Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Brad Peters
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000100B
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00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues,
00:03 related to addictive behavior. 00:04 Parents are cautioned that some material 00:06 may be too candid for younger children. 00:13 Welcome back. 00:14 And today, we're gonna be talking about forgiveness. 00:16 And what's amazing to me about recovery 00:18 is that at first, we step into recovery. 00:20 We're trying to do with all our own stuff. 00:22 We're looking at maybe drugs, 00:25 maybe relationships, all of that junk. 00:28 And I don't know about you, 00:30 but I was incredibly self-focused. 00:32 I thought that I was just the worst. 00:35 I'm such a mess. I have all of these issues. 00:38 And then, once I started to actually 00:41 kind of allow God to get me in a place 00:44 where I was stronger and I'm less self-focused 00:47 and I'm looking at issues 00:48 and I'm kind of learning things that I need to learn. 00:52 I started to look at my spouse. 00:55 What was he, a mess? 00:58 And I'll introduce him to you right now. 01:01 But you know what it's-- Brad, I want to say, 01:03 this is our 100th program. 01:05 It just worked out that you were on the program. 01:07 And I just want to say, I love you 01:09 and I'm so glad you're here. 01:10 But you know what I'm saying, as far as, 01:12 you know, for a longtime I looked at my own issues. 01:14 And then all of a sudden, I started to look in at yours 01:18 and thought may be, he's got one or two. 01:21 Yeah, just maybe. Yeah. 01:22 And I just got to say, 01:24 I'm so excited to be here with you. 01:25 I'm so proud of you and I love you so much. 01:27 How cool are you? A hundred shows, amazing. 01:29 Just amazing. I know. 01:30 That is amazing. Who would have thought it? 01:32 But God did. Yeah, yeah. 01:33 God thought it. 01:35 But getting to back, what we're gonna talk about 01:36 today which is forgiveness at some point. 01:38 But it was real interesting 01:39 and we've talked about this a little bit. 01:41 I think this is the third program I've done. 01:43 And in the first one, I kind of talk a little bit 01:45 about just figuring out a little bit who I was, 01:48 in terms of what God thought, 01:49 what God intended for me? 01:51 Your whole journey. Kind of my whole journey. 01:53 And that was like, you know, 01:54 the first little step down the path. 01:56 Last year, one of the things that we covered was anger. 01:58 And I think, there's some things, 02:01 you almost may have to clear out of the way, 02:04 before you can take that next step. 02:06 And if you're angry all the time 02:08 and really mad at everyone all the time. 02:10 It's pretty hard to forgive people. 02:13 You know, so what are you going to say. 02:15 Yeah, yeah, I'm good with that. 02:17 You know, when you're really probably not sincere at all. 02:19 Right, but you know when we first time, 02:21 I think that when we first got to together, I was-- 02:24 there were so many issues that I had to look at. 02:26 That we didn't look at yours at all. Exactly. 02:29 And then, what I thought was amazing, 02:31 as we decided at one point and it was so funny, 02:34 we decided that we're gonna work together at one point. 02:36 And I thought, you know, 02:37 we're gonna work together and live together. 02:38 And he's gonna step away from the university job. 02:41 And Brad's plays in the Philharmonic 02:43 and works for the university. 02:44 He's gonna step away. And we're gonna do ministry. 02:46 And I thought, you know, I don't know. 02:47 I think if you're gonna do that, 02:49 you need some counseling. 02:51 And that was the start of it, eh? 02:53 Yeah, oh, absolutely, you know, 02:54 and I'm going counseling. 02:56 You know, you're the one with all the issues. Yeah. 02:58 You know, I came from this middleclass American family and, 03:01 you know, we went camping 03:02 and I was a boy scout and all that stuff. 03:03 Dad served an ambassadorship to Bangladesh. 03:06 I mean, my friends are drug addicts. 03:08 I mean it really is a whole different, 03:11 you know, it couldn't be more extreme. 03:13 We really come from different backgrounds, 03:14 but because I love you so much 03:17 and was committed and really did believe that 03:19 God was calling me into this. 03:20 We agreed. 03:21 And I went to about three sessions by myself 03:24 and then you joined me. 03:26 Because I'd never done anything like that 03:27 before after first she was like, 03:28 how was the guy and I'm like, 03:30 I've no idea for what's good or bad or sideways. 03:32 I wouldn't have a clue. I'd no point in reference. 03:35 But what's really interesting was after a year of working 03:38 with that person and certain things, 03:40 certainly started to come up. 03:41 Then we had-- I got a message 03:44 from God anyway, at a men's retreat. 03:46 And that caused us to start working with a different person, 03:49 who was trained in a certain kind of counseling 03:51 that really talk about "peeling backs the layers of the onion" 03:55 and whatever phrase you want to put on that. 03:57 A real biblical. Biblically best. 03:59 Staying right with the Bible. 04:01 And it's just kind of coaching us through issues. 04:03 Exactly. 04:04 But let me just say that at initially, 04:07 what was interesting is you had a lot of... 04:11 and I'd love being able to say this on national TV. 04:13 I'm gonna look at this program over and over and over. 04:16 But you know that dealing-- 04:18 I, you know I'm dealing with drugs and insecurity 04:20 and all that kind of stuff, 04:21 but from your background it was more arrogance 04:24 and pride and those kind of things 04:26 that we dealt with in that first year. 04:28 Absolutely, it really was to-- look at the things 04:31 I inherited both from my mom and my dad. 04:34 You know, anger, pride, arrogance. 04:36 The anger thing and that really I think, 04:39 I think sometimes our couch is for other things, 04:41 you know, you hide behind that. 04:43 But that was a big thing and so getting rid of that 04:45 really allowed me to take us again. 04:48 If you're real angry, sometimes 04:49 it's hard to look at your own issues. 04:51 You know, because, well, why would, you know, I'm fine. 04:53 And you just, you know, 04:54 that whole emotion gets ramped up to where it blocks, 04:56 your ability to objectively look at who you are. 05:00 And, you know, and that you may have 05:01 brought something to the table. 05:03 Sometimes there are things that are socially acceptable. 05:05 You know, quote "I thought I was driving for excellence" 05:09 you know and just holding the bar real high. 05:11 When in fact I was really being a jerk, 05:15 you know, and so that perspective. 05:16 I like that mm-hmm. 05:18 That was very polite, baby. Yeah. 05:20 You know and so I'd being willing to, 05:22 to take a look at those things honestly and openly. 05:25 And so what's really interesting to me is, 05:27 as we started out in this journey is that, 05:30 there was a lot of times 05:32 that I had to allow you to do some of your own healing. 05:35 And for people that get into recovery 05:37 as we do really look at our healing, 05:40 not realizing that the people around us 05:42 also have their own issues. 05:43 And when I stopped being so self-focused, 05:45 I am going to either get angry about your issues 05:48 or allow you to recover yourself. Exactly. 05:51 You know, what I mean, is I-- 05:53 can I give you permission to recover? 05:54 Can I give you permission to look at your own stuff 05:57 without me kind of wanting to say... 06:01 See, look at you-- See, look at you. 06:03 Oh, you have problems, too. It's not only me. 06:06 I mean, I really had to give you permission 06:07 to start looking at that stuff. Exactly. 06:10 And generationally, what did that look like for you? 06:12 Exactly, and one of the things, 06:14 that was very revealing was, 06:16 as I was willing to do that as God really worked a lot. 06:21 Getting rid of the anger allowed some things to happen, 06:23 but some other things started to reveal, 06:25 as I looked at the history in my life. 06:27 And the different things was starting to realize, 06:32 not so much where I was now, 06:33 but certainly a core part of who I was, 06:36 as a young man and growing up, 06:38 based upon the things that the generational stuff, 06:40 I inherited from my family. 06:42 The fact that discovering much later on, 06:45 that I guess, you would call it pornography, 06:49 that my dad had a porn addiction. 06:51 There certainly was verbal abuse going on in my household 06:54 and while not direct sexual abuse. 06:56 There was certainly a heightened 06:58 atmosphere of sexuality going on. 07:01 That I looked at things that I'd thought, 07:04 I was just the, the all American boy doing all the things 07:08 that the all American boy is supposed to do, 07:11 based upon the world's standards. 07:13 And having suddenly come to a place, 07:15 where processing all these different things 07:17 and you're looking at the things 07:18 you have and suddenly realizing at some point. 07:21 Who the person was that I had become? 07:24 And I'd like you to talk a little bit 07:26 about that 'cause I think that, 07:27 that for us was a really intense time. 07:30 But you had to look at the fact, 07:32 that some of the things 07:34 that you may have to share with me 07:37 as your wife, I may run. 07:41 I may say to you, I'm sorry I'd no idea, 07:44 I'm out of here. 07:46 And I don't know what that was like for you 07:48 when you realized that we're gonna go into this area. 07:51 Our counselor or the person 07:53 that we were working with 07:55 started talking about moral failure. 07:57 He said, "Is there anything in your life 07:59 that you need to really bring to God and ask for forgiveness 08:03 and not have it to just hide inside you?" 08:06 And for a lot of us in recovery, 08:08 one of the things that I think gets us really tripped up, 08:11 is we've done things 08:12 that we don't anyone else to know about. 08:14 I don't even want to look at it myself. 08:16 I'm trying to hide it 08:17 and the devil is playing it like a violin. 08:20 I mean, there's--he just plays us into get into recovery. 08:24 I have to start bringing that out and say, 08:26 you know what, I'm no longer gonna hide. 08:28 I'm no longer gonna let this stuff fester. 08:31 I'm actually gonna bring it out. 08:33 Ask for forgiveness not only from God, 08:35 but from the people that I love, my spouse 08:37 or anybody that I've injured. 08:39 And so you're coming to that place. 08:41 And what were you thinking as far as our relationship 08:45 in who I am and where I've come from? 08:47 Well, I think it was really was a point, 08:51 you know, if I'd call it a turning point. 08:53 But it was certainly a place, 08:54 where it was like either 08:56 we're gonna get this forgiveness thing or we're not. 09:00 And because the realization I'd come to 09:01 and during that process 09:03 of getting rid with your moral failure. 09:05 I tried to take and I love, 09:06 we got this from our friends in Australia. 09:08 During my failure years, 09:10 you know, was I tried to kind of group 09:12 that into the whole repentance prayer. 09:16 Please forgive me for all things I did, 09:17 before I was married. 09:19 And all the acting out, that I did sexually. 09:21 And I grouped that all into one little thing 09:22 and went through the process. 09:24 We have a whole prayer, 09:25 we're gonna talk about that little bit later, 09:27 which is really cool. 09:28 And so we did that. 09:30 And then we always do a moment, afterwards. 09:31 And we say, okay, you know, 09:33 Jesus is there anything He needs to know. Anything else. 09:35 Anything else, He needs to know about this. 09:38 And the counselor, that guy's name was Joey. 09:42 He looks at me and he says, what's God telling you? 09:45 I said I need to write down every single name. 09:48 And it's crazy, it was-- there were some, 09:50 you know, again I had one night stands. 09:52 I didn't even know the names of some of these women. 09:55 And so, it's the girl in the dream dress. 09:59 It was this person, it was this, you know. 10:02 And as I've said a couple of times, 10:04 I was a boy scout, but I wasn't a saint. 10:07 So let me say, for somebody watching 10:10 'cause the program is gonna be about forgiveness. 10:12 As I am listening to my husband 10:17 talk about all this kind of stuff and I'm a molested kid. 10:21 I'm an abused--I've been abused my whole life. 10:25 I've been, you know, 10:27 I ended up on the streets at 13. 10:28 I had all of this kind of stuff. 10:30 And I'm listening and I'm thinking about all the men 10:34 that have injured me. 10:36 And now his story is becoming like that. 10:40 And it was a weird place to sit. 10:42 'Cause you know I had, I'm sitting there going, 10:44 God, you know, what do I do with that? 10:48 And I'm looking at you processing 10:51 and I know you have to process. 10:53 You have to go there. Yes, yeah. 10:54 And I have for a split second, 10:57 I can either forgive or not. 10:59 And so I want to cover something, 11:01 Brad, before we go on, 11:03 because I think it's really important, 11:04 is that and there's a graphic that I have is, 11:08 understanding forgiveness is that, 11:11 one of the clearest ways to understand forgiveness 11:13 is to look at how God forgives us. 11:17 Our sins stands in the way for our relationship with God. 11:21 Literally, stands in the way and God says, 11:23 I'm gonna move all of that out of the way from you 11:26 and I'm gonna forgive you. 11:27 I no longer condemn you. 11:28 And we can put some ugly stuff on the table. 11:31 I mean, and we do. 11:33 And in Romans, you know, 3:23 11:37 "As all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." 11:39 God says, "I will forgive their iniquity and their sin, 11:42 I won't remember it anymore." 11:44 He says in Jeremiah, "I will abundantly pardon them." 11:47 You know, all of those kinds of things, 11:48 when He says that, for me personally. 11:51 And I've put a ton on the table, 11:53 you know, I've done that. 11:55 And so, as Brad is going through his issues, 11:57 God has reminded me who He is and the forgiveness 12:01 that he has put in my own life. 12:02 And He doesn't choose to focus on my faults. 12:05 He chooses to focus on His grace. 12:08 And who He is and how incredible 12:10 and huge His forgiveness is for us. 12:12 And He really does focus on that. 12:15 And as you were dealing with your stuff, 12:17 I'm hearing the Holy Spirit say, 12:19 "Remember how I've forgiven you." 12:21 I want you to extend that forgiveness to your spouse. 12:24 And I didn't know if I could. 12:26 Do you know, I don't know if I can? I don't know. 12:29 I don't know if I'm that, I have that much in me. 12:31 And you continued to talk. Right. 12:35 And I am thinking. 12:37 I don't even want to know anything else. 12:39 And yet you're healing, you had to have me know. 12:43 Right. I kind of got this little image and this is-- 12:48 guys will relate to this maybe a little bit more than girls, 12:50 but our sin, and Satan and the sins 12:54 and the things we kind of create. 12:56 Almost create these walls in our mind sometime, 12:57 hides in the darkness. 12:59 Right, we grow clear about that distinction 13:01 between light and darkness. 13:03 And so I don't know what I was doing, 13:05 but I was wearing one of those 13:07 little strap-on headlamps, right. 13:08 And so, the light shines 13:10 where ever you look, when you wear that thing. 13:11 If I look over here, there's the light. 13:13 If I look over here, there's the light. 13:14 Okay, all of a sudden, a symbolism was so clear to me, 13:17 was like, look, God is the light. 13:19 And wherever you look that light's gonna shine. 13:22 So I have to be willing to look at the issue 13:25 and shine the light on it, 13:27 in order to chase the darkness out. 13:29 I mean, it was a little bit simple but-- 13:30 And not be held in bondage to that. 13:31 And not be held in bondage because of that. 13:33 Because those barriers that we put up, 13:35 create the shadows that, 13:38 you know, Satan can then hide in 13:39 and take part chance at us or whatever. 13:41 You literally can, you know, build a wall around yourself. 13:43 So I had to shine the light on this issue. 13:46 And look at it and put it all on the table. 13:48 Or it would have followed you the rest of your life. 13:51 Definitely, destroyed any relationship. 13:53 Right, it would interfere with our ability 13:55 to actually love each other. 13:56 And that was you know, 13:58 I mean that's the ultimate goal, right? 13:59 I love you, yes. 14:01 So, you know, 14:02 and so what's really interesting is the first thing. 14:05 I don't know, if you remember the first thing, 14:07 you said to me during that whole process. 14:09 And you're looking about all of these different things. 14:12 And the fact that you were sexually active really early 14:14 and that you could just walk in. 14:18 And it wasn't even a matter of, 14:20 what her name was or whatever and all that kind of stuff, 14:22 as you're looking at this kind of stuff. 14:24 I remember the first thing, you said to me, 14:26 as you said, "Will you forgive me for all of the women 14:30 that I've had in my life? 14:32 And I remember thinking. I don't need to forgive you. 14:35 I mean, I'm not the saint and I have own stuff and... 14:38 But as soon as you said that and I said, yes. 14:42 There was some healing that happened. 14:43 I didn't need to hear you at least say to me, 14:47 I wish it would have been different for us. 14:48 I wish that you would have been my first love. 14:52 And I wish I would have known all that kind of stuff. 14:54 And I didn't even realize in a spiritual sense 14:57 how much God wants that for us. 15:00 And it was ridiculously cool. It was really cool. 15:04 But I think really for us, to really kind of complete, 15:08 at least for me, to completely cleanse that, 15:11 this had to go one step further 15:12 and I had to ask you forgive me 15:14 for being the kind of person that had-- 15:17 Talk about that a little bit. 15:18 And that's a really crazy place to be again and I-- 15:22 And you know, talk about the way, 15:24 'cause you really struggled with that for a long time, 15:27 before you were brave enough to even, 15:29 say it out loud to me. 15:31 I think so. 15:32 And again, it's probably one of those things 15:33 where growing up, I was far more influenced by the world 15:36 than I was by the church, I did not grow up. 15:39 While I was raised in the Methodist Church, 15:40 I wasn't active in any church. 15:42 When you met me I was nothing-- 15:44 I had left the church at that time, too. 15:46 Yeah, I was, I don't know whether I was agnostic or not, 15:48 but I was just, I was nothing. 15:50 And so, there really was no moral compass. 15:53 There actually had been no spiritual protection, 15:54 in my household as well. 15:56 So I really believe I was subject 15:57 and really opened to all kinds of influences 16:02 that looking back on were extremely not healthy. 16:05 So to come to that place suddenly, 16:07 where you had to take a look at, 16:10 what is my character, who am I? 16:12 You know, who are my role models? 16:14 What I've done and what I've modeled my life after? 16:16 And is this something over here to be proud of. 16:19 You know or do you start to realize, 16:21 oh, my gosh, how many people 16:22 have I hurt or injured or wounded? 16:24 But you know what's really interesting to me 16:26 in watching that process, Brad, that you went through, 16:30 is that you weren't asking 16:32 that of the church or of the world anymore. 16:34 You were asking that of God. 16:35 God, who am I? Yes. 16:37 And what is my character? Yes. 16:38 And so to me, you know, when we ever, in our addiction 16:41 when we turn to God and say, God, who am I? 16:44 As a woman, who am I? As a man, who am I? 16:47 As far as, you know, good, bad, all kind of stuff. 16:52 And the standard is now God. 16:55 He's really gentle, but He shows us 16:57 that we have been lied to. 16:59 That we have really given ourselves away 17:01 and prostituted ourselves out to the world 17:04 and He's gonna try to redeem that. 17:07 And so being able to sit there and ask you 17:09 will you forgive me for being that person? 17:12 That guy. At one time. 17:14 That guy--I was the guy who would have been 17:16 trying to pick you up off the street. 17:18 You know, I would have been that guy. 17:19 So then, now the ball's in your court. 17:22 And you know again to achieve a level of intimacy, 17:26 you know, the kind of intimacy 17:27 that I believe God really wants for all of us, 17:30 requires am I willing to-- I'm gonna say, 17:35 have His level and not that we can ever get close to that. 17:37 But at least attempt, to forgive in the manner 17:40 that He forgives because He forgives everything. 17:43 So for that moment, for that moment, 17:47 I understood the most incredible thing 17:50 that we can do for each other 17:53 is to say, I forgive you. 17:55 I forgive you, not because of any other thing, 17:59 but because God has forgiven me. 18:01 Do you know what I mean? 18:02 And I knew that what you had said 18:05 is that I thought about different people in my life 18:09 that have injured me. 18:10 I thought about all that kind of stuff. 18:12 I thought about everything 18:13 that you were bringing to the table 18:14 and sharing from the time that you were young. 18:17 And God said, I felt like God was just saying 18:20 "Please, Cheri, don't mess this one up. 18:23 Release him." 18:25 'Cause, you know, and it was an incredible place to be 18:28 as just look at you and say, I forgive you and I love you. 18:31 Yeah. 18:32 We'll get through this. We'll get through it. 18:34 And what's really cool 18:36 and I know we're gonna talk about this 18:37 coming up in a little bit. 18:39 But the process that we used 18:40 in working through that level of forgiveness, 18:43 it's more so then and I've talked about this before. 18:45 You know, you have these issues and you walk along 18:48 and maybe you'll get a little help somewhere, 18:51 some counseling and so, you know, 18:52 you're dragging this chain behind you, 18:54 all these issues, great. 18:56 To give you some wheels to put on that stuff. 18:58 So it's not quite so hard to pull along. 19:00 Where, you're still pulling it. 19:02 It's still there, but, you know, it's not quite so noticeable. 19:04 Well, then, maybe you work some more on your stuff 19:06 and some more counseling depending on what it is. 19:08 And, well, now it's motorized, 19:09 it put a little motor on you-- 19:11 I can even go up hill-- It drives itself. 19:13 You know, it's not a big deal to be holding it around. 19:16 But the kind of freedom that God is asking. 19:18 The healing and forgiveness 19:19 that He is offering us is in fact, 19:21 you don't even have it anymore. 19:23 I don't have to carry this. I don't have to carry it at all. 19:26 And so to me when we kind of got to that place 19:28 where suddenly the burden that was lifted was unbelievable. 19:31 And I think we were both able to see each other 19:34 in a totally different light. 19:35 In a certain way that, you know, it's just really different. 19:38 And I think sometimes, 19:40 you speak a little bit more to the men right now. 19:42 That's really hard for guys to do. 19:45 You have to be willing to be vulnerable in a certain way, 19:47 but the reality is the payoff is huge. 19:50 In what sense? 19:53 Women need a place to be safe and to be trusting. 19:58 And I think when they have a man who is willing to be one, 20:02 that vulnerable and that open to them, 20:04 to be willing to share that much, that's huge. 20:07 'Cause you fight to be a safe place for your family. 20:11 And so I think for a lot of your journey 20:15 is I'm amazed at how much you fight to keep us safe 20:19 even from the influences of your past. 20:22 Oh, absolutely. 20:25 I think the pressure on men in general society, 20:28 is so far removed from what God intends to be a man. 20:32 It's so far removed that for guys. 20:35 It really, it's a huge, it's a huge battle. 20:38 But with my willingness to actually be 20:41 that vulnerable with you 20:43 and your willingness to forgive me, 20:45 certainly, you know that I really do care. 20:48 I am trying to be a safe place and also a strong place, 20:52 'cause when I get rid of that baggage, 20:54 I can be much stronger. Much-- 20:55 You're willing to be the spiritual leader of house. 20:57 Absolutely. 20:59 One time I remember and this cracked me up 21:02 'cause I just wanted to kiss you all over the face. 21:04 But I remember you were at the university, 21:06 at work and having lunch with a number of other professors. 21:09 Do you remember that day? I do. I do remember that day. 21:13 And what I heard, just so you know, 21:16 you're talking about the day. 21:18 And this incredibly hot, young thing walks by the table. 21:23 And each of the professor's talks about this girl 21:27 and what they saw 21:29 and what they would like to do and whatever. 21:32 And you said in the middle of that table. 21:34 You know, I'm trying to honor God and my wife 21:37 and I don't allow myself to go there anymore. 21:39 And you're telling me that and I'm like shut up, 21:42 I love you, come near. 21:44 And I think that you told it to me so casually, 21:46 but I think every woman wants to know 21:49 that not only have you dealt with your stuff, 21:51 but you brought it at the table. 21:53 You handed it to God. 21:54 You came clean with me personally. 21:57 And you and God are dealing with that. Right. 22:01 You know, it's not something you're doing 22:02 because you know what, you know that I want you to do it. 22:05 But you're doing it 'cause you're a man of God 22:07 and that's what you want to do. 22:09 I love that. Exactly. 22:11 Did I ever say thank you for that? 22:12 I don't know if you did. Thank you, hun. 22:14 Oh, in public, in front of people now. 22:15 I know. I love this. Go ahead. 22:19 So the thing that I think is important 22:21 and we've done this for each other. 22:23 'Cause you've certainly brought all kinds of things to me, 22:25 issues and stuff from your past and different things. 22:27 I have a few. You know, so do we all. 22:30 You know, but it's I don't know how to say, 22:33 the sincerity of forgiveness or the level of forgiveness. 22:36 And I think that's where, 22:38 you know, who can forgive, but God really. 22:41 And so, when we through study 22:45 whatever get the Holy Spirit really, truly is in us. 22:48 Then our ability to forgive becomes genuine and true 22:51 and deep and to what you do. 22:53 You're dropping this stuff off. 22:54 You're not hauling it around on wheels anymore. 22:56 You're not trying to carry it around. 22:58 What's really interesting to me, 22:59 is I think that there's something 23:01 that you said during this process 23:02 is that you always kind of felt like you-- 23:05 there's a, that part of you have to hide. 23:07 And now that part of you is not even there. 23:08 That God said let me just remove that and show you, 23:12 who you are outside of that garbage. 23:14 Right. Outside of that knowledge. 23:18 And I think that and this is still, 23:21 this is a little bit scary territory for me. 23:23 When at this point is to have a man 23:26 and I consider myself to be a man's man. 23:29 I go skiing and I'm a pretty aggressive skier. 23:33 I do hundred mile bike rides. I hike. 23:36 And you know, you get in my face, 23:38 I'm gonna respond, you know, kind of thing. 23:42 You know, from that standpoint, 23:43 but by the same token is to see compassion 23:47 in people to have understanding 23:48 and be willing to say out loud in public. 23:51 You know, I forgive you or I was wrong or, 23:55 you know, gosh, I bet that just really hurts. 23:56 I mean, there's just things that men haven't been allowed to do 24:00 and haven't been allowed to be, by society, today. 24:03 And that is such a lie. 24:05 Yeah, but it's cool. 24:06 When I even watch you go there. It's very cool. 24:09 And as I do that you feel safe. 24:12 That I am safe to tell this guy anything. 24:14 And I'm not gonna get rejected. 24:16 I am not gonna, you know, 24:17 there isn't gonna be some kind of backlashes. 24:19 He's not gonna get real angry. Right. 24:21 He's gonna take a look and understand, 24:23 as best you can, with his feeble male mind. 24:26 Yeah. And-- 24:27 I love, I heard you say to someone, 24:29 when you were doing, you were talking to group, 24:31 at one point is you'd said 24:33 that when I surrendered this stuff to God 24:37 and worked on the issue where Cheri asked her forgiveness. 24:41 I realized it that I got everything at that point. 24:44 I got everything I wanted in a relationship 24:45 so can you explain what that meant. 24:47 And 'cause a lot of guys, I don't think realize 24:49 that you get everything. Right. 24:52 And we talked about this a little bit, 24:55 maybe last year, but I'll go in again is, 24:58 you know, women want a place to be safe and feel cared for. 25:01 Men want to be respected. 25:04 If the woman doesn't feel safe and cared for, 25:07 she has a real hard time respecting the guy. 25:09 And so it's and then you get to the thing, 25:11 I always call who's gonna blink first. 25:12 You know, you get to that place 25:14 where someone has to be willing to make the first step 25:17 or do something in a capacity to start to open the door 25:20 for conversation or a gesture or a something. 25:23 And to me, its really clear. 25:26 And I think the Bible is pretty true, 25:27 that responsibility falls on the guy really, 25:29 to take the first step. 25:31 I think it falls on the guys to 25:34 do more than take the first step. 25:36 And be willing to really just-- 25:38 What's really funny is I'm trying to let you say that 25:41 and every woman's like whatever. 25:43 We've been taking this first step forever. 25:45 But it's really interesting to watch for somebody 25:49 to step up into that place 25:50 and give the woman permission to not have to carry it all. 25:54 And so that's I think an incredible thing is that, 25:58 you know, it is fun, when somebody takes 26:00 the spiritual leadership and a woman can sit down 26:03 and not have to take it. 26:05 And then what happens is, soon as the man feels 26:07 even the tiniest little respect from his wife, all of a sudden, 26:12 it's like well, well that's really cool. 26:14 And so chief, I did this, I get. 26:16 You know, its, you know, and not that it is, you know, 26:20 when you want to say an even exchange necessarily but-- 26:24 The result is that you get what you want 26:26 and suddenly I get what I want. 26:28 And everybody wins. That's the thing to me. 26:29 I look at that whole situation is when you can be open 26:32 and sincere and truly forgiving. 26:35 And everybody wins. 26:38 There was some statistics that I thought were really interesting. 26:41 And I'd like to cover that, is that 26:43 when somebody is lost in sexual sin 26:45 or pornography and all that kind of stuff, 26:47 is they're able to love the people 26:49 in their life at a small percent. 26:51 Somebody says 3% to 12%. 26:54 So you're not present 26:56 and you're not doing an exchange. 26:58 And even in intimate situations, most women will feel somehow, 27:02 that may be you're thinking about someone else 27:04 or you're with someone else or whatever. 27:06 And so, statistics say that unless that stuff is cleaned up. 27:11 You can't connect really intimately. 27:13 And I think that God, 27:15 this is gonna, I'm sorry I got frisky. 27:17 I think that God knows that. 27:19 Soon as I was going to say, I thought how silly is that. 27:22 God knows that. 27:23 God is saying "You are asking me 27:26 to give you life and life abundantly. 27:29 And with all of these things in your pocket are in hiding, 27:32 I can't do that." 27:34 And so you have to be willing. 27:35 And I think He's asking all of us, 27:37 be willing to bring this stuff out. 27:40 Let me clean out your closets. 27:42 Let me get this stuff out of your pockets. 27:43 Let me get these relationships to be real. 27:47 And at one point, if you allow that to happen, 27:50 you truly will live abundantly. 27:54 It's real interesting. 27:55 And again looking at, as we went through all the stuff 27:57 and realizing and I had kind of known this a while ago, 28:00 but looking at it more objectively 28:02 that I grew up in an alcoholic family. 28:05 Now they were socially functional alcoholics. 28:07 And it wasn't like this was the, you know, 28:10 the person stumbling down the alley kind of thing. 28:11 Hey, you're mom's a violinist. Violinist. 28:13 You're dad, a research scientist. 28:14 Research engineer for the federal government 28:16 and stuff, but, you know, I can remember at the young. 28:19 There's always alcohol in the house, 28:20 always alcohol in the house. 28:22 And, you know, I succumbed to that early, 28:24 but that emotional thing. 28:25 Again, that in spite we did cool stuff. 28:27 We did cool stuff all the time. I love my parents. 28:29 My dad has passed, but I love them dearly. 28:32 We did cool stuff, but the emotional connection 28:35 that God so desires us to have with each other 28:38 and with Him 3%, 5%-- 28:41 Was not there. Was not there. 28:43 You know, to this day my mom sometimes wonders, 28:45 why her kids don't call her so often. 28:48 You raised us. 28:51 And that don't mean that in a vindictive sense, 28:54 but somehow that was the environment 28:57 that, you know, we lived in. 28:58 It's interesting our son-in-law, 29:00 all his family lives right next to each other. 29:02 And, man, they're a family. You know, what I mean? 29:04 They're just at each others house, all the time hanging out. 29:08 I'm 1,800 miles away from my own mom. 29:11 I got one sister, who is 250 miles away 29:13 and another one that's 160 miles away. 29:16 So like, you know, our family went-- 29:19 And, you know, so it's interesting thing 29:20 to realize and look at that. 29:22 You now, in terms of that dynamic 29:23 of where our emotional place is. 29:26 And I think that, what I think it's incredible about 29:29 who God is, is God says, 29:31 "As you come into relationship with me, 29:34 that I want to bring recovery, in all of those areas, 29:38 recovery to your families, of origin recovery 29:41 to your relationships now, recovery to your children." 29:44 So that genetically, you're not passing that same stuff down. 29:48 But, you know, I think that when we step into our Christianity. 29:51 We step in our Christianity in a way that is just so, 29:54 I don't know what we think recovery is. 29:57 God says I'm really taking this damaged thing. 30:01 And I wish that if we could see how incredibly damaged, we are. 30:04 I think that we would just be going like, God. 30:06 Are you sure, you can fix this? Do you know what I mean? 30:08 But I think, He really takes that and says, if you trust me, 30:12 turn it all the way over 'cause there is not a part of us. 30:15 I don't think that actually 30:17 doesn't need some kind of recovery. 30:19 So let's, getting back to the idea of forgiveness 30:22 and some other things that go with that. 30:24 This is really interesting is, in order for me to be free of 30:27 some of the baggage I inherited from my father, 30:29 all the sexual stuff. 30:30 And realizing the things some of the alcoholism and other things. 30:34 My dad's dead. 30:36 There's no way, you know, 30:38 he can ask for forgiveness or apologize to me. 30:42 And yet I needed to forgive him. 30:44 And so and forgive him in a manner whereby, 30:46 I truly am done with this stuff. 30:49 So what was real interesting, 30:51 as we with the process that we did, 30:52 with the counseling with Joe, and he, 30:55 who was an Italian named attorney from New Jersey, 30:59 so he was relentless, relentless in his stuff. 31:02 But he introduced us to this process of forgiveness 31:05 that was so powerful. 31:07 That allows, it allows you to actually be free. 31:10 Not just, oh yeah, I forgive it. 31:11 I'm gonna put it over on the shelf here 31:12 and get it out of the way. 31:14 I'm gonna try to explain some of the process. 31:17 And so, we have one graphic I want to put up. 31:20 It's called the process of forgiveness. 31:26 Imagine in your life, imagine an event happens. 31:31 You acted out sexually or sexual abuse, verbal abuse, 31:34 domestic violence or whatever. 31:36 This event happens and a lot of times, 31:38 we'll go back and we'll try to heal this event. 31:42 My dad molested me since I was 6 months old. 31:44 I mean, my parents were addicts. 31:46 I mean, I have all of this kind of stuff. 31:48 I could go back to any of those issues and I can keep saying 31:51 okay, I forgive my dad, I forgive whatever. 31:53 But I think that we don't realize that we have an enemy 31:56 and the devil is strategic in the way he attacks us. 32:00 And what he does from the event 32:02 is he sets up schemes that come up from the event. 32:05 When I was neglected I then felt angry, 32:09 I felt unloved, I felt like-- 32:12 And so, here's the event. 32:17 Here's all of the stuff that came out of that event. 32:21 I felt so insecure. 32:24 I felt like there is nobody that is going to be trusted. 32:27 There's nobody in the world that's gonna understand me. 32:29 So there's so many things that come out of that. 32:31 And so it's not the event that damages me. 32:34 It's my years of believing all of those lives. 32:37 And so God says I'm gonna actually have to come in, 32:41 not only and deal with the original injury, 32:44 but everything that you carry with your every single day. 32:47 And the Bible talks about, you know, 32:50 the Satan and strongholds 32:52 and arrows and all that kind of stuff. 32:53 And I believe the devil sets us up, 32:56 to every single time that there's an event, 32:58 that's close to that. 33:00 All of those lies come back up. 33:01 So somebody that-- relationship, 33:05 current relationship breaks up or friendship breaks up. 33:06 I lose a job. 33:08 I say the same thing, I'm unloved. 33:09 I'm not good enough. 33:10 All the lies repeat themselves 33:12 and God says I want you 33:13 to not only look at this original damage. 33:18 But I want you to kind of turn over to me, 33:20 every scheme that came off of that damage. 33:23 I want you to-- you know, 33:26 when you talk about like with your dad. 33:28 I want you maybe, if he owed you a debt in someway 33:31 and I want you to pay his debt and then surrender that me. 33:35 When I think, the thing that 33:36 and this is the part that at times 33:37 when some people hear this, it's really startling is, okay, 33:42 so you had this event 33:43 and then all these emotions are going on, right? 33:45 And you get here and it's like 33:46 oh, yeah, but this is event, this event. 33:49 That event hasn't happened in 35 years. 33:52 So all these emotions are from who? 33:57 They're from your self. 33:58 So who's the perpetrator? You become your own perpetrator. 34:01 You are wounding yourself, all of those times 34:05 and because that event, that event is long on. 34:07 It doesn't mean there shouldn't be forgiveness for the event, 34:09 there absolutely should, but all that emotional baggage. 34:13 Whose fault is that? 34:14 That's my fault and that was just-- 34:16 Because I'm believing those lies. 34:17 'Cause I'm believing the lies. 34:19 And it was one of those things, where all of a sudden, 34:20 it was like, you know, hold every thought captive. 34:23 Think about things that are good and positive 34:25 and just and true and pure. 34:26 And how often do I do that? 34:28 Boy, I had struggle with that one because I'm mad, 34:31 because someone did this. 34:32 Or I'm hurt because someone did this. 34:33 So I feel, you know, and so that realization 34:36 and that understanding certainly 34:38 that I'm actually responsible and can pay. 34:43 And what I love about, even as you turn 34:47 that over to God and say to God. 34:49 You know what I'd like to turn over 34:50 not only the original injury, but all the schemes 34:54 that the devil set up in my life, from over the years. 34:56 And I want to surrender all of that to you. 34:59 And any ground that I gave the devil. 35:00 Because of this-- Territory. 35:02 You know any territory and any ground. 35:04 And, you know, being able to say is redeem that stuff. 35:08 You know, we store that stuff. 35:10 And I watched in-- well in my life, 35:14 but definitely in your life, too. 35:15 As your wife, I watch God just 35:17 start redeeming and restoring that. 35:19 I am creating a new or showing you who he created you to be. 35:24 You are a man of God, a son, you know, 35:26 you're one of his children. 35:27 You're adopted into all that kind of stuff. 35:29 And watching as I give this garbage up, 35:32 that God just says now let me stand you up 35:34 and show you, who you are. 35:35 Exactly, what's really been amazing 35:37 and interesting thing and again biblically, 35:39 I'm the last male in my family line. 35:41 So, this was a scary realization. 35:43 I'm like the priest of the household, 35:45 it's like a no way. 35:47 You're kidding, you know, it's not me-- 35:48 'Cause even in our relationship, 35:51 I think we were married 20 years or so, 35:55 before you even decided to look at, who God was. 35:57 Really seriously. Right. 35:58 You know, I mean, I'd come to belief and stuff certainly 36:02 before that, but in a real nature. 36:03 But what's been real interesting, 36:05 as I have used to this process to take responsibility 36:10 and pay for the pain and consequences different. 36:13 We'll talk about this in a minute. 36:15 That the arrogance in my family did that, the sexual, 36:19 heightened sexual activity, I don't know 36:22 what you would call this, 36:23 still form of sexual abuse, it wasn't physical. 36:25 But the pride all these different things, 36:29 fear that's another that's come up, is fear. 36:32 And I'm choosing to pay for that on behalf of my family. 36:38 And what's been amazing to me and I've been doing this 36:40 and praying this for a while. 36:42 I have a sister who is several members of my family, 36:45 struggle with alcohol, but my sister in particular, 36:47 absolute issue with alcohol. 36:50 This summer reached a crisis point 36:52 and now has been sober for about six months or so. 36:56 And, you know, I mean, now when I stop to think, 36:58 is that a result of my prayer. 37:00 You know and Cheri's family 37:04 we've always prayed for some connection there. 37:06 And this is the most amazing thing. 37:08 Her mom sent her an email. 37:11 A card last Christmas which was unheard of, and another thing, 37:14 I wish you'd come visit and for you that's life. 37:16 That's you. That is like you. 37:17 But let me, I'm gonna try to explain 37:21 the process in a way that I think, 37:23 that at least made sense to me. 37:25 That if I was coming-- let's say, 37:27 I came out on the parking lot and I ran into your car. 37:31 You're parked right out front. I ran into your car. 37:33 Then I came in and I say, you know, I totaled it. 37:36 I am sorry. And you're like sorry. 37:39 Do you have insurance? 37:40 And I give you an insurance card, but it's a fake. 37:44 You find out that I'm a fake. I've no money. 37:48 And you're like wait a minute. 37:49 No, no, no, you need to pay for this. 37:51 And I say yeah, whatever. And I'm walking away. 37:54 You decide for the next five years or so, 37:57 to take me to court, to try to get some money, 38:00 to try to get some resolution. 38:01 I shouldn't have to fix my car. You ran into me. 38:05 And so even though, that's the truth, I owe you. 38:10 Eventually you're gonna have to say, 38:12 I'm willing to pay her debt and fix my car 38:15 and move on with my life. 38:17 And I think sometimes with our history, 38:19 with our abuses and with all of the stuff. 38:22 There's a point that we have to say, it is a 100% true. 38:27 Someone owes you. It wasn't right. 38:31 There's something you have been given. 38:33 The fact that I was molested since I was really tiny, 38:36 that wasn't right, but I have to say, 38:38 you know what, I'm willing to pay for the pain 38:40 and consequences, that my dad caused me. 38:43 And I'm willing to pay for that. 38:44 And I asked God to break any scheme 38:47 that the devil set up in my life because of that. 38:50 Take back any ground that I gave the enemy 38:53 because of all of that. 38:54 And, you know, when I think about 38:56 who ultimately pays for our sin is Christ. 38:59 So I'm gonna then give all of that back to him. 39:02 But first I have to take responsibility, 39:04 I'm willing to pay for the damage 39:06 that happened in my family and in my life 39:08 and then I'm gonna surrender that to God. 39:10 And no longer can the devil hit me with the same thing. 39:13 I've paid that. I have given that to God. 39:16 Jesus said that His blood covers that and he will redeem me. 39:21 You know what it's really interesting 39:22 because I know it's true. 39:25 I don't have to carry it anymore. 39:26 And this is a really important part of this. 39:28 And again because this guy was an attorney, 39:31 he probably approaches this way, but I think it is actually 39:33 a really critical part of this thing. 39:36 If I own a piece of property, 39:40 but let's say I have a loan on it. 39:41 The bank owns part of that. 39:43 So I want to sell that piece of property. 39:44 I can't till I satisfy that lean to the bank. 39:48 All this emotional baggage that we've carried around 39:50 or something will happen to you. 39:52 And you say, look, I'm never letting 39:53 anybody do that to me again. 39:55 No one's gonna push me around again. 39:56 No one's gonna hurt me like that again. 39:58 Well, unless you were dee in prayer, over that with God. 40:01 You just actually made a covenant with the devil. 40:03 You made a vow. A vow. 40:04 Right, not so a covenant but a vow. 40:06 And that most of us are walking with all this stuff. 40:08 So now God please forgive me for this area. 40:12 The devil steps in, and, hey, wait a minute. 40:14 You actually don't have a legal right 40:17 to this little piece over here. 40:18 I mean, you can get this parts fine, 40:20 but remember when she was eight years old. 40:21 She said, man, no ones ever gonna do this to me again. 40:23 Because of their bitterness or their pain-- 40:25 Whatever it was. Their anger. 40:27 And so the part about, when we say 40:30 I choose to pay for the pain and consequences. 40:33 I essentially now, I'm taking ownership for all that stuff, 40:37 the event itself, all the emotional baggage 40:39 that I've been carrying and generating in my whole life, 40:43 which really is my fault anyway. 40:45 I'm actually gonna, okay-- You're right. 40:47 You know what, this is my fault. 40:49 I'm gonna clean this 40:51 and my responsibility, let me phrase that. 40:53 My responsibility now that I own it. 40:56 Now I'm free to give it away, but if I don't own it first 41:00 legally, it's called what? 41:01 Criminal interference? 41:03 Criminal interference is what Joe said? 41:04 That the legal term. It's very attorney. 41:06 And that's--the Bible is considered what a covenant, 41:08 a binding agreement between us and God. 41:10 And there's all kinds of things in there 41:12 that really our entire courts of law are based upon, 41:15 the biblical principles. 41:17 And so, you know when we started to understand it-- 41:21 And God says I freely take it. 41:23 Yeah. I want to take it. 41:24 He wants to take it. I died for that. 41:25 But we have to own. You can carry it, if you want. 41:27 But it's too heavy for you. 41:29 Exactly. But-- It will destroy you. 41:30 We have to own it, in order to unhook Satan, 41:33 from all of those different areas. 41:35 And so someone says, and there are some things in our life 41:37 I think that are really too personal, too ugly or whatever. 41:41 And I don't have to say that to everybody. 41:43 I can just say it to God. 41:45 God forgive me and you know the stuff that I deal with. 41:48 But I think that, there's a thing in the Bible 41:50 that I think is just, God is so brilliant. 41:53 Confess your sins one to another. 41:55 Pray for each other so that you may be healed. 41:58 I mean, there's that really interesting thing 42:01 that He just says that there's something about the devil 42:05 that he just keeps us in secret. 42:06 He keeps us bound up. He keeps us locked up. 42:10 And God says don't do that for yourself. 42:12 You know, I hope that this was helpful to you. 42:16 Definitely, going through this 42:17 with Brad and I, was helpful to me. 42:19 But there is nothing that you can hold on, 42:22 all of that ugly stuff, all of that sin, 42:24 if you hold on to it, it's going to destroy you. 42:26 And what God says as you know what, 42:28 you handed it all to me and I will fix it. 42:30 I will give you life and life abundantly 42:33 all of that kind of stuff. 42:34 And this is the key forgiveness, 42:37 a lot of people in your life to heal. 42:39 Heal yourself. Turn it over to God. 42:41 And don't carry it anymore. Really don't carry it anymore. 42:45 And for our hundredth program, I want you to hear 42:48 that more than you hear anything else. 42:50 Unburden yourself. 42:51 That there is a transformation that God wants for us. 42:54 That is real. It is cool. 42:57 And it's different than anything that we've known. 42:59 And the world cannot give it, only God. 43:02 We're gonna take a break. 43:04 We're gonna come back 43:05 and I'm gonna introduce you to the entire crew. 43:07 Well, maybe not the entire crew, but most of us. 43:10 We gonna have cake. We're gonna celebrate. 43:12 And I just got to say that I can't thank anybody, 43:14 but you for this hundredth season. 43:17 God bless. We'll be right back. |
Revised 2014-12-17