Participants: Ron and Celeste Lee, Cheri Peters
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000007
00:11 Welcome to Celebrating Life In Recovery, I'm Cheri
00:13 your host and today we are going to look at change.
00:15 Some people will say I don't even know how to change,
00:20 I don't know what needs to be changed.
00:21 So today we will get what Jesus Christ does to get us
00:25 to a place where we except change and our very desires
00:29 will change so join us as we look at that.
00:59 I laugh when I think about when I came to Christ,
01:01 I was such a mess.
01:03 I was in a drug house trying to kill myself, had an
01:07 encounter with God and felt beyond a shadow of a doubt
01:13 that He could change my life and I needed to find
01:15 a place to recover.
01:17 So I end up calling the only person I know, the only
01:20 person I know that was fairly normal.
01:23 I had been homeless for 10 years, I had been on the
01:25 street for 10 years surrounded by addicts so when I say
01:28 fairly normal, it isn't even close to what some people
01:31 would think normal was, but I called them up.
01:34 I said you know I need some help desperately.
01:36 I need to find a place to recover.
01:38 When I met God in the drug house, I was trying to kill
01:41 myself and God never once told me Cheri you know what?
01:43 Now that you've got it, now that you understand I'm God,
01:47 I want you to clean up, I want you to stop doing drugs,
01:49 I want you to stop lying whatever, all He said to me
01:52 is that I absolutely adore you.
01:54 I adore you and I love you and I want to help you to heal.
01:58 In that it gave me the courage to stand up and say
02:01 you know what? I want to get away from this stuff,
02:03 these drugs and all of that.
02:05 So I called this person who has a sister who is a
02:08 Christian and says that I can stay at her house, right?
02:10 I drive, I don't know eight hours to get to her house.
02:15 I get to her house and I am withdrawing from drugs
02:18 because I don't realize I say no drugs and
02:21 I'm going to find a place to recover but I am not
02:23 right now in a good place.
02:25 In that He sets me in a place, in a Christian home with
02:30 somebody that is actually a vegan vegetarian and amazing.
02:33 And I always joke that this women was quite a bit older
02:37 than I am but she was a health nut.
02:40 So she was so healthy she would say we need to get out
02:42 side and in the sun and all that stuff.
02:46 We need to hike and I'm thinking I smoke three packs of
02:48 cigarettes a day, I'm a recovering heroin addict, I am
02:51 withdrawing from drugs and I'm thinking you go hike.
02:54 I'm actually okay, and I remember just being and it was
02:58 so funny but she loved and nurtured me and those things.
03:02 When I finally trusted her enough to really allow her to
03:06 teach me the Bible, to teach me about what God says,
03:09 she started teaching me different things and one of
03:11 thing she taught me was the story of Mary Magdalene.
03:14 Reading Mary Magdalena in the Bible for those of you that
03:16 don't know is a prostitute, right?
03:19 She was drug to Jesus feet and thrown at His feet and people
03:24 were saying, you know what was her crime she should be
03:27 stoned to death, she should be killed.
03:29 God doesn't do that, Jesus doesn't do that, He looks at
03:32 her with so much compassion that He really convicts them
03:37 as God does with us, of their sin, of their damage.
03:41 He says whoever doesn't have any sin throw the first
03:44 stone at her and we will condemn her to death.
03:46 We will stone her to death.
03:48 And pretty soon everybody walks away, she is so hesitant
03:51 to even look up at Him, and He just looked at her with
03:54 so much love and says I don't even condemn you.
03:56 I love you, go and don't hurt yourself anymore.
03:59 And when I heard that the first time, go and don't hurt
04:03 yourself anymore, that God is not saying go and be good,
04:07 go and don't embarrass Me, He is saying go and don't hurt
04:11 yourself, don't put all the stuff into your life, don't
04:14 let people abuse you, don't get lost in your addictions.
04:18 He is literally saying I just so love you.
04:20 She felt so much in love from Him that she followed Him
04:23 the rest of her life, the rest of her life she was so
04:26 dedicated to God and wanted to stand holy in the presence
04:30 of a holy God because of the love she felt from Him.
04:32 Not because He told her she had to, this is just her
04:35 response from that love.
04:37 The next story they tell me, and I love this one.
04:39 She tells me the story about the demoniac and says
04:43 a guy in the Bible and he is ugly, he is ugly.
04:48 He was like cutting on himself with stones.
04:50 He is beating people up, he's chained up and foaming
04:54 at the mouth and is filled with demons.
04:56 Did I tell you he is ugly, did I tell you I mean
05:00 he is ugly, ugly, ugly.
05:02 And the whole time she is talking I'm thinking what
05:04 happened to him, and she says again did I say that this
05:07 guy was ugly? I'm thinking you did.
05:10 And so she says ugly, filled with demons, cutting on
05:14 himself and people tried to chain him up and he would
05:16 break the chains, they were afraid of him.
05:18 I'm thinking the whole time, let me know what happened
05:20 because I think I dated that guy.
05:22 So she is acting like this is a guy that never has
05:26 existed, and I'm thinking you have never been on the
05:28 streets, you've never been in a lot of prisons because
05:31 there are people that are filled with demons.
05:33 There are people that are so filled with rage that kind
05:36 of stuff is normal and I want to know what happened.
05:39 She said Christ stood in front of him and everybody else
05:42 ran, everyone that Christ was with ran away.
05:46 But Jesus stood there and new that in the heart of heart
05:50 of this guy, he wanted to be normal.
05:53 He wanted to be well and Jesus set there and called
05:56 the demons out and rebuked them.
05:58 God got them out of this guy's life and the next time
06:01 people saw him he was sane and in his right mind.
06:03 That is absolutely incredible, this guy that was filled
06:07 with demons is now free and in his right mind, sitting
06:09 next to Christ.
06:11 And I love because Christ is getting ready to go somewhere
06:14 else because the town folks flip out because of all the
06:18 stuff that happened and asked Him to leave the region.
06:20 And this guy says can I go with you please?
06:22 And as I'm hearing this story I'm thinking I can so
06:25 relate to that guy.
06:27 I know that there are a lot of people I was on the
06:29 streets with that if they knew there was a God out there
06:33 that could bring those kind of changes, can take some
06:35 body from crazy to being filled with demons and having
06:38 all that anger and can bring healing into the life.
06:42 Not only healing where you are sane, he's got restored
06:46 sanity, I'm in my right mind.
06:48 All that anger for first-time in my life is gone and I'm
06:50 thinking Amen, Amen and as I looked at the Bible, as I
06:55 first of all left this woman's house, I have done recovery
07:00 she has taught me some things and I leave her house and
07:02 join a church and it was hysterical because I don't know
07:06 how to dress. I don't know how to dress, I don't know
07:09 how to talk, I don't know how to eat right, speak right.
07:13 I could read a little bit, maybe second grade level but
07:17 I was fairly illiterate.
07:18 I came running in the church, hello I'm here and
07:22 I love God and how amazing is that?
07:25 What was funny is that He loves me and I remember
07:28 coming in and the church I came into was very
07:31 conservative and very standoffish with my excitement
07:36 and definitely with the way I looked.
07:38 Because I came into a very conservative church I put every
07:41 single piece of jewelry that I owned on.
07:43 My best outfit was a little short skirt kind of thing.
07:48 I just thought I looked adorable and they didn't agree with me.
07:52 I was smoking three packs a day so I had billows of smoke
07:56 following me and I just showed up.
07:59 I was so in love with God, and I know that
08:02 He was so in love with me.
08:03 The response I got in the building was not, they weren't
08:11 as sure, they weren't as sure and it was so funny.
08:15 So I sat down and tried to behave and I remember for
08:18 a while I would come in and spray perfume all over because
08:22 I thought maybe they don't like the smell of smoke.
08:25 And remember I'd just come from homeless less so I don't
08:28 have a lot of money so the perfume was very cheap and
08:31 I was sprayed from head to toe and I would come in.
08:34 And what was interesting to me was the entire time
08:38 God was saying, I love you, I adore you, I think you are
08:43 beautiful and I will bring changes into your life.
08:47 So we talked about it, I was so used to being on the
08:53 streets, I was so manipulative, if I was uncomfortable
08:57 in any way, if I was unsure of myself in any way I have
09:01 and detachment disorder because of all the early
09:03 molest and that means I could leave in my head and be
09:06 somewhere else, or be someone else or whatever.
09:08 I was so adaptable that I could do that at the drop of a
09:11 hat, in fact in my recovery to learn to stay present was
09:15 a huge thing, I mean it was a huge thing.
09:18 So I ended up coming into the church trying to do the best
09:22 I could and someone told me at one point you know Cheri
09:27 the reason you are such a mess is that you are not eating
09:31 right, and I've got to tell you there is so much truth to
09:34 that, what we put in our body and how we take care of
09:37 our self is a big deal, it's absolutely a big deal.
09:40 But the way this person brought it across as very much
09:43 condemning, it wasn't brought across in love at all.
09:47 So I kind of took it like what do you mean?
09:51 It wasn't that I was molested since the day I was born
09:54 in homeless or 10 years and all that stuff,
09:56 I'm just not eating brown rice and I remember just
09:59 thinking how crazy is that?
10:02 I went to a class on how to eat right and I was in the
10:06 first row of this class because for one, I don't know
10:10 if you can recognize I am somewhat ADD.
10:13 So I am a little hyper and I am in the front row because
10:17 I do not want to miss anything, because if this is going to help
10:19 me survive I want to learn any thing I need to learn.
10:22 I got so hurt in this class because the only thing
10:26 that I got from it is that if I ever eaten or done
10:31 anything like eating wrong, or done something wrong to
10:35 my body I couldn't get it spiritually.
10:37 I'm sure that wasn't the message, but I got this
10:40 message and it felt like somebody was reaching into
10:43 my chest and pulling Christ out, literally pulling Christ out.
10:47 I was afraid and I ended up leaving and went home and I
10:51 was sobbing, snob dripping out of my nose sobbing and just
10:55 saying God this cannot be true because I can't survive.
10:58 I don't know what I'll do if God isn't real.
11:01 If your love for me isn't real, if I have no chance of
11:04 coming out of this I'm not sure what I would do.
11:07 And God gives me this, I hate to say vision because that
11:11 is an odd thing to say, but He gave me this vision of
11:15 what happened to me years ago and it really happened.
11:18 I was a drug house and waiting for a shipment of heroin
11:21 to come in and I was withdrawing. I was not in a good
11:26 place. When the drugs came in, I slammed the same amount of drugs
11:30 I've always slammed and it was too much.
11:32 The drug was more potent than what I have been used to.
11:35 I immediately overdosed, because when you inject drugs
11:38 the overdose is pretty quick, so I immediately overdosed.
11:41 I started seizing, I lost bowel and bladder control.
11:45 I started throwing up and the other addicts in the room
11:47 were trying to resuscitate me.
11:50 And this is really important, I'm sorry if it grosses
11:53 someone out, but they were trying to resuscitate me and
11:56 what God showed me in this prayer is what that looked
11:58 like at the time.
12:00 I don't know how He does that but that's what I felt like
12:02 He was showing me.
12:03 It was ridiculous watching other addicts trying to breathe
12:07 for you and that stuff.
12:09 As I threw up they were trying to clear my mouth of the
12:12 vomit and still breathe for me and it was disgusting.
12:14 I remembered that when I first got into praying I felt
12:18 horrible, I felt like I wasn't worth anything, that
12:21 I wasn't good enough, I wasn't eating right and I didn't
12:23 fit in this group of normal people.
12:26 I didn't fit in the church and I couldn't sit anywhere
12:29 else and I was panicking and now He is showing me this
12:32 vision that was absolutely disgusting.
12:34 In the vision I felt like I was there looking at it,
12:37 I could smell and feel what it felt like to be in that place.
12:41 They took me to the shower and were trying to put ice all
12:43 over me to revive me and those things.
12:46 All of a sudden I just felt like crying God,
12:49 what are You doing? This is not helping me feel better.
12:53 I remember that panic, that I am not feeling better and
12:56 He said something that changed my life forever, for ever.
13:00 He said to me really clearly through the Holy Spirit,
13:03 not a voice but through the Holy Spirit, Cheri I loved
13:06 you as much when you were laying on the floor of a drug
13:10 house, in your own feces as I do right now when you are
13:13 trying to be a Christian.
13:14 Do not make this a behavioral thing, I am your Father.
13:17 I love you, I loved you since the day you were born, even
13:21 in the womb I loved you and please don't mistaken that.
13:25 Do I not want you to not hurt yourself? Do I want you not
13:28 to damage yourself by this sin you bring in your life?
13:32 Yes, but that doesn't change my love for you.
13:34 Do I what you to eat right? Yes because it helps you
13:37 to reestablish your neural chemistry so you depressions
13:39 will lift and all that stuff.
13:41 Do I want you to drink water? Yeah and be out in the sun
13:43 and take good breaths and stuff that is all part of
13:47 recovery, yes that is it but don't mistaken that for My
13:50 love for you, I am your Father.
13:53 I absolutely adore you and when you get that I can bring
13:56 changes into your life that the very desires that you have,
13:59 the very things that are so second nature to you right now,
14:03 the manipulation and all that stuff you will so start to
14:07 begin to hate the things that you love now.
14:09 Love the things that you hate now that I am God and bring
14:12 Holiness into your life where you will long for that and
14:16 desire that, and that is all scriptural.
14:18 As I learned that, God how cool is He?
14:21 So stay tuned, we are going to meet some of the guests here
14:25 and I want you to listen to the stories of
14:27 Ron and Celeste Lee as we interviewed them as how God has
14:31 changed their lives and brought that into their life and
14:35 made Himself more real to them.
14:41 We want to introduce you to a beautiful book
14:44 Called 'Steps To Christ'.
14:46 Each program in this series is based on a different chapter
14:49 showing you how to become a Christian and
14:51 gain victory over your addictions.
14:53 'Steps To Christ' is our gift to you free of charge.
14:56 Just call us at:
15:22 Welcome back to Celebrating Life In Recovery, on this
15:25 segment I would like introduce you to Ron and Celeste Lee
15:27 and thank you so much for coming on the show.
15:31 You know that I love you guys. - we love you too.
15:35 Good, good, the first time I met Ron, and I have to tell
15:38 you this, I thought it was absolutely hilarious.
15:41 I am in Nebraska, we're doing I think a woman's retreat or
15:45 something but the men decided that they had to come.
15:47 So everybody comes and we had a great time.
15:52 As I met Ron, I instantly feel I bonded with you and have since
15:58 the day we met, and I said to Ron on the way out is that
16:01 you would be amazing in prison ministries.
16:05 So I'm wondering I know he's the elder of the church and
16:08 saying have you done prison ministries and do you remember
16:11 what you said to me?
16:12 I made some comment like I can't go there because of what
16:17 I would do? I'm like what? What would you do?
16:20 I think I responded to you I would smack somebody.
16:24 Yeah you said that, I'd probably smack somebody in the
16:28 face, Na-na-na-na and I started to laugh because that was
16:33 the funniest answer I had ever heard.
16:35 So I said do have some anger issues? And I think Celeste
16:40 just about fell off the chair, anger issues let me tell
16:44 you. It was that encounter, when we first met, and there
16:49 is not much more said about that.
16:50 A little while later I get a call from Celeste and go
16:56 over the call.
16:58 I think if this is the call you are referring to I was
17:02 ready to move out, I was done. - packing your bags.
17:05 I was like Cheri I can't handle this, I have been here
17:08 enough and I am not dealing with this anymore,
17:10 I'm out of here.
17:12 And what she was telling me is you don't understand,
17:14 this guy has a rage problem and you are right on, and all this
17:18 kind of stuff on the phone and I finally said to her, which
17:23 I think was amazing, is that if God could change it would
17:28 you stay? And there was silence.
17:31 Because at that time I didn't really think God could,
17:33 because I have been praying that for ever.
17:36 I was really at the decision point of can
17:39 I even still believe in God?
17:41 Because nothing is happening here, why should I still
17:44 believe in Him when nothing is happening?
17:47 I had really sat down and thought some of that through.
17:50 There was a point in the conversation I thought was
17:54 incredible when you are honestly saying even if it
17:58 changes right now I don't think I can step back in.
18:02 I just think I am so done, and at that point the only
18:06 thing I could think of is that both of you need
18:09 to be at my house.
18:11 Come over to the house, and its funny Ron because you
18:15 didn't think you would come.
18:17 No she didn't, she basically put me in a crisis and said
18:22 we have got to go today, this was a Wednesday afternoon.
18:26 She said we got to go today, and I said I've got a
18:28 contract that is signed and I have to be on the job Monday.
18:31 You're the boss, - yeah on Fridays.
18:35 So she said well I'll drive all Sunday to make sure
18:39 you get home, either we go or I'm gone.
18:41 I realized at that moment it was way past serious and
18:45 it was time, I knew I needed help but didn't
18:48 know what to do.
18:49 So we're going to step into this situation and its the most
18:54 amazing thing watching God, I love watching God.
18:56 I love the way He comes into our lives when it is hopeless.
18:59 When we absolutely don't think He can do anything and maybe
19:02 don't even want Him to do anything.
19:04 I don't even know if I believe in You anymore and
19:06 watching God step in.
19:08 Before we get started with your testimony, because they are
19:14 my favorite, my favorite, is I want to take you to John 3:8
19:20 In John 3:8 it talks about where Christ says "the wind blows
19:24 "wherever it wishes, you can hear the sound it makes but you"
19:29 "do not know where it comes from or where it's going.
19:31 "It's like that way with everyone born of the Spirit."
19:34 I never really got that until somebody said in a military
19:38 term, and Ron will appreciate this, is during some of the
19:42 major wars the Marines would come and they would land on
19:46 an island that was occupied by the enemy.
19:48 If they could get a hold on that island it was just
19:53 a matter of time before they could take back the territory,
19:57 take back the land.
19:59 I really believe in this God said just give Me a hold,
20:03 just raise your hand and get in the car and drive there
20:06 and God will wow you with what He does.
20:10 So you show up at my house and I'm only going to set up the
20:12 story and let them take it over.
20:14 You show up at my house, and I look at both of them and
20:18 they are both furious. They are both furious.
20:22 And they are furious at each other, their furious about
20:26 the trip and I can't even imagine being in the place you
20:30 are in and driving all the way with each other in a car.
20:35 And so you get to the house and I remember hearing first
20:39 of all your testimony Ron, and I want you to just talk
20:43 about where you come from the time before you were sent
20:47 to Vietnam, so start from childhood.
20:50 As far as I can remember, ever since I was raised in a
20:56 quote unquote Adventist home, my father was very abusive.
21:01 We were beat and my mother was very abusive verbally
21:05 mostly but also physically.
21:06 So that's set up a lot of anger and rebellion and I was
21:09 told I wasn't going to make it because I wasn't a doctors
21:13 kid and told later in my life I would make it because
21:16 I didn't go to college.
21:17 We were forced into you will read your Bible or your going
21:22 to hell, you will do this and all we did until I was arrested
21:26 down the road was read the Bible and do chores
21:28 no fun, no play, no love.
21:30 A lot of abuse, a lot of hatred, a lot of anger.
21:34 I developed a love of anger and hatred and pretty soon
21:38 I started hating everybody, teachers and parents, and cops
21:43 teachers and brother and it just escalated.
21:47 When someone talks about that much hatred that much anger in a
21:51 child it is unbelievable, we talked about it a little earlier
21:55 about the demoniac and his life was so out of control that
21:58 almost a demonic possession because of the anger.
22:02 I really believe that Satan just stays on you, just
22:05 stays on you, and when you talked about being arrested
22:08 what was that about?
22:10 I got involved in, we were very poor, and I got involved
22:15 with another friend in a homicide which involved a cowboy
22:21 and we made it and he didn't.
22:23 So I'm going to go there, he picked you up and you guys
22:28 decided to rob him or whatever and beat him up and
22:31 he ends up dying. And you were how old?
22:35 I was 17 getting ready to turn 18 so they were going to
22:40 try me as an adult and that led to some lock up time.
22:44 Not long because they eventually came down and offered me
22:48 military service, which they don't do anymore, military
22:51 service in exchange for dropping the felony for the rest
22:55 of your life. - and what year was that?
22:56 That was 1967. - so the military service was Vietnam?
23:00 And they sent me to Vietnam which now they taught me how
23:04 to kill a right way, if there's a right way and we know
23:08 there's not and that created more anger,
23:10 more frustration, and a hard heart.
23:13 You know what I think about that kind of thing and you
23:17 were at my house in first telling me this story, my heart
23:21 just broke for you because I picture this angry child now
23:25 in the service and being taught to kill.
23:27 Now drugs coming in and drinking coming in and all that
23:29 kind of thing being mixed in with that.
23:33 I felt at that point you must have been so lost in your
23:37 anger. - I was lost in my anger and the smallest little
23:41 thing would set me off.
23:43 I think I probably had the most article 15's of
23:46 anybody in my company. - what's an article 15?
23:48 It's a military discipline action where you forfeit your
23:53 pay, loss of rank and extra duty and pretty soon I think
23:57 when I was in a war situation making the five level of
24:02 rank that I had pay and overseas duty pay and combat duty
24:07 pay, I was only making $200 and something dollars,
24:10 $258 a month and so that lead into more drugs, dealing
24:14 and black-market situation. - to increase your income?
24:17 To increase my income so I could have more drugs and
24:19 more medication of covering up what you are actually doing
24:24 every day. - as you're telling me this story I was
24:28 paying attention to Celeste and your response to him.
24:32 And the response that I picked up on spiritually was see
24:37 how messed up he is Cheri? Do you know what I mean?
24:40 So I want you to tell a little bit because your
24:43 backgrounds are so different and I want you to tell
24:46 a little bit about your background and how you grew up
24:48 because it was different than his.
24:49 Yes I grew up in a Christian home, went to Christian
24:53 schools, was basically always a good girl and everything
24:57 had to look right, it was vitally important that the
25:01 presentation to the public, if you are having a problem
25:05 at home that was kept at home.
25:07 You never shared anything and everything always had to
25:09 look good to anybody else.
25:11 This sweet little girl ended up with him.
25:16 We are not going to get into all the years in between that
25:19 but I want to go there right now, just imagine out of
25:23 Vietnam in a few years have passed and you are still in
25:27 the middle of your anger and you meet this Adventist girl
25:30 and decide to get married.
25:33 Actually we met at a place I went to work for, I took a break
25:37 from the stucco trade and went to work for Loma Linda farms.
25:41 Celeste came to that area just for the summer with her
25:46 fiancé and she needed a job and we hired her at the fruit
25:50 stand to sell vegetables and produce and hay that we were
25:54 producing to pay taxes on the property.
25:57 One day I told her during lunch you would make somebody
26:00 a good wife someday. - never realizing it would be you.
26:04 Never realizing yes, then one day she kind of got things
26:07 going at the time clock, it was time to check out and it
26:10 was me and someone else there and she gave me a kiss.
26:12 That was like do you know what you are doing?
26:17 And so we broke the other guys heart eventually.
26:22 That was tough but that was love.
26:24 I had been in a situation where it was basically
26:28 infatuation and everybody in at school wanted this
26:31 particular girl and I ended up with her two kids later
26:34 and boom it was over five years before and this was kind
26:39 of a catalyst thing. - right and you were, and at that
26:42 point you had fallen in love and you hadn't seen any of
26:45 his anger at that point? - not that much, no.
26:50 So I want to hear what your take was on him.
26:55 Was he kind and sweet, because all we see is that when I
27:00 met him he wasn't angry at all, I didn't see any of that.
27:04 No, I wouldn't say that I was, I had always been fascinated
27:09 by somebody on the other side of the fence.
27:12 - he was the bad boy. - he was a bad boy and so I love
27:16 the bad boy and I do have to tell you that after we had
27:19 been together awhile and the first time he yelled at me,
27:23 it was incredible because my father had never raised his
27:27 voice at me in my entire life.
27:29 So it was like an experience I didn't even know what to do.
27:35 I mean it was totally unreal.
27:37 Okay so Ron did your anger, how did your anger look after you
27:43 guys started to get together in a relationship and all
27:47 that stuff? You are still having outbursts of anger?
27:50 I mean how did that look?
27:52 How did it look? - yeah! - probably not good.
27:58 That was a dumb question, it was I'm sorry.
28:00 I was still doing drugs and I was still not dealing with
28:04 some anger from the father issue and from Vietnam.
28:08 In fact I would do things like being in public and go right
28:12 up to an Oriental and had no bones about pulling a fork off
28:16 the table and slamming it, that was called an assault on
28:20 America and I knew that wasn't cool but I did know how to
28:23 deal with that type of hatred I had accumulated.
28:28 You know I want to make that clear because I think it is
28:31 incredible that you said the outbursts of anger's were so
28:34 out there, as far as even what anybody would think.
28:39 And you came from a home that everything had to look right.
28:42 Here is this guy doing things where you think that's not
28:45 right, you don't do that.
28:47 So I still looked good that was really important, because
28:51 I still looked good and he looked really bad.
28:53 It didn't matter what it was about, I mean one short
28:56 incident, I have a 57 Chevy pickup that I've restored.
29:00 It's a nice vehicle, a collectors item but I would slam
29:03 the windshield and break it, or bust the fender up if it
29:07 didn't run just right when I was tuning it up.
29:09 Then you have to go get another windshield and go get
29:13 another fender. - So far it has not come out on your wife
29:16 and employees and I remember you one time talking about
29:20 your employees and you ranted for a long time.
29:23 These are idiots, I'm like all of them so it came out
29:30 everywhere and one of the things I want to get to Celeste
29:36 is that I realize in the time you were at the house,
29:39 and as you were talking I realized how damaged you were
29:42 Ron, as far as your rage and how early it started.
29:45 How stuck you were in that but I also saw that wasn't in
29:49 your heart, which was really interesting to me that it was
29:53 not your heart and I felt that strong.
29:55 I all of a sudden realized Celeste, that you were so
29:59 codependent - and I was so angry at you.
30:03 Because this whole time I came to you, okay fix him.
30:07 And you were looking at him going I just feel so bad for
30:11 you, that must be terrible.
30:13 I'm going what! - and I turned around at one point to
30:16 Celeste and said, and the people watching I want you to
30:20 hear this, is Celeste I think because of your underlying
30:24 issues that you are at least 50% of the problem in this
30:27 relationship, maybe even 60%.
30:30 I thought she was going to cut my throat.
30:33 She was going to say you know what, are you crazy he is
30:38 so angry and I've tolerated so much for so many years,
30:43 what are you talking about?
30:45 Your reaction to that, explain a little bit about.
30:49 I was angry, I was furious - you are going to pack your
30:54 bags and leave my house.
30:55 Well I felt all my issues again which were rejection and
30:59 abandonment and all of that because here I came for help
31:02 and you are just rejecting me and abandoning me and
31:04 taking care of him, what's wrong?
31:08 I'm good, I'm a good girl, I did the right thing, I stayed.
31:12 Well not only I stayed but - I behaved, I tried to say
31:16 the right thing, do the right thing, look the right way
31:20 and all those things.
31:21 And you know what the reason I want to kind of get that
31:25 groundwork laid is that we spent some time together and
31:29 the only thing I can think of was you guys both want
31:32 really wanted to heal your relationship and that you
31:35 really needed to understand each other's issues,
31:38 where you came from.
31:39 Celeste I felt so sure if you can see any of this
31:44 underlying, I had to be perfect, be a good girl and take
31:48 care of everybody, and everybody has to behave, if
31:50 you can see some of that and surrender it to God
31:52 you could love Him in a way that would bring
31:55 life to the relationship.
31:57 So you guys leave to go take care of that and I would
32:01 like for you to tell your story, and both of you tell
32:05 your story about what God did from the time He stepped
32:10 in to restore your marriage.
32:12 Well the two tapes that you showed us there By Binding of
32:16 the Wounds Seminar interested us in going to see more to
32:21 get more help and get more tools.
32:24 So we went to Ron and Nancy Rockies seminar
32:27 - and before for people that don't know I showed them
32:30 some tapes about a marriage seminar.
32:31 The marriage seminar I showed them were some friends of mine
32:34 that are amazing, so they decided to actually go for a
32:38 week end - right? And I think it was the Sunday,
32:41 it's a two day thing when you first start it, if you go to
32:44 the Binding Wounds Seminar in person, it's a two day thing.
32:47 Sunday at noon we broke for lunch and I came out of there
32:51 and I had just explained loudly, these tennis shoes I am
32:55 wearing feel like air Jordan's times 10. I can do this.
32:59 I found this humongous weight just leave me and of course
33:04 that is just the beginning so now what do I do?
33:06 Let me interrupt because what is amazing to me about who
33:10 you chose to go see is that he had a tremendous rage
33:15 disorder, a tremendous rage disorder, this guy is a
33:19 marriage seminar is so enraged that he would take the
33:23 phone out of his house, put a pay phone in his house and
33:27 give his wife a quarter so she could make one call the
33:31 whole time he was at work. She had to walk a half a mile,
33:35 a quarter of a mile to get to a neighbor's house
33:37 and use the phone.
33:38 He would if dinner was ready at a certain time he would
33:41 throw fits and throw things, put holes in walls, scream,
33:44 yell, and leave and go to a restaurant if dinner
33:47 was five minutes late.
33:48 He said that he was on the way to the table but
33:51 not on the table he would be in enraged. So he really
33:54 knew what you were talking about what that kind of rage.
33:57 So God sent you into a place where you could
34:01 so relate to someone.
34:02 Well when we went back to that same seminar the second
34:05 time, there were many, many people in the audience and he
34:08 sees me sitting there with Celeste again and he says what
34:11 are you doing here? Is that you, Ron can I say something
34:14 about you in front of all these people?
34:16 I said sure I'd probably talked to them.
34:18 He said when you walked in here the first time he looked at
34:21 his wife and said look at this guy he just reeks with rage.
34:24 He won't last half an hour, he'll be out of here talking
34:27 trash all way up to the, he said look you are back again.
34:31 I now look at you and see radiance, your nickname was rage
34:35 and our talk that we go out and now do we call it
34:39 - from Rage to Radiance. And now we're good friends,
34:42 we've gone to Phoenix to visit and stay with them and
34:44 we love them to death.
34:47 Okay so God really brought you into a place where you
34:50 could see your issues, and we talked about change,
34:53 how God does that I don't even know.
34:56 He sets us exactly in the place we need to be with
34:59 exactly the people we need to be with and the Holy Spirit
35:02 starts moving in, you don't even see it, you just see a
35:05 change in the person's face, changing their anger and
35:10 the way they response to all those things.
35:11 And we're going to back to that.
35:12 What about your stuff Celeste that you have issues that
35:15 were different than Ron's, and when I said yours was
35:18 going to be harder or that yours was more of a problem
35:21 is because Ron's were so apparent.
35:23 If something has a broken arm is easy to see what to do
35:25 with that, if someone has rage and that kind of stuff,
35:29 but yours was all silent, it was all I am doing the right
35:32 thing. So what we're sure recovery like?
35:35 What did God do with yours?
35:36 It was really slow, first of all because it was like Ron
35:39 saw everything immediately because it was on the outside.
35:42 Mine was more like an onion peeling, just a little bit
35:45 at a time, a little bit at a time learning that.
35:47 I did hide everything, I did shut down, I was co-dependent
35:52 and all those things, but just very, very slowly because
35:57 I had been programmed for so long to not see any of that.
36:02 So when you talk about co-dependent
36:04 what do you mean by that?
36:05 It's because I'm thinking when I, a lot of people watching
36:10 are going to have codependency tendencies or
36:13 caretakers because they want things to look good and
36:15 those kind of things.
36:16 Yeah taking care of people, I always used to try take care
36:19 of Ron, if something was wrong in the business I would try
36:22 to fix it, I always made sure that we looked good even
36:26 though he was being a complete problem.
36:28 What ever, and it is all of those things and once I stepped
36:32 back from that and didn't own that it was my
36:35 responsibility to fix everything, he was perfectly
36:37 capable of doing it and did a much better job, but it's
36:40 just that we think we have take care of everything.
36:43 There will there were times when Celeste would call and
36:46 I would love these calls because she would call and just
36:49 the healing that was happening and the love that was coming
36:52 I back into the relationship between the two of them
36:55 as she realized, as you realized that I can't make him
36:59 better and I need to just relax about that and give that
37:03 responsibility to him.
37:04 As God was empowering you to actually change it was
37:07 amazing to me to watch you guys grow.
37:11 It was hard when you realized there was a lot of issues.
37:15 That I really did have a lot of issues. - yeah, yeah!
37:18 Yeah because I have been taught my whole life not to
37:22 look at those things not to see those.
37:23 A really good example is we were going to church one day,
37:27 and I was driving and he was over there talking to me.
37:31 This kind of Na-na-na-na kind of in a rage but he just
37:35 looked over and I thought I am so sick and tired of you
37:39 flapping your jaw and I slapped him.
37:41 I have never slapped a guy in my whole life and he just
37:45 turned around and ducked me.
37:47 And he has never raised a hand to me either and so I
37:50 pulled the car over, he took the keys and got out and
37:52 started walking down the road and someone picked him up.
37:55 I'm like whatever, somebody will be by that's going to
37:58 church and I'll get a ride with them, which I did. I went all
38:01 the way through Sabbath school, all the way through church,
38:03 Pot luck, singing band and never shed a tear.
38:06 Someone said while hi how are you and I am like fine.
38:09 Where's Ron? I'm not sure. I mean I wouldn't even
38:12 address what had happened that I had never even been hit
38:15 my life and now someone had hit me and I refuse to even
38:19 acknowledge that that had happened.
38:21 And what I think is amazing about a lot of folks in those
38:25 codependent relationships, somebody is an obvious problem.
38:29 Like I learned that somebody with an eating disorder could
38:33 have 35 codependent people working around them that
38:36 are running and trying to make them better.
38:38 It's like you have somebody that is actively acting out
38:41 and you have somebody quietly trying to fix it, but with
38:45 desperation and anxiety, with everything that comes with
38:49 it, and they are saying is they are at a point complete
38:53 denial saying what it is not supposed to be and physical
38:57 violence was no exception to that.
39:00 I think it is important to note here that the comment
39:04 that sparked me in the wrong direction and I accept full
39:08 responsibility for going that wrong direction was when she
39:12 said to me I don't have a problem, you do.
39:15 I could see that it was a 2 Way Street here and that was
39:19 more than I can handle and that doesn't make an excuse.
39:23 But what's amazing to me, what is interesting is when God
39:28 brings in change, is that everyone at the table, everyone
39:33 in the relationship God wants to heal and work with.
39:36 All of us and if we could get that, if we could get that
39:40 God has an opportunity to say do not trust yourself.
39:44 There is a place in the Bible where it says lean not to
39:48 your own understanding because you do not get the full
39:51 picture, you have to trust Me and every single thing.
39:53 You have to bring every single thing to Me in prayer.
39:56 And for people in recovery, any of us in recovery.
39:59 I'm speaking to any addict watching right now too, don't
40:03 trust yourself because you have years and years
40:07 dysfunctional relationships and your family dynamics,
40:12 I heard a saying one time as if a number of children or a family
40:17 was living by a polluted factory that polluted the air.
40:22 It actually brought in cancer or carcinogens or whatever
40:26 and the kids ended up being sick it would be real clear
40:30 that the factory was causing that.
40:33 But in some homes the pollution is language, verbal or
40:37 emotional pollution and the kids from early on learn a
40:41 language, and the language is so well learned.
40:44 You have learned a language as you were growing up that
40:48 caused you to want to fix everything, to look good all the
40:51 time, and be right and want him to be right.
40:53 Not so much for his own sake, but because this is what
40:57 couples should look like.
40:58 And this is how you are supposed to behave.
41:00 So now I think we have a real good picture that we are a mess
41:05 aye, we have a picture, and I watched God bring the Holy
41:11 Spirit into your relationship and do some changes.
41:14 So Ron first of all I want to ask you, one time we were
41:19 sitting together and I saw that you were still struggling.
41:23 Ron are you leaning on, can I teach you a little bit about
41:26 what I found out about the Holy Spirit that God says I
41:30 really want to give you a baptism of the Holy Spirit so
41:34 that you could not have to fight so much this struggle.
41:37 And you prayed for that God would bring the Holy Spirit
41:40 into your life, did that make you change for you?
41:45 It made a tremendous change. At first I was wondering
41:50 what, for what? But when you baptized us with the Holy
41:54 Spirit, ever since that time the desire has changed.
41:59 The constant awareness that Jesus loves me and wants me to
42:03 share that with others, and wants me to react properly to
42:08 no matter what the situation that comes up.
42:10 No matter what. I've seen some people now that have come
42:14 back to me later that witnessed situations that said in your
42:18 old self you would have climbed over the counter to that.
42:22 - and grabbed him by the throat. - just when I had been
42:25 3 and 1/2 hours away called and said to you that material
42:28 there, they said yes I'm sitting here looking at it and
42:34 drive there and it is not there and I went oh, okay.
42:40 So when will it be in? And one of my brother in laws was
42:44 sitting there watching that happen and he was blown away.
42:48 Later on he told me about it said I expected the cops
42:51 to be there in a couple minutes, and I said well was
42:55 it really worth it?
42:56 You go through these feelings and you cannot cry over
42:59 spilled milk, you got to go for it today, and if you make
43:02 a mistake you brush yourself off and keep going and say
43:05 Jesus just help me the next time to do it the right way.
43:08 The new highs, as ex-druggies of these we know that word,
43:11 the new high is doing it right.
43:13 - having God give you the ability to do it right
43:17 yeah it's not me, it's not me, I said that this morning
43:20 at the end of that show I give all the credit Jesus Christ
43:24 because I have a thing on my dresser that used to be on
43:28 our desk and it says I can do all things, but it doesn't
43:32 stop there. Through Him who strengthens me.
43:36 Now I have many incidents where that moment of impact or
43:41 the temptation is there again, whatever that is someone
43:45 has shared with me thank Him for the victory before
43:48 you even get it, when you do that it sends your mind to
43:52 Jesus to have victory and then that problem seems to just
43:55 vanish, not every time but it's a daily.
44:00 You don't do right every time but what is really nice
44:03 about as God moves us into a place where I can start turning
44:06 it over to Him and this is that I do it right more
44:08 than I used to. - right she called me one time when I
44:11 was on the way to work.
44:12 Three employees were not going to show and I needed them
44:15 there, her and I were struggling with an issue and I had
44:18 a lady in court for a year and a half that wouldn't pay
44:21 and eventually had to, so things were falling down again.
44:24 She calls and says what are you doing and I said singing.
44:27 She said what are you singing, I said I'm singing Just
44:30 When I Need Him Most, to choose to do things like that
44:33 sends your mine into a direction that is more
44:37 healing, more positive.
44:40 I was very much a negative person, and I had watched what
44:43 I done to my wife and it hurt.
44:46 But God is good and He rebuilds.
44:49 - He's reconciling both you to Him and each other.
44:52 Which is amazing
44:54 - and I would tell the world that I love this lady.
44:56 - that's incredible so I'm going to find out if there is
45:00 anybody that has any questions, I knew Christy you wanted
45:04 to ask Ron or Celeste a question, go ahead.
45:08 This is for Celeste, when Cheri had told you that you
45:15 were co-dependent and God really showing you in revealing
45:23 that to you, how exactly did you take that?
45:26 How exactly did you?
45:27 Do you know even though it is hard for you to finish this
45:33 the first time I met Christy I would have to say we were
45:37 doing an intervention with your husband who was a meth
45:41 addict, and talking with him and realizing that you were
45:46 not an addict and you have not acted out.
45:49 She was a nice girl, do you know what I mean?
45:52 Married to this guy that was out of control, and you are
45:54 pregnant or just had a child?
45:56 - yes I had just had my son and
45:59 he was like two weeks old when I found out my husband
46:01 was doing meth, so that was quite a shock.
46:04 So what was interesting to me was that even as we were
46:07 dealing with this one to one with her husband, I realize
46:11 that Christy you were enabling a lot of his behavior and
46:15 had to get some strength under you so that your family
46:19 wasn't destroyed, so how did you respond?
46:22 Well at first like Celeste, I don't think I told to but I
46:29 was mad, this guy he is a messed up one and I am a new
46:35 mom, a new bride and you go through a lot of emotions and
46:41 so that was new and then you find out your husband is
46:47 doing meth, I mean that is a shock.
46:49 You're like wait a minute, we came here to fix him and
46:54 now we are talking about me. It was like I don't get this.
47:00 But she was right, when I went home we didn't talk and I just
47:06 thought Cheri is right, I was so used to helping Terri
47:14 and being that crutch.
47:17 I would beg you please Terri get help because otherwise
47:23 you are going to destroy yourself, you're going to
47:26 destroy this family, you're going to lose your job,
47:28 we are going to be broke.
47:30 And at that time I quit my job.
47:33 - and this is unsafe for my children.
47:38 - so I begged and pleaded and please get help.
47:43 Because I have no background in drugs, I don't know how
47:51 this game works, so once he told me Chris you are very
47:58 much codependent - and so let me ask Celeste when
48:02 she is talking about her reaction to being codependent
48:07 and some of those things.
48:08 How did that strengthen you? How did that strengthen
48:11 your relationship with God? To understand that maybe
48:14 I have some issues that I could look at, maybe it is
48:18 not so out of control.
48:19 First of all I have to say it, it took a really long time.
48:22 Like a year and a half or something. It did take a long
48:26 time before I could see those things clearly because I had
48:30 lived in denial and my family dynamics had been everything
48:34 was okay for so long that I couldn't even see or
48:37 understand what that was.
48:39 As far as me relating it to God, I think I don't have to
48:45 fix everything now, like you say God is my Father,
48:48 He takes care of things and of one of the things that I have
48:53 learned to really live by is the only person
48:55 I can change is myself.
48:57 In the last couple months there has been a time or two
49:01 when Ron and I had a, I will just say issue, it wasn't
49:04 a fight, it wasn't anything like that
49:06 and I was really frustrated.
49:08 I came back to, I can only change myself and so I went
49:13 to my knees and say God what do you want me
49:16 to do different here. - Amen
49:19 What do you want me to change -
49:20 that is the most incredible thing is that
49:22 instead of saying I need to You change him, I need You to
49:26 fix him or what ever is to be able to come back and say
49:28 what is it that I'm doing and what can I look like at?
49:31 To me when you first said that to me on the phone I wanted to
49:34 reach over and kiss you on the face.
49:36 What an incredible step in growth.
49:38 And you know what, before I had finished praying he was
49:41 calling me back apologizing for what he just didn't
49:45 understand at all and I was like oh this is cool.
49:48 But it is really hard to let go, when you have your whole
49:53 life taken care of making the problem right and you don't
49:57 think of yourself as controlling you are only trying to help.
50:00 Controlling is someone who just, but you are only trying
50:05 to help. - right. So to let go of that is hard.
50:10 - it's absolutely hard. And I have to say for as
50:14 we look at how God changes us in a relationship where
50:18 you are committed to Christ or healing or change or
50:23 recovery is to really say God what is it about me that
50:27 needs to be different? What is it about me that is adding
50:31 to this? I have to even say as I watched you guys go
50:35 through this process, and it did take you longer because
50:38 yours wasn't as an evident and it wasn't as obvious.
50:41 But when I started getting this with my own relationship
50:45 with Brad, I'm married to a non-Christian and he hadn't been
50:48 a Christian for years and I am doing evangelism and he's
50:51 not even a Christian and I used to pray all the time God
50:55 fix him, fix him it's time and finally God said, take a
50:59 breath, fix your self and I've realized that in my saying
51:04 fix him I was not showing not being able to love or respect
51:09 him in a way that would allow the Holy Spirit
51:10 to stand him up.
51:12 So I started looking at myself and he was fixed within
51:15 like six months and not fixed where he doesn't have issues,
51:19 fixed where he is moving close to God and seeing that and is
51:23 responding to the Holy Spirit and so to be I think on this
51:27 show on change and recovery is to be able to look at not
51:31 only Ron the person with the obvious issues that is
51:34 exploding all over the place, but those around us that are
51:39 maybe quietly enabling and still feeling as lost.
51:44 But just quieter and God says if you give Me the
51:48 opportunity I will come in and bring peace.
51:52 There was another question out here, was that Pam were you
51:57 going to ask a question?
51:58 Yes I wanted to ask Ron is your anger completely gone,
52:02 or is it something you've learned to manage?
52:05 I think it would be more like something God has helped me
52:09 to learn to manage.
52:11 I had a little incident where one day it felt so different
52:15 not to explode, but that was my type of current drug so to
52:18 speak, so I had to explode I thought so I went up to the
52:22 closet and closed the door and let it rip.
52:25 I came outside and said now, the Holy Spirit has really
52:30 put on my heart the true meaning of love and there's two
52:35 feelings there, love and hate.
52:37 Love is so much stronger and I am making choices to do
52:41 different things like when I was furious one day at the
52:44 job I went over to the sand pile and I wanted to take
52:48 the shovel, that was my humanity.
52:50 Jesus said to me Ron, He talked with His voice and said
52:53 what does it really matter here that I make the dollar
52:55 that I showed and you should help me do that or that I
52:58 show you some different?
52:59 So I want to show you some different, and I start to tell
53:02 them how much I cared about what they did was good.
53:05 You know I like what you say Ron is set to actually hear
53:09 the Holy Spirit saying to you no Ron stop, take a breath
53:12 and this is what I want you to say.
53:14 What is really amazing to me is when you say that you feel
53:18 great. - being in tune with what that emotion has done
53:22 and saying I do not want to do that to my wife or other
53:26 people around me anymore.
53:28 I choose, and sometimes that is biting down and choosing
53:33 to not be negative and to put that energy into something
53:38 positive, for instance okay I'll go ahead and buckle down
53:42 a little harder on this project here because even though
53:47 these humans are not producing we need to get to a
53:50 certain point here and so I will show them an example
53:54 and let it be a positive example.
53:56 No it's not totally gone, there are still times there and
53:59 I'm still seeing some of it.
54:00 I will take a deep breath and come back in the house and
54:03 say we have to work this out babe right now.
54:06 We have to get this fixed. - I want to say I love you guys.
54:10 Thank you so much for joining us and we have to go now.
54:14 This has been amazing and I love to watch the changes
54:17 that God has made in your life. Absolutely amazing.
54:26 Amazing stories of real people in real situations discussing
54:30 issues that really matter.
54:32 A complete first season of Celebrating Life In Recover is
54:35 now available on DVD and can be ordered by calling 3ABN
54:38 or online at 3ABN.org hosted by Cheri Peters.
54:42 This season follows principles of the book
54:45 'Steps to Christ'.
54:46 See for yourself how God changed the lives of the
54:48 convicted and the accused and victims of terrible crimes.
54:51 You won't want to miss a moment
54:53 of these powerful interviews.
54:58 I've heard a lot of people say in their recovery, I know that
55:01 God loves me, I know that I'm forgiven but I also know
55:04 that I am a mess and I know that I stand up and fall down
55:08 and do the very things I don't want to do.
55:10 Paul says in the Bible I don't want to do this than I do
55:13 it, the things I want to do I don't do and he just breaks
55:17 down and cries oh wretched man that I am who's going to
55:21 save me from this body of death.
55:23 I want to say to anybody with those feelings is Jesus will.
55:26 He so knows us, I don't care if you stand up and fall a
55:30 hundred times, if you have to come weeping at His feet
55:34 just saying I'm asking you again to please change me.
55:37 Please forgive me, please teach me what it feels like to
55:41 respond to the situation in a calm way and not in anger.
55:45 Or like Celeste was talking about the issues of wanting
55:49 to be perfect and control the situation and
55:52 take care for everybody.
55:54 Teach me to allow You to take care of me and I think that
55:57 God says that it's going to take awhile because you are
56:00 so in a habit of doing something in anger.
56:03 You are so much in a habit of responding in a certain
56:06 way that I'm going to have to allow you to feel what it
56:10 feels like for the Holy Spirit to almost respond for you.
56:13 As I asked for the Holy Spirit in the situation where
56:17 He pours into me His Holy Spirit, I can feel that peace
56:21 and respond to that situation and everything in me says you
56:26 know, I like that, I like how that feels, I like how the
56:31 response is that people are actually getting healed
56:34 rather than running from Me in anger.
56:36 God says I will teach you, the very desires you have right
56:41 now will change those.
56:42 You will fall in love with things you don't like right now
56:45 and you will hate the things that you like.
56:47 As God changes you, no one will see the change start but
56:51 they see it in your reactions and they see it in your
56:55 face and they see it in your family and they see it around
56:57 the dinner table and they see it at church.
56:59 You have so much to give and the Holy Spirit is so ready to
57:05 bring in those changes that you will be surprised at
57:09 yourself, I don't care if you have been strung out your
57:13 whole life, I don't care if you've been depressed your
57:16 whole life give the Holy Spirit a chance and the Holy
57:19 Spirit will come into the situation and teach you what it
57:23 feels like to stand holy in the presence of a holy God.
57:26 Full of joy, full of hope and with my background,
57:30 I'm telling you, I absolutely love life.
57:33 I absolutely love the fact that I can step into a situation
57:39 and respond appropriately, most the time.
57:43 I trust God with that and the things I struggle with
57:47 I know that it is just a matter of time before He unfolds
57:51 that in front of me and allows me in a social situation
57:55 or any kind of situation to know exactly what is good
57:59 and what is not.
58:01 See you next time in Celebrating Life In Recovery