Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Rene Quispe
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000116A
00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues
00:03 related to addictive behavior.
00:04 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:06 may be too candid for younger children.
00:10 Welcome to Celebrating Life in Recovery.
00:12 My name is Cheri, I am your host.
00:15 Can we survive like adultery and anger and abuse resentment?
00:19 This is the continuation from last week
00:21 and this journey is incredible.
00:24 Come join us.
00:54 You know I want to say welcome to everybody at the cafe too.
00:56 It is been like really so far
00:58 it's been such an incredible season
01:01 and I want to introduce you in a minute.
01:02 But first we're gonna talk about
01:05 we were going through the book Celebrations,
01:06 we were talking about health stuff.
01:09 We have such a heavy topic today
01:12 really incredible victory
01:13 but a heavy topic today and we are on rest.
01:16 When I am trying to figure how to tie that together
01:18 so I have really prayed about it
01:20 and I want to start with lighter way
01:23 that in the US or in the world in general
01:26 we are going a thousand miles an hour.
01:28 We don't want to rest, we are just on it.
01:31 I saw a commercial not long ago
01:32 that just I laugh my head off.
01:34 The commercial was this guy and I am gonna read it to you
01:36 'cause if you get some of it.
01:38 But this guy was healthy looking really handsome,
01:41 he's like running and he says he's telling if how
01:44 what he did in last five hours.
01:46 Not the last five days, not the last five weeks
01:49 but the last five hours.
01:50 He says that he went to marathon
01:53 while knitting a sweater
01:55 while was reading a book teaching him
01:56 how to himself how to play guitar.
01:59 Well, he was becoming a ping pong champion
02:01 while recording his first album.
02:03 And he all did that by pumping himself
02:06 full of a popular energy drink and he knows five hours
02:09 so you might know the name of the drink.
02:12 But anyhow so it's like we all would like running like crazy.
02:15 We are just doing so much
02:17 and we are taking more caffeine and more stuff
02:19 and we are staying up later and we are doing
02:21 all that kind of thing and it's killing us.
02:24 It's really killing us and if you are in recovery,
02:26 if you are doing any of that recovery stuff
02:28 we have to start looking at that.
02:30 We have start looking to slow down.
02:33 A friend of mine interviewed this doctor
02:35 named Archibald Hart
02:36 and he wrote a book called Thrilled to Death.
02:38 And in his book he said
02:40 that we are a pleasure seeking society
02:43 but and that's called a hedonistic society.
02:47 We want to find pleasure and we wanted to feel good
02:49 and we wanted to happen yesterday
02:51 and all that kind of stuff
02:52 but he said in that seeking of pleasure
02:54 we have thrashed ourselves so much
02:56 that our pleasures centers have flat line
02:59 and we become and hedonistic.
03:01 We are unable to find pleasure, we've actually thrashed.
03:06 We have taken away the ability to even connect us
03:09 so then we reach out even more addictively.
03:11 And so I know you've probably thinking
03:13 where am I gonna go with rest on this.
03:15 So that's all the external rest.
03:18 They have been able to take a breath
03:19 and pull ourselves back.
03:21 I am really fortunate to belong to a church
03:24 that says one day a week we're gonna rest,
03:27 we're gonna take a Sabbath rest,
03:29 we're gonna check out and actually connect with God
03:31 and to end and literally put work aside and all that.
03:35 But what I have found in recovery is what happens
03:39 when the rest that we need is from our own head.
03:43 You know, we have literally--
03:45 not now we literally, we literally come to a place
03:50 where I am ashamed, I am resentful,
03:53 I am fighting against my own thoughts
03:56 and my own stuff and what happens
03:58 when the rest I need is from myself.
04:00 And that's why I want to introduce you, Rene Quispe.
04:04 You are-- your wife was on a show last week
04:06 talked about some stuff in your life.
04:09 Really intense stuff but what happens
04:12 when the rest is in our head.
04:14 Its not there. Yeah, and it's not there.
04:16 I'm not finding it anywhere. Not finding it at home.
04:19 When you have a restlessness and frustration and anger--
04:25 And when you have bitterness and guilt
04:28 that will never allow you to rest,
04:31 and rest is something we all seek for.
04:33 Most people seek for physical rest.
04:35 A physical rest is not the best rest.
04:38 It is the mental, emotional, spiritual rest
04:41 what we really need.
04:42 They say that in hospital visits now in this country
04:46 most people come in their primary issue
04:48 is fatigue, tired.
04:51 Not only physically but stress mentally,
04:53 physically, emotionally, spiritually
04:55 I am exhausted and can you help me?
04:57 And our body starts to break down.
05:00 I want to I know that your journey
05:04 to a place of rest took a while and so--
05:07 Can you tell us a little bit about not only
05:09 what happened in your marriage or in your life
05:12 but you know where did you come for?
05:14 What was your family like?
05:15 Well, I was born in Argentina
05:18 and my family was a dysfunctional family.
05:21 So I was growing up
05:22 and the situations were not easy.
05:25 My father left us when I was nine years of age.
05:28 I was the oldest. We were four kids.
05:30 My little baby sister was there and my mom was very depressed.
05:36 She was neurotic at times
05:39 and of course I did not like all that.
05:43 I was very frustrated.
05:44 My natural temperament said that I want to be,
05:47 I want to enjoy life.
05:48 I want to be successful.
05:51 So since I was a very young person
05:53 I developed some defense mechanism
05:57 that would help me survive that.
05:59 So I concentrated on what was good.
06:02 I was denying what was bad.
06:05 I disconnected from anything
06:06 that was painful or I did not like.
06:10 And so you're almost putting your hand up
06:12 like don't even bring that to me.
06:14 That's right.
06:15 Because you are not gonna rob me from my life
06:17 just because your right now having a hard time.
06:19 So I had a lot of good moments
06:22 because I was concentrating on that.
06:24 I would just seem to push away anything
06:27 that was not good to me.
06:29 And more when I was a teenager about 15, 16
06:33 I had a very sad experience with my dad.
06:36 I went to see him if he's gonna get me some clothes and he--
06:41 when I got there after a long trip
06:44 I haven't seen him for years.
06:46 He just welcomed me saying what are you doing here?
06:49 And he began shouting at me angry.
06:51 My mind blocked everything he said.
06:53 I don't even remember what he said
06:55 but I remember his face,
06:56 I remember his shouting and he sent me back home
06:59 without giving me breakfast.
07:00 It was early morning.
07:02 And but I disconnected from that pain also
07:05 years went by.
07:07 Not even remember it when you say disconnect.
07:09 Yeah, disconnect. This is not important.
07:10 I did not even tell my mom what happened.
07:12 You see, I just I may remember what happened
07:15 but I don't allow it to touch my heart by emotions.
07:19 So eventually just to connect
07:20 with that particular event of my life
07:23 we were already married
07:24 when my wife and I was here in Texas
07:27 I was finishing my doctorate in psychology
07:29 and I became aware
07:31 that I was very traumatized with my dad.
07:35 And I realized I need to go and forgive him.
07:38 So I did make a trip to Argentina
07:40 and I went to his house
07:42 and by God's grace I forgive him.
07:44 And God helped to understand things
07:46 that I was not even aware of
07:48 you know why he was acting like that.
07:50 God helped me to understand why he was acting like that.
07:52 But it was years later.
07:53 Years later, years later
07:55 and I realized that they are so many things inside us,
07:59 inside my own life and that now I understand
08:02 but that so I was growing up I did not.
08:04 You know when you are young
08:05 I went to university and I was--
08:08 now I gave my heart to the Lord when I was 17 years of age.
08:11 And I decided to study for to be a pastor.
08:14 And I wanted to be a good person,
08:16 a good pastor and I dedicated all my time
08:20 I wanted to excel in everything.
08:21 I remember that eventually
08:24 I decided I need to get married.
08:26 And I asked the Lord to find me the woman
08:29 that was gonna be my wife.
08:32 I remember saying to God.
08:33 You know, God, I want You to choose
08:35 the girl that is supposed to be my wife
08:36 but make it that I like her too.
08:39 Because that would be awful. Very important.
08:42 That's funny.
08:44 When I met her we fell in love instantly.
08:47 I mean, it was one time that we talk
08:50 and I knew she was a girl.
08:52 What was it about the conversation
08:54 that made you just now?
08:56 I don't really remember all that we talked
08:58 all I remember is that I find out
09:00 that she did not have any boyfriend.
09:02 That I remember. That I asked.
09:03 Somehow I asked that question
09:05 and I went back to my room jumping up and down.
09:09 I said God, thank you she is the one.
09:12 And then we began to date and it was not very easy
09:16 because we were in a Christian setting.
09:19 And remember this was the 60s, okay.
09:22 And there were regulations
09:24 and she was in a different part of the campus.
09:29 And its hard for people nowadays to understand
09:32 how serious it was, separated.
09:34 Yeah, because they allowed us to visit,
09:37 to see each other under supervision
09:39 two hours every two weeks or something like that.
09:41 I mean that's not enough when you are in love.
09:44 You want to see them everyday
09:46 and she was just across the fence
09:47 on the other side on that hospital.
09:49 So eventually I said man, I want to be with her.
09:53 I want to see her.
09:54 I want to, you know,
09:56 and I am not sick so I cannot go there.
09:59 Eventually I decided that I need to have a surgery.
10:05 And I found the way to do it
10:06 because the hospital was offering to those
10:09 who are planning to go to there Amazon
10:11 as machinery a free appendectomy.
10:16 Just in case, you know,
10:18 if you are in Amazon River working
10:19 and you have problem with your appendix they are gone.
10:21 So they just took it out.
10:23 They just took it out even if you were okay.
10:26 So I put my name there
10:27 even though I wasn't sure
10:28 if I was gonna go to the Amazon.
10:30 And they did a surgery and I was close to her.
10:35 But, you know, now I look back
10:38 and now I realize beautiful the love is.
10:43 It's really selfish because it's what you want.
10:47 You make me feel good. Yes.
10:49 I like the way I feel around you.
10:50 Exactly. Exactly.
10:51 And you know it took me many years
10:55 to understand the fact
10:56 that human love without God is selfish.
10:59 And we all need to learn love with a different kind of love
11:03 self giving love, sacrificial love
11:05 but that's not the way
11:06 we usually begin a relationship.
11:08 At least most people you know
11:10 and my way of relating to Alvy at the beginning was,
11:13 you know, she was the best,
11:14 she was the only one
11:15 in all of these beautiful feelings.
11:18 She was the nurse wanted to go on ministry.
11:20 Yeah. Everything you dreamt of.
11:22 Everything and we were really in love
11:25 and it was just a most beautiful experience
11:27 and then a few months later when she--
11:30 one day she talked to me with a little
11:31 bossy tone of voice and I did not like it.
11:35 And I began to realizing you know those little things
11:38 that you find after your marriage
11:41 and it takes a long time but if you do not know
11:44 how to feel deal with those moments
11:46 when you get frustrated or you don't like it
11:52 that will build up and if you don't know
11:54 how to clean resentment from your heart
11:57 it's gonna destroy your relationship.
11:59 Well. I know that I talk today.
12:02 Right, but you were talking about as a child
12:04 what I did was just shattered off.
12:06 At the beginning actually when they were problems
12:08 with the Alvy I would try to deal with it
12:10 and if there was not a solution
12:12 as I wanted it I would disconnect.
12:15 You see because that was my natural way
12:17 of dealing with problems.
12:18 She would feel rejected.
12:20 And she would feel rejected and there would be--
12:22 logical sequence of conversations
12:25 and arguing and being frustrated,
12:27 being angry and that kept on building up
12:30 even though you know after we finish in Argentina
12:33 we came to the States.
12:34 I went to Andrews we got a master.
12:37 We went back to Argentina.
12:39 We worked as pastor in churches
12:42 and then for four years I was teaching
12:44 at the university in Argentina.
12:46 And we had our two kids and we decide to come back
12:49 to the States to study some more.
12:51 So even this whole time
12:52 Rene, is that you are saying my career very successful.
12:57 I'm, I'm really bringing things into my life
12:59 that improve my life, I am loving what I am doing.
13:03 I'm in control of everything
13:04 except for I go home and then that psycho starts.
13:08 That was the only time. It was increasing with time.
13:11 You know and they were many moments
13:12 that we had beautiful time, she know
13:15 but the situations were such that in time
13:18 the periods of frustration, resentment, arguing were longer
13:23 and eventually I got an other master
13:27 and then we began to doctor degree.
13:30 We were going from one church to the next
13:32 and eventually we were pastoring
13:34 the university church in Keene, Texas.
13:37 And we were just so-- I was happy with my work.
13:41 I was happy with the success of my career.
13:44 And a lot of respect from your colleagues?
13:46 Yes, and you know
13:49 because you know how to relate professionally
13:52 and you know I knew how to do my work.
13:56 And now I look back and I realize
13:59 I was doing the work because I learnt how to do it.
14:03 I knew what I was supposed to teach and preach
14:06 because I had it in my brain.
14:08 I had an intellectual religion. I had a knowledge.
14:13 I dint have the relationship.
14:15 May be I did have it and God in His patience
14:17 you know is compassionate and helps you
14:20 and you are successful because successful we were--
14:22 we baptize a lot people is so that was just--
14:26 So you're saying I don't want to disconnect that time
14:29 but you know looking back on it
14:31 you could see kind of the danger the red flags.
14:34 Oh, Yeah. Yes.
14:35 Oh, yeah, now I can see it.
14:37 You know in those days I usually blame it on Alvy.
14:40 You see because of whatever it was.
14:43 And so we were there working
14:46 and it was, it was very sad
14:48 because I would have promise with anger
14:52 and I would come home sometimes very angry
14:55 and I would blow up for anything.
14:58 And but of course my kids saw it, my wife saw it
15:03 but the rest of the people I was perfect pastor,
15:08 only I saw that.
15:09 You know somebody had said to me one--
15:11 one time and tell me what you think of this.
15:13 Is that because they blew up and the wife and kids saw it.
15:18 Is it that they would almost be angry at them
15:20 that you make it as come out in me?
15:24 You know, like I am not having
15:25 to deal with this somewhere else
15:26 but-- Why do you?
15:28 Yeah, only you so it's got to be you.
15:32 And-- and in that even builds up even more resentment.
15:34 And remember that I-- since I was a child
15:36 I wanted to excel, I wanted to be good.
15:38 I wanted to, you know,
15:39 so I would see myself as perfect.
15:43 You see I have no problem.
15:44 Everybody knows that I can do my work.
15:46 I can do it well and what about you?
15:49 Why? Why? Why?
15:50 And so this-- let me tell you
15:52 a little story that is sad but it reveals how things were.
15:58 One time we were in that large church in Texas
16:01 and I came home angry with Alvy
16:03 I don't remember why and I went to the kitchen.
16:07 She was cooking, it was Friday
16:09 and she had prepared a lot of things
16:10 and I did not realize.
16:13 She has just washed the floor and it was wet.
16:17 And I came angry fast
16:19 and as soon as I step in the kitchen
16:22 I slip and I just flew in the air.
16:25 I mean my two feet went up like this,
16:27 my hands were like a helicopter,
16:29 my arms and I fell on my back
16:33 but as I was going down my arm just hit
16:35 one big glass dish with double eggs inside
16:40 that she had prepare for the next day
16:42 we had a lunch for a people from the church at home.
16:45 So that flew everywhere even the ceiling had piece of egg.
16:49 Can you imagine? Yeah.
16:51 And glass everywhere and of course
16:55 that was a very sad moment.
16:57 You know.
16:58 of course I blame it on her again
17:01 but you know now I realize
17:03 what is inside your heart when you act like that.
17:06 That is not God. That is not the Holy Spirit.
17:08 That is Satan's spirit. It is anger, frustration.
17:12 It's the spirit of darkness.
17:14 So instead of coming up
17:16 and just talking about full of psychic--
17:18 coming up and really been angry at her.
17:21 Yeah, I actually have remained on floor for long time
17:25 because I was so frustrated.
17:27 And those were the things that I look back
17:30 now I realize boy, it was bad.
17:33 It was bad.
17:34 Now of course our children saw that,
17:36 the rest of people did not know it
17:38 and for Alvy it's very, very hard to deal with all that.
17:42 It was very depressing.
17:46 Imagine who is she gonna talk to about this?
17:50 Is she talk to any conference press
17:52 I could actually go and talk to him and say listen,
17:54 I got a PhD in psychology I can explain you what's going on.
17:58 You could over talk her? Of course.
18:00 This is her issue. Yeah.
18:02 So there was no way out for her and we were,
18:06 well, eventually we have moved to California.
18:11 So, so what that Rene at that point
18:13 definitely verbal verbally the anger was there.
18:16 Was it physical?
18:17 There has been some push up, pushing back and forth,
18:21 some slap or something like that.
18:25 They were moments even we both did it
18:27 to each other but mostly me.
18:29 But very not much that was another major problem--
18:32 Mostly verbal. Mostly verbal most of it.
18:36 And we go to California,
18:39 now I am working in different studying.
18:41 I'm not working as a pastor
18:42 I'm working in a center and I feel very lonely.
18:50 I feel very frustrated, I feel very angry.
18:54 I travel, I had to go and teach different places.
18:58 And I remember that I was longing
19:02 for somebody to talk with and that's what Satan uses.
19:07 And I never thought about being unfaithful
19:10 and never wanted to until it happened.
19:16 So in your mind you just thinking
19:18 now, I finally just connected with somebody.
19:20 Somebody to talk to was that not gonna go beyond that.
19:23 Was it somebody there you worked with?
19:25 No, it was from another state. Okay.
19:28 A person that I have to leave
19:30 when, when everyday he was very seldom,
19:33 I mean few times a year.
19:35 And now it was but it was the connection
19:39 and Satan knows how to make it very attractive to you.
19:45 And so when you add to all that anger,
19:50 frustration, resentment inability
19:52 to deal with relationship this way out.
19:57 And I remember that I was very angry at myself
20:02 but I do not remember that I blackout any negative things.
20:06 I did not want to think about my guilt.
20:08 I did not want to think about my life.
20:12 I was just disconnecting from everything
20:14 and trying to remain--
20:15 You know and I and I am also saying
20:17 this little boy who sense that my dad left
20:20 as I am trying to control things
20:22 to were thing are good and I can't do it.
20:26 It's-- it's like not working.
20:28 Yeah, and-- and I was determined to be happy
20:32 but that's not the way to happiness.
20:34 You know and it was one thing after another
20:39 that was causing me to feel this horrible
20:42 feeling like I told you.
20:44 I hated myself but I did not handle way out.
20:48 What do I do? Where do I go?
20:50 I thought about divorce but God did not allow me.
20:53 You know, I even bought a book about what to do it
20:55 and I just did not even read it.
20:57 It was like God was blocking me from anything
21:00 that would be a divorce.
21:02 But I was remaining in this, this connection from Alvy.
21:06 Eventually I moved out of the house
21:09 to an apartment right there in the same city
21:11 where we were living and I was just putting my time into
21:18 whatever I was doing at a time
21:20 which was teaching in different places.
21:23 I really felt miserable. It was not life anymore.
21:27 And then the moment came of when that experience of Alvy
21:33 mentioned in the session last week
21:37 that I was at home and I asked for food
21:40 in a very demanding way and she prepared and--
21:44 At that point had you been unfaithful?
21:46 Oh, yeah.
21:47 Okay, so that went all that's happen.
21:49 This is been already for quiet some time
21:52 nearly four to five years.
21:54 And it was a very sad situation.
21:58 I was very miserable.
22:02 I knew that I was not gonna be
22:03 able to have anything with this sort of person.
22:07 And at the same time I didn't know
22:09 where to go, what to do?
22:11 So nothing's working out. Nothing.
22:12 Not even this where I thought
22:14 that I was getting some kind of relief here.
22:16 I knew that, that was not yet.
22:17 Yeah. But I was frustrated.
22:19 I was very angry with myself, angry with everybody.
22:23 And then that night when Alvy brought me the food
22:28 and I eventually left the house remember
22:30 and she prayed and she prayed
22:33 that I God will give me a spirit of compassion.
22:38 And when I was going back to my apartment
22:41 driving the car it was a miracle of God
22:44 because I actually felt in my heart something
22:46 that I haven't felt for long time.
22:49 I felt compassion for her.
22:51 You know, I did not care about how she felt before
22:55 and now I feel this compassion for her.
22:57 So I called her back.
22:58 I took the phone, remember those phones
23:00 when they were electrical in the cars, well, anyhow.
23:04 That's funny because I do remember.
23:05 Yeah, and I picked that phone
23:08 and the static actually told Alvy
23:10 that it was my phone she realized that.
23:13 And I don't even know what to say.
23:15 So I began telling her, you know,
23:18 I did not even thank you for the food.
23:20 I know I was driving back to my apartment
23:24 and I felt compassion for you.
23:29 And there was a silence and then I said anything
23:35 and I don't even know where it came from.
23:37 I say I would like to invite you
23:39 to take little ride tonight with me.
23:42 It was almost midnight.
23:43 Can you imagine and the amazing thing
23:48 is what Alvy tells me that in her mind God,
23:51 how God let her because, can you imagine
23:54 if a jerk like me and wiser woman to go out.
23:59 The answer would be, ah?
24:00 When are you gonna ask forgiveness, ah?
24:03 Years of impatience and all the anger.
24:06 Yeah, and she-- she tells me
24:09 that she felt God guiding her saying
24:13 the one that is inviting you
24:14 is not Rene it's me, God inviting you.
24:19 So she answers-- So powerful. So powerful.
24:24 She answers, okay, I'll be ready.
24:28 And I come back...
24:36 and she was, she come out.
24:44 She was very pretty.
24:47 She gets into the car and she said thank you,
24:53 for inviting me to take this little ride.
24:57 I didn't know what to say.
25:00 I was frozen. I can't even imagine.
25:06 And then we began driving, you know,
25:09 and she looks out and says just see
25:12 how beautiful the night is.
25:13 Trying to establish a connection, you know,
25:16 and I don't --
25:17 It's so outrageous. No, go ahead.
25:21 And I didn't answer anything
25:24 because I don't know what to say.
25:27 I'm frozen and then something happened in me.
25:33 And it's the first evidence I have
25:36 of God's changing my-- my ways.
25:42 I begin to feel and decide to put my arms around her
25:48 but I did not dare to do it.
25:50 Because of all the stuff? What if I touch her?
25:53 I told her and she tells me don't touch me
25:55 like I told her many times.
25:57 Yeah. So I was scared.
25:59 You know, I was fearful.
26:01 Fear, you know, where it comes from.
26:02 Exactly. It's not from God.
26:04 So I-- I look at her again,
26:08 I am struggling with all of this inside,
26:10 you know, and I want to put my arm
26:12 but I am not sure I can do that.
26:14 So in my fearfulness I remember
26:17 keep on driving with my left hand
26:19 and I put my right hand on my knee
26:22 and then I moved it on to seat
26:24 and we had an open seat it was Cadillac.
26:26 So I began moving my hand toward her
26:30 hoping that she would see me.
26:35 And I was like get about halfway I stop
26:38 and now here's what Alvy says.
26:40 Okay she says that she saw my hand
26:43 and a voice comes up inside her saying coward, don't touch it.
26:48 Wow. So the enemy is still speaking.
26:51 That was yeah, he's always there.
26:54 I mean he is never gonna give up.
26:55 So he is always there trying to stop
26:58 even if you are living in the spirit
26:59 he's trying to stop that.
27:01 But immediately God says,
27:03 Alvy I always come close to the sinner.
27:08 Take his hand. I just want to weep for you.
27:13 She did not touch my hand.
27:14 I mean, she did not held my hand.
27:17 I am driving and I feel something touching my pinky
27:23 and I look at my hand
27:24 and I see her hand here playing with my finger
27:31 and I leave my hand
27:36 and she began to asking my hand then my arm.
27:47 There were no words just that...
27:55 I go back and God tells Alvy don't fear.
28:03 He's gonna drop you back home
28:04 but don't fear I am working.
28:08 And I get to the house
28:13 and I leave her there she goes down and--
28:19 I wish I can tell you that I change right away.
28:21 I did. It took a long time--
28:24 Would you mind Rene, if we took a break
28:27 and I just let Alvy join us?
28:30 Oh, yeah, please.
28:31 I am going to 'cause you know even--
28:34 even that moment where God is so graciously
28:37 and He forgive us and literally brings such reconciliation
28:40 we don't even know what to do with that next.
28:43 But I would like to see or hear from both of you
28:45 what happened and what that look like.
28:48 I don't know about you but I am so proud of God
28:52 and even when we don't even know
28:54 we are so self-destructive, we don't even know what to do.
28:59 God says you know what, I will be faithful.
29:02 I'll be faithful. We're gonna be right back.
29:05 I would like to invite his wife up
29:07 and let her keep him honest with the story.