Participants: Cheri Peters (Host), Brad Peters
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000100B
00:01 The following program discusses sensitive issues,
00:03 related to addictive behavior.
00:04 Parents are cautioned that some material
00:06 may be too candid for younger children.
00:13 Welcome back.
00:14 And today, we're gonna be talking about forgiveness.
00:16 And what's amazing to me about recovery
00:18 is that at first, we step into recovery.
00:20 We're trying to do with all our own stuff.
00:22 We're looking at maybe drugs,
00:25 maybe relationships, all of that junk.
00:28 And I don't know about you,
00:30 but I was incredibly self-focused.
00:32 I thought that I was just the worst.
00:35 I'm such a mess. I have all of these issues.
00:38 And then, once I started to actually
00:41 kind of allow God to get me in a place
00:44 where I was stronger and I'm less self-focused
00:47 and I'm looking at issues
00:48 and I'm kind of learning things that I need to learn.
00:52 I started to look at my spouse.
00:55 What was he, a mess?
00:58 And I'll introduce him to you right now.
01:01 But you know what it's-- Brad, I want to say,
01:03 this is our 100th program.
01:05 It just worked out that you were on the program.
01:07 And I just want to say, I love you
01:09 and I'm so glad you're here.
01:10 But you know what I'm saying, as far as,
01:12 you know, for a longtime I looked at my own issues.
01:14 And then all of a sudden, I started to look in at yours
01:18 and thought may be, he's got one or two.
01:21 Yeah, just maybe. Yeah.
01:22 And I just got to say,
01:24 I'm so excited to be here with you.
01:25 I'm so proud of you and I love you so much.
01:27 How cool are you? A hundred shows, amazing.
01:29 Just amazing. I know.
01:30 That is amazing. Who would have thought it?
01:32 But God did. Yeah, yeah.
01:33 God thought it.
01:35 But getting to back, what we're gonna talk about
01:36 today which is forgiveness at some point.
01:38 But it was real interesting
01:39 and we've talked about this a little bit.
01:41 I think this is the third program I've done.
01:43 And in the first one, I kind of talk a little bit
01:45 about just figuring out a little bit who I was,
01:48 in terms of what God thought,
01:49 what God intended for me?
01:51 Your whole journey. Kind of my whole journey.
01:53 And that was like, you know,
01:54 the first little step down the path.
01:56 Last year, one of the things that we covered was anger.
01:58 And I think, there's some things,
02:01 you almost may have to clear out of the way,
02:04 before you can take that next step.
02:06 And if you're angry all the time
02:08 and really mad at everyone all the time.
02:10 It's pretty hard to forgive people.
02:13 You know, so what are you going to say.
02:15 Yeah, yeah, I'm good with that.
02:17 You know, when you're really probably not sincere at all.
02:19 Right, but you know when we first time,
02:21 I think that when we first got to together, I was--
02:24 there were so many issues that I had to look at.
02:26 That we didn't look at yours at all. Exactly.
02:29 And then, what I thought was amazing,
02:31 as we decided at one point and it was so funny,
02:34 we decided that we're gonna work together at one point.
02:36 And I thought, you know,
02:37 we're gonna work together and live together.
02:38 And he's gonna step away from the university job.
02:41 And Brad's plays in the Philharmonic
02:43 and works for the university.
02:44 He's gonna step away. And we're gonna do ministry.
02:46 And I thought, you know, I don't know.
02:47 I think if you're gonna do that,
02:49 you need some counseling.
02:51 And that was the start of it, eh?
02:53 Yeah, oh, absolutely, you know,
02:54 and I'm going counseling.
02:56 You know, you're the one with all the issues. Yeah.
02:58 You know, I came from this middleclass American family and,
03:01 you know, we went camping
03:02 and I was a boy scout and all that stuff.
03:03 Dad served an ambassadorship to Bangladesh.
03:06 I mean, my friends are drug addicts.
03:08 I mean it really is a whole different,
03:11 you know, it couldn't be more extreme.
03:13 We really come from different backgrounds,
03:14 but because I love you so much
03:17 and was committed and really did believe that
03:19 God was calling me into this.
03:20 We agreed.
03:21 And I went to about three sessions by myself
03:24 and then you joined me.
03:26 Because I'd never done anything like that
03:27 before after first she was like,
03:28 how was the guy and I'm like,
03:30 I've no idea for what's good or bad or sideways.
03:32 I wouldn't have a clue. I'd no point in reference.
03:35 But what's really interesting was after a year of working
03:38 with that person and certain things,
03:40 certainly started to come up.
03:41 Then we had-- I got a message
03:44 from God anyway, at a men's retreat.
03:46 And that caused us to start working with a different person,
03:49 who was trained in a certain kind of counseling
03:51 that really talk about "peeling backs the layers of the onion"
03:55 and whatever phrase you want to put on that.
03:57 A real biblical. Biblically best.
03:59 Staying right with the Bible.
04:01 And it's just kind of coaching us through issues.
04:04 But let me just say that at initially,
04:07 what was interesting is you had a lot of...
04:11 and I'd love being able to say this on national TV.
04:13 I'm gonna look at this program over and over and over.
04:16 But you know that dealing--
04:18 I, you know I'm dealing with drugs and insecurity
04:20 and all that kind of stuff,
04:21 but from your background it was more arrogance
04:24 and pride and those kind of things
04:26 that we dealt with in that first year.
04:28 Absolutely, it really was to-- look at the things
04:31 I inherited both from my mom and my dad.
04:34 You know, anger, pride, arrogance.
04:36 The anger thing and that really I think,
04:39 I think sometimes our couch is for other things,
04:41 you know, you hide behind that.
04:43 But that was a big thing and so getting rid of that
04:45 really allowed me to take us again.
04:48 If you're real angry, sometimes
04:49 it's hard to look at your own issues.
04:51 You know, because, well, why would, you know, I'm fine.
04:53 And you just, you know,
04:54 that whole emotion gets ramped up to where it blocks,
04:56 your ability to objectively look at who you are.
05:00 And, you know, and that you may have
05:01 brought something to the table.
05:03 Sometimes there are things that are socially acceptable.
05:05 You know, quote "I thought I was driving for excellence"
05:09 you know and just holding the bar real high.
05:11 When in fact I was really being a jerk,
05:15 you know, and so that perspective.
05:16 I like that mm-hmm.
05:18 That was very polite, baby. Yeah.
05:20 You know and so I'd being willing to,
05:22 to take a look at those things honestly and openly.
05:25 And so what's really interesting to me is,
05:27 as we started out in this journey is that,
05:30 there was a lot of times
05:32 that I had to allow you to do some of your own healing.
05:35 And for people that get into recovery
05:37 as we do really look at our healing,
05:40 not realizing that the people around us
05:42 also have their own issues.
05:43 And when I stopped being so self-focused,
05:45 I am going to either get angry about your issues
05:48 or allow you to recover yourself. Exactly.
05:51 You know, what I mean, is I--
05:53 can I give you permission to recover?
05:54 Can I give you permission to look at your own stuff
05:57 without me kind of wanting to say...
06:01 See, look at you-- See, look at you.
06:03 Oh, you have problems, too. It's not only me.
06:06 I mean, I really had to give you permission
06:07 to start looking at that stuff. Exactly.
06:10 And generationally, what did that look like for you?
06:12 Exactly, and one of the things,
06:14 that was very revealing was,
06:16 as I was willing to do that as God really worked a lot.
06:21 Getting rid of the anger allowed some things to happen,
06:23 but some other things started to reveal,
06:25 as I looked at the history in my life.
06:27 And the different things was starting to realize,
06:32 not so much where I was now,
06:33 but certainly a core part of who I was,
06:36 as a young man and growing up,
06:38 based upon the things that the generational stuff,
06:40 I inherited from my family.
06:42 The fact that discovering much later on,
06:45 that I guess, you would call it pornography,
06:49 that my dad had a porn addiction.
06:51 There certainly was verbal abuse going on in my household
06:54 and while not direct sexual abuse.
06:56 There was certainly a heightened
06:58 atmosphere of sexuality going on.
07:01 That I looked at things that I'd thought,
07:04 I was just the, the all American boy doing all the things
07:08 that the all American boy is supposed to do,
07:11 based upon the world's standards.
07:13 And having suddenly come to a place,
07:15 where processing all these different things
07:17 and you're looking at the things
07:18 you have and suddenly realizing at some point.
07:21 Who the person was that I had become?
07:24 And I'd like you to talk a little bit
07:26 about that 'cause I think that,
07:27 that for us was a really intense time.
07:30 But you had to look at the fact,
07:32 that some of the things
07:34 that you may have to share with me
07:37 as your wife, I may run.
07:41 I may say to you, I'm sorry I'd no idea,
07:44 I'm out of here.
07:46 And I don't know what that was like for you
07:48 when you realized that we're gonna go into this area.
07:51 Our counselor or the person
07:53 that we were working with
07:55 started talking about moral failure.
07:57 He said, "Is there anything in your life
07:59 that you need to really bring to God and ask for forgiveness
08:03 and not have it to just hide inside you?"
08:06 And for a lot of us in recovery,
08:08 one of the things that I think gets us really tripped up,
08:11 is we've done things
08:12 that we don't anyone else to know about.
08:14 I don't even want to look at it myself.
08:16 I'm trying to hide it
08:17 and the devil is playing it like a violin.
08:20 I mean, there's--he just plays us into get into recovery.
08:24 I have to start bringing that out and say,
08:26 you know what, I'm no longer gonna hide.
08:28 I'm no longer gonna let this stuff fester.
08:31 I'm actually gonna bring it out.
08:33 Ask for forgiveness not only from God,
08:35 but from the people that I love, my spouse
08:37 or anybody that I've injured.
08:39 And so you're coming to that place.
08:41 And what were you thinking as far as our relationship
08:45 in who I am and where I've come from?
08:47 Well, I think it was really was a point,
08:51 you know, if I'd call it a turning point.
08:53 But it was certainly a place,
08:54 where it was like either
08:56 we're gonna get this forgiveness thing or we're not.
09:00 And because the realization I'd come to
09:01 and during that process
09:03 of getting rid with your moral failure.
09:05 I tried to take and I love,
09:06 we got this from our friends in Australia.
09:08 During my failure years,
09:10 you know, was I tried to kind of group
09:12 that into the whole repentance prayer.
09:16 Please forgive me for all things I did,
09:17 before I was married.
09:19 And all the acting out, that I did sexually.
09:21 And I grouped that all into one little thing
09:22 and went through the process.
09:24 We have a whole prayer,
09:25 we're gonna talk about that little bit later,
09:27 which is really cool.
09:28 And so we did that.
09:30 And then we always do a moment, afterwards.
09:31 And we say, okay, you know,
09:33 Jesus is there anything He needs to know. Anything else.
09:35 Anything else, He needs to know about this.
09:38 And the counselor, that guy's name was Joey.
09:42 He looks at me and he says, what's God telling you?
09:45 I said I need to write down every single name.
09:48 And it's crazy, it was-- there were some,
09:50 you know, again I had one night stands.
09:52 I didn't even know the names of some of these women.
09:55 And so, it's the girl in the dream dress.
09:59 It was this person, it was this, you know.
10:02 And as I've said a couple of times,
10:04 I was a boy scout, but I wasn't a saint.
10:07 So let me say, for somebody watching
10:10 'cause the program is gonna be about forgiveness.
10:12 As I am listening to my husband
10:17 talk about all this kind of stuff and I'm a molested kid.
10:21 I'm an abused--I've been abused my whole life.
10:25 I've been, you know,
10:27 I ended up on the streets at 13.
10:28 I had all of this kind of stuff.
10:30 And I'm listening and I'm thinking about all the men
10:34 that have injured me.
10:36 And now his story is becoming like that.
10:40 And it was a weird place to sit.
10:42 'Cause you know I had, I'm sitting there going,
10:44 God, you know, what do I do with that?
10:48 And I'm looking at you processing
10:51 and I know you have to process.
10:53 You have to go there. Yes, yeah.
10:54 And I have for a split second,
10:57 I can either forgive or not.
10:59 And so I want to cover something,
11:01 Brad, before we go on,
11:03 because I think it's really important,
11:04 is that and there's a graphic that I have is,
11:08 understanding forgiveness is that,
11:11 one of the clearest ways to understand forgiveness
11:13 is to look at how God forgives us.
11:17 Our sins stands in the way for our relationship with God.
11:21 Literally, stands in the way and God says,
11:23 I'm gonna move all of that out of the way from you
11:26 and I'm gonna forgive you.
11:27 I no longer condemn you.
11:28 And we can put some ugly stuff on the table.
11:31 I mean, and we do.
11:33 And in Romans, you know, 3:23
11:37 "As all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
11:39 God says, "I will forgive their iniquity and their sin,
11:42 I won't remember it anymore."
11:44 He says in Jeremiah, "I will abundantly pardon them."
11:47 You know, all of those kinds of things,
11:48 when He says that, for me personally.
11:51 And I've put a ton on the table,
11:53 you know, I've done that.
11:55 And so, as Brad is going through his issues,
11:57 God has reminded me who He is and the forgiveness
12:01 that he has put in my own life.
12:02 And He doesn't choose to focus on my faults.
12:05 He chooses to focus on His grace.
12:08 And who He is and how incredible
12:10 and huge His forgiveness is for us.
12:12 And He really does focus on that.
12:15 And as you were dealing with your stuff,
12:17 I'm hearing the Holy Spirit say,
12:19 "Remember how I've forgiven you."
12:21 I want you to extend that forgiveness to your spouse.
12:24 And I didn't know if I could.
12:26 Do you know, I don't know if I can? I don't know.
12:29 I don't know if I'm that, I have that much in me.
12:31 And you continued to talk. Right.
12:35 And I am thinking.
12:37 I don't even want to know anything else.
12:39 And yet you're healing, you had to have me know.
12:43 Right. I kind of got this little image and this is--
12:48 guys will relate to this maybe a little bit more than girls,
12:50 but our sin, and Satan and the sins
12:54 and the things we kind of create.
12:56 Almost create these walls in our mind sometime,
12:57 hides in the darkness.
12:59 Right, we grow clear about that distinction
13:01 between light and darkness.
13:03 And so I don't know what I was doing,
13:05 but I was wearing one of those
13:07 little strap-on headlamps, right.
13:08 And so, the light shines
13:10 where ever you look, when you wear that thing.
13:11 If I look over here, there's the light.
13:13 If I look over here, there's the light.
13:14 Okay, all of a sudden, a symbolism was so clear to me,
13:17 was like, look, God is the light.
13:19 And wherever you look that light's gonna shine.
13:22 So I have to be willing to look at the issue
13:25 and shine the light on it,
13:27 in order to chase the darkness out.
13:29 I mean, it was a little bit simple but--
13:30 And not be held in bondage to that.
13:31 And not be held in bondage because of that.
13:33 Because those barriers that we put up,
13:35 create the shadows that,
13:38 you know, Satan can then hide in
13:39 and take part chance at us or whatever.
13:41 You literally can, you know, build a wall around yourself.
13:43 So I had to shine the light on this issue.
13:46 And look at it and put it all on the table.
13:48 Or it would have followed you the rest of your life.
13:51 Definitely, destroyed any relationship.
13:53 Right, it would interfere with our ability
13:55 to actually love each other.
13:56 And that was you know,
13:58 I mean that's the ultimate goal, right?
13:59 I love you, yes.
14:01 So, you know,
14:02 and so what's really interesting is the first thing.
14:05 I don't know, if you remember the first thing,
14:07 you said to me during that whole process.
14:09 And you're looking about all of these different things.
14:12 And the fact that you were sexually active really early
14:14 and that you could just walk in.
14:18 And it wasn't even a matter of,
14:20 what her name was or whatever and all that kind of stuff,
14:22 as you're looking at this kind of stuff.
14:24 I remember the first thing, you said to me,
14:26 as you said, "Will you forgive me for all of the women
14:30 that I've had in my life?
14:32 And I remember thinking. I don't need to forgive you.
14:35 I mean, I'm not the saint and I have own stuff and...
14:38 But as soon as you said that and I said, yes.
14:42 There was some healing that happened.
14:43 I didn't need to hear you at least say to me,
14:47 I wish it would have been different for us.
14:48 I wish that you would have been my first love.
14:52 And I wish I would have known all that kind of stuff.
14:54 And I didn't even realize in a spiritual sense
14:57 how much God wants that for us.
15:00 And it was ridiculously cool. It was really cool.
15:04 But I think really for us, to really kind of complete,
15:08 at least for me, to completely cleanse that,
15:11 this had to go one step further
15:12 and I had to ask you forgive me
15:14 for being the kind of person that had--
15:17 Talk about that a little bit.
15:18 And that's a really crazy place to be again and I--
15:22 And you know, talk about the way,
15:24 'cause you really struggled with that for a long time,
15:27 before you were brave enough to even,
15:29 say it out loud to me.
15:31 I think so.
15:32 And again, it's probably one of those things
15:33 where growing up, I was far more influenced by the world
15:36 than I was by the church, I did not grow up.
15:39 While I was raised in the Methodist Church,
15:40 I wasn't active in any church.
15:42 When you met me I was nothing--
15:44 I had left the church at that time, too.
15:46 Yeah, I was, I don't know whether I was agnostic or not,
15:48 but I was just, I was nothing.
15:50 And so, there really was no moral compass.
15:53 There actually had been no spiritual protection,
15:54 in my household as well.
15:56 So I really believe I was subject
15:57 and really opened to all kinds of influences
16:02 that looking back on were extremely not healthy.
16:05 So to come to that place suddenly,
16:07 where you had to take a look at,
16:10 what is my character, who am I?
16:12 You know, who are my role models?
16:14 What I've done and what I've modeled my life after?
16:16 And is this something over here to be proud of.
16:19 You know or do you start to realize,
16:21 oh, my gosh, how many people
16:22 have I hurt or injured or wounded?
16:24 But you know what's really interesting to me
16:26 in watching that process, Brad, that you went through,
16:30 is that you weren't asking
16:32 that of the church or of the world anymore.
16:34 You were asking that of God.
16:35 God, who am I? Yes.
16:37 And what is my character? Yes.
16:38 And so to me, you know, when we ever, in our addiction
16:41 when we turn to God and say, God, who am I?
16:44 As a woman, who am I? As a man, who am I?
16:47 As far as, you know, good, bad, all kind of stuff.
16:52 And the standard is now God.
16:55 He's really gentle, but He shows us
16:57 that we have been lied to.
16:59 That we have really given ourselves away
17:01 and prostituted ourselves out to the world
17:04 and He's gonna try to redeem that.
17:07 And so being able to sit there and ask you
17:09 will you forgive me for being that person?
17:12 That guy. At one time.
17:14 That guy--I was the guy who would have been
17:16 trying to pick you up off the street.
17:18 You know, I would have been that guy.
17:19 So then, now the ball's in your court.
17:22 And you know again to achieve a level of intimacy,
17:26 you know, the kind of intimacy
17:27 that I believe God really wants for all of us,
17:30 requires am I willing to-- I'm gonna say,
17:35 have His level and not that we can ever get close to that.
17:37 But at least attempt, to forgive in the manner
17:40 that He forgives because He forgives everything.
17:43 So for that moment, for that moment,
17:47 I understood the most incredible thing
17:50 that we can do for each other
17:53 is to say, I forgive you.
17:55 I forgive you, not because of any other thing,
17:59 but because God has forgiven me.
18:01 Do you know what I mean?
18:02 And I knew that what you had said
18:05 is that I thought about different people in my life
18:09 that have injured me.
18:10 I thought about all that kind of stuff.
18:12 I thought about everything
18:13 that you were bringing to the table
18:14 and sharing from the time that you were young.
18:17 And God said, I felt like God was just saying
18:20 "Please, Cheri, don't mess this one up.
18:23 Release him."
18:25 'Cause, you know, and it was an incredible place to be
18:28 as just look at you and say, I forgive you and I love you.
18:32 We'll get through this. We'll get through it.
18:34 And what's really cool
18:36 and I know we're gonna talk about this
18:37 coming up in a little bit.
18:39 But the process that we used
18:40 in working through that level of forgiveness,
18:43 it's more so then and I've talked about this before.
18:45 You know, you have these issues and you walk along
18:48 and maybe you'll get a little help somewhere,
18:51 some counseling and so, you know,
18:52 you're dragging this chain behind you,
18:54 all these issues, great.
18:56 To give you some wheels to put on that stuff.
18:58 So it's not quite so hard to pull along.
19:00 Where, you're still pulling it.
19:02 It's still there, but, you know, it's not quite so noticeable.
19:04 Well, then, maybe you work some more on your stuff
19:06 and some more counseling depending on what it is.
19:08 And, well, now it's motorized,
19:09 it put a little motor on you--
19:11 I can even go up hill-- It drives itself.
19:13 You know, it's not a big deal to be holding it around.
19:16 But the kind of freedom that God is asking.
19:18 The healing and forgiveness
19:19 that He is offering us is in fact,
19:21 you don't even have it anymore.
19:23 I don't have to carry this. I don't have to carry it at all.
19:26 And so to me when we kind of got to that place
19:28 where suddenly the burden that was lifted was unbelievable.
19:31 And I think we were both able to see each other
19:34 in a totally different light.
19:35 In a certain way that, you know, it's just really different.
19:38 And I think sometimes,
19:40 you speak a little bit more to the men right now.
19:42 That's really hard for guys to do.
19:45 You have to be willing to be vulnerable in a certain way,
19:47 but the reality is the payoff is huge.
19:50 In what sense?
19:53 Women need a place to be safe and to be trusting.
19:58 And I think when they have a man who is willing to be one,
20:02 that vulnerable and that open to them,
20:04 to be willing to share that much, that's huge.
20:07 'Cause you fight to be a safe place for your family.
20:11 And so I think for a lot of your journey
20:15 is I'm amazed at how much you fight to keep us safe
20:19 even from the influences of your past.
20:22 Oh, absolutely.
20:25 I think the pressure on men in general society,
20:28 is so far removed from what God intends to be a man.
20:32 It's so far removed that for guys.
20:35 It really, it's a huge, it's a huge battle.
20:38 But with my willingness to actually be
20:41 that vulnerable with you
20:43 and your willingness to forgive me,
20:45 certainly, you know that I really do care.
20:48 I am trying to be a safe place and also a strong place,
20:52 'cause when I get rid of that baggage,
20:54 I can be much stronger. Much--
20:55 You're willing to be the spiritual leader of house.
20:59 One time I remember and this cracked me up
21:02 'cause I just wanted to kiss you all over the face.
21:04 But I remember you were at the university,
21:06 at work and having lunch with a number of other professors.
21:09 Do you remember that day? I do. I do remember that day.
21:13 And what I heard, just so you know,
21:16 you're talking about the day.
21:18 And this incredibly hot, young thing walks by the table.
21:23 And each of the professor's talks about this girl
21:27 and what they saw
21:29 and what they would like to do and whatever.
21:32 And you said in the middle of that table.
21:34 You know, I'm trying to honor God and my wife
21:37 and I don't allow myself to go there anymore.
21:39 And you're telling me that and I'm like shut up,
21:42 I love you, come near.
21:44 And I think that you told it to me so casually,
21:46 but I think every woman wants to know
21:49 that not only have you dealt with your stuff,
21:51 but you brought it at the table.
21:53 You handed it to God.
21:54 You came clean with me personally.
21:57 And you and God are dealing with that. Right.
22:01 You know, it's not something you're doing
22:02 because you know what, you know that I want you to do it.
22:05 But you're doing it 'cause you're a man of God
22:07 and that's what you want to do.
22:09 I love that. Exactly.
22:11 Did I ever say thank you for that?
22:12 I don't know if you did. Thank you, hun.
22:14 Oh, in public, in front of people now.
22:15 I know. I love this. Go ahead.
22:19 So the thing that I think is important
22:21 and we've done this for each other.
22:23 'Cause you've certainly brought all kinds of things to me,
22:25 issues and stuff from your past and different things.
22:27 I have a few. You know, so do we all.
22:30 You know, but it's I don't know how to say,
22:33 the sincerity of forgiveness or the level of forgiveness.
22:36 And I think that's where,
22:38 you know, who can forgive, but God really.
22:41 And so, when we through study
22:45 whatever get the Holy Spirit really, truly is in us.
22:48 Then our ability to forgive becomes genuine and true
22:51 and deep and to what you do.
22:53 You're dropping this stuff off.
22:54 You're not hauling it around on wheels anymore.
22:56 You're not trying to carry it around.
22:58 What's really interesting to me,
22:59 is I think that there's something
23:01 that you said during this process
23:02 is that you always kind of felt like you--
23:05 there's a, that part of you have to hide.
23:07 And now that part of you is not even there.
23:08 That God said let me just remove that and show you,
23:12 who you are outside of that garbage.
23:14 Right. Outside of that knowledge.
23:18 And I think that and this is still,
23:21 this is a little bit scary territory for me.
23:23 When at this point is to have a man
23:26 and I consider myself to be a man's man.
23:29 I go skiing and I'm a pretty aggressive skier.
23:33 I do hundred mile bike rides. I hike.
23:36 And you know, you get in my face,
23:38 I'm gonna respond, you know, kind of thing.
23:42 You know, from that standpoint,
23:43 but by the same token is to see compassion
23:47 in people to have understanding
23:48 and be willing to say out loud in public.
23:51 You know, I forgive you or I was wrong or,
23:55 you know, gosh, I bet that just really hurts.
23:56 I mean, there's just things that men haven't been allowed to do
24:00 and haven't been allowed to be, by society, today.
24:03 And that is such a lie.
24:05 Yeah, but it's cool.
24:06 When I even watch you go there. It's very cool.
24:09 And as I do that you feel safe.
24:12 That I am safe to tell this guy anything.
24:14 And I'm not gonna get rejected.
24:16 I am not gonna, you know,
24:17 there isn't gonna be some kind of backlashes.
24:19 He's not gonna get real angry. Right.
24:21 He's gonna take a look and understand,
24:23 as best you can, with his feeble male mind.
24:26 Yeah. And--
24:27 I love, I heard you say to someone,
24:29 when you were doing, you were talking to group,
24:31 at one point is you'd said
24:33 that when I surrendered this stuff to God
24:37 and worked on the issue where Cheri asked her forgiveness.
24:41 I realized it that I got everything at that point.
24:44 I got everything I wanted in a relationship
24:45 so can you explain what that meant.
24:47 And 'cause a lot of guys, I don't think realize
24:49 that you get everything. Right.
24:52 And we talked about this a little bit,
24:55 maybe last year, but I'll go in again is,
24:58 you know, women want a place to be safe and feel cared for.
25:01 Men want to be respected.
25:04 If the woman doesn't feel safe and cared for,
25:07 she has a real hard time respecting the guy.
25:09 And so it's and then you get to the thing,
25:11 I always call who's gonna blink first.
25:12 You know, you get to that place
25:14 where someone has to be willing to make the first step
25:17 or do something in a capacity to start to open the door
25:20 for conversation or a gesture or a something.
25:23 And to me, its really clear.
25:26 And I think the Bible is pretty true,
25:27 that responsibility falls on the guy really,
25:29 to take the first step.
25:31 I think it falls on the guys to
25:34 do more than take the first step.
25:36 And be willing to really just--
25:38 What's really funny is I'm trying to let you say that
25:41 and every woman's like whatever.
25:43 We've been taking this first step forever.
25:45 But it's really interesting to watch for somebody
25:49 to step up into that place
25:50 and give the woman permission to not have to carry it all.
25:54 And so that's I think an incredible thing is that,
25:58 you know, it is fun, when somebody takes
26:00 the spiritual leadership and a woman can sit down
26:03 and not have to take it.
26:05 And then what happens is, soon as the man feels
26:07 even the tiniest little respect from his wife, all of a sudden,
26:12 it's like well, well that's really cool.
26:14 And so chief, I did this, I get.
26:16 You know, its, you know, and not that it is, you know,
26:20 when you want to say an even exchange necessarily but--
26:24 The result is that you get what you want
26:26 and suddenly I get what I want.
26:28 And everybody wins. That's the thing to me.
26:29 I look at that whole situation is when you can be open
26:32 and sincere and truly forgiving.
26:35 And everybody wins.
26:38 There was some statistics that I thought were really interesting.
26:41 And I'd like to cover that, is that
26:43 when somebody is lost in sexual sin
26:45 or pornography and all that kind of stuff,
26:47 is they're able to love the people
26:49 in their life at a small percent.
26:51 Somebody says 3% to 12%.
26:54 So you're not present
26:56 and you're not doing an exchange.
26:58 And even in intimate situations, most women will feel somehow,
27:02 that may be you're thinking about someone else
27:04 or you're with someone else or whatever.
27:06 And so, statistics say that unless that stuff is cleaned up.
27:11 You can't connect really intimately.
27:13 And I think that God,
27:15 this is gonna, I'm sorry I got frisky.
27:17 I think that God knows that.
27:19 Soon as I was going to say, I thought how silly is that.
27:22 God knows that.
27:23 God is saying "You are asking me
27:26 to give you life and life abundantly.
27:29 And with all of these things in your pocket are in hiding,
27:32 I can't do that."
27:34 And so you have to be willing.
27:35 And I think He's asking all of us,
27:37 be willing to bring this stuff out.
27:40 Let me clean out your closets.
27:42 Let me get this stuff out of your pockets.
27:43 Let me get these relationships to be real.
27:47 And at one point, if you allow that to happen,
27:50 you truly will live abundantly.
27:54 It's real interesting.
27:55 And again looking at, as we went through all the stuff
27:57 and realizing and I had kind of known this a while ago,
28:00 but looking at it more objectively
28:02 that I grew up in an alcoholic family.
28:05 Now they were socially functional alcoholics.
28:07 And it wasn't like this was the, you know,
28:10 the person stumbling down the alley kind of thing.
28:11 Hey, you're mom's a violinist. Violinist.
28:13 You're dad, a research scientist.
28:14 Research engineer for the federal government
28:16 and stuff, but, you know, I can remember at the young.
28:19 There's always alcohol in the house,
28:20 always alcohol in the house.
28:22 And, you know, I succumbed to that early,
28:24 but that emotional thing.
28:25 Again, that in spite we did cool stuff.
28:27 We did cool stuff all the time. I love my parents.
28:29 My dad has passed, but I love them dearly.
28:32 We did cool stuff, but the emotional connection
28:35 that God so desires us to have with each other
28:38 and with Him 3%, 5%--
28:41 Was not there. Was not there.
28:43 You know, to this day my mom sometimes wonders,
28:45 why her kids don't call her so often.
28:48 You raised us.
28:51 And that don't mean that in a vindictive sense,
28:54 but somehow that was the environment
28:57 that, you know, we lived in.
28:58 It's interesting our son-in-law,
29:00 all his family lives right next to each other.
29:02 And, man, they're a family. You know, what I mean?
29:04 They're just at each others house, all the time hanging out.
29:08 I'm 1,800 miles away from my own mom.
29:11 I got one sister, who is 250 miles away
29:13 and another one that's 160 miles away.
29:16 So like, you know, our family went--
29:19 And, you know, so it's interesting thing
29:20 to realize and look at that.
29:22 You now, in terms of that dynamic
29:23 of where our emotional place is.
29:26 And I think that, what I think it's incredible about
29:29 who God is, is God says,
29:31 "As you come into relationship with me,
29:34 that I want to bring recovery, in all of those areas,
29:38 recovery to your families, of origin recovery
29:41 to your relationships now, recovery to your children."
29:44 So that genetically, you're not passing that same stuff down.
29:48 But, you know, I think that when we step into our Christianity.
29:51 We step in our Christianity in a way that is just so,
29:54 I don't know what we think recovery is.
29:57 God says I'm really taking this damaged thing.
30:01 And I wish that if we could see how incredibly damaged, we are.
30:04 I think that we would just be going like, God.
30:06 Are you sure, you can fix this? Do you know what I mean?
30:08 But I think, He really takes that and says, if you trust me,
30:12 turn it all the way over 'cause there is not a part of us.
30:15 I don't think that actually
30:17 doesn't need some kind of recovery.
30:19 So let's, getting back to the idea of forgiveness
30:22 and some other things that go with that.
30:24 This is really interesting is, in order for me to be free of
30:27 some of the baggage I inherited from my father,
30:29 all the sexual stuff.
30:30 And realizing the things some of the alcoholism and other things.
30:34 My dad's dead.
30:36 There's no way, you know,
30:38 he can ask for forgiveness or apologize to me.
30:42 And yet I needed to forgive him.
30:44 And so and forgive him in a manner whereby,
30:46 I truly am done with this stuff.
30:49 So what was real interesting,
30:51 as we with the process that we did,
30:52 with the counseling with Joe, and he,
30:55 who was an Italian named attorney from New Jersey,
30:59 so he was relentless, relentless in his stuff.
31:02 But he introduced us to this process of forgiveness
31:05 that was so powerful.
31:07 That allows, it allows you to actually be free.
31:10 Not just, oh yeah, I forgive it.
31:11 I'm gonna put it over on the shelf here
31:12 and get it out of the way.
31:14 I'm gonna try to explain some of the process.
31:17 And so, we have one graphic I want to put up.
31:20 It's called the process of forgiveness.
31:26 Imagine in your life, imagine an event happens.
31:31 You acted out sexually or sexual abuse, verbal abuse,
31:34 domestic violence or whatever.
31:36 This event happens and a lot of times,
31:38 we'll go back and we'll try to heal this event.
31:42 My dad molested me since I was 6 months old.
31:44 I mean, my parents were addicts.
31:46 I mean, I have all of this kind of stuff.
31:48 I could go back to any of those issues and I can keep saying
31:51 okay, I forgive my dad, I forgive whatever.
31:53 But I think that we don't realize that we have an enemy
31:56 and the devil is strategic in the way he attacks us.
32:00 And what he does from the event
32:02 is he sets up schemes that come up from the event.
32:05 When I was neglected I then felt angry,
32:09 I felt unloved, I felt like--
32:12 And so, here's the event.
32:17 Here's all of the stuff that came out of that event.
32:21 I felt so insecure.
32:24 I felt like there is nobody that is going to be trusted.
32:27 There's nobody in the world that's gonna understand me.
32:29 So there's so many things that come out of that.
32:31 And so it's not the event that damages me.
32:34 It's my years of believing all of those lives.
32:37 And so God says I'm gonna actually have to come in,
32:41 not only and deal with the original injury,
32:44 but everything that you carry with your every single day.
32:47 And the Bible talks about, you know,
32:50 the Satan and strongholds
32:52 and arrows and all that kind of stuff.
32:53 And I believe the devil sets us up,
32:56 to every single time that there's an event,
32:58 that's close to that.
33:00 All of those lies come back up.
33:01 So somebody that-- relationship,
33:05 current relationship breaks up or friendship breaks up.
33:06 I lose a job.
33:08 I say the same thing, I'm unloved.
33:09 I'm not good enough.
33:10 All the lies repeat themselves
33:12 and God says I want you
33:13 to not only look at this original damage.
33:18 But I want you to kind of turn over to me,
33:20 every scheme that came off of that damage.
33:23 I want you to-- you know,
33:26 when you talk about like with your dad.
33:28 I want you maybe, if he owed you a debt in someway
33:31 and I want you to pay his debt and then surrender that me.
33:35 When I think, the thing that
33:36 and this is the part that at times
33:37 when some people hear this, it's really startling is, okay,
33:42 so you had this event
33:43 and then all these emotions are going on, right?
33:45 And you get here and it's like
33:46 oh, yeah, but this is event, this event.
33:49 That event hasn't happened in 35 years.
33:52 So all these emotions are from who?
33:57 They're from your self.
33:58 So who's the perpetrator? You become your own perpetrator.
34:01 You are wounding yourself, all of those times
34:05 and because that event, that event is long on.
34:07 It doesn't mean there shouldn't be forgiveness for the event,
34:09 there absolutely should, but all that emotional baggage.
34:13 Whose fault is that?
34:14 That's my fault and that was just--
34:16 Because I'm believing those lies.
34:17 'Cause I'm believing the lies.
34:19 And it was one of those things, where all of a sudden,
34:20 it was like, you know, hold every thought captive.
34:23 Think about things that are good and positive
34:25 and just and true and pure.
34:26 And how often do I do that?
34:28 Boy, I had struggle with that one because I'm mad,
34:31 because someone did this.
34:32 Or I'm hurt because someone did this.
34:33 So I feel, you know, and so that realization
34:36 and that understanding certainly
34:38 that I'm actually responsible and can pay.
34:43 And what I love about, even as you turn
34:47 that over to God and say to God.
34:49 You know what I'd like to turn over
34:50 not only the original injury, but all the schemes
34:54 that the devil set up in my life, from over the years.
34:56 And I want to surrender all of that to you.
34:59 And any ground that I gave the devil.
35:00 Because of this-- Territory.
35:02 You know any territory and any ground.
35:04 And, you know, being able to say is redeem that stuff.
35:08 You know, we store that stuff.
35:10 And I watched in-- well in my life,
35:14 but definitely in your life, too.
35:15 As your wife, I watch God just
35:17 start redeeming and restoring that.
35:19 I am creating a new or showing you who he created you to be.
35:24 You are a man of God, a son, you know,
35:26 you're one of his children.
35:27 You're adopted into all that kind of stuff.
35:29 And watching as I give this garbage up,
35:32 that God just says now let me stand you up
35:34 and show you, who you are.
35:35 Exactly, what's really been amazing
35:37 and interesting thing and again biblically,
35:39 I'm the last male in my family line.
35:41 So, this was a scary realization.
35:43 I'm like the priest of the household,
35:45 it's like a no way.
35:47 You're kidding, you know, it's not me--
35:48 'Cause even in our relationship,
35:51 I think we were married 20 years or so,
35:55 before you even decided to look at, who God was.
35:57 Really seriously. Right.
35:58 You know, I mean, I'd come to belief and stuff certainly
36:02 before that, but in a real nature.
36:03 But what's been real interesting,
36:05 as I have used to this process to take responsibility
36:10 and pay for the pain and consequences different.
36:13 We'll talk about this in a minute.
36:15 That the arrogance in my family did that, the sexual,
36:19 heightened sexual activity, I don't know
36:22 what you would call this,
36:23 still form of sexual abuse, it wasn't physical.
36:25 But the pride all these different things,
36:29 fear that's another that's come up, is fear.
36:32 And I'm choosing to pay for that on behalf of my family.
36:38 And what's been amazing to me and I've been doing this
36:40 and praying this for a while.
36:42 I have a sister who is several members of my family,
36:45 struggle with alcohol, but my sister in particular,
36:47 absolute issue with alcohol.
36:50 This summer reached a crisis point
36:52 and now has been sober for about six months or so.
36:56 And, you know, I mean, now when I stop to think,
36:58 is that a result of my prayer.
37:00 You know and Cheri's family
37:04 we've always prayed for some connection there.
37:06 And this is the most amazing thing.
37:08 Her mom sent her an email.
37:11 A card last Christmas which was unheard of, and another thing,
37:14 I wish you'd come visit and for you that's life.
37:16 That's you. That is like you.
37:17 But let me, I'm gonna try to explain
37:21 the process in a way that I think,
37:23 that at least made sense to me.
37:25 That if I was coming-- let's say,
37:27 I came out on the parking lot and I ran into your car.
37:31 You're parked right out front. I ran into your car.
37:33 Then I came in and I say, you know, I totaled it.
37:36 I am sorry. And you're like sorry.
37:39 Do you have insurance?
37:40 And I give you an insurance card, but it's a fake.
37:44 You find out that I'm a fake. I've no money.
37:48 And you're like wait a minute.
37:49 No, no, no, you need to pay for this.
37:51 And I say yeah, whatever. And I'm walking away.
37:54 You decide for the next five years or so,
37:57 to take me to court, to try to get some money,
38:00 to try to get some resolution.
38:01 I shouldn't have to fix my car. You ran into me.
38:05 And so even though, that's the truth, I owe you.
38:10 Eventually you're gonna have to say,
38:12 I'm willing to pay her debt and fix my car
38:15 and move on with my life.
38:17 And I think sometimes with our history,
38:19 with our abuses and with all of the stuff.
38:22 There's a point that we have to say, it is a 100% true.
38:27 Someone owes you. It wasn't right.
38:31 There's something you have been given.
38:33 The fact that I was molested since I was really tiny,
38:36 that wasn't right, but I have to say,
38:38 you know what, I'm willing to pay for the pain
38:40 and consequences, that my dad caused me.
38:43 And I'm willing to pay for that.
38:44 And I asked God to break any scheme
38:47 that the devil set up in my life because of that.
38:50 Take back any ground that I gave the enemy
38:53 because of all of that.
38:54 And, you know, when I think about
38:56 who ultimately pays for our sin is Christ.
38:59 So I'm gonna then give all of that back to him.
39:02 But first I have to take responsibility,
39:04 I'm willing to pay for the damage
39:06 that happened in my family and in my life
39:08 and then I'm gonna surrender that to God.
39:10 And no longer can the devil hit me with the same thing.
39:13 I've paid that. I have given that to God.
39:16 Jesus said that His blood covers that and he will redeem me.
39:21 You know what it's really interesting
39:22 because I know it's true.
39:25 I don't have to carry it anymore.
39:26 And this is a really important part of this.
39:28 And again because this guy was an attorney,
39:31 he probably approaches this way, but I think it is actually
39:33 a really critical part of this thing.
39:36 If I own a piece of property,
39:40 but let's say I have a loan on it.
39:41 The bank owns part of that.
39:43 So I want to sell that piece of property.
39:44 I can't till I satisfy that lean to the bank.
39:48 All this emotional baggage that we've carried around
39:50 or something will happen to you.
39:52 And you say, look, I'm never letting
39:53 anybody do that to me again.
39:55 No one's gonna push me around again.
39:56 No one's gonna hurt me like that again.
39:58 Well, unless you were dee in prayer, over that with God.
40:01 You just actually made a covenant with the devil.
40:03 You made a vow. A vow.
40:04 Right, not so a covenant but a vow.
40:06 And that most of us are walking with all this stuff.
40:08 So now God please forgive me for this area.
40:12 The devil steps in, and, hey, wait a minute.
40:14 You actually don't have a legal right
40:17 to this little piece over here.
40:18 I mean, you can get this parts fine,
40:20 but remember when she was eight years old.
40:21 She said, man, no ones ever gonna do this to me again.
40:23 Because of their bitterness or their pain--
40:25 Whatever it was. Their anger.
40:27 And so the part about, when we say
40:30 I choose to pay for the pain and consequences.
40:33 I essentially now, I'm taking ownership for all that stuff,
40:37 the event itself, all the emotional baggage
40:39 that I've been carrying and generating in my whole life,
40:43 which really is my fault anyway.
40:45 I'm actually gonna, okay-- You're right.
40:47 You know what, this is my fault.
40:49 I'm gonna clean this
40:51 and my responsibility, let me phrase that.
40:53 My responsibility now that I own it.
40:56 Now I'm free to give it away, but if I don't own it first
41:00 legally, it's called what?
41:01 Criminal interference?
41:03 Criminal interference is what Joe said?
41:04 That the legal term. It's very attorney.
41:06 And that's--the Bible is considered what a covenant,
41:08 a binding agreement between us and God.
41:10 And there's all kinds of things in there
41:12 that really our entire courts of law are based upon,
41:15 the biblical principles.
41:17 And so, you know when we started to understand it--
41:21 And God says I freely take it.
41:23 Yeah. I want to take it.
41:24 He wants to take it. I died for that.
41:25 But we have to own. You can carry it, if you want.
41:27 But it's too heavy for you.
41:29 Exactly. But-- It will destroy you.
41:30 We have to own it, in order to unhook Satan,
41:33 from all of those different areas.
41:35 And so someone says, and there are some things in our life
41:37 I think that are really too personal, too ugly or whatever.
41:41 And I don't have to say that to everybody.
41:43 I can just say it to God.
41:45 God forgive me and you know the stuff that I deal with.
41:48 But I think that, there's a thing in the Bible
41:50 that I think is just, God is so brilliant.
41:53 Confess your sins one to another.
41:55 Pray for each other so that you may be healed.
41:58 I mean, there's that really interesting thing
42:01 that He just says that there's something about the devil
42:05 that he just keeps us in secret.
42:06 He keeps us bound up. He keeps us locked up.
42:10 And God says don't do that for yourself.
42:12 You know, I hope that this was helpful to you.
42:16 Definitely, going through this
42:17 with Brad and I, was helpful to me.
42:19 But there is nothing that you can hold on,
42:22 all of that ugly stuff, all of that sin,
42:24 if you hold on to it, it's going to destroy you.
42:26 And what God says as you know what,
42:28 you handed it all to me and I will fix it.
42:30 I will give you life and life abundantly
42:33 all of that kind of stuff.
42:34 And this is the key forgiveness,
42:37 a lot of people in your life to heal.
42:39 Heal yourself. Turn it over to God.
42:41 And don't carry it anymore. Really don't carry it anymore.
42:45 And for our hundredth program, I want you to hear
42:48 that more than you hear anything else.
42:50 Unburden yourself.
42:51 That there is a transformation that God wants for us.
42:54 That is real. It is cool.
42:57 And it's different than anything that we've known.
42:59 And the world cannot give it, only God.
43:02 We're gonna take a break.
43:04 We're gonna come back
43:05 and I'm gonna introduce you to the entire crew.
43:07 Well, maybe not the entire crew, but most of us.
43:10 We gonna have cake. We're gonna celebrate.
43:12 And I just got to say that I can't thank anybody,
43:14 but you for this hundredth season.
43:17 God bless. We'll be right back.