanted to be honest with Him
31:17 regardless of what anybody else thinks about me
31:19 because I don't want to lose God in this process.
31:23 Another point to make on integrity too,
31:25 I often have people say to me,
31:27 well, Wayne, you know, really needed a Savior
31:30 because you had a really broken life,
31:32 you know, you were sleeping around,
31:34 you were in prostitution,
31:36 you didn't have a monogamous
31:39 sanctified honorable relationship
31:42 that Jesus would want you to have.
31:46 And I get confused by that
31:49 because God loves every single gay person
31:53 as much as He loves every single straight person.
31:56 There is you know, God loves us all the same.
31:59 But I have to redirect that question
32:02 back to the Word of God
32:03 which again is His love letter to us.
32:06 Where can you go, where can you say
32:08 that this is what God's plan is for me?
32:11 If it's not there, it's not something
32:13 that I can hold comfort in and it's not there.
32:17 It's just not there.
32:18 And so we're just telling a lot today
32:20 about a monogamist relationship being--
32:23 a same-sex relationship being pleasing to God
32:26 and there's no evidence of that in God's word.
32:28 So I just urge people to look beyond them.
32:32 And what's really funny about that is I ended up
32:35 with a couple that came for prayer
32:38 and they were in their 70's, a beautiful couple, you know.
32:41 And at one point we're gonna pray
32:43 and God says, ask them if they are married.
32:46 And I thought, oh, stop. Of course they are married.
32:48 You know, they are like 100 years old, 1,000 years old.
32:50 I mean, they, you know.
32:51 And so I said to them, are you guys married?
32:53 And they turned red looked down and said no,
32:57 we were just living together.
32:59 And so you know, again, it's like it's not--
33:02 it's got-- they got to pay attention to that,
33:05 you know, just living together is not what I wanted for you,
33:09 I really wanted you in this one flesh kind of relationship.
33:12 And it's not judgment, you know, I get accused of this
33:16 and I think we all get a little bit of that
33:18 living as Christians today.
33:19 If we are pointing people to the Word of God
33:21 I've heard people say to me,
33:23 oh, you just judged me, you know.
33:24 No, no, no.
33:26 Actually where the truth is in God's word
33:29 and that's what actually convicted in my heart,
33:31 I am only drawing you to God's word
33:33 so that you can hear from God yourselves
33:36 about what He sees is been honorable
33:39 or dishonorable to Him.
33:40 And the more you fall in love with Him
33:43 the more you are gonna want to obey Him
33:46 or do His will instead of your own will.
33:48 It's tough.
33:50 I mean, I am not going to paint any rosy picture on it
33:52 that says, oh, this all feels good.
33:55 We get this idea that as Christians
33:56 they have this smooth road.
33:58 Really it's pretty rocky.
34:00 I might tell people the streets of gold
34:02 are in heaven and not on earth
34:04 you know it's the reward after this
34:06 but we've got to cling on to Jesus in this process
34:09 and believe and have faith.
34:10 And faith is often without feeling
34:13 and sometimes our feelings are screaming and yelling at us
34:16 and saying, yeah, you know,
34:18 if you have 20 minutes with that man
34:20 and could lay on his chest and hug him
34:23 and you would feel like you belong
34:25 and you know what-- and 30 minutes later
34:28 you would be al empty again, you know, it just isn't there.
34:32 And what's more,
34:33 it isn't there from the stand point
34:37 of what God's word is directing you to.
34:40 And I want to honor God.
34:41 We're gonna open up for questions
34:42 but I want to just say
34:43 that when you said 20 minutes with that man,
34:46 I think 20 minutes you know,
34:48 I am shooting up heroin
34:49 because my addiction is different
34:50 but we just want to get relieved,
34:52 relief from the loneliness of the pain we feel
34:55 and God says, the only way
34:56 you truly gonna get that is with me
34:58 and I promise you,
35:01 if you walk with Me in integrity,
35:03 walk with Me in honestly and let Me change your life
35:06 the you'll start having changes in your very desires.
35:09 So we're gonna open up for question.
35:12 I want to go with, Michael, you first.
35:15 You know, because you-- you know Wayne.
35:17 What do you think of some of the stuffs that he said?
35:19 Well, you know, my question for you, Wayne,
35:21 is so in this ministry that we've been doing together
35:26 we've seen each other through a lot of progress
35:29 and a lot of challenges.
35:32 And so, Wayne, what I really like to know from you
35:35 is what is your greatest challenge now
35:38 and also what is your greatest joy?
35:44 I would say right now the greatest challenge to me
35:48 are individuals that I see that are rejecting the truth,
35:54 that come to me with a counter truth
35:56 or a truth that they have accepted for themselves
36:00 but that doesn't match up biblically
36:02 and yet it's not my job to convict.
36:04 And so I pray over those individuals
36:06 and hope that God will get through,
36:09 I hope that their hearts are not harden
36:13 and that they let the Holy Spirit
36:14 speak to their hearts.
36:16 The greatest joy is in seeing somebody get it
36:21 and give their lives over to Jesus Christ
36:24 and let Him become leader in their life,
36:26 realizing that the road ahead
36:28 you know, may not necessarily be all leveled out,
36:31 that there's a lot of uphill
36:33 that He will carry them through
36:35 and that they have the support of people
36:37 who are walking this road along with them.
36:40 So let me just ask you
36:41 because when you say someone get's it,
36:43 I know that you went to a college in Australia,
36:46 I think you went to Avondale and you also did something
36:49 with a television station there.
36:52 And I know that there were young folks
36:54 that said you know what,
36:56 my whole life I've dealt with this silently,
36:58 I've dealt with this like in shame.
37:00 I've never been able to talk out loud
37:02 and they get to out loud to somebody,
37:04 I have this struggle and you can allow them
37:08 to walk through this struggle.
37:09 So are you saying that,
37:11 that's such a joy for you, keeps you going?
37:13 It is but the first-- yes, it is.
37:17 And it's rare, it's so rare because on the other side of it
37:22 you know, I've been through
37:24 what you said that you've gone through
37:27 and I know that God loves me and I know that God is fine.
37:31 I mean, let's look at Jonathan and David in the Bible
37:36 and so I am sure that God is fine
37:38 with same-sex relationship.
37:40 And so they-- often the arguments
37:43 that will come up that will grasp
37:45 at something to hold on to,
37:47 please, God, let me just the way
37:49 I am because I don't want to budge from how I feel.
37:53 When the analogy that's been given doesn't hold up
37:56 because it wasn't a sexual relationship
37:59 it's one-- and people sometimes--
38:01 So because what you are saying is,
38:02 you are using Jonathan and David
38:04 as if it was a sexual relationship
38:06 and you are like, wait, wait, wait,
38:07 they were just good friends.
38:09 Right, to justify how they are today
38:11 and I don't need to change, I am happy just the way I am.
38:15 So unless somebody wants healing,
38:17 unless somebody is wanting to find a way out
38:20 I can't force them to come out.
38:22 I don't want them to come out against their will,
38:25 it won't do anybody any good
38:27 and I know that in my own life, in my own struggle
38:31 I would have been just like them
38:33 and I would have been listening
38:34 to somebody like me and going, yeah, right,
38:37 I am glad it works for you.
38:39 And so only the Holy Spirit can touch that soften heart,
38:42 it's on up to me to do that.
38:44 But you know what's really-- what's incredible to me
38:47 and I want to go with even with--
38:50 you talk about the joy, Michael,
38:52 is the fact that you know, for-- in my ministry
38:55 when I get somebody that calls me
38:57 that is struggling with the same-sex issue,
38:59 I turn them over to you guys or turn them over to somebody
39:02 I know that is doing that ministry
39:03 because I know there sometime they just need to say out loud,
39:06 man, I just want to process this for somebody
39:09 and everybody is afraid of the issue.
39:12 And so the fact of you're not being afraid of it
39:15 has to bring some joy to you, it's like, I am not even afraid
39:17 and I'm really glad that you called.
39:19 Yeah, the joy is there.
39:22 When I get emails or phone calls
39:24 I am joyful because I know that,
39:26 oh, I have one right now that has divorced himself
39:31 from Christianity many years ago.
39:33 But when I found it in an article of mine
39:35 that I wrote three years ago,
39:37 why would they even been looking for my article
39:42 and today declares themselves as atheist
39:45 but now says that maybe there some reason
39:48 for them to become my friend
39:50 because they can-- I believe that the Holy Spirit
39:53 is involved in this communication,
39:56 there is so much bitterness
39:57 on the other side of this communication
40:00 but there still this sort of reaching out
40:02 which was the name of the article that I wrote.
40:04 Reaching Out. Yeah.
40:05 Okay you know, we have another question.
40:07 I think David, you had a question?
40:09 Oh, yes.
40:10 My name is David, I am from Illinois.
40:12 My question, well, I struggle with porn
40:16 and being with a lot of females
40:19 so it's like to say anytime God brings us close
40:23 and bring us in choose and show He love you
40:25 but did you think you would still have that struggle?
40:29 You think it was-- you know, if it's over with--
40:32 well, once the brought you in?
40:34 You know, that-- what an excellent question.
40:37 God did amazing thing for me
40:40 and that the first four years of coming back to Jesus,
40:47 He really put that on a backburner.
40:50 I was so focused on Jesus
40:52 and I am still focused on Jesus today
40:55 but I will say that the temptation--
40:57 and somebody recently said this to me,
40:59 the further you get into God
41:02 the stronger the temptation
41:03 the stronger the fight will come from the enemy.
41:06 And I am very aware of that fight today.
41:09 And so even more it drives me
41:12 to the foot of the cross and says,
41:14 I must maintain this relationship
41:16 with Jesus Christ and I pray to Him.
41:18 I said, please don't ever, ever let go of me
41:20 and I know you won't but please make sure
41:23 that I don't ever let go of you
41:25 and that I keep you know, claiming this promises,
41:28 Psalms 91 lately.
41:30 I know you should check it out,
41:32 I can dwell in the shadow of the moist high
41:35 that I am sheltered in the feathers of His wings.
41:40 Which is incredible.
41:41 We're going to come back,
41:43 I want you to continue on that
41:45 is what keeps you in recovery, what kinds of things you do?
41:48 You talking about Psalms, you talking about other things
41:51 but we're going to come back
41:52 and would you join me for the close?
41:54 Absolutely. Okay.
41:56 We'll be right back.
41:57 We're talking about integrity
41:58 and we're talking about passion,
41:59 we're talking about coming out of things,
42:01 homosexuality, drug addiction all of that.
42:04 So stay with us, we will be right back.