Participants: Joy Swift, Cheri Peters
Series Code: CLR
Program Code: CLR000006
00:10 Welcome to Celebrating Life In Recovery,
00:12 I'm Cheri your host.
00:13 We are always hearing about the addict, what about the
00:16 people affected by their choices?
00:18 Come join us, we are going to look at how our life
00:22 changes by the choices of other people.
00:52 We have absolutely an incredible show today.
00:54 I would like the topic, because when I first got into
00:56 recovery I always thought of the addict.
00:59 I thought the person that was strung out, or gambling
01:03 problem, or financial problems, or workaholic, somebody
01:07 cheating on their wife, or whatever.
01:08 I never thought about the fallout from them.
01:12 I never thought about the people who actually have to
01:15 pick up the pieces of their lives because of somebody
01:17 else's choice and so we are going to cover that today.
01:20 First of all I want to introduce you to the people at the café.
01:23 We have Maritza, I want to thank you for joining us.
01:25 Bonnie, Connie, Joy, I love you.
01:28 We have Pam and Marcia and I want to just say welcome.
01:33 Thank you for joining us, I can't even say it's going
01:38 to be a blast, but we are going to go through
01:40 a lot and learn a lot.
01:42 Joy we are going to be doing an interview with you
01:44 and I want to thank you so much for joining us.
01:48 You have blessed me, and a lot of people know that
01:51 I have come from... my family were addicts and that I was
01:55 homeless by the age of 13 and one found Christ at 23.
01:58 I was illiterate, I was so afraid, I didn't know how to
02:02 trust anybody, I didn't know anything.
02:06 I didn't know how I was going to stand, I didn't know
02:09 how I was going to figure out how to act normal or be
02:12 normal or whatever.
02:14 During my recovery, and it had taken years to step up
02:18 and learn how to allow Christ to come into my life and
02:22 change things, somebody gave me a book you wrote.
02:26 I read this book and it gave me so much courage that
02:29 I thought, if she can get through what she got through,
02:33 I can stand too.
02:34 So I want you to know that you have blessed me and helped
02:39 me to stand up and I am so honored to have you here
02:41 today and we will hear your whole story.
02:43 But I want to talk about a few things before we get there.
02:46 I have gone into a ministry and the ministry has been
02:50 absolutely amazing, I work with meth addicts, I work with
02:54 people in prison, I work with people who have eating
02:59 disorders, gambling addictions, shopaholics,
03:03 self mutilator's and I work with some intense folks.
03:06 It doesn't scare me to go into those lives because I know
03:14 that God is bigger. I know that God can come in and
03:18 restore somebody almost like that if that is His plan
03:22 for that person is.
03:24 I go in with so much hope that we have a God that says,
03:26 I don't care where you come from, not that I don't care
03:29 in a way He has no sympathy for us, but I don't care
03:32 because I want to restore you.
03:34 Our theme text for Celebrating Life In Recovery is
03:38 Isaiah 57:18 and it says, I know all your stuff,
03:41 I know all your stuff and I will heal you anyway,
03:44 I will led you, I will guide you, I will comfort you.
03:47 It even says I will comfort those who mourn.
03:50 I really believe for myself as the addict, that He is
03:53 talking about our families, our spouses, our parents,
03:56 those that we have so trashed God said He will even step
04:00 in and comfort them as I bring restoration to everyone.
04:04 So I am so sure in those arenas and I started to work
04:08 with this woman, her name is Chris.
04:10 I love her, I didn't realize when I first met Chris she
04:15 had a wound on her leg.
04:16 A horrible looking thing, and I said Chris what happened?
04:21 She looked at me so serious and said they think it's
04:25 cancer, I said man it looks like cancer.
04:29 Because it just looked like it was infected, it looked
04:32 like there was definitely something, like a process
04:36 that was going on and it was really intense.
04:38 So about a week or so into our relationship she tells me
04:42 the truth, she was in the garage with a gun and she was
04:47 going to blow her head off.
04:48 She heard her children calling out her name and
04:53 she thought, what am I doing?
04:55 She pulled the gun down and as she pulled it down she
04:58 had already pulled the trigger and shot
04:59 herself in the leg.
05:00 She was so embarrassed about the whole thing that she
05:04 said I'm not going to tell anybody so this has still
05:07 got fragments and it and its festering and infected.
05:11 What she is telling people now rather than fess up is
05:14 that I have cancer.
05:16 I talked with her and said what's up, what is going on?
05:20 The story that I heard from her absolutely was the
05:25 saddest thing I ever heard.
05:27 She told me that she had a son Lance Michael.
05:29 Lance Michael was the love of her life, she couldn't
05:33 have kids and it was really difficult for her because
05:36 she wanted a family, and her husband, wanted a family and
05:39 they tried everything, they even looked into adoption.
05:42 They finally adopted a child and right after the adoption,
05:45 you have heard this before how somebody ends up pregnant.
05:47 They had adopted this little girl and she gets pregnant
05:50 and she's the best mom, the best mom.
05:54 She loves this kid, she and the adopted little girl just had
06:00 the best time and got into all the activities kids get
06:03 into, she was a soccer mom.
06:05 This kid was just beautiful and just beautiful little boy.
06:09 He started growing up and got on ski teams and did well.
06:13 As he was in school they found out that he had a learning
06:17 disability, right, he was dyslexic.
06:19 So he had real difficulty reading and that was okay
06:23 when he was in elementary school.
06:24 When he got into high school he was no longer okay.
06:27 He gets into high school and starts getting teased and
06:31 can't keep up with the other kids and it was so shameful
06:35 to him that he starts to hang out with the kids that were
06:38 doing meth, drinking and all that kind of stuff.
06:42 When he did the meth, he said I felt like a King.
06:46 I felt like I was no longer ashamed, I was no longer
06:49 the kid that couldn't learn, I just felt like a king.
06:53 He got strung out really fast and his mom said it was
06:56 almost like one day, one day she came to pick him up,
06:59 what happened? What happened to you?
07:02 Nothing she could do would make a difference.
07:06 He was swearing and he had never sworn before.
07:11 He was disrespectful, it was horrible and she said
07:15 I couldn't figure anything out.
07:17 I kept thinking something is wrong.
07:19 She said I took him to counselors, I took him all over
07:21 the place and people said you are overreacting.
07:25 This is a normal process, kids have to rebel.
07:28 They have to walk away and this is his way of cutting
07:31 the umbilical cord and they made her feel stupid.
07:34 So she tried to let go and this kid then starts
07:37 running away from home.
07:38 She finds out by somebody who calls her up and said,
07:41 Chris can I ask you something?
07:43 What is Lance Michael's drug of choice?
07:47 She said what? What is his drug of choice do you think?
07:54 Tylenol? So she was ignorant and I mean that, I love her
08:02 and she had no idea what they were saying.
08:04 The person said no I think he is doing meth.
08:07 She said what? You think he is doing meth what is that?
08:10 What are you talking about?
08:11 She ends up going around to different people saying what is
08:16 meth, what do I look for, and what are the signs?
08:19 She finds a detective that is willing to sit down, from
08:22 narcotics, that was willing to sit down and talk with her.
08:25 This guy is amazing, he says I will give you some
08:28 information on what is meth.
08:30 The behavioral changes and what will happen with your
08:32 children, or anybody listening.
08:34 Their friends change, they're great start dropping,
08:37 they are more air trouble and will become more
08:39 disrespectful and start disconnecting from your family.
08:42 Those types of things and he starts talking to her
08:44 about those becoming behavioral changes and she is like,
08:47 how could I missed that? How could I have missed that?
08:50 So the detective said who is your son?
08:54 Lance Chatman she said. Lance is your son?
08:58 She said, oh do you know Lance?
09:01 She's thinking all how sweet is that, he knows my son.
09:06 He said yes, he is one of the biggest dealers in the area.
09:10 We have been watching him for a long time.
09:13 Now she is totally crushed, totally crushed.
09:16 She finds out that they had been watching him for a long
09:19 time and this guy slips and tells her where he is.
09:23 She goes and gets her nails done that day.
09:27 The beautician says do you know anybody that wants a gun?
09:32 She said nobody has ever asked that to me in my life.
09:36 In my life and she said no, that's crazy.
09:43 She is a soccer mom, Chris was going to be a nun in her
09:47 teens, she was in school, a convent or whatever.
09:51 It's nun-material, she was in something and she was
09:54 going to be a nun so she was like I don't even know
09:57 what you're talking about.
09:59 All of a sudden as she's getting her nails and hands done
10:02 she says you know how much is the gun anyway?
10:08 $25, she said $25,000 for a gun? No 25 bucks!
10:14 25 bucks? She said I want a gun and she buys this gun.
10:19 She said it looked like a little Barbie gun and she buys
10:23 it, takes it with her to the car and then she decides I'm
10:28 going to go find him.
10:29 I'm going to go find him, I'm going to find my son and
10:33 bring him home, she goes to the drug house with her gun
10:36 and calls this undercover narcotic drug officer and says,
10:40 I'm on my way to get Lance.
10:41 He says Chris don't I'm already there, and she gets out
10:46 of the car and walks up to the drug house.
10:50 She said she opened the door and it wasn't locked.
10:53 Like she couldn't believe it, if you're selling narcotics
10:56 wouldn't you lock the door? But it wasn't locked.
10:58 She opens the door and the guy who shot Lance up for
11:01 the first time, his name was Tony was sitting
11:04 there in a chair.
11:06 She pulled the gun up and said I want my son.
11:10 He said chill out Mama. She said I want my son.
11:15 And she went up and shoved the gun in his mouth and said,
11:19 I want my son, this is a soccer mom.
11:20 This is somebody that has never, ever even had violent
11:25 rages like that and she is in a rage.
11:28 She knows that if this guy says one more thing I will kill
11:31 you and all the sudden Lance comes out of the back room.
11:34 Mom, what are you doing? They end up leaving quickly.
11:38 She backs out thinking that she doesn't back out with
11:41 this gun she is going to be killed.
11:43 Backs out and gets into the car and Lance gets the gun
11:46 from her and found that she never even put the clip in.
11:48 She said what is a clip? Wow mom!
11:54 She's telling me the story and I'm thinking how crazy.
11:58 She gets Lance home, he is not only sick, he's withdrawn
12:00 and she puts him in treatments and tries to learn as
12:03 much as she can about addiction.
12:05 I beg anybody, any of you or anybody listening to me,
12:09 if you have a child that is strung out and you think is
12:14 acting out or using drugs or getting caught up in
12:16 an addiction, educate yourself.
12:18 Educate yourself, and if you don't know where to go,
12:21 call us, e-mail us and we will send you some information.
12:25 There was so much that she had to learn.
12:28 When Lance gets out of treatment she said she found out
12:31 that you need to occupy your time with something right
12:33 now, do you want to do a hobby?
12:35 He said yes. She said what would you like to do?
12:39 He said I would like to take glassblowing classes.
12:43 I don't know if anybody knows anything about meth or
12:46 crack, but you make your own pipes with glass.
12:50 So he wanted to make his own meth pipes and his mom
12:54 paid for the glassblowing classes that he took in order
12:58 to make these pipes.
12:59 She didn't even know that was what he was making.
13:03 As an addict I thought that is the stupidest story.
13:06 I said you didn't even know? She said I had no idea.
13:09 He would throw pipe away and I would pull it out and say
13:12 would say, Lance this looks cute, you can fix this up.
13:15 She had no idea, Lance comes home and he is sick and
13:18 he is having a horrible time.
13:20 She took him to the doctor and the doctor said,
13:22 you know what? We are going to have to give this boy
13:26 a new heart, he has so destroyed his heart.
13:29 He is 17 years old, and he is so sick that his heart is
13:33 so swollen, so damaged that there is no possibility of
13:37 fixing that and he ends up on a heart transplant list.
13:41 He ends up in the hospital with IVs and this
13:44 kid is taking the IVs out of his arms and is taking off
13:48 to use and then comes back to the hospital and
13:51 he is lost in his addiction.
13:53 His mother is begging them, don't take him off the
13:55 heart transplant list, don't take him off.
13:59 Please, I beg you in she is so afraid, afraid.
14:02 For the next couple of years she is in an out of
14:05 hospitals, in and out of treatment, trying to keep him
14:08 all the heart transplant list so that he is a candidate
14:13 for a new heart and he turns 21 and says mom I have to
14:17 have you take me off this list.
14:19 I cannot stop my addiction, and I can't accept someone
14:22 else's heart and do the same thing to someone else's
14:25 heart that I did to my heart, take me off.
14:27 He died shortly after that.
14:29 He died coming back to Christ, coming back to his mom and
14:35 begging her forgiveness, even telling her mom everything
14:41 you said was right, I am so sorry.
14:43 She said I'm holding this kid and he was 6'1" and lost
14:47 tons of pounds, down to 90 pounds.
14:50 Sick and dying and she said I'm holding him knowing
14:54 that I cannot do a thing, he is dying.
14:57 Coming back to Christ, coming back to his family.
14:59 She said when the coroner came in and zipped up the bag
15:04 they had to put him in a black bag.
15:06 She did not let him for two hours, you cannot put
15:09 him in that bag, this is my son.
15:12 He said you know it is a law, we can't transport bodies
15:15 without doing this.
15:17 So anyhow they put this, Lance Michael in the bag and
15:21 she said all I heard was the zipper to start
15:24 to zip around him and she started screaming.
15:26 My son is afraid of the dark, you cannot cover his face.
15:31 And she just cried, you cannot cover his face.
15:34 They finally said, you know it is against the law for us
15:39 to take him out of here without being covered.
15:41 She said, then you are not taking him, and it took them
15:44 hours to finally say to her okay we will take him out
15:49 not covered and it took her years to stand up again.
15:53 To stand up again and all the junk that is in her life
15:58 now, she said I thought just kill me.
16:01 This boy was someone I loved and now people talk about
16:07 him as if he is just an addict.
16:09 They want to forget him, now she's still set the table
16:13 for him, I can't forget him.
16:15 I don't want people to forget him at meals, or Christmas
16:18 or any of that and her whole life started to fall apart.
16:22 Her relationship with her husband definitely, her other
16:25 son at the time had cancer so she was dealing with that.
16:28 She was dealing with so many different things she said,
16:31 I won't be able to survive it.
16:32 I will not be able to survive this and this show
16:35 we are talking about those kind of things and what
16:38 happens when other people's choices come in like
16:42 a storm and play havoc on your entire life.
16:45 You think my world will ever look the same?
16:49 One of the things that I know about God is even in those
16:53 situations, God says, if you have faith I promise you
16:58 that I will come in.
17:00 I'm not going to come in and say it was all good, or that
17:03 it was okay that happened to Lance, it's not okay.
17:07 It was not okay but I will come in and give you
17:10 your life back again.
17:12 You'll stand again and enjoy.
17:13 And we are going to talk about that when we come back.
17:15 Joy you are going to come up and share your story.
17:17 I just want to say thank you for that and I want to tell
17:20 you to stay tuned because you will be so blessed by this.
17:24 I know right now it sounds a little sad but I promise
17:27 you that God turns things around, it's unbelievable.
17:31 So stay tuned! Celebrating Life In Recovery.
17:38 We want to introduce you to a beautiful book
17:41 called 'Steps To Christ'.
17:42 Each program in this series is based on a different
17:45 chapter showing you how to become a Christian and
17:47 gain victory over your addictions.
17:49 'Steps To Christ' is our gift to you free of charge.
17:53 Just call us at:
18:19 Welcome back, I want to talk about a Bible story that
18:23 I want to refer to Matthew 9:6, a paralytic, a guy that
18:27 was paralyzed and this guy was just a mess.
18:31 Christ came up to him and one of the things He said to him
18:35 do you believe that I can make you well?
18:38 Do you believe that I can heal you?
18:40 And he said yes, so Jesus says that He forgives him and
18:46 tells him to stand up and walk.
18:48 So for an addict, I really believe for Lance Michael
18:51 or myself an addict we really have to have faith and
18:54 accept the fact that God can heal us, forgive us,
18:58 and our sins are removed the Bible says as far as way
19:02 as the east to the west.
19:04 God doesn't even look at our sins anymore,
19:06 we are created new as it says in 2 Corinthians 5:17.
19:10 I'm new in Christ, I have a new mind and a new heart.
19:14 In the story of the demoniac and in his craziness filled
19:17 with a thousand demons God restores him to his right mind.
19:21 All that takes faith and I have to accept those gifts.
19:26 Right? But with Chris, Lance Michael's mother, Lance
19:29 got it, he accepted that and came back to Christ.
19:33 As he died she really had to stand up.
19:36 Lance before he died said, mom, tell people what killed
19:40 me, tell children and their parents what killed me.
19:43 And please don't let them get lost in drugs,
19:46 get lost in all that.
19:47 So Chris when she finally stood on her feet, when God
19:50 finally started to stand her on her feet she went out
19:53 and spoke to kids all over the world.
19:56 Internationally she has spoke families about drugs and
19:59 the dangers of not being educated in those things, there
20:03 there has been healing that is unbelievable, but I found
20:06 out Joy, I want to say first of all thank you for joining
20:09 me and I love you. - thank you!
20:12 I found out while watching her is that her healing
20:17 started when she was able to with the same faith, same
20:21 acceptance realize that God had to restore her.
20:26 So I want to first of all for you tell us about
20:31 who you are and where you came from and what started
20:36 this journey for you?
20:38 Well I grew up in the Kansas City area.
20:41 I grew up in a home that was not really a church going
20:44 home at all so I didn't know anything about God.
20:48 When I got married and started having kids and I was
20:52 really focused on my family.
20:54 My husband and I had five children ranging in age from
20:57 17 months to 17 years.
21:00 We left the Kansas City area and went to the Lake of
21:03 the Ozarks region in Missouri.
21:05 We bought a little two-bedroom cabin on an acre of
21:07 ground on the Lake and settled ourselves in.
21:10 We were so focused in our own lives that we weren't
21:13 really focused on God at all until tragedy struck
21:17 for our own family.
21:18 Our oldest daughter was stricken with ovarian cancer.
21:21 She was 17. - 17, that is so young.
21:25 Yes and they did a complete hysterectomy and then found
21:29 a second tumor against her spine and a third in her neck.
21:32 They began chemotherapy to try to kill the cancer
21:35 before it killed her but they didn't give us any
21:38 hope for her survival.
21:39 You know Joy, I don't even know how I would handle
21:43 something like that, because I have one child and
21:47 I think I am so blessed that nothing has happened to her
21:51 and I think how do you handle when you were told that she
21:54 had cancer, emotionally did you go numb?
21:58 What were you supposed to do?
22:00 Pretty much shocked at first, we didn't want to accept it
22:03 and had several weeks to finally come to grips and go
22:07 to the hospital every other day and spend time with her.
22:10 The hospital was 100 miles away so we couldn't get there
22:14 everyday, but to see the progress as she diminish before
22:18 our eyes and knew that the life was draining out of her
22:22 and we were helpless to stop the flow.
22:24 So day by day you come to accept the fact that you are
22:29 probably going to lose one of your children.
22:31 So we began to cling to the four healthy ones to try
22:34 and gain the strength that we needed to do with the fact
22:37 that we were going to lose Stephanie.
22:40 - I can't imagine, I just can't imagine.
22:42 Then I know that during that time is when your whole
22:47 life was rocked even more so than that. - right!
22:51 In one night we left our four healthy children to go
22:56 out for the evening.
22:57 We went to play bingo at the American Legion and we left
23:00 four healthy children home alone.
23:02 Steve was 14, Greg was 12, Tonya was 3 and Stacy was 17
23:07 months and while we were gone a 14-year-old neighbor boy
23:13 came in and shot and killed all four of them.
23:15 I can't, how, how did you come home?
23:23 You must've came home to chaos?
23:26 We came home to police cars and ambulances, what we didn't
23:30 know was that Stephanie had called a friend of hers,
23:32 the one in the hospital and said I can come home for the
23:35 weekend, we didn't have a telephone so she had asked her
23:38 friend to please go to her house and tell dad I can come
23:41 home for the weekend, come early in the morning.
23:44 This Thursday night, Debbie pulled into the driveway.
23:47 She is the one that discovered the kids, so by the time
23:51 we got home, police cars and ambulances were everywhere
23:54 and they would not let us in.
23:56 We were actually taken to the police station that night
23:59 and endured six hours - they wouldn't let you in the
24:02 household or let you come near?
24:03 I was never in my house ever again, I was never allowed
24:06 in again, but we were put in a patrol car and taken to
24:09 the police station and endured seven hours of
24:12 interrogations, strip searches because we were the
24:17 suspects in the murders.
24:19 So you are trying to adjust in your head what happened.
24:22 Right! - I need to go see my children and
24:25 they're asking you questions.
24:27 I needed to see the kids to face the reality.
24:29 I am a person that needs to get things done, George just
24:33 went into shock immediately, basically shut down.
24:37 I needed to get things done, I needed to go into the
24:40 house, I needed to make sure my kids were okay.
24:42 I needed to see the bodies to accept the reality and
24:45 I was not given that option.
24:47 Instead I was pulled away and everything I needed for
24:51 my healing to accept and begin to heal right away
24:54 was taken away from me.
24:57 I can even imagine how I would take my next breath.
25:01 How do you take your next breath? How do you, for one,
25:05 convince somebody I didn't do it?
25:07 What, are you crazy?
25:09 While my husband was a police officer so he knew what
25:12 was going on, I was quite defiant.
25:15 I was a rebellious teen when I was a kid so that came out.
25:19 I was quite defiant during the interrogations, I knew
25:22 I hadn't done it and resented that I couldn't get back to
25:24 the House and be with the kids when they brought them out.
25:28 So it was the anger that kept me strong, I determined that
25:31 I would stay angry so that my strength would be strong
25:35 enough to keep me on my feet.
25:37 So it was that anger that kept me strong
25:41 during that first day.
25:43 I am never at a loss for words and I feel absolutely
25:48 at a loss for words, I don't even know, I can't imagine
25:54 what your next steps are I can't imagine even what you said to
25:58 your husband when he said to you, how does anybody step
26:03 out and say okay now what happened?
26:05 You had to find out what happened, how did they find
26:09 out that it was this kid?
26:11 They had gone to the junior high school to interview
26:15 students that went to school our boys and in doing so
26:18 there were two 8th-grade boys came forward and said
26:21 we know who did it?
26:22 He has been bragging for two weeks about how he plans
26:25 to kill the Swift family and was quoted this morning
26:27 at school saying I can't wait to open fire on them.
26:31 They gave his name Billy Dyer, so the police went to
26:35 his house to take him into custody.
26:37 He had also mentioned that there was an older guy named
26:40 Ray that was going to help him.
26:42 When the police went to Billy's house to take him into
26:45 custody, a 20-year-old name Ray Richardson Jr. was there,
26:48 so they took him in for questioning as well.
26:50 So did they find out why was it that he had this vendetta
26:53 why was it that he had focused on your family?
26:56 Well it would be a long, long time before
26:59 we found that out.
27:00 We found out it was Billy Dyer, it was hard for me.
27:02 - because it was your neighbor.
27:04 He was my neighbor and I knew he was troubled teen and
27:06 I vowed that I would be the person that would be there
27:09 for him, I would listen to him.
27:10 He spent the night at our house, we took him to the
27:13 movies with the boys just the night before he came to
27:16 kill the kids but since George and I was not going out
27:19 he asked if the boys could go to the movies and
27:22 I took three boys to the movies and then he came in to
27:25 kill the kids the next day.
27:26 He had come at least four times that we know of to kill
27:30 the kids but if George and I were home he would call it
27:33 off until another time.
27:35 But we found out later he had a juvenile record in two
27:38 states, he had tried to kill 2 thirteen-year-old boys
27:41 the year before with a poisoned blowgun.
27:44 While he was in jail awaiting trial charged with four
27:46 counts of capital murder in the death of our children
27:50 he tried to electrocute a guard and poison an inmate.
27:54 So we found out many years later, when he was being
27:58 interviewed by a reporter, he said I once saw George
28:01 wake up Greg just tell him that he loved him.
28:04 I was jealous because the family materially didn't
28:07 have anything, but they had love.
28:10 And my family didn't have that and I wanted to take
28:12 it away from them.
28:14 So that is why he wanted to kill them.
28:16 His original plan was to kill the kids, stay in the
28:19 house, wait and ambush George and I and kill us.
28:22 Burn the house down and go on a killing spree with a
28:26 whole bunch of people until he got caught.
28:28 And possibly kill himself?
28:30 I don't think he ever talked about killing himself.
28:33 That wasn't there for him.
28:36 With finding those kind of things out, with having not
28:42 only the shock of having this horrible thing happened to
28:46 your family but somebody you know, somebody that was in
28:50 your home, and in your life, that has got to be,
28:54 were you torn emotionally in ever single direction?
28:57 It was a betrayal, it was an absolute betrayal because
29:00 while all the other neighbors didn't trust Billy, even
29:03 George wanted to keep him away, I saw a kid that needed
29:06 somebody to care and if I gave him something to live up
29:10 to he would live up to it.
29:12 I thought that my family would be a positive influence
29:14 on Billy and instead he repaid my kindness.
29:17 As soon as I found out it was Billy that killed the kids
29:21 instead of being angry I felt betrayal because I had
29:25 really cared about him. - and still did. - still did.
29:29 And I still do.
29:30 To me I can still see that in your eyes is that you know
29:33 I wanted you to succeed. - yeah I truly did.
29:36 I welcomed him into my home and into my heart.
29:39 How did you get to a point where you could actually,
29:43 remember I talked about Chris where she was in the garage
29:46 saying I'm going to kill myself, I cannot do this.
29:49 Did you or feel that way, that I cannot survive this?
29:52 Within 24 hours of losing the kids I was in a motel room
29:55 and finally broke down and realized that my strength and
29:59 my anger was not enough, I could not do this.
30:02 So for the first time in my life I called out to God.
30:06 I told Him I was not strong enough to handle this.
30:10 I could not do this. - this is not something I can do.
30:13 No and He promised to give me His strength.
30:16 It was in that room that a voice came to me and He said
30:20 you have not lost them, you are only separated from them
30:23 for a little while.
30:25 The answers you seek I will show you, it has all been
30:27 taking care of, it has all been written down.
30:30 So I knew my answers were in the Bible, but then I had
30:34 to from that point on start searching it to try to find
30:37 the answers that would answer it has all
30:42 been taken care of.
30:43 Even with that voice and hearing God, I believe God moves
30:48 in during those times when we beg Him that I can't do
30:52 this and hearing Him say you will see them again,
30:56 this is not over and hearing that.
30:58 But you didn't have a Bible, you didn't have
31:01 a relationship. - no foundation at all!
31:03 I really didn't, the only foundation I had was that God
31:06 was suppose to be all loving and merciful and as such He could
31:10 not have possibly want my kids to die this way.
31:12 So I never blamed Him but I couldn't accept the reality
31:17 and my cleric personality said no this cannot be the end.
31:21 I cannot accept this as the final into this thing.
31:29 I've got to have my kids back.
31:30 Thus began the search to find out how
31:34 I could get my kids back.
31:36 Tell us a little bit about the search, because that is
31:40 amazing to me, did you end up finding somebody to teach
31:44 you? Did you just go out and grab the Word of God?
31:46 I ask questions of everybody I could think of.
31:49 I tried to find them in the Bible, but like every other
31:52 book I have read I started on page 1 and I wasn't finding
31:56 it, asked ministers, pastors, priests, friends, everybody
32:00 had a different answer and it was not coming together.
32:04 It was actually my little sister who was also searching
32:07 for the same answers and she started Bible study through
32:11 Voice of Prophecy and she found the answers that I had
32:14 been looking for.
32:16 She came in shared those answers with me and
32:18 I started those same Bible studies guides and the answers
32:21 were there. It opened up the Bible to were it showed me
32:24 where the answers were in the Scriptures and it all came
32:28 together and I had a full picture.
32:30 So I'm going to ask you to share some of those because
32:33 one of those things that Chris had to find, the same as
32:37 you, where is my son? What is going to happen?
32:41 Tell us about how you found that, what that did for you?
32:44 So many people have different answers.
32:48 My mom was into reincarnation and the priest tells me
32:51 that Tonya and Stacy are in limbo because I didn't have
32:54 them baptized and I didn't know who in the world
32:57 took care of them there.
32:58 Greg, Steven and Stephen's death Stephanie died of cancer
33:01 20 days after the murders of the other four
33:03 so we lost all five.
33:06 So they are telling me, Steven, Stephen and Greg are in
33:09 heaven but Tonya and Stacy are in limbo and I did know
33:12 who took care of them there and I was really counting on
33:15 the three older ones to take care of the little ones
33:17 because I didn't know God well enough to know to trust that
33:21 He could take care of them for me.
33:24 So is the answers began to come together and I realized
33:27 the living know they shall die but the dead know not
33:31 anything, they were simply a sleep in the grave and
33:34 that Jesus was coming back to take us home.
33:37 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 are the most precious verses
33:42 in the world.
33:44 When they were pointed out to me I have clung to those
33:47 as my hope because it says, "for the Lord Himself shall
33:50 "descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an
33:53 "arch Angel and the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ
33:57 "shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain
34:00 "shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to
34:04 "meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the
34:08 "Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. "
34:11 That became my comfort and my hope, that is how
34:16 He had taken care of it,
34:17 He was coming back in the clouds and He had promised me
34:20 we would be together again and I finally understood what
34:22 that meant and how it was going to take place.
34:25 - You will survive with that. - I will make it.
34:27 Of course if someone had told me 30 years ago I would
34:30 still be waiting, I think I probably would have just died.
34:33 But through this journey, and learning to trust in God
34:37 an admittedly I first came to God with an alterative
34:40 motive, I want the kids back.
34:42 I love my kids, I don't really know you God, I love my
34:47 kids and I need to be with my kids and I will jump through
34:49 whatever hoop it will takes.
34:51 As I began my journey I fell in love with God.
34:55 I fell in love with my Savior and now I want to go and
34:58 be a part of that kingdom and I want to be a victory in
35:02 His kingdom because of Him, my relationship with Him.
35:05 And the added blessing is the reuniting with your children.
35:09 Absolutely, absolutely I can't wait to introduce you to
35:13 them. - you know, when you said that I wanted to jump
35:17 up and kiss you on the face.
35:18 You ended up, and for some people know this and some
35:23 people don't, but you ended up writing a book in your
35:27 own healing, They Are All Dead Aren't They?
35:29 As I came off the streets, a drug addict, illiterate,
35:35 trying to figure out how I was going to survive.
35:38 I got a hold of that book, somebody had given it to me.
35:41 I remember thinking I'm not going to survive my own
35:44 journey and I watched with God did in your life and it
35:48 gave me hope, it stood me up.
35:50 I thought if Joy could do this, if she could do that
35:53 with all this I am going to hold on to that same God
35:57 who stands me up. Oh He gets all the credit.
35:59 Oh man, Oh man, and I know that you eventually even
36:06 reached out to Billy.
36:09 It took a long time, as I began to study the Scriptures
36:13 and get this foundation and this hope and cleaning to the
36:17 promises that God has for us this issue of
36:20 forgiveness came up.
36:22 He said when you stand praying if you have anything
36:25 against anybody, forgive them.
36:27 For if you do not forgive them, your Father in heaven
36:30 can't forgive you.
36:31 You know when you said, even saying that I know for
36:34 a lot of people, even kids that have been molested
36:36 say how do I forgive?
36:37 People who have had some, it was hard for me when
36:42 I first heard your story it was hard for me to imagine
36:46 how I was going to forgive him, and it wasn't my tragedy.
36:50 So when some body is hit, slammed with something when
36:54 you first hear that is there any part of you that
36:57 says it is even possible?
36:59 I don't think that human level it is possible, in fact
37:02 if we try to forgive on the human level than we look at
37:06 the person has basically a namby-pamby person that
37:09 obviously doesn't have any feelings, that is not me.
37:12 I'm this angry go-getter choleric kind of person
37:15 that has to solve problems.
37:17 - you took my children. - right, you betrayed me
37:20 and I never did anything to hurt you.
37:21 You had no motive whatsoever and I flat could not
37:25 in fact I dreamed of getting into the cell and I did not
37:28 want a gun, I wanted a chain to beat him to death.
37:32 That was my justice and so as I began to deal with it and
37:36 I began to grow spiritually it was actually finding out
37:40 what prison ministries was doing and the fact that there
37:44 were actually inmates had truly been transformed,
37:48 truly converted to Christ and they really were sorry
37:51 for what they had done.
37:53 That made me start thinking is Billy sorry?
37:57 Is Billy sorry for what he did?
37:59 Even if he is he can't change what happened, he cannot
38:03 bring the kids back and so even life in prison is actually
38:07 fugal because it isn't going to atone for what he did.
38:10 So it got back down to that hopeless, what point is that
38:14 whether he is sorry you're not?
38:15 But this forgiveness issue kept getting thrown back into
38:18 my path, God does that because He's building our
38:21 characters, He's prepared a place for us and the
38:24 Holy Spirit is preparing us for the place.
38:26 He wants free of all that. - He does.
38:28 While I looked at it as some thing I had to do and I didn't
38:33 want to do, when I began to see the full big picture,
38:37 I realize this forgiveness was actually a gift for me.
38:41 I realize that as a parent, as much as I love each of
38:44 my kids there isn't anything that my kids could do that
38:47 would ever make me stop loving them.
38:49 I may hate what they do but I will always love my kids.
38:53 When I realize that if I am a human state can feel that
38:56 way, how much more does God feel about His kids?
38:59 - exactly every one of them.
39:01 God's kids pull that trigger that night and He hated
39:04 what they did, but He didn't hate them.
39:07 Christ died on the cross for them too and it was all
39:11 taken care of for them too.
39:14 So that is what made it turnaround, if they are His kids
39:18 and I am His daughter, then we are brothers and sisters
39:21 in Christ and there is no room for sibling rivalry in
39:25 God's world, so I had to love my brother in Christ
39:29 as much as God loves me.
39:31 So finally after 11 years I went to the prison.
39:35 - did you say even God You have to pour that into me?
39:38 Oh I did, I finally dropped to my knees and said You
39:42 will have to give me a perspective that I can
39:44 understand because I can't do this.
39:46 The lessons just kept getting thrown in my path to where
39:50 I could no longer dodge it, I had to confront the issue.
39:54 It became a part of who you are.
39:55 Not what you did but it was who you are.
39:58 What happen when you came down to see him?
40:00 Basically I told him that I hated what he did, I would
40:05 always hate what he did, but I didn't hate him.
40:08 That God loved him and wanted him in the kingdom and if
40:10 God wanted him in the kingdom so did I.
40:12 I would wept, how did he respond?
40:15 I think it really confused him more than anything.
40:18 He really didn't know what to say, and I left him a copy
40:21 of my book, They Are All Dead Aren't They?
40:23 I wanted him to know how serious this was and what the
40:27 impact was of this crime.
40:29 That this choice to forgive him had not been a light
40:34 and easy thing to do at all.
40:35 It had taken me 11 years to get here and in fact
40:38 I wouldn't even have talked about it for
40:40 a full year afterwards.
40:41 I did want people to think I was as incredible person
40:44 because I was so able to go and forgive him.
40:49 Even putting myself in his place, being able to say for
40:54 you to go in and for him to look at you in the face,
40:59 I can't even imagine any of that.
41:00 I can't even imagine when you first walk in and saw him,
41:04 was there any thing, did God change you by that time
41:07 that you literally could look at him and love?
41:10 I definitely could, more than anything and I even told him
41:14 this that I knew I was going to be with my children again
41:18 someday, I had that absolute assurance.
41:20 But more than anything in the world when Jesus comes in
41:23 the clouds, I want to look over and see him and Ray coming
41:26 to because I will know that nobody was lost in this
41:30 tragedy, that every one of us was one.
41:33 Satan didn't win here! - exactly, he is the only one
41:36 we want to lose in this whole battle.
41:39 You know you guys have been listening to this story,
41:42 and you've heard what Joy had to say, and I had
41:46 to say about faith and acceptance.
41:48 Accepting the fact that God, I have a process that God
41:52 is going to restore me after I'd been hit with this.
41:55 Does anyone want to ask her anything?
41:57 Marcia do you have a question?
41:58 Well yes joy, if you have forgiven him do you wish him
42:02 to remain in prison?
42:04 That is something I have struggled with for a long time
42:07 because before I forgave him I knew beyond a shadow of a
42:10 doubt I wanted him to stay in prison.
42:11 I wanted him to serve the consequences of his time and
42:14 my heart was still very, very confused.
42:17 I didn't know how to feel about Billy.
42:19 After I really studied out this whole issue of forgiveness,
42:23 and after I went to forgive him,
42:25 he wrote a letter and said that he was sorry for what
42:29 he had done and he offered
42:30 to close his profile indefinitely if that would help
42:33 George and I to heal.
42:34 I wrote back to him and told him I doubt it that I would
42:38 ever be ready for his release and if he was truly sorry
42:42 for what he did he would not seek
42:44 an early release from prison walls.
42:47 Rather he would seek the one would someday come to
42:50 release us all, I wait my own prison for that day.
42:53 Well at the time I didn't realize that it could be
42:56 released for my own prison and quit being a victim
42:58 and start being a victor instead.
43:00 But that was the answer at the time, but the one
43:03 thing that I've come to realize is that I do fight his
43:05 release, but parole board doesn't want him out.
43:08 They still consider him to be a threat to society and
43:12 they do believe because he's been in prison since
43:15 he was 15 years old, it is the only life that he knows.
43:19 There is a concern that he has been institutionalized,
43:22 he admits it himself, he is afraid to get out and
43:24 he doesn't know how to function in the outside world.
43:27 He could very well commit another crime
43:29 just to get back in.
43:30 But from a scriptural standpoint, if I forgive him
43:34 should I fling the doors open and say no
43:36 you have done your time.
43:38 And what I came to realize was that even though we seek
43:42 forgiveness and we gain forgiveness through Christ,
43:45 it does not relieve us of the consequences of our actions
43:49 here on this earth.
43:51 As Christ was hanging on the cross there were two thieves
43:54 were one either side of Him.
43:55 One sought forgiveness and Christ promised him the kingdom.
44:00 Yet Christ, the Savior hanging on the cross beside him,
44:05 did not relieve him of his cross.
44:08 He suffered the consequences of his sin on this earth.
44:12 He died on that cross and yet he has eternal life.
44:16 It is a promise that Christ gave him.
44:18 He will be resurrected. - absolutely and so
44:21 I can demand justice for the crime.
44:24 There are consequences to our actions and his consequence
44:28 is two life terms and that was a plea bargain.
44:32 The consequences of his actions for me is that I have to live
44:35 this life without my children and grandchildren they would
44:38 have had, he has altered history and I am the innocent
44:41 victim of that and so are my children.
44:44 They lost their lives.
44:45 Those are the consequences of the sin, but God can take
44:48 everything that is all wrong and make it all right again.
44:52 But we will only see that culmination in the last day.
44:57 That is an incredible way to look at all this mess.
45:02 To see that God has truly came in and brought healing
45:06 to everyone. Connie you have a question.
45:09 Yes, actually first I want to comment that really it is
45:12 such a blessing your testimony and how you are able to
45:16 help other people also.
45:18 Through going through what you have been through in the
45:20 way that you look at things and how you have clung to
45:24 Lord to get you through it, it is an amazing testimony
45:27 and I really appreciated it.
45:28 But my question is, in regard to your relationship with
45:32 your husband I am going to guess that throughout this
45:36 trauma it put quite a strain on it.
45:40 I know initially you said you know that your anger and
45:43 within their first 24 hours in search of answers in the
45:46 Bible, but initially you said he shut down.
45:49 So I'm wondering how did that play out in your relationship?
45:53 Well not knowing anything about grief recovery back then
45:56 because it was a completely foreign territory to me,
46:00 I didn't realize that our different personalities and our
46:03 genders and the losses that we experienced in our previous
46:06 actually affects how we grieve, so I had to begin to study that
46:13 out to understand why he doesn't grieve like me.
46:16 I realize we each have needs for our own healing and
46:20 we have got to exercise those things.
46:22 I needed to see the kids, that was something that was
46:26 important to me, I need to do things and he did not.
46:29 I needed to go to the prison and sit down
46:33 and talk to Billy, he did not.
46:35 There were things that I needed to do that he did not
46:38 need to do, he spent a lot of time at the funeral home,
46:41 at the grave sites that first year.
46:44 He would actually climb the fence at night when the gates
46:47 were closed and just go in and sit with the kids.
46:50 That's what he needed for his healing.
46:52 I went ahead of him because I need to get things done in
46:57 studying the Scriptures and he was way far behind, it was
47:01 like it almost felt like it first that at the beginning
47:04 of that search that Scriptures were trying to take
47:07 me away from him and he would lose again.
47:11 I was the only thing he had left, so he would lose
47:15 it all over again and it took quite a bit a time where
47:18 it took me five years to find these answers and put it
47:22 all together through prayer, it took 10 years for him.
47:25 You know I love the way you even start to introduce that
47:28 and then it is okay that every body has the their different
47:32 styles and to be able to give people permission to grieve.
47:36 How they need to grieve, I'm not going to come in and say
47:41 you have to grieve just like me, even though that's a
47:43 learned thing the acceptance that God is going to actually
47:47 come in and give you back a sense of joy in your life is
47:51 that takes a long time with this kind of tragedy.
47:53 It does. Are there any other questions?
47:56 I have a question, during the time period that
48:00 you were suffering, did you blame yourself because
48:05 the children were by themselves?
48:07 Did you begin to see yourself as a person that did the
48:14 wrong thing as a mom for leaving them alone?
48:17 Or for inviting this kid in the first place?
48:20 Well I found out many years later that guilt and blame
48:23 are two classic parts of grieving.
48:27 So even when there is no reason to feel guilty,
48:30 or to blame yourself you do it anyway.
48:32 In this particular situation George gone to the
48:37 hospital the night before to spend time with Stephanie
48:40 and I was left alone with the four healthy children.
48:43 There was an American Legion meeting that night,
48:46 a woman's auxiliary meeting and I wanted to go.
48:48 I was a member of the women's auxiliary, but something
48:52 inside of me said don't go and no sooner did that happen
48:56 and Billy was at the door and he had come to kill the
49:00 kids that night but because I was home he went back out
49:03 and told Ray I can't do the parents are home.
49:06 Why I did not have that feeling the second night,
49:09 I was the one that wanted to go play bingo.
49:11 We had not gone in three weeks since
49:13 Stephanie went to the hospital.
49:15 I'm the one that needed the night out and asked George
49:18 he was willing to go.
49:20 So yeah that guilt for leaving them, George was the
49:23 one that wanted to keep Billy away, nobody trusted him.
49:26 We lived in an area of Lake resorts and after the
49:31 children were killed one of the resort owners came up to
49:34 me and said, all of us were out that night, Thursday night is
49:37 the night to go out because when you run a resort you take
49:41 care of tourists on the weekend.
49:43 That lady told me, she said none of us would allow Billy
49:46 to come down to our resorts, we had all banned Billy from
49:50 our resorts, I was the only one that allowed
49:53 Billy in the house anymore.
49:55 I was the only one that wanted to be there for him and
49:58 trust him and my family became the target.
50:01 So yeah I blamed myself.
50:03 You know I want to say because we're running out of time,
50:06 like you had said is that what you have learned is that
50:09 blame is such a common part of this.
50:12 Even with no blame, even if you have done everything right
50:16 you will find things to hang a hook on.
50:20 If I would've thought this, if I would have said this,
50:22 if I would have done this and on.
50:24 And I think faith and acceptance is a big thing right now is
50:27 that God comes in and says let Me hold you because
50:30 you are going to have all those what if's, you're going
50:32 to want to scream, you're going to want to cry and you're
50:34 going to want to never forgive and I want to heal you of
50:38 all that because the bottom line is those are so toxic.
50:41 God comes in and pours into you healing.
50:44 Joy I have seen men in your life so much, and it has
50:47 helped and benefited thousands.
50:51 Your first book I think 80,000 copies were sold right away.
50:55 And those were people that needed you to say to them that
50:58 you will get through this.
50:59 So thank you so much, thank you for being on the show,
51:02 thank you for blessing us and thank you for being
51:04 my friend. - thank you.
51:06 We will be right back stay tuned.
51:16 Amazing stories, real people in real situations discussing
51:19 issues that really matter.
51:21 A complete first season of Celebrating Life In Recover is
51:24 now available on DVD and can be ordered by calling 3ABN
51:27 or online at 3ABN.org hosted by Cheri Peters.
51:31 This season follows principles of the book
51:34 'Steps to Christ'.
51:35 See for yourself how God changed the lives of the
51:37 convicted and the accused and victims of terrible crimes.
51:40 You won't want to miss a moment
51:42 of these powerful interviews.
51:48 We have talked about a lot of things on this show and
51:51 some of them, most of them have been incredibly serious,
51:56 tragic even, but I am so proud of God the way He... it doesn't
52:00 matter what is thrown at us, whether it is their own choices
52:04 or the things that we have gone out and done like
52:06 my own addiction or Lance Michael and his addiction,
52:09 God will work with the addict and get them
52:13 into a place of recovery.
52:15 With Chris when she started standing up on her own again
52:19 and she realized that she was going to have to recover
52:24 and turn to God, bring everything back to Him.
52:27 Every step God loved and nurtured her,
52:31 every step He helped her.
52:33 Every time she would ask a question, like you Joann,
52:36 she wanted to know what happened to my son and where is
52:39 he in all of those things as I watched God bring
52:42 healing into her life and I was so proud of her.
52:45 Lance Michael had told her at once point then I want
52:48 you mom to go until kids what happened to me.
52:51 She has been all over the world, she's been to Russia
52:54 with me, she's been to Thailand with me working with
52:57 street kids in the sex industry in Bangkok.
53:00 Working with heroine addicts in Russia and
53:03 throughout the United States.
53:05 There was one week, in a weeks time we talked to 250,000
53:09 kids, 250,000 kids and I know, I'm going to get back,
53:15 I know Joy, in my own recovery that your story helped me
53:20 to look at forgiveness in a way that
53:21 I had never looked at forgiveness.
53:23 I had such a difficult time even forgiving my parents for
53:27 not loving me and for being on the street and for the
53:30 rejection that I felt and all those kind of things.
53:33 I thought you know, I heard what you said in your own
53:36 book and in your own testimony is that God wants
53:39 to teach us to forgive so that we can actually heal.
53:43 So I could see on a scale that is bigger than me that
53:46 God is really wanting us to say these are all my kids
53:50 and Satan has thrown a wrench into the clog and
53:56 everything is getting jammed up, but I am God, I will
54:00 teach you to forgive and I will teach you how to heal.
54:03 Joy I want to thank you for that, I want to thank you for
54:06 putting it out there and I know it took 11 years in your
54:09 process of forgiveness, but because you shared that with
54:13 me through your book I was comforted like it says in
54:16 2 Corinthians about the comfort that you have given that
54:19 you got from God you comforted me with.
54:22 So I just want to have you share, you have a family now?
54:27 You have kids now?
54:28 Talk a little bit about that.
54:29 Well Sandy was born 11 months after we lost the other
54:32 kids, then we had another little boy Matthew and another
54:35 one Michael and they are two years apart.
54:38 They are all grown on their own now,
54:40 they are 24, 26 and 28.
54:43 And you are having grandbabies?
54:45 We are having grandbabies.
54:46 I have two grandsons Gabriel is 11 months old and
54:50 Devon is three months old and
54:53 they are an incredible blessing.
54:55 So God is bringing things back into your life in a huge
54:58 way. - yes He has, He has done incredible things in my
55:02 life and He gets all the credit.
55:04 He does and I am so blessed by you.
55:06 There are addictions that we bring into our lives that
55:10 we need to overcome.
55:12 We need to have a total make over, I love the fact that God
55:16 in His word said that in Psalms 51 and I would like to
55:20 read it because it is absolutely an amazing Psalms 51 says
55:24 "have mercy on me Oh God because of your unfailing love,
55:27 "because of the great compassion blot out the stain of my
55:31 "sin. Wash me clean from my guilt and purify me from sin
55:35 "far I recognize my rebellion, it haunts me day and night.
55:38 "Against you and you alone have I sinned. I have done wrong
55:42 "I have done evil in your sight. You will be proved right in what
55:47 "ever you say about me in whatever judgment you have about
55:50 "me will be right, for I was born a sinner, from the moment
55:53 "my mother conceived me, but you desire honesty from the
55:57 "womb teaching me wisdom even there. Purify me from my
56:00 "sins and I will be clean, wash me and I will be whiter
56:03 "than snow. Give me back my joy again. You have broken
56:07 "me now help me to rejoice and don't look too close at my
56:10 "sins. Remove the stain of my guilt and creating me a clean
56:14 "heart oh God and renew a loyal spirit within me. "
56:17 So create in me and make me new.
56:19 It's amazing, confess your addictions and junk to God,
56:23 your sin, God will forgive you and through the
56:25 Holy Spirit He will lead you into a new life.
56:28 It's a little harder when the things that have happened
56:32 to you, like Joy are not something that you brought into
56:36 your life, would never have asked for such a thing
56:38 but emotionally it has almost destroyed you.
56:41 God said confess, forgive, even forgive God Himself
56:45 and allow Him to restore life.
56:47 It is said in the 2 Corinthians 1:4 you will be comforted,
56:52 you'll comfort others by the comfort that God has given
56:56 you. Life is not always fair and the devil has really
57:00 tried to destroy folks and God is always, always good.
57:04 He will restore everything that has been taken from you,
57:08 everything that has physically, emotionally, spiritually
57:11 caused you such pain and will bring hope and
57:14 joy back into your life.
57:16 He has with Joy, He has with me, He has with Chris,
57:19 and He has with countless others.
57:21 Let Him bring healing into your life.
57:23 Next time on Celebrating Life In Recovery we are going to
57:27 be talking to a Vietnam vet who was destroyed by his anger
57:30 and was destroying other people.
57:33 He has actually come to God and said God, I can't go on.
57:38 I can't do this God has and is teaching him to give up his
57:43 rage, to give up his anger, all the emotional junk that
57:47 has been in his life.
57:49 God is turning all of that around and he is finding
57:52 recovery so join us you will be blessed.
57:55 I know you will, God bless, see you next time.